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Player Expectations of 'endgame' are their own downfall?
Kremlik
Member UncommonPosts: 716
Seeing as 'the 4000' are close to their first sub payment I'm finding it quite interesting that a few of the common reasons for not resubbing are players expecting the 'normal' requirements to FE in every other non-sandbox title currently has, which in itself is slightly flawed due to the fact the game is a hybrid.
'Limited endgame' - This one is from those players that powerleveled to 'cap' over the month, I dunno what they're expecting to see, it's also safe to assume they 'soloed' the content as well, it's a shame really as the game has got nothing to do with level capping, the irrony is from what I've heard we're not even close to what the devs want as a level cap, plus with the way the game is I feel it's more a kin to RP 'endgame' then anything else, as with EVE basically 'endgame' is crafting to pvp.
'Lack of reason to pvp' - This one bugs me down to the core, I mainly blame WoW for this one (although to be fair it's been in other titles too it's just that main use WoW as the template for level based mmo pvp atm), why does there have to be a reason to pvp? Again I don't know, do shiny items and your name in a big scoreboard give the only soild reason to pvp these days?
'No respec'/'Wheel spinning' - Again this is a 'WoW issue' although again it's been around for a while, WoW basically treats it like putting on new shoes, duelspec doubles the 'respec' treatment, thus making the idea of 'choice' meaningless, you aren't really choosing when you can just change everything easily to suit the current 'best' setup - techcially that doesn't make the character yours, just a pre-set model. Personally I love the idea of no respecs seeing as it's a sandbox again with more RP then the 'norm' in MMOs, it's mimicing real life in a way, once you've learnt somthing you can't unlearn it. Wheel Spinning just furthers the point, many just want to have everything and chop and choose 'the best' stuff to 'win' - Thankfully Icarus may be limiting that soon, main point is if you want to have different 'specs' to play with, why not have an alt?
As I've said I think the core of the issues players have with the game is expecting an 'endgame' a kin to every other themepark MMO out there atm, the 'level system' IMO is very misleading as to me FE rolls more with EVE with the RP dash of LOTRO. People are expecting a structured 'endgame' to be layed out for them and are currently getting lost in the fact basically the playerbase has to create their own 'endgame' much like every other sandbox title out there.
It's just a shame the fact the game has 'levels' people expect 'XYZ' to happen which it probly wont - It's those 'expections' that ruin the experience for them, I'm hoping they do resub in the end as many have enjoyed the game but first they need to shake off the current expections and create a whole set of new ones.
-------
Added due to the posts made in this topic to futher highlight the 'level' issue before it gets lost in the sea of 'debate'.
Thanks to Rock there has highlighted the problem exactally, 'level' is really just a number related to your skillcap and item useage really, hell if you have all of EVEs skills charted out that even has 'levels' to some degree.
It's only resently that 'level cap' instead of being linked to skill caps as been linked to content in the form of 'endgame', a term within irrony itself as theres no real 'end' to a MMO, 'endgame' in many people's eyes it's where all the best 'gear'' is, which techically is a mute point in FE as 'gear' doesn't define your character, your skillset does.
I think FE chooses to display it's 'level' purly to structure out it's learning curve each sector has a 'minimum level limit' to enter which oepens up the game a little more, unlike EVE which basically overwelms you once you've past the tutorial, FE only gives you a slice of the cake at a time, whereas EVE just throws the whole thing at you in a way, making FE a slightly more accessable sandbox then EVE is.
Like I said the fact of the matter is that the 'level system' is misleading as FE is mostly sandbox and more a PVP/RP title then a PVE dungeon crawler, there is no 'endgame' and removing the cap will just confuse matters further.
Bring on the WARRRRGGHH!
Comments
Very good post, and I totally agree with you.
The thing is, many players need some kind of certain, solid, visible, "tasteable, smellible etc"... target, goal in a game, in order to give them a graspable, and more importantly - "boastable" sense of achievement. They want to "beat" the game. They want to be the "best", have the total überbuild, the best gear, not to lose a single AP, beat everyone and their mother in PVP, then advertise this everywhere, make a website, post it everywhere, and at the end, forget about the game and move on looking for the next game "to beat".
Thing is, an MMO is not suited for this formula, if the developers plan it in a way that they will constantly expand, grow, develop it - make it bigger both vertically (level cap, new areas, higher level gear to craft) and horizontally (new skills, new quests, new features, new vehicles to craft etc.). If a game grows like this, it will never cater to the "game-beater" crowd.
I strongly believe this is the best aspect of FE. There IS a market for game like this and I'm glad I found FE.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Great post.
I tried explaining the "endgame" issue to someone in another thread - but your post is a lot more concise, shame I didn't have it to link to.
As DB said above, FE is set up around the idea that leveling should not be something you're funneled through to get to the all-important endgame - the goalposts for where "endgame" is will move quicker than some of us (who are playing slow and steady, exploring, crafting and enjoying the world) will reach them.
For some, this is a bad thing; for players like me, it's a very welcome breath of fresh air. I think, in essence, this focus switch is what makes FE "not for everyone".
You're right, there will be churn as regards the 4k "freebies", but that was inevitable given the difference in both pace and focus of FE compared to other games. I'm willing to bet that enough of the 4k will have been pleasantly surprised, and will sub, to have made the offer more than worth it from Icarus' point of view.
If they didn't want people bitching about endgame they should have never set a cap in the game.
It's as simple as that.
If your going Hybrid then not only do you need the freedom of the sandbox but the content and endgame of a themepark.
Was a bad decision by the devs honestly, FE should be a more focused pvp game with no cap, less quest grinding and lead me by the hand zone progression.
WoW is a big game and all of those players are now in the genre, if you going to make a quest heavy game they will try it and bitch.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Did you even read the OP, or any other comments?
The CAP is temporary, and will be lifted. Quite soon actually.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Did you even read the OP, or any other comments?
The CAP is temporary, and will be lifted. Quite soon actually.
DB
Its only a raise of the cap not the devs getting rid of it. The cap is the problem
No cap, no endgame.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Yep, FE will retain only X percent of all the trial and freebie folks (and the amount of X is a big questionmark, of course the "endgamers" will claim they are majority, but that might or might not be true...) , but I can bet my car and flat that those who stay will be truly loyal. Playerbase will be somewhat similar to that of EVE on the long run. This game has a long and bright future.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Did you even read the OP, or any other comments?
The CAP is temporary, and will be lifted. Quite soon actually.
DB
Its only a raise of the cap not the devs getting rid of it. The cap is the problem
No cap, no endgame.
Yes, but what you don't see is, that it is an ADVANTAGE for many people. Try to grasp the essence of "each to their own".
DB
Edit: I need to clarify as I might have misunderstood you first: what I mean here is: regardless of the existance of the cap, people can play simply just forgetting the term "endgame". Just as a level cap does NOT mean that there is an "endgame", the same way people are not in any way forced to do the stupid mindless grinds that themepark mmo's have when the devs have run out of ideas (gated raids, PVP for gear, repu grind etc.).
If you have a mindset like the OP or mine when you play, you do not even truly understand the term "endgame". If a game gets developed continuously, the term itself becomes void of meaning - just think logically.
The only thing that can happen to make people complain in this formula is when they rush to the level cap, and need to wait until it's raised. My guess is that they are/have missed a LOT during their rush..... These folks must have the weird concept of trying to "beat" the game (as desribed above), and if they have too much time, they will be paused at these stages.
To be honest, gamers with this kind if mindset probably needs to be told what to do all the time..... that IS their concept of fun: do what's there, using ideas from others (überbuilds), quests to them are just tiring ways to get XP and AP, I bet they don't explore hidden corners of the map.... I think you got the point.
For folks having the adventurous, patient, RP-oriented, laid back gaming style, FE can be a real winner.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Playerbase will be somewhat similar to that of EVE on the long run.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Did you even read the OP, or any other comments?
The CAP is temporary, and will be lifted. Quite soon actually.
DB
Its only a raise of the cap not the devs getting rid of it. The cap is the problem
No cap, no endgame.
Yes, but what you don't see is, that it is an ADVANTAGE for many people. Try to grasp the essence of "each to their own".
DB
I understand "Each to their own" just fine.
All im saying is don't bitch about the players that complain about endgame when in your games very design it is required due to having a level cap.
When you put a level cap into a game people power level toward it, then they expect all the content at max level, sure raising the level cap will be ok at first but those same players will just power to the cap in a month or two and be bitching again.
Its a lose lose situation.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Did you even read the OP, or any other comments?
The CAP is temporary, and will be lifted. Quite soon actually.
DB
Its only a raise of the cap not the devs getting rid of it. The cap is the problem
No cap, no endgame.
Yes, but what you don't see is, that it is an ADVANTAGE for many people. Try to grasp the essence of "each to their own".
DB
I understand "Each to their own" just fine.
All im saying is don't bitch about the players that complain about endgame when in your games very design it is required due to having a level cap.
When you put a level cap into a game people power level toward it, then they expect all the content at max level, sure raising the level cap will be ok at first but those same players will just power to the cap in a month or two and be bitching again.
Its a lose lose situation.
You have serious misconceptions.
Nobody "bitched" about the "endgame" folks. We have just described why FE was not designed for them, and that how it caters to folks with different mindsets, who we happen to belong to. That's all.
"When you put a level cap into a game people power level toward it" - Again, I am telling the same, maybe this time it comes through to you: SOME people power level. Others don't. FE is for the others. Clear now?
"then they expect all the content at max level" - that's a fundamental mistake from the player's part. Why do they expect all content at max level? Any good MMO should have equal amount of content at every level, that's how they are the most fun. Only those rush to the max level who have this misconception of "having fun at max level only". A very bad misconception indeed, sadly helped by WOW and other crap games. Read the OP again.
On the level cap: It is not the game's design that needs a level cap, it is the game's content (amount) at the moment, that needs a temporary level cap.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
dont bet on that FE is not eve
BestSigEver :P
dont bet on that FE is not eve
That's the difference between the words "similar" and "same".
I beta'd EVE. It was such a small niche game in it's first 2 years (2004-2006), it was doubtful it will survive. FE is already doing better.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
I agree Icarus is the one to blame here partially. They made a few items with level restrictions, and they put the level system there for some reason, eventho it's totally not needed. The skills could be capped in a more obscure way or with a bit more clever mechanics.The cap itself is not a problem.
REALITY CHECK
Did you even read the OP, or any other comments?
The CAP is temporary, and will be lifted. Quite soon actually.
DB
Its only a raise of the cap not the devs getting rid of it. The cap is the problem
No cap, no endgame.
Yes, but what you don't see is, that it is an ADVANTAGE for many people. Try to grasp the essence of "each to their own".
DB
I understand "Each to their own" just fine.
All im saying is don't bitch about the players that complain about endgame when in your games very design it is required due to having a level cap.
When you put a level cap into a game people power level toward it, then they expect all the content at max level, sure raising the level cap will be ok at first but those same players will just power to the cap in a month or two and be bitching again.
Its a lose lose situation.
You have serious misconceptions.
Nobody "bitched" about the "engame" folks. We have just desrcibed why FE was not designed for them, and that how it caters to folks with different mindsets, who we happen to belong to. That's all.
"When you put a level cap into a game people power level toward it" - Again, I am telling the same, maybe this time it comes through to you: SOME people power level. Others don't. FE is for the others. Clear now?
It is not the game's design that needs a level cap, it is the game's content (amount) that needs a temporary level cap.
DB
That's bullshit.
Because you don't power level the game is for you due to its lack of content?
What the hell is that? The devs put in the skill cap, they created the whole faction pvp design. Obviously they had to be aware of people power leveling and wanting something to do.
Saying this game isn't for them because their main goal is hitting cap is utter bullshit.
I mean seriously the devs are already raising the cap so what is that telling you? that they are aware of the players wanting more content at cap so they are giving it to the very people that you feel arent catered to in the game and shouldn't be playing.
This is like me saying people shouldnt play Eve if they like pve, which is complete bullshit. CCP put in missions for pvers and its CCPs failure that they didn't create a more exciting pve feature to hold those guys.
Dont want power levelers? dont add in a cap.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Thanks to Rock there has highlighted the problem exactally, 'level' is really just a number related to your skillcap and item useage really, hell if you have all of EVEs skills charted out that even has 'levels' to some degree.
It's only resently that 'level cap' instead of being linked to skill caps as been linked to content in the form of 'endgame', a term within irrony itself as theres no real 'end' to a MMO, 'endgame' in many people's eyes it's where all the best 'gear'' is, which techically is a mute point in FE as 'gear' doesn't define your character, your skillset does.
FE chooses to display it's 'level' purly to structure out it's learning curve each sector has a 'minimum level limit' to enter which oepens up the game a little more, unlike EVE which basically overwelms you once you've past the tutorial, FE only gives you a slice of the cake at a time, whereas EVE just throws the whole thing at you in a way, making FE a slightly more accessable sandbox then EVE is.
Like I said the fact of the matter is that the 'level system' is misleading as FE is mostly sandbox and more a PVP/RP title then a PVE dungeon crawler, there is no 'endgame' and removing the cap will just confuse matters further.
Bring on the WARRRRGGHH!
I agree Icarus is the one to blame here partially. They made a few items with level restrictions, and they put the level system there for some reason, eventho it's totally not needed. The skills could be capped in a more obscure way or with a bit more clever mechanics.The cap itself is not a problem.
The problem would still be the same if there was no cap: they would just call it something else: no content.
The cap is there because the devs could not make content to fill up 150 levels and 10 zones. This is a gradual process like Lotro's. Yep, they could cancel the cap, but what would lvl 46 people do? Grind to 48-49 with mob only? How would that be better.
Once again: the only reason for the level cap is the lack of content, caused by the small size of the dev team and their capacity.
It is a not a game design choice, but rather a forced necessity.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Guys can you tone in down a little, debating is ok, but swearing and basically aurguing the same points over and over isn't helping the discussion, as it's just you two back and forth yelling at each other - can't you just agree to disagree?
Bring on the WARRRRGGHH!
The problem would still be the same if there was no cap: they would just call it something else: no content.
The cap is there because the devs could not make content to fill up 150 levels and 10 zones. This is a gradual process like Lotro's. Yep, they could cancel the cap, but what would lvl 46 people do? Grind to 48-49 with mob only? How would that be better.
Once again: the only reason for the level cap is the lack of content, caused by the small size of the dev team and their capacity.
It is a not a game design choice, but rather a forced necessity.
DB
Again, I don't think the cap itself is the problem. I think the problem is here that Icarus made the levels visible part of your character. I said, it would be better to have it in a bit more obscure way or hidden within a bit more clever mechanics.
The way it is now, levels are only related to the skill cap. You would still have skill cap in that system - so it has nothing to do with the content. It's the expectations that make people think there's no end-game, and the expectations arises because of the level system and level requirements system.
Imagine, there would be no levels. And the cap for skills (which is now being limited by your level) would be limited by your total AP instead (practically with the same effect as it is now). So there would be no levels, no item level restrictions or mission-level restrictions. There would be no end-game because the AP-cap system would be far more flexible. People would not expect to hit certain level cap - they would only expect to hit content-cap. Which are two very different things.
REALITY CHECK
When i played FE i played it like a sandbox, I did my normal thing and just roamed around, working on my character, living out my life in the big dust bowl.
Problem is not everyone plays the game the same and with many people in this community coming from WoW as their first mmo when they see a game with quest hub after quest hub leading them from zone to zone they expect something different once they hit cap.
For me I hit cap and im totally happy doing the same stuff i was doing at level one but don't expect the wowers to do that.
So i understand the complaints, They needs something to do at cap, they want a reason to do stuff (rewards).
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
That's bullshit.
Because you don't power level the game is for you due to its lack of content? I was talking about content above the curent level cap, I thought it's simple to understand. But in a way, yes, since I have a casual playing style, FE is more for me than for the powergamer who will run out of content in a short amount of time.
What the hell is that? The devs put in the skill cap, they created the whole faction pvp design. Obviously they had to be aware of people power leveling and wanting something to do. They can't totally neglect them, so they are trying to give them something, but of course they have limitations. Regardless, powerlevelers will hit the cap and run out of content in ANY game, Icarus is not particularly worse than the market average in this sense, and compared to their size and budget, they are pretty good actually.
Saying this game isn't for them because their main goal is hitting cap is utter bullshit. To be honest with you, no game is good enough for these folks, they will just get bored of everything way too quickly. If someone ever needs a "goal" to play besides the simple goal of having fun, that's already too bad.
I mean seriously the devs are already raising the cap so what is that telling you? It is telling me one thing only: they finally have new areas that they can open, they had done some work. Nothing else. that they are aware of the players wanting more content at cap so they are giving it to the very people that you feel arent catered to in the game and shouldn't be playing. No, they have announced - before the game was released - that they are planning level caps at 150 originally. They are not doing this because of the whiners, it was always the plan. They are doing it for me, so when I reach the current cap, it will already be higher
This is like me saying people shouldnt play Eve if they like pve, which is complete bullshit. CCP put in missions for pvers and its CCPs failure that they didn't create a more exciting pve feature to hold those guys.
Dont want power levelers? dont add in a cap. You don't play many MMO's do you? Ever heard of 9Dragons? That game does not have a cap, and guess who plays it? Power leveler PVP'ers, almost exclusively.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Yeah I think we both moved on already.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
When i played FE i played it like a sandbox, I did my normal thing and just roamed around, working on my character, living out my life in the big dust bowl.
Problem is not everyone plays the game the same and with many people in this community coming from WoW as their first mmo when they see a game with quest hub after quest hub leading them from zone to zone they expect something different once they hit cap.
For me I hit cap and im totally happy doing the same stuff i was doing at level one but don't expect the wowers to do that.
So i understand the complaints, They needs something to do at cap, they want a reason to do stuff (rewards).
See, you could have started the discussion in this manner. Not sure why you had to result to semi-insults.
While I agree that it's nice and useful to try to cater to those who powerlevel and then have nothing to do, I have seen too much and played too many games to believe that any developer EVER can satisfy those folks. Playing through content takes so much less time than to develop that content, that there will always be folks running ahead and then pausing for new content.
Now, about the level cap... it's again an ancient debate - not the cap itself, but to have visible levels or not at all. Truth is, a game is hardly enjoyable, if at all, when there is no visible progression. Call it skills, or levels, it does not really matter. People (and even casuals who prefer sandbox games) just love to see their character progressing, be it gear, abilities, storyline, or simply just another level. Devs can either insanely extend the grind to level (9dragons), or have to add a cap.
If anyone knows any better ways, I'd be glad to hear, but honestly, I don't think there is. Yes, you can have skills only (like EVE), but it is essentially the same.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
The problem would still be the same if there was no cap: they would just call it something else: no content.
The cap is there because the devs could not make content to fill up 150 levels and 10 zones. This is a gradual process like Lotro's. Yep, they could cancel the cap, but what would lvl 46 people do? Grind to 48-49 with mob only? How would that be better.
Once again: the only reason for the level cap is the lack of content, caused by the small size of the dev team and their capacity.
It is a not a game design choice, but rather a forced necessity.
DB
Again, I don't think the cap itself is the problem. I think the problem is here that Icarus made the levels visible part of your character. I said, it would be better to have it in a bit more obscure way or hidden within a bit more clever mechanics.
The way it is now, levels are only related to the skill cap. You would still have skill cap in that system - so it has nothing to do with the content. It's the expectations that make people think there's no end-game, and the expectations arises because of the level system and level requirements system.
Imagine, there would be no levels. And the cap for skills (which is now being limited by your level) would be limited by your total AP instead (practically with the same effect as it is now). So there would be no levels, no item level restrictions or mission-level restrictions. There would be no end-game because the AP-cap system would be far more flexible. People would not expect to hit certain level cap - they would only expect to hit content-cap. Which are two very different things.
Content end and level cap can be different, yes, but in this particular case FE does have the level cap due to the "end" of current content. My example referred to FE specifically.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Again, great comment, you describe it very well.
So, basically, we are saying (and I agree), that the levels (which are nothing more than a simple display of your character progression) are not capped, only halted at the current stage (46), before new content is available. Since all the preconceptions associated with "best stuff is at the cap", some people, who bring these conceptions to FE, are naturally disappointed.
I think this is the fact we all agree on. What I was saying, that these folks, when they eventually realize that level cap in FE is NOT what they are used in other games (legendary gear and über-titles), they have the choice of either adapting to FE, or leave.
Some people worry that there are too many of those who will leave: all I'm saying is: even if FE had mega-raids with huge awards at (even temporary) level caps, that would work as effective timesinks for these folks, they would beat them anyway and leave - a little bit later. Would be probably a few more months subs for Icarus, but these people will not stay as loyal as those who originally understand and enjoy the current concept of FE's gameplay and progression.
If Icarus would start shifting towards trying (hopelessly, actually) to fulfill the expectation of the "endgamers", that would be the real lose-lose situation. First losing those who understand and love their "sequential" progress, and a little later they'd lose the powergamers who'd burn through even the most gated, grindy content after a while.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.