1. WOW sucks at this point. And their design team takes forever to get stuff out. If Blizzard thinks its player base is going to do LGF Tool endlessly for welfare epics for another 7 months, they are out of touch.
2. All that dumbed down content does is accelerate the player base running through it, when what Blizz needs to do is to slow things down and add content at this point.
1. I think they do ok at getting stuff out. They also do really well at game balance overall. The LFD system is a two-edged sword though. Yes it makes doing dungeons easier, which is nice, but it also makes the game feel less immersive and more artificial which is not so nice.
2. I think the big problem here is at some point they decided only raids should be really challenging and then only hard modes. Single-player stuff should be grindy. 5-man stuff should be a little challenging at 80 (if you are all new people) and then pure grind. Save options to make the game more difficult (Hard Modes) for 10 and 25-man raids and then make it so that 10-mans overgear everything because of the 25-man gear they can get (which reduces the challenge tremendously). That's their massive PvE problem in a nutshell, but based on Dev comments they have zero interest in changing this. (Well, I think another problem is all group difficulty is about learning the boss encounter and not enough is about working as a team -- no group abilities or skills -- or proper use of class abilities (tons of stuff is useless in the raid environment).
I'm not saying WoW is horrible. It is remarkably polished and does a number of things well (that's why it is number 1). However, I think a large part of its success is just how awful everything else out there is. When big new games come out a lot of people do leave WoW temporarily, and then they come back when they find out that game sucked (or they thought about leaving, heard the other game sucked and stayed). That can't last forever, and my comments here are about the sort of things that make people look for something better.
Just wanted to thank Camp and others for explaining the WOW rankings and advancement system so thourougly, really shed some light on what motivates players these days as I couldn't see the long term appeal to endless switch out your gear unless it lead to some further objective.
Not my style, (mostly because I have neither the time nor skill to be competitive at that level) but I can see where that could be quite appealing to players and give them some decent incentive to keep playing. This had escaped me somehow and it makes more sense.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Gear is not the top of peoples to do list any longer in WoW. Achievements, titles and mounts seem to be what is rocking peoples boats these days.
Some people, but not most, in my experience. The game is built and focused around the acquisition of gear and achievements, titles, and mounts don't really do much to change that. Further you don't get challenged going after any of that stuff, achievements, titles, and mounts that aren't gained via raiding are pure time sinks.
Gear is not the top of peoples to do list any longer in WoW. Achievements, titles and mounts seem to be what is rocking peoples boats these days.
Some people, but not most, in my experience. The game is built and focused around the acquisition of gear and achievements, titles, and mounts don't really do much to change that. Further you don't get challenged going after any of that stuff, achievements, titles, and mounts that aren't gained via raiding are pure time sinks.
Your sense of accomplishment comes from gear/achievements/title. If you're in a End Game guild, you'll end up getting it anyway and don't have to care too much (as long as you know how to gear yourself up).
Though those not in those guilds, those with many alts, or simply new comers are stuck in that system to get some kind of aknowledgment. To get in a pug, you need 5400GS with proper achievements otherwise you are being replaced. Now by farming heroics, VOA and the weekly raid quest for few weeks you can get passed the 5000GS mark so you might get a spot in friendly groups or probably a spot in entry level guilds.
Gearscore gives you a rough idea on the level of his gear. nothing more. just because some one has 5.5k gs or 6k gs doesn't really mean they are good at everything. its about the player behind that computer. I have seen less gearscore 3.5k for tank and they go trough simple 5 man heroic dungeon smooth as butter, and have been in group where a tank that have 5.7k gs couldn't hold aggro where our healer keeps dying. gear score is not everything.
same as when you look at some ones employment history in EVE - it gives you a rough idea on how long the guys been playing, or the SP he has based on that. but you have no idea how skill full the player is untill you actually fly with him.
and for those that keeps crying about easy mode, obviously they haven't play trough icc or try tanking one. 10 man - 25 man mode tanking is a second job. if you haven't done it, you need to do alot of research on how the fight is, make sure your gear level is up there where it should be specially if your doing ice crown 10, minimum of 5k or you get 1 or 2 shot from boss.
and for those that keeps crying about easy mode, obviously they haven't play trough icc or try tanking one. 10 man - 25 man mode tanking is a second job. if you haven't done it, you need to do alot of research on how the fight is, make sure your gear level is up there where it should be specially if your doing ice crown 10, minimum of 5k or you get 1 or 2 shot from boss.
It requires minimum gearing knowledge and that's about it. Actual boss tanking in ICC is pretty dang boring.
and for those that keeps crying about easy mode, obviously they haven't play trough icc or try tanking one. 10 man - 25 man mode tanking is a second job. if you haven't done it, you need to do alot of research on how the fight is, make sure your gear level is up there where it should be specially if your doing ice crown 10, minimum of 5k or you get 1 or 2 shot from boss.
It requires minimum gearing knowledge and that's about it. Actual boss tanking in ICC is pretty dang boring.
I was geared and running ICC in less than a week from hitting 80. When I realized that ICC was easier than BC raiding I quit. To put it simply, all raiding is karazahn easy now.
Doing something over and over isn't hard... its tedious. The days of forcing people to run the same MOB over and over to gear people is over. I personally want to play through an MMO to experience new things, not to rehash the same experience over and over. WoW gets this, most don't. I also don't want to get stuck rehashing obsolete content to get in line to rehash current content. WoW also gets this right. All WoW is really missing is a mentor or self de-level system to revisit missed content... for fun.
I play EQ2 and it drives me bonkers that we run the same raid week after week to gear up for the next one. Actually even worse, we're running 2008 raids to gear up for 2010 ones ugh.
The pull back to WoW is getting stronger... but I think AoC:RotGS might win out.
Everyone that complains that wow is too easy are just cheaters who never completed a hard raid without reading strategy guides made by players who actually put some effort and wipes in learning encounters. thats right, you down bosses by reading online guides and you're cheating, you dont get to complain how easy it is.
And even disregarding the cheating part, I can say this: show us your hard mode achievements or stop your whining.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Everyone that complains that wow is too easy are just cheaters who never completed a hard raid without reading strategy guides made by players who actually put some effort and wipes in learning encounters. thats right, you down bosses by reading online guides and you're cheating, you dont get to complain how easy it is.
And even disregarding the cheating part, I can say this: show us your hard mode achievements or stop your whining.
First, if it was cheating using guides, which I prefer not to do but social dynamics doesn't really make that possible, then Blizzard could easily design encounters so that guides and mods didn't work. They don't.
Second, that wasn't at all what I was complaining about if you bothered to read my posts.
Everyone that complains that wow is too easy are just cheaters who never completed a hard raid without reading strategy guides made by players who actually put some effort and wipes in learning encounters. thats right, you down bosses by reading online guides and you're cheating, you dont get to complain how easy it is.
And even disregarding the cheating part, I can say this: show us your hard mode achievements or stop your whining.
First, if it was cheating using guides, which I prefer not to do but social dynamics doesn't really make that possible, then Blizzard could easily design encounters so that guides and mods didn't work. They don't.
Second, that wasn't at all what I was complaining about if you bothered to read my posts.
well, it takes alot of audacity to beat a game while reading a walkthrough and then complaining there is no challenge in the game. thats all Im saying.
And I dont remember directing my reply at you btw.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
I got bored of playing wow just to farm items to farm even better items.
I know Wow can be played other ways but things like Alt rolling, crafting and pvp show just how bland wow is these days.
What am I gonna do twink? Xp stop my character to farm items in old raid content noone does? Level through pvp at a snails pace? Play with the most basic achievement system i've ever seen in a mmo? Things like dungeon finder and cross server BGs were never needed for me because unlike the new age mmo player I have social skills and can easily create a group for a dungeon, quest, raid or battleground without blizzard creating mechanic to help me do it.
WoW always comes back to just repeating the same instances over and over waiting for new items to appear on a vendor.
Now thier making items even easier? why bother playing at all?
PvP gear grind is one of the most time consuming gameplay in WoW, and I'm glad they finally tossed a bone to the PvP folks this patch. Easier or not, repeting BG's over and over and over and over and over and over is not hard. It's simply time consuming. For the average folks, people who don't bot, don't afk queue, don't play 8 hour sessions, have multiple characters, etc... it can really take them a long time to get their honor gear.
This change was long overdue, and I'm glad they did it. I don't care if they made getting honor points easier, I have plenty of alts that I'll still be spending quite a lot of time playing BG's regardless of these changes. All they've done is to bring it somewhat up to par with how people have been obtaining PvE gear, or doing the emblem grind.
Sometimes people are looking too much into these things. Getting gear is just part of the game. The other part is having the gear to finally be able to be competitive in PvP & PvE.
Comments
1. I think they do ok at getting stuff out. They also do really well at game balance overall. The LFD system is a two-edged sword though. Yes it makes doing dungeons easier, which is nice, but it also makes the game feel less immersive and more artificial which is not so nice.
2. I think the big problem here is at some point they decided only raids should be really challenging and then only hard modes. Single-player stuff should be grindy. 5-man stuff should be a little challenging at 80 (if you are all new people) and then pure grind. Save options to make the game more difficult (Hard Modes) for 10 and 25-man raids and then make it so that 10-mans overgear everything because of the 25-man gear they can get (which reduces the challenge tremendously). That's their massive PvE problem in a nutshell, but based on Dev comments they have zero interest in changing this. (Well, I think another problem is all group difficulty is about learning the boss encounter and not enough is about working as a team -- no group abilities or skills -- or proper use of class abilities (tons of stuff is useless in the raid environment).
I'm not saying WoW is horrible. It is remarkably polished and does a number of things well (that's why it is number 1). However, I think a large part of its success is just how awful everything else out there is. When big new games come out a lot of people do leave WoW temporarily, and then they come back when they find out that game sucked (or they thought about leaving, heard the other game sucked and stayed). That can't last forever, and my comments here are about the sort of things that make people look for something better.
Just wanted to thank Camp and others for explaining the WOW rankings and advancement system so thourougly, really shed some light on what motivates players these days as I couldn't see the long term appeal to endless switch out your gear unless it lead to some further objective.
Not my style, (mostly because I have neither the time nor skill to be competitive at that level) but I can see where that could be quite appealing to players and give them some decent incentive to keep playing. This had escaped me somehow and it makes more sense.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Gear is not the top of peoples to do list any longer in WoW. Achievements, titles and mounts seem to be what is rocking peoples boats these days.
Some people, but not most, in my experience. The game is built and focused around the acquisition of gear and achievements, titles, and mounts don't really do much to change that. Further you don't get challenged going after any of that stuff, achievements, titles, and mounts that aren't gained via raiding are pure time sinks.
Your sense of accomplishment comes from gear/achievements/title. If you're in a End Game guild, you'll end up getting it anyway and don't have to care too much (as long as you know how to gear yourself up).
Though those not in those guilds, those with many alts, or simply new comers are stuck in that system to get some kind of aknowledgment. To get in a pug, you need 5400GS with proper achievements otherwise you are being replaced. Now by farming heroics, VOA and the weekly raid quest for few weeks you can get passed the 5000GS mark so you might get a spot in friendly groups or probably a spot in entry level guilds.
Gearscore gives you a rough idea on the level of his gear. nothing more. just because some one has 5.5k gs or 6k gs doesn't really mean they are good at everything. its about the player behind that computer. I have seen less gearscore 3.5k for tank and they go trough simple 5 man heroic dungeon smooth as butter, and have been in group where a tank that have 5.7k gs couldn't hold aggro where our healer keeps dying. gear score is not everything.
same as when you look at some ones employment history in EVE - it gives you a rough idea on how long the guys been playing, or the SP he has based on that. but you have no idea how skill full the player is untill you actually fly with him.
and for those that keeps crying about easy mode, obviously they haven't play trough icc or try tanking one. 10 man - 25 man mode tanking is a second job. if you haven't done it, you need to do alot of research on how the fight is, make sure your gear level is up there where it should be specially if your doing ice crown 10, minimum of 5k or you get 1 or 2 shot from boss.
It requires minimum gearing knowledge and that's about it. Actual boss tanking in ICC is pretty dang boring.
I was geared and running ICC in less than a week from hitting 80. When I realized that ICC was easier than BC raiding I quit. To put it simply, all raiding is karazahn easy now.
I play EQ2 and it drives me bonkers that we run the same raid week after week to gear up for the next one. Actually even worse, we're running 2008 raids to gear up for 2010 ones ugh.
The pull back to WoW is getting stronger... but I think AoC:RotGS might win out.
Everyone that complains that wow is too easy are just cheaters who never completed a hard raid without reading strategy guides made by players who actually put some effort and wipes in learning encounters. thats right, you down bosses by reading online guides and you're cheating, you dont get to complain how easy it is.
And even disregarding the cheating part, I can say this: show us your hard mode achievements or stop your whining.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
First, if it was cheating using guides, which I prefer not to do but social dynamics doesn't really make that possible, then Blizzard could easily design encounters so that guides and mods didn't work. They don't.
Second, that wasn't at all what I was complaining about if you bothered to read my posts.
well, it takes alot of audacity to beat a game while reading a walkthrough and then complaining there is no challenge in the game. thats all Im saying.
And I dont remember directing my reply at you btw.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
I got bored of playing wow just to farm items to farm even better items.
I know Wow can be played other ways but things like Alt rolling, crafting and pvp show just how bland wow is these days.
What am I gonna do twink? Xp stop my character to farm items in old raid content noone does? Level through pvp at a snails pace? Play with the most basic achievement system i've ever seen in a mmo? Things like dungeon finder and cross server BGs were never needed for me because unlike the new age mmo player I have social skills and can easily create a group for a dungeon, quest, raid or battleground without blizzard creating mechanic to help me do it.
WoW always comes back to just repeating the same instances over and over waiting for new items to appear on a vendor.
Now thier making items even easier? why bother playing at all?
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
PvP gear grind is one of the most time consuming gameplay in WoW, and I'm glad they finally tossed a bone to the PvP folks this patch. Easier or not, repeting BG's over and over and over and over and over and over is not hard. It's simply time consuming. For the average folks, people who don't bot, don't afk queue, don't play 8 hour sessions, have multiple characters, etc... it can really take them a long time to get their honor gear.
This change was long overdue, and I'm glad they did it. I don't care if they made getting honor points easier, I have plenty of alts that I'll still be spending quite a lot of time playing BG's regardless of these changes. All they've done is to bring it somewhat up to par with how people have been obtaining PvE gear, or doing the emblem grind.
Sometimes people are looking too much into these things. Getting gear is just part of the game. The other part is having the gear to finally be able to be competitive in PvP & PvE.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO