'Limited endgame' - This one is from those players that powerleveled to 'cap' over the month, I dunno what they're expecting to see, - Well, its my understanding FE is a quest heavy game (unlike EVE) therefore players expect to find some sort of "raid" content at level cap a la WOW and most other games? If FE is lacking this then that is the source of the complaints. 'Lack of reason to pvp' -.. why does there have to be a reason to pvp? Again I don't know, do shiny items and your name in a big scoreboard give the only soild reason to pvp these days? - Actually, yes, there does have to be a reason to PVP besides the PVP itself. (which is usually uninspiring by itself in most MMORPG's) In WOW you can see your name in lights as you climb your way to the top of the arena lists, in EVE you can control vast amounts of territory, punish you enemies via wardecs, wage war for control of valuable moons and other resources and even engage in economic war, all to bring down your enemy.
In DAOC we fought for control of Keeps which gave us access to the Darkness Falls dungeon (which was the richest source of income at the time) and for Relics which imparted serious PVE and PVP benefits to the realm that controlled them. We also fought for realm points which we could spend to customize our characters skills (PVP mostly, but some PVE) and continually improve them. Few players ever reached the top of this ladder, it was designed to be endless for all but the most hardcore players. If FE's PVP has nothing similar to the above three systems then again, it explains the complaints against it. 'No respec'/'Wheel spinning' - Again this is a 'WoW issue' although again it's been around for a while Last game I played that had no respec's was Lineage 1, and I hated that game for that. DAOC had respecs as you leveled up (2, 3, I forget) in case you made a mistake and even after you spent them, you could purchase additional respec stones (that dropped from Dragon kills only) at a very high cost if you really wanted to change.
Rerolling the same character class and leveling back up to cap sux and no one really wants to do it. If FE is lacking this sort of flexibility (not necessarily as flexible as WOW's) then again, I understand the complaint. As I've said I think the core of the issues players have with the game is expecting an 'endgame' a kin to every other themepark MMO out there atm, the 'level system' IMO is very misleading as to me FE rolls more with EVE with the RP dash of LOTRO. People are expecting a structured 'endgame' to be layed out for them and are currently getting lost in the fact basically the playerbase has to create their own 'endgame' much like every other sandbox title out there. No, the problem is that FE isn't as much of a sandbox as EVE, and doesn't have a clear design on what end game is, while everything in EVE, even the PVE activities are all geared towards PVP, even if players don't actively participate in it. FE doesn't have this same mechanic driving it which makes the game seem disorganized to some people. It's just a shame the fact the game has 'levels' people expect 'XYZ' to happen which it probly wont - It's those 'expections' that ruin the experience for them, I'm hoping they do resub in the end as many have enjoyed the game but first they need to shake off the current expections and create a whole set of new ones. I agree, it is unfortunate the game has levels, that does set people up to expect a more theme park like end game and the features generally associated with them.
As you mentioned, FE is a new game, and in time it may add enough content to satisfy players over the long haul, but currently some people are going to be disappointed since they hit the "end" and aren't in the mood to craft or mess around with PVP without any clear progression path to work towards.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But ICARUS really needs to take a good look at old SWG (or post-NGE for that matter) if it wants to grasp the basic sandbox essence of NO ENDGAME.
It's fine to have no endgame, being a hybrid sandbox and all, but you need to provide the players the necessary tools to create their own endgame.
That's what made a game like SWG so great right from the start.
People could create their own houses, cities and star ports. Decorate and customize their guts out. And even enable PVP on eachother.
There were dozens of different professions. Combat, crafting, industry, politics, entertainment, exploration, space, etc.
It gave the players the tools to create their own endgame.
And that is what Fallen Earth is missing! It was the exact same problem with City of Heroes and why it ended up in a tiny niche.
CoX was a great game, with lots of freedom in builds and character customization. Yet there was nothing to do for the players when they reached the lvl50 cap. Just one single pointless RAID zone.
And seeing what's in store for patch 1.4 and patch 1.5 for FE. There is nothing on the near horizon that will bring anything.
And the Mythical Sector 4 becomes more mythical by the day.
As you mentioned, FE is a new game, and in time it may add enough content to satisfy players over the long haul, but currently some people are going to be disappointed since they hit the "end" and aren't in the mood to craft or mess around with PVP without any clear progression path to work towards.
i agree whit that point FE is a new game but is like sing up on boxing competition whit half of the training done
again is managing the content this was exposed by the hardcore lvlers on the first month there was ppl that reached level cap in 1 month and some of them stop playing or made alts, dev's should email this ppl and ask them "why u stopped playing?" and they should get the same complains 5 months ago, but dev's get this complains now when more players hit the level cap and the cry/whine is bigger and this could damage the game image.Also player wrong expectation are created when the information is not clear.
lets suppose that dev's know this 5 months ago about this problem/situation that 5 months could give a good time to develop a content to keep ppl busy.
If they didn't want people bitching about endgame they should have never set a cap in the game.
Can you really have a game with no cap whatsoever on levels if you have PvP? Wouldn't that lead to more problems than it would solve?
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Very interesting points made here, and though I am an avid FE fan, its clear that when it comes to "end game" it isn't so cut and dry.
The point and fact is that end game does exist in FE but in the eyes of someone who races to level cap the end game is as shallow as getting to max level and stopping your progression. There is way too much to do to create your character to just rush through the game. Though grinding is a personal preference, "questing" for AP, recipes, vehicles, working on faction, and taking conflict towns, etcetera is something thats predetermined, and these are things that are level-less and transcend the necessity for end game.
In these same avenues you have those that see the forest, but they miss these trees that really make the game worthwhile. For those looking at this game that utilizes levels, it is easy to miss that this game isn't about leveling. At 46, content wise, you may get to a point where you just want to keep progressing, but it becomes stagnant. In the scope of 150 levels, this isn't a problem, but right now we have 46 levels, not 150. At the end of the day if all you had were your levels, then you end up with a very shallow perspective on a game that has plenty to offer.
To say that a MMO don't need an endgame because its sandbox is silly. All mmo characters need a stage where the focus of their existence is not progression but non progresssion activies and that is the "endgame".
If this part of a characters life is not meaningful and contain some kind of purpose then the endgame becomes boring and shallow.
So what developers need to do in MMOs is to sit down and say: "What is the purpose of having a character in this gameworld apart from developing the character?"
In FE the purpose were supposed to be to fight for your faction which then would give purpose to crafting since you needed stuff for the conflict. The sad thing is that Icarus being such roleplaying oriented as they are forgot about GAMER motivations and therefore the purpose of the "endgame" didn't work since the entire conflict is irrelevant, the entire conflict town system is boring and pointless and the RP part of the game system constantly punish you permanently if you engage in PvP.
That is why the endgame has devolved into petty squabbles between small pvp clans, because that is the only thing that have any purpose or meaning at the current cap.
Now the game can easily be given purpose at the cap, they just need to change the pvp reward system and implement faction wide bonuses for success in conflict towns and then all of a sudden things begin to mean something again. They should also change how the conflict town mechanics works so its based on player vs. player events instead of the current very boring pve grinding.
Once the cap is given a purpose again then the rest of the wonderful gameworld also becomes deeper because you then know that all actions you do during lvling also will in the end have a purpose and meaning and that will give even more dept to an already strong world.
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
When players complain about lack of endgame, what they're really complaining about is a lack of purpose. Endgame is merely the "driving factor/s" once level game is dropped out of the equation. There is a level cap, and once people are at it, then they are at 'endgame' and what's left is 'endgame goals', or, purpose.
The complaint essentially, is what is the purpose for players? Is it to participate in conflict town battles as a PvPer? Is it to obtain every crafting recipe as a crafter? Is it to explore every place possible? Is it to get the absolute best gear or max out your bonus AP as an achiever?
The answer to all of these is yes... however, the common complaint seems to be that while there are techically goals in mind, each of them seem rather limiting. There are many players at endgame that have done many of these things, and they have run out of things to do. Is it their fault for "powergaming"? Maybe, but one can only do the same thing so many times before it starts to feel bland.
The biggest complaint I've seen I will say, is a lack of a large scale goal. There's nothing in the game that lets players truly feel like they are participating in something important and making an impact in the world. A world event where players had to participate to rebuild, defend, or clear out areas would be a perfect example of this. It would give a more clearly defined endgame goal, and it would also make players feel ike they are contributing and making and impact.
Comments
As you mentioned, FE is a new game, and in time it may add enough content to satisfy players over the long haul, but currently some people are going to be disappointed since they hit the "end" and aren't in the mood to craft or mess around with PVP without any clear progression path to work towards.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It's all fine and dandy.
But ICARUS really needs to take a good look at old SWG (or post-NGE for that matter) if it wants to grasp the basic sandbox essence of NO ENDGAME.
It's fine to have no endgame, being a hybrid sandbox and all, but you need to provide the players the necessary tools to create their own endgame.
That's what made a game like SWG so great right from the start.
People could create their own houses, cities and star ports. Decorate and customize their guts out. And even enable PVP on eachother.
There were dozens of different professions. Combat, crafting, industry, politics, entertainment, exploration, space, etc.
It gave the players the tools to create their own endgame.
And that is what Fallen Earth is missing! It was the exact same problem with City of Heroes and why it ended up in a tiny niche.
CoX was a great game, with lots of freedom in builds and character customization. Yet there was nothing to do for the players when they reached the lvl50 cap. Just one single pointless RAID zone.
And seeing what's in store for patch 1.4 and patch 1.5 for FE. There is nothing on the near horizon that will bring anything.
And the Mythical Sector 4 becomes more mythical by the day.
As you mentioned, FE is a new game, and in time it may add enough content to satisfy players over the long haul, but currently some people are going to be disappointed since they hit the "end" and aren't in the mood to craft or mess around with PVP without any clear progression path to work towards.
i agree whit that point FE is a new game but is like sing up on boxing competition whit half of the training done
again is managing the content this was exposed by the hardcore lvlers on the first month there was ppl that reached level cap in 1 month and some of them stop playing or made alts, dev's should email this ppl and ask them "why u stopped playing?" and they should get the same complains 5 months ago, but dev's get this complains now when more players hit the level cap and the cry/whine is bigger and this could damage the game image.Also player wrong expectation are created when the information is not clear.
lets suppose that dev's know this 5 months ago about this problem/situation that 5 months could give a good time to develop a content to keep ppl busy.
BestSigEver :P
Can you really have a game with no cap whatsoever on levels if you have PvP? Wouldn't that lead to more problems than it would solve?
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Very interesting points made here, and though I am an avid FE fan, its clear that when it comes to "end game" it isn't so cut and dry.
The point and fact is that end game does exist in FE but in the eyes of someone who races to level cap the end game is as shallow as getting to max level and stopping your progression. There is way too much to do to create your character to just rush through the game. Though grinding is a personal preference, "questing" for AP, recipes, vehicles, working on faction, and taking conflict towns, etcetera is something thats predetermined, and these are things that are level-less and transcend the necessity for end game.
In these same avenues you have those that see the forest, but they miss these trees that really make the game worthwhile. For those looking at this game that utilizes levels, it is easy to miss that this game isn't about leveling. At 46, content wise, you may get to a point where you just want to keep progressing, but it becomes stagnant. In the scope of 150 levels, this isn't a problem, but right now we have 46 levels, not 150. At the end of the day if all you had were your levels, then you end up with a very shallow perspective on a game that has plenty to offer.
To say that a MMO don't need an endgame because its sandbox is silly. All mmo characters need a stage where the focus of their existence is not progression but non progresssion activies and that is the "endgame".
If this part of a characters life is not meaningful and contain some kind of purpose then the endgame becomes boring and shallow.
So what developers need to do in MMOs is to sit down and say: "What is the purpose of having a character in this gameworld apart from developing the character?"
In FE the purpose were supposed to be to fight for your faction which then would give purpose to crafting since you needed stuff for the conflict. The sad thing is that Icarus being such roleplaying oriented as they are forgot about GAMER motivations and therefore the purpose of the "endgame" didn't work since the entire conflict is irrelevant, the entire conflict town system is boring and pointless and the RP part of the game system constantly punish you permanently if you engage in PvP.
That is why the endgame has devolved into petty squabbles between small pvp clans, because that is the only thing that have any purpose or meaning at the current cap.
Now the game can easily be given purpose at the cap, they just need to change the pvp reward system and implement faction wide bonuses for success in conflict towns and then all of a sudden things begin to mean something again. They should also change how the conflict town mechanics works so its based on player vs. player events instead of the current very boring pve grinding.
Once the cap is given a purpose again then the rest of the wonderful gameworld also becomes deeper because you then know that all actions you do during lvling also will in the end have a purpose and meaning and that will give even more dept to an already strong world.
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
When players complain about lack of endgame, what they're really complaining about is a lack of purpose. Endgame is merely the "driving factor/s" once level game is dropped out of the equation. There is a level cap, and once people are at it, then they are at 'endgame' and what's left is 'endgame goals', or, purpose.
The complaint essentially, is what is the purpose for players? Is it to participate in conflict town battles as a PvPer? Is it to obtain every crafting recipe as a crafter? Is it to explore every place possible? Is it to get the absolute best gear or max out your bonus AP as an achiever?
The answer to all of these is yes... however, the common complaint seems to be that while there are techically goals in mind, each of them seem rather limiting. There are many players at endgame that have done many of these things, and they have run out of things to do. Is it their fault for "powergaming"? Maybe, but one can only do the same thing so many times before it starts to feel bland.
The biggest complaint I've seen I will say, is a lack of a large scale goal. There's nothing in the game that lets players truly feel like they are participating in something important and making an impact in the world. A world event where players had to participate to rebuild, defend, or clear out areas would be a perfect example of this. It would give a more clearly defined endgame goal, and it would also make players feel ike they are contributing and making and impact.