Very good writeup but I dont feel a bit sorry for them. They duped me out of my money, over 6 months ago, and I still have no game that is worth playing. And they are refusing to return my money.
The thing is I wouldnt mind Starvault and their efforts to create a sandbox game, actually I would commend them for trying to undertake the herculean task of creating a sandbox MMOG. However when they duped me out of 60€ for it, that is when they crossed the line. Basically what has happend is that they have charged full price for a game and then held on to those money for 6+ months without a possibility for refund.
That is borderline scam, in my book, and made them lose any kind of credibility when they are saying that they want to realise their "dream" or "vision". They are in it for the money, like any other MMOG developer, and are doing it using shady bussiness practices and in the process hurting the already damaged reputation of sandbox MMOGs.
Duped you out of 60 bucks? Now I've heard it all.
The only person who duped you was you, pre-odering anything is illogical, you do realize this right? Until there is proof something is worth your money, don't pay for it, is that so hard? Hell if you would have had patience you could have tried it for free, like everyone else who waited.
Nope instead you went and paid for something, when you had no clue whether it was worth it or not. Who is to blame for that? The company that said " hey we're offering pre-orders because no-one will fund us" ? Not to mention they also said they would be relasing with bascially nothing but the foundation of the game, because they couldn't afford to do much more. Yet you still gave them your money, now you want to cry scam? ROFL
Maybe I'm being a little harsh, sorry I just can't help it. This is why companies think they can get away with crap like this in the first place, there's always someone willing to fork over some cash for basically nothing.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
To the last response, simply -- "Can I code it better?"
My answer is -- probably. I don't know UnrealScript but if I took the time to learn it, it's principles are similar to programming something in basically any language. And that's a process I manage on a daily basis.
The other things, artwork, animations, level building, etc -- I would probably fail at miserably. And then the key component -- having a rich dad -- well, that kind of puts it out of my league. Right now I'm saving for a house, I have a kid with another on the way, and making an MMO isn't my specialty nor do I have the funding to do it.
But I do manage projects for a living -- enterprise systems that scale to more users currently, than MO is handling. Internally we services about 17,000 users, in addition to the external customers we have as well. Sadly, it's financial enterprise systems but in my world, it has to work from the beginning -- and the thought of throwing it all away and starting from scratch is a career ender. That's why I'm well paid to do what I do, and I'm actively recruited by other firms on a regular basis.
Money for this game however, is not the reason I'm annoyed at the situation. It's the fact that they wouldn't refund my money -- when I had no product. I did however, get my box in the mail, but that was about 4 months after I asked for the refund. It's the principle of the matter.
The CEO was right about one thing -- nobody will want to create THIS game. Because *this* game is a horribly designed and even more poorly executed piece of software that has no business plan and no potential for retention, adaptation, and growth. When barely 50 people are online (after the server gets rebooted or crashes), it can *barely* handle that load. And people think a few days with Epic will solve what I believe to be core design problems... they are sorely mistaken. What they are doing now, is like taking a webpage that was written in HTML4.0, and trying to adopt it into HTML5. It will take a *lot* of work, and more than a month will provide them for. Because that "webpage" is humungous, and making it work with all the NEW features of HTML5 is going to take a LONG time to work. And that's not on just one level -- they are upgrading not only their network solution to a newer version, they are upgrading their GAME ENGINE TOO.
The things you listed that MO has going against it are kind of pointless, to be honest -- a good business plan can take features that may not work in the "average" MMO and make them work in a niche one. EVE did it successfully, but they were lucky they started in an era where the competition was much lower than it is now. They also started out a LOT smaller than MO is currently trying to be. The problem is, since they didn't bother to consider the business part of the game, the entire design is basically "I liked this in UO, let's put it in!" as their entire design philosophy. This is due mostly, to immaturity and inexperience. Where else can you go on the web where you find developers actively arguing with forum members, trying to insult them and acting like children? Nowhere else but in MO.
Sadly, the reason MO fails is *not* because of the quality of the code, or the programmers. The reason they are failing now, and will continue to -- is because of their management. When you have somebody who was 'gifted' the entire business because his dad gave him cash to start it, you don't have somebody who worked their way up through the years to understand every facet of business and how to mitigate gains and losses of cash, and to ensure service reliability and account retention -- especially in a online service that they are offering.
If you want SV to be successful, some "uber" hardcore things HAVE to be cut. Theiving may be one for now, until they come up with a system that isn't so imbalanced. Why? Because this is a BUSINESS FIRST, and people will quit if they find themselves continually harassed by thieves -- and that means a loss of revenue. Sure, that may not be "hardcore" enough for a lot of folks here -- and god knows, I loved thievery in UO -- but these systems are a detractor from account retention. There has to be a dividing line, and a core design that looks at both the competitive nature of the game, includes "sandbox" elements that they want, but also keeps players playing and coming back every time.
In MO, there's nothing to "come back for" that isn't better in Darkfall. And that game sucks too.
The real question is not if you can do it, but rather if you would do it. The answer would probably be a no, because no sane person would start a project like this under these circumstances.
I think that you are exaggerating, there are not switching to a new iteration of the engine, just a minor version bump as in HTML4 > HTML4.1.
Regarding the management, yeah... what can I say, Henrik is a decent individual but his management skills are rather poor. He has shown numerous times that he lacks any kind of planning skills. It seems like he makes decisions on the fly.
Unfortunately for SV, this is a case of "damned if we do, damned if we don't".
I have maintained all along about SV, that they were not really capable of producing a title of this magntitude. Others who have used the Atlas technology, and Unreal technology, have opted for instance based games. And these are developers who have some previous experience too.
Part of the problem of using a great technology is not only in knowing how to use it, but also how to write your product in a way that is optimal. I think personally, that this is the problem with MO right now. They didn't think much about the technology and just built the game using the tools -- and as a result, the 10 hitboxes, the data that's coming back and forth, the bad placement of client-side data (making the game super easy to hack), etc.... shows all poor design choices due to a lack of knowledge. Any experienced team wouldn't make these decisions, they would make differently bad decisions -- like a bad feature, or a boring game. Kinda like Darkfall.
Let's take a step back for a minute here. Go through history with SV and figure out what the problem is, logically. They didn't have beta forums, or a method on how to provide beta forums. A forum member had to come up with the script they are using in order to migrate people into beta forums. Their online store isn't managed by them -- it's a third party because they don't have the expertise to manage their own account information. Their patcher didn't work from the beginning, and despite many comments about it -- they opted to just adopt a 'fan' creation for their production patcher. And that still doesn't work.
Now looking at all the oversights we actually *know* about, and now we look at the desync issues, the crashing, the memory leaks, the invisible walls, the getting stuck in the middle of the world, the magically teleporting pets and MORE -- what are we to conclude? StarVault can send their guys over to the US, but I've not really heard of this before. It may be another line of BS -- and I wouldn't put it past them, as this is the health of their project is in jeopardy. Oddly enough, it is Epic China that created the network solution, so why is SV flying out to the US, when the support team is in China?
Again, damned if they do, damned if they don't. I think at this point the community is "demanding" answers, as many people who paid for the game already can't really play. So the master plan is to send their devs to Epic, hoping that something more is going to happen that they couldn't figure out over the phone or through teleconference. And yes, Epic, like any other major studio, provides WebEx access and works the problem remotely as if they were RIGHT THERE.
Migrating their code to a 'newer engine' is something funny too -- historically it's shown not to work either. What's the best example I can give you? Anybody know Duke Nukem Forever? It went on FOREVER, because they tried to migrate to the "newer engine" multiple times. Similarly, with Daikatana they did the same thing (for those of you who know the dumbass that is John Romero). But if they want to migrate their codebase into a new engine and expect it to work BETTER in the timespan of a month, or maybe even 3 -- let's say they were working on it since January -- you guys are in for a rude awakening.
Oddly enough, during the whole time the community has shown their want to "wait 6 more months", as if it would make a huge difference. I remember when release was in December, people said "6 more months!" It's March now, and they are still saying "6 more months!". Do the math folks -- you should have been saying "10 more months" back in December, because that's about what it's going to be by the time it releases. The point is, that the 6 months are arbitrary and really just equates to "this game is nowhere near completion", and the 6 months are just a revolving timeframe that keep moving up as the months click by. You'll see, next month when the game is coming out for release again, the community will say the same thing -- 6 more months -- as if it will make a difference.
And in the end, as I said -- SV is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. Unfortunately, by taking on a task of the magnititude they envisioned, and not having the necessary experience to pull it off -- they put themselves in this position. Nobody else did it for them, and their promises from last year that included things like siege weapons, herbalism, epic monsters, etc -- have yet to show up in their build. They were great at producing hype, using scripted trailers, leaking information into IRC and then saying "it's Unofficial" but continuing to stroke those things as time went by, and making a very broad statement that has all the fans saying "well they are giving what they promised us!", whereby "promised us" equates to "basic" systems throughout the game.
I can't say I feel sorry for them, but as I've sat on the sidelines for months watching, it's provided a great source of entertainment and irony, and all the steps that Mourning took, that Dark and Light took, SV seems to be taking a step further. And while I could be wrong about all of this, my guesses are as listed above -- it will be interesting to see if the history of this MMO will be one for the wall of shame, and we all look back and sigh as the "next big thing" comes out with promises like SV made. At least we'll hopefully have wisened up about our expectations, about the relevance of developer experience, and about the ambitious nature of MMOs, ESPECIALLY from indy studios.
This must be your masterpiece... A culmination of everything you have put on these forums.
Half of it is rumor, and the other half is misinterpretation of posts by SV. (Migrating to a newer engine? Really?)
It is not worth discussing.
I will start another lesson for you though...
Who out there, in the entire world, will make a sandbox game similar to MO? Everyone has a few on their mind... some are already released, others are still in Beta. But how many compared to the rest of the industry?
You speak of experience, programming skill, and industry standards... but how many companies with the experience are trying to release a Sandbox MMO? How many people with the programming skill are even working on a project, much less an MMORPG? What good are industry standards when no one in the industry will attempt a game like this?
Your critique and complaints might have valid points... but you are ridiculing the individuals who are trying to DO something about it. Do you even see that? Everyone here wants to get across a river... and when someone comes to build a bridge... you decide to belittle them because you knew someone who could do it better. Well... why don't you go get them?
You want a good Sandbox MMO... yet out of the whole world a few people pick up different projects... and you decide to mock their methods, efforts, and attempts.
Why? Because it doesn't fit your standards?
Hey... I have some information for you... apparently none of the MMOs out there are fitting your standards because you are STILL HERE.
The people who developed UO are no longer around... and the individuals with the knowledge and know-how on "Sandbox MMO Development" are... guess what... not working on Sandbox MMOs.
They are working on Themepark MMOs like Warcraft, Aion, or SWtoR to feed their families and send their kids to college. Individuals with the ability, knowledge, and experience are not using it. Undoubtedly some hate their current projects, but don't want to risk working on something that might not help them provide for themselves or their families.
I don't blame them... but I am certainly not going to kick the individuals who come after them that try to fill their shoes. I'm not going to push them away from making something WE ALL WANT regardless of how much "better it could have been".
Things could always have been better... that is a safe argument for anyone to make if they don't want to appear stupid. Until somebody does something... mistakes and all... you will never get what you want. Every Indy developer that comes along might fail, or not produce a product the larger companies are capable of doing... but without them we won't see a sandbox MMORPG for decades.
You fight for the perfect project or you demand there be nothing at all.
You should be fighting for something just a little bit better than what we currently have now.
It's not worth discussing, but you spent half a page discussing it. Gotcha.
Building a game isn't the equivalent of building "indy music". You can't sit in your garage and come up with something miraculous in programming and game design if you've never done it before. And therein lies the problem -- lies.
Lies, you say? Yes, lies. Henrik had touted his "previous work on MMOs" as a point to his experience. We know now that this was totally untrue. He touted features that were never going to make release, ideas that weren't even wholly developed, and enticing teaser videos to showcase a product that had barely started development. Sure, I bought into the hype, I liked the ideas on paper, and I wanted to play the next UO. Not only is MO *not* the next UO, it's not even playable. And that in a nutshell, is why I'm still here. If SV had refunded my money, my interest in this game would have waned a LONG time ago. But they decided to keep my money -- and with that, they kept my attention, and got my criticism.
The problem here lies not with the idea that they are making a sandbox MMO -- I can applaud them for trying. The problem is that they have no business plan for the game, at ALL. Most people agree on this point too. You can make something in a niche market profitable, it's just not easy and has to be planned out meticulously. The easier road is to make a mainstream product like WOW, but with the crowded nature of that market, niche products are a great idea too.
Really, your second to last line says it all for ME -- you should fight for the perfect project -- and I agree. And I have pointed out time and time again where the problems in MO lie, what could be done to rectify it, and how it could be done. Heck, I even gave them code to start on making a patching software that would work properly. They don't have the ABILITY to make that perfect project, and while I can commend you on cheering them on for trying, I personally think they are trying to push a half baked product to a overly excited crowd, only to let them down because they didn't push for the "fight" to get a better product.
If you accept garbage, you will be given garbage. And MO sad to say, is falling right into that description.
not even playable BS alot of people can play it lil annoying at times but yea
I've been commenting on the similarities between whats going on with MO and Mourning for more than a few months now and getting absolutely ripped apart for it.
In SV's defense, I think their issues are more from inexperience than pure malice as seemed to be the case with Mourning/Realms of Torment. Although, as the pressure builds on SV, many of their moves and comments are straight out of the RoT/Mourning playbook.
Kinda funny that MO is right above Mourning in the game forums list.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
The only person who duped you was you, pre-odering anything is illogical, you do realize this right? Until there is proof something is worth your money, don't pay for it, is that so hard? Hell if you would have had patience you could have tried it for free, like everyone else who waited.
Nope instead you went and paid for something, when you had no clue whether it was worth it or not. Who is to blame for that? The company that said " hey we're offering pre-orders because no-one will fund us" ? Not to mention they also said they would be relasing with bascially nothing but the foundation of the game, because they couldn't afford to do much more. Yet you still gave them your money, now you want to cry scam? ROFL
The company hinted strongly that demand would outstrip supply and even went so far as to claim that you could guarantee being able to play the game one day one by pre-ordering. Now as we know (hindsight) that was a crock of shit.. as a matter of fact demand was so low that they are still selling their "limited" supply of boxes and still taking orders for the game.. in April of 2010.. almost 9 months after sales started.
Unfortunately for SV, this is a case of "damned if we do, damned if we don't".
I have maintained all along about SV, that they were not really capable of producing a title of this magntitude. Others who have used the Atlas technology, and Unreal technology, have opted for instance based games. And these are developers who have some previous experience too.
Part of the problem of using a great technology is not only in knowing how to use it, but also how to write your product in a way that is optimal. I think personally, that this is the problem with MO right now. They didn't think much about the technology and just built the game using the tools -- and as a result, the 10 hitboxes, the data that's coming back and forth, the bad placement of client-side data (making the game super easy to hack), etc.... shows all poor design choices due to a lack of knowledge. Any experienced team wouldn't make these decisions, they would make differently bad decisions -- like a bad feature, or a boring game. Kinda like Darkfall.
Let's take a step back for a minute here. Go through history with SV and figure out what the problem is, logically. They didn't have beta forums, or a method on how to provide beta forums. A forum member had to come up with the script they are using in order to migrate people into beta forums. Their online store isn't managed by them -- it's a third party because they don't have the expertise to manage their own account information. Their patcher didn't work from the beginning, and despite many comments about it -- they opted to just adopt a 'fan' creation for their production patcher. And that still doesn't work.
Now looking at all the oversights we actually *know* about, and now we look at the desync issues, the crashing, the memory leaks, the invisible walls, the getting stuck in the middle of the world, the magically teleporting pets and MORE -- what are we to conclude? StarVault can send their guys over to the US, but I've not really heard of this before. It may be another line of BS -- and I wouldn't put it past them, as this is the health of their project is in jeopardy. Oddly enough, it is Epic China that created the network solution, so why is SV flying out to the US, when the support team is in China?
Again, damned if they do, damned if they don't. I think at this point the community is "demanding" answers, as many people who paid for the game already can't really play. So the master plan is to send their devs to Epic, hoping that something more is going to happen that they couldn't figure out over the phone or through teleconference. And yes, Epic, like any other major studio, provides WebEx access and works the problem remotely as if they were RIGHT THERE.
Migrating their code to a 'newer engine' is something funny too -- historically it's shown not to work either. What's the best example I can give you? Anybody know Duke Nukem Forever? It went on FOREVER, because they tried to migrate to the "newer engine" multiple times. Similarly, with Daikatana they did the same thing (for those of you who know the dumbass that is John Romero). But if they want to migrate their codebase into a new engine and expect it to work BETTER in the timespan of a month, or maybe even 3 -- let's say they were working on it since January -- you guys are in for a rude awakening.
Oddly enough, during the whole time the community has shown their want to "wait 6 more months", as if it would make a huge difference. I remember when release was in December, people said "6 more months!" It's March now, and they are still saying "6 more months!". Do the math folks -- you should have been saying "10 more months" back in December, because that's about what it's going to be by the time it releases. The point is, that the 6 months are arbitrary and really just equates to "this game is nowhere near completion", and the 6 months are just a revolving timeframe that keep moving up as the months click by. You'll see, next month when the game is coming out for release again, the community will say the same thing -- 6 more months -- as if it will make a difference.
And in the end, as I said -- SV is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. Unfortunately, by taking on a task of the magnititude they envisioned, and not having the necessary experience to pull it off -- they put themselves in this position. Nobody else did it for them, and their promises from last year that included things like siege weapons, herbalism, epic monsters, etc -- have yet to show up in their build. They were great at producing hype, using scripted trailers, leaking information into IRC and then saying "it's Unofficial" but continuing to stroke those things as time went by, and making a very broad statement that has all the fans saying "well they are giving what they promised us!", whereby "promised us" equates to "basic" systems throughout the game.
I can't say I feel sorry for them, but as I've sat on the sidelines for months watching, it's provided a great source of entertainment and irony, and all the steps that Mourning took, that Dark and Light took, SV seems to be taking a step further. And while I could be wrong about all of this, my guesses are as listed above -- it will be interesting to see if the history of this MMO will be one for the wall of shame, and we all look back and sigh as the "next big thing" comes out with promises like SV made. At least we'll hopefully have wisened up about our expectations, about the relevance of developer experience, and about the ambitious nature of MMOs, ESPECIALLY from indy studios.
Time will tell.
this is all normal in mmos.
whats the difference? lol, mortal online is not going anywhere? and they are the first, trying atlas and unreal in a non instanced world.
the devs at dark adn light and no where near as good as the devs from mortal online.
dark and light failed from the inside.
mortal online only ploblem is its server and stablity ploblems and bugs, BUT THATS BECAUSE ITS A BETA,
YEP EVERYONE MORTAL ONLINE IS GOING TO ROCK THE WORLD WHEN IT RELEASES.
Silly me. From the title, I was thinking that this thread would be about the fact that the vocal critics would criticise them for releasing an unfinished product if Starvault did release this month and would say they couldn't get their act together if they didn't release.
"I have maintained all along about SV, that they were not really capable of producing a title of this magntitude. Others who have used the Atlas technology, and Unreal technology, have opted for instance based games. And these are developers who have some previous experience too."
"Oddly enough, it is Epic China that created the network solution, so why is SV flying out to the US, when the support team is in China?"
Epic Games China provides Asian technology support and professional training services in Mandarin and English, and North American support through wholly owned Titan Studios in Seattle, Washington. http://www.epicgames.com/press_releases/atlas.html
Starvault's developers speak Swedish with some fluency in English. Epic games (Cary, NC) or Titan studios employees speak English as their native language. Epic games China employees speak Mandarin with some fluency in English. Which combination would have the least communication problems?
"Migrating their code to a 'newer engine' is something funny too -- historically it's shown not to work either. What's the best example I can give you? Anybody know Duke Nukem Forever? It went on FOREVER, because they tried to migrate to the "newer engine" multiple times. "
Comments
Duped you out of 60 bucks? Now I've heard it all.
The only person who duped you was you, pre-odering anything is illogical, you do realize this right? Until there is proof something is worth your money, don't pay for it, is that so hard? Hell if you would have had patience you could have tried it for free, like everyone else who waited.
Nope instead you went and paid for something, when you had no clue whether it was worth it or not. Who is to blame for that? The company that said " hey we're offering pre-orders because no-one will fund us" ? Not to mention they also said they would be relasing with bascially nothing but the foundation of the game, because they couldn't afford to do much more. Yet you still gave them your money, now you want to cry scam? ROFL
Maybe I'm being a little harsh, sorry I just can't help it. This is why companies think they can get away with crap like this in the first place, there's always someone willing to fork over some cash for basically nothing.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The real question is not if you can do it, but rather if you would do it. The answer would probably be a no, because no sane person would start a project like this under these circumstances.
I think that you are exaggerating, there are not switching to a new iteration of the engine, just a minor version bump as in HTML4 > HTML4.1.
Regarding the management, yeah... what can I say, Henrik is a decent individual but his management skills are rather poor. He has shown numerous times that he lacks any kind of planning skills. It seems like he makes decisions on the fly.
cough tera
not even playable BS alot of people can play it lil annoying at times but yea
Great write up OP.
I've been commenting on the similarities between whats going on with MO and Mourning for more than a few months now and getting absolutely ripped apart for it.
In SV's defense, I think their issues are more from inexperience than pure malice as seemed to be the case with Mourning/Realms of Torment. Although, as the pressure builds on SV, many of their moves and comments are straight out of the RoT/Mourning playbook.
Kinda funny that MO is right above Mourning in the game forums list.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
The company hinted strongly that demand would outstrip supply and even went so far as to claim that you could guarantee being able to play the game one day one by pre-ordering. Now as we know (hindsight) that was a crock of shit.. as a matter of fact demand was so low that they are still selling their "limited" supply of boxes and still taking orders for the game.. in April of 2010.. almost 9 months after sales started.
And FYI.. there was never a PROMISED FREE OPEN BETA. The Developers made that quite clear here : http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/669665-post127.html
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
this is all normal in mmos.
whats the difference? lol, mortal online is not going anywhere? and they are the first, trying atlas and unreal in a non instanced world.
the devs at dark adn light and no where near as good as the devs from mortal online.
dark and light failed from the inside.
mortal online only ploblem is its server and stablity ploblems and bugs, BUT THATS BECAUSE ITS A BETA,
YEP EVERYONE MORTAL ONLINE IS GOING TO ROCK THE WORLD WHEN IT RELEASES.
Silly me. From the title, I was thinking that this thread would be about the fact that the vocal critics would criticise them for releasing an unfinished product if Starvault did release this month and would say they couldn't get their act together if they didn't release.
"I have maintained all along about SV, that they were not really capable of producing a title of this magntitude. Others who have used the Atlas technology, and Unreal technology, have opted for instance based games. And these are developers who have some previous experience too."
I believe we've already discussed the suitability of Atlas for open world games (i.e. not instanced) and established that it is designed for both. http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/272841/Lets-do-a-quick-reality-check.html Instanced games are easier to design in general, not just because of the Unreal engine and Atlas.
"Oddly enough, it is Epic China that created the network solution, so why is SV flying out to the US, when the support team is in China?"
Epic Games China provides Asian technology support and professional training services in Mandarin and English, and North American support through wholly owned Titan Studios in Seattle, Washington. http://www.epicgames.com/press_releases/atlas.html
Starvault's developers speak Swedish with some fluency in English. Epic games (Cary, NC) or Titan studios employees speak English as their native language. Epic games China employees speak Mandarin with some fluency in English. Which combination would have the least communication problems?
"Migrating their code to a 'newer engine' is something funny too -- historically it's shown not to work either. What's the best example I can give you? Anybody know Duke Nukem Forever? It went on FOREVER, because they tried to migrate to the "newer engine" multiple times. "
Duke Nukem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Nukem_Forever Quake Engine (mockups) ---> Quake 2 ---->Unreal Engine ---> Doom 3 engine?? and Physics engine Karma physics ----> Meqon
Mortal Online Unreal 3 Engine to slightly newer version of Unreal 3 engine
Not really comparable.