this game is so themepark it makes me want to puke. why does cant everyone be a force user that has the choices to take on these rolls. even switch sides. if you wanted to be a republic whatever with force abilities you should be able to switch to sith inquisitor if you want. a major theme in starwars is switching sides. falling from the light mainly, but also switching back again. why not in this game. and whats with the obsession with story. I hate it when a game force syou to do quests. that was the worst thing about the other games. they would have been awsome if every feature was unolocked from the start. the forced missions broke the entire game for me. i hate that bioware is the company that makes the new starwars mmo. whats your ideas about this.
I totally disagree with you, for one even the mmo's that have added story through the use of quests have not done nearly as good a job of it as have many console games so until they can reach that quaility I don't even give these themeparks credit for the quests they hoist up so I for one am excited to see an mmo with a strong story line element to it.
I've never fealt forced to do anything in any mmo if I chose to level a guy simply by grinding mobs it is possible and I've done it in round about ways many times over.
For me video games are an escape very similar to reading a good book and who wants to read a book with no story to it? Or better yet who goes and picks up a Steven King book and then get pissed that the pages aren't blank so that ya know I can write my own story.
With the addition of sandbox tools there is no reason why these playstyles can't coexist and while that would be my first choice I woiuld certainly not advice Bioware or Lucas Arts for that matter to let the next Star Wars mmo be another watered down version of every other community fight fest we have, or better yet since that is going to happen no matter what kind of game you make why not atleast design one that makes money?
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
im sooo going to bring this thread up when you all find out this game is heavily instanced and put on rails.
Non-instanced world, key points in your story are instanced, these flashpoints are repeatable. Is that heavily instanced to you? Sounds kinda WoWish to me in terms of how instancing is used. Not many people are sweating this. Maybe here, but here....lol....yeah, who cares about most of the people here.
So you've played this game and know its themepark? We dont know enough about the game to know what happens after the initial area or if the "story" part is just part of the initial area also. Dont be so quick to judge with little information. If you dont like Bioware making the game or your assuming its a themepark game then dont play it. Personally Im looking forward to see what this game has in store for us.
(BBBBBWWWWWAAAAHHHHHH goes to bioware to have plungers put in the game. bioware tells the Raving Rabbid that plungers would be too overpowered.)
LITTLE information? We have it straight from the mouth of the devs.
They said 95% of the content is intended for a solo player to complete. You get NPC companions so you don't NEED a group to get through this content. The content is story based and instanced.
How in satans holy hell do you think that's going to be a sandbox?
Add in the fact that every single Bioware game made in the past 12 years has been a linear storyline based single player game.... it doesn't take a genius to figure it out.
Since when does Sandbox = group play? Personally, I'm a fan of both styles, themepark and sandbox. As long as they do an awesome job in either style, I'm a happy GAMER. If you don't like themeparks at all, don't bother watching the game's development and commenting on it. Just move on.
Most of the sandboxes that I have played (okay, both of them) Ryzom and Fallen Earth were 95% solo. Leveling in a themepark like WoW or WAR was 50/50 and end-game is almost 90% grouping. That's what I want in a mmo
I think if the instancing is used sparingly, it will be fine. But if it is implemented as a core feature to the point that it fractures the feel of an expansive space, minimizing the 'massively' of community social game-play, like Champions and STO, then BioWare will get the niche audience their catering to in that regard.
Striving for Silver Stars since Gold is so effeminate.
im sooo going to bring this thread up when you all find out this game is heavily instanced and put on rails.
lets see what excuses you all come up with then.
Straight from the developers' mouth........10% of the game is instanced. Stop beating the dead horse, it's had enough.
Link it, or it didnt happen. Thats good news if thats the case, but we really should have a qualified link so we can bookmark it for future reference.
Everything has been linked several times. If you want more information check the nice stickies at the top of the SWTOR board.
It would be a waste to link anything more at this point since no one has checked all the other links in this thread and others. Its hard to debate against people who don't even do any research, at this point it is just kneejerk reactions.
Also, if anyone has noticed the OP has not commented once on his own topic. Furthermore, if you check his posts he posted a similar topic about themeparks elsewhere on the boards, and never returned. The OP knew what would happen when he posted this thread.
I have'nt really played a bioware rpg or kotor game I did'nt totally get wrapped up in and play through multiple times "except dragon age", and so far I don't see any reason this one will be any different. Honestly I'm not so sure this one is really directed towards traditional mmo gamers so much as the ginormous numbers of people who've bought their rpgs.
Since it's been anounced that it's going to have a wide open player world with some instances for quests or "raids" the only things that concern me are economy/crafting, housing, space and pvp because I have'nt heard anything definative about any of those....ideally I'd like to see the game have those elements closer to something like swg, that would really make this the ultimate game.
I don't like a story driven game,but i do like a story.I also do not like a game that feels or plays like a single player game.I also realize Bioware is out to make money a lot more so than creating a great game.
One thing i do not agree on is that is where the money is.People are buying games because of hype/marketing or following a developer they already like or because of a named product like STO/SWG ect ect.
The named IP's have the easiest chance to make a great game,because they basically already have a story and direction to follow from a movie/book or tv series.I think no matter what type of direction STOR takes,many will blindly buy it and follow it.So in saying that,Bioware has a great chance to try some unique ideas,as imo MOST now a days are sick of the old linear gaming path.
This may be Bioware's mistake,to a new MMORPG player a story driven linear quest design is what they are used to,and probably to Bioware it seems all ok,however they will not retain any high numbers based on noobs alone,they will need to create something for us fussy vets who have done it all seen it all before.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
This may be Bioware's mistake,to a new MMORPG player a story driven linear quest design is what they are used to,and probably to Bioware it seems all ok,however they will not retain any high numbers based on noobs alone,they will need to create something for us fussy vets who have done it all seen it all before.
How is Bioware's quest design linear? From what I have heard your decisions made while going through a quest dialogue effect which quest you get, and which quests you might get after that. Doesn't sound all that linear to me. Sounds easy enough for said "noobs" to get into the game, but also enough variety in the story for "veterans" to sink into.
Overall i'm not too sure what people are looking for in this game. Sandbox Star Wars was already done, and nostalgia has set in, but lets face it, it obviously wasn't good enough. I loved SWG, but that didn't stop me from leaving several times. A lot of us build up the perfect image of a game we once played as being the epitome of games, but was it really that great? If so why isn't/wasn't anyone playing it? Since a sandbox version of the IP was already done, why not look forward to a non-sandbox version of the IP? Why not give a chance to a developer that has proven they aren't afraid of making new IPs, and stepping outside of their comfort zone? Bioware has proven time and time again they can go outside their roots, DnD based games, and make something great.
Can you really pre-judge the success or failure of a company like Bioware based on the failures of other companies that have tried their hands at MMO's?
This may be Bioware's mistake,to a new MMORPG player a story driven linear quest design is what they are used to,and probably to Bioware it seems all ok,however they will not retain any high numbers based on noobs alone,they will need to create something for us fussy vets who have done it all seen it all before.
When was the last time those fussy vets actually logged into a game, and attempted to enjoy it for what it was, rather than hate it for what it wasn't?
Sorry if I were a designer the last people's opinion I'd worry about would be the "fussy vets". Wanna know what company has ignored them the most? Blizzard
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by firefly2003 Originally posted by Garvon3 Originally posted by arcanist this game is so themepark it makes me want to puke. why does cant everyone be a force user that has the choices to take on these rolls. even switch sides. if you wanted to be a republic whatever with force abilities you should be able to switch to sith inquisitor if you want. a major theme in starwars is switching sides. falling from the light mainly, but also switching back again. why not in this game. and whats with the obsession with story. I hate it when a game force syou to do quests. that was the worst thing about the other games. they would have been awsome if every feature was unolocked from the start. the forced missions broke the entire game for me. i hate that bioware is the company that makes the new starwars mmo. whats your ideas about this.
Because theme park is where the money is at.
Bioware has only ever made linear story based games, heavily focused on the single player game.
This MMO is going to be exactly that. It's all they know how to do. Granted, this won't really be an MMO, but it'll make money, and people will probably try to copy it, and even though the MMO market kind of died with WoW, we can say goodbye to it forever if this game succeeds. If theme parks is where the money is at how come every release since WOW has fell flat? Player base disappearing after 1-3 months? If they are so profitable why am I Not playing them?
What about Mortal Online? Darkfall? Fallen Earth?
All sandboxish titles, none of them above 10k subs. Compared to those numbers AOC's 100k subs are sex in a box.
If theme parks is where the money is at how come every release since WOW has fell flat? Player base disappearing after 1-3 months? If they are so profitable why am I Not playing them?
What about Mortal Online? Darkfall? Fallen Earth?
All sandboxish titles, none of them above 10k subs. Compared to those numbers AOC's 100k subs are sex in a box.
Too true...
It's either a matter of being unable to accept your preferences aren't universal, or a lack of understanding of the importance of popularity when it comes to selling a product.
Sandboxes as they are known today, are even less popular to the majority, than the theme-park games everyone loves to hate on this site.
Unless you can go around smackin' bitches, blowing up police helicopters and pimp'n your hoes, open ended gaming just isn't popular to the casual, every day gamer.
Unless it requires farming crops, of course....
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You also picked three independent games to prod at. We've not seen a AAA company do a sandbox MMO since SWG. It's a pipe dream at this point, I suppose. The genre is turning over for the money grabbers as of late and innovation is taking a backseat.
This is my point of contention here. A sandbox game hasn't been made by a company who actually had the funds to make an MMO since SWG. Yet in the time since ALL AAA companies have made nothing but themeparks. If at least ONE AAA comapny would put together a solid sandbox game I would happily move there and STFU about why aren't there at least one AAA made sandbox game in the last 6 years.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
ther are classes. there is from what ive gathered [tell me if im wrong] a forced story. these are core features of the classic themepark and i completely and utterly hat forced story. so if any one here says it might not be themepark, there has t be a new classification ive never heard of.
this game is so themepark it makes me want to puke. why does cant everyone be a force user that has the choices to take on these rolls. even switch sides. if you wanted to be a republic whatever with force abilities you should be able to switch to sith inquisitor if you want. a major theme in starwars is switching sides. falling from the light mainly, but also switching back again. why not in this game. and whats with the obsession with story. I hate it when a game force syou to do quests. that was the worst thing about the other games. they would have been awsome if every feature was unolocked from the start. the forced missions broke the entire game for me. i hate that bioware is the company that makes the new starwars mmo. whats your ideas about this.
You also picked three independent games to prod at. We've not seen a AAA company do a sandbox MMO since SWG. It's a pipe dream at this point, I suppose. The genre is turning over for the money grabbers as of late and innovation is taking a backseat.
This is my point of contention here. A sandbox game hasn't been made by a company who actually had the funds to make an MMO since SWG. Yet in the time since ALL AAA companies have made nothing but themeparks. If at least ONE AAA comapny would put together a solid sandbox game I would happily move there and STFU about why aren't there at least one AAA made sandbox game in the last 6 years.
I look at it a lot like the format wars between HD and blue-ray. Go back farther to Laser-disc vs CD or even later to VHS vs beta.
It's really no different, look at UO compared to EQ. Look at SWG compared to WOW, theme-park won the design WAR. Be it out of popularity or ease of maintenance. Theme-park design won, sandbox design lost.
Since then we have seen countless AAA attempts at theme-park design. What they have to be realizing is, the time for something different has arrived. Be it a sandbox redux or something that Bioware is attempting. We're about to see (I'm sure) attempts made at something different.
Maybe it's a change of scenery like Funcom is attempting with TSW, maybe it's what ever (THQ?) comes up with for 40K. Something will come out that catches on and ends the saturation of the market with fantasy based theme-park games.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You also picked three independent games to prod at. We've not seen a AAA company do a sandbox MMO since SWG. It's a pipe dream at this point, I suppose. The genre is turning over for the money grabbers as of late and innovation is taking a backseat.
CCP may not have been AAA prior to EVE, but they sure are now. Is EVE still disqualified for where it started, despite where it is?
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
ther are classes. there is from what ive gathered [tell me if im wrong] a forced story.
these are core features of the classic themepark
and i completely and utterly hat forced story. so if any one here says it might not be themepark, there has t be a new classification ive never heard of.
Have you even watched any interviews or read any information about the game? If so you'd know that you don't get the same story. Your actions determine the story you get. You may piss off a quest giver and lose that story arc, thus missing out on some other ending.
You also picked three independent games to prod at. We've not seen a AAA company do a sandbox MMO since SWG. It's a pipe dream at this point, I suppose. The genre is turning over for the money grabbers as of late and innovation is taking a backseat.
CCP may not have been AAA prior to EVE, but they sure are now. Is EVE still disqualified for where it started, despite where it is?
Not at all, but one very niche game isn't enough to really break a precedent. You are right, though.
Originally posted by darkwarhamme Have you even watched any interviews or read any information about the game? If so you'd know that you don't get the same story. Your actions determine the story you get. You may piss off a quest giver and lose that story arc, thus missing out on some other ending.
And you think those "choices" will adversely affect character development? I highly doubt it.
You also picked three independent games to prod at. We've not seen a AAA company do a sandbox MMO since SWG. It's a pipe dream at this point, I suppose. The genre is turning over for the money grabbers as of late and innovation is taking a backseat.
CCP may not have been AAA prior to EVE, but they sure are now. Is EVE still disqualified for where it started, despite where it is?
I consider EVE to be an exception rather than a rule to gauge by. Simply because of it's place in gaming as a whole. Games of it's ilk vanished years ago, with few games offering what they did and doing it well. Yes people can look at EVE and say hey it's kind of like UO. However it is based on older space trading sims like elite, freelancer etc...
The lack of polished well thought out games like this IMO helps EVE carry the subscriber numbers they have over the years. Yes EVE is a sandbox by most definitions of. However it's far more than that, it is not the same type of game Darkfall is or SWG/UO were.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
I may have to give up my seat at the STO forum theater and bring my popcorn over here to watch this entertainment.
I totally disagree with you, for one even the mmo's that have added story through the use of quests have not done nearly as good a job of it as have many console games so until they can reach that quaility I don't even give these themeparks credit for the quests they hoist up so I for one am excited to see an mmo with a strong story line element to it.
I've never fealt forced to do anything in any mmo if I chose to level a guy simply by grinding mobs it is possible and I've done it in round about ways many times over.
For me video games are an escape very similar to reading a good book and who wants to read a book with no story to it? Or better yet who goes and picks up a Steven King book and then get pissed that the pages aren't blank so that ya know I can write my own story.
With the addition of sandbox tools there is no reason why these playstyles can't coexist and while that would be my first choice I woiuld certainly not advice Bioware or Lucas Arts for that matter to let the next Star Wars mmo be another watered down version of every other community fight fest we have, or better yet since that is going to happen no matter what kind of game you make why not atleast design one that makes money?
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Non-instanced world, key points in your story are instanced, these flashpoints are repeatable. Is that heavily instanced to you? Sounds kinda WoWish to me in terms of how instancing is used. Not many people are sweating this. Maybe here, but here....lol....yeah, who cares about most of the people here.
They said 95% of the content is intended for a solo player to complete. You get NPC companions so you don't NEED a group to get through this content. The content is story based and instanced.
How in satans holy hell do you think that's going to be a sandbox?
Add in the fact that every single Bioware game made in the past 12 years has been a linear storyline based single player game.... it doesn't take a genius to figure it out.
Since when does Sandbox = group play? Personally, I'm a fan of both styles, themepark and sandbox. As long as they do an awesome job in either style, I'm a happy GAMER. If you don't like themeparks at all, don't bother watching the game's development and commenting on it. Just move on.
Most of the sandboxes that I have played (okay, both of them) Ryzom and Fallen Earth were 95% solo. Leveling in a themepark like WoW or WAR was 50/50 and end-game is almost 90% grouping. That's what I want in a mmo
A witty saying proves nothing.
-Voltaire
I think if the instancing is used sparingly, it will be fine. But if it is implemented as a core feature to the point that it fractures the feel of an expansive space, minimizing the 'massively' of community social game-play, like Champions and STO, then BioWare will get the niche audience their catering to in that regard.
Striving for Silver Stars since Gold is so effeminate.
Straight from the developers' mouth........10% of the game is instanced. Stop beating the dead horse, it's had enough.
Straight from the developers' mouth........10% of the game is instanced. Stop beating the dead horse, it's had enough.
Link it, or it didnt happen.
Thats good news if thats the case, but we really should have a qualified link so we can bookmark it for future reference.
Striving for Silver Stars since Gold is so effeminate.
Straight from the developers' mouth........10% of the game is instanced. Stop beating the dead horse, it's had enough.
Link it, or it didnt happen.
Thats good news if thats the case, but we really should have a qualified link so we can bookmark it for future reference.
Everything has been linked several times. If you want more information check the nice stickies at the top of the SWTOR board.
It would be a waste to link anything more at this point since no one has checked all the other links in this thread and others. Its hard to debate against people who don't even do any research, at this point it is just kneejerk reactions.
Also, if anyone has noticed the OP has not commented once on his own topic. Furthermore, if you check his posts he posted a similar topic about themeparks elsewhere on the boards, and never returned. The OP knew what would happen when he posted this thread.
I have'nt really played a bioware rpg or kotor game I did'nt totally get wrapped up in and play through multiple times "except dragon age", and so far I don't see any reason this one will be any different. Honestly I'm not so sure this one is really directed towards traditional mmo gamers so much as the ginormous numbers of people who've bought their rpgs.
Since it's been anounced that it's going to have a wide open player world with some instances for quests or "raids" the only things that concern me are economy/crafting, housing, space and pvp because I have'nt heard anything definative about any of those....ideally I'd like to see the game have those elements closer to something like swg, that would really make this the ultimate game.
Geesh ,i think i agree with most of the posters
I don't like a story driven game,but i do like a story.I also do not like a game that feels or plays like a single player game.I also realize Bioware is out to make money a lot more so than creating a great game.
One thing i do not agree on is that is where the money is.People are buying games because of hype/marketing or following a developer they already like or because of a named product like STO/SWG ect ect.
The named IP's have the easiest chance to make a great game,because they basically already have a story and direction to follow from a movie/book or tv series.I think no matter what type of direction STOR takes,many will blindly buy it and follow it.So in saying that,Bioware has a great chance to try some unique ideas,as imo MOST now a days are sick of the old linear gaming path.
This may be Bioware's mistake,to a new MMORPG player a story driven linear quest design is what they are used to,and probably to Bioware it seems all ok,however they will not retain any high numbers based on noobs alone,they will need to create something for us fussy vets who have done it all seen it all before.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
People are so quick to throw around the word "Themepark" specially on a game no one has played yet..
How is Bioware's quest design linear? From what I have heard your decisions made while going through a quest dialogue effect which quest you get, and which quests you might get after that. Doesn't sound all that linear to me. Sounds easy enough for said "noobs" to get into the game, but also enough variety in the story for "veterans" to sink into.
Overall i'm not too sure what people are looking for in this game. Sandbox Star Wars was already done, and nostalgia has set in, but lets face it, it obviously wasn't good enough. I loved SWG, but that didn't stop me from leaving several times. A lot of us build up the perfect image of a game we once played as being the epitome of games, but was it really that great? If so why isn't/wasn't anyone playing it? Since a sandbox version of the IP was already done, why not look forward to a non-sandbox version of the IP? Why not give a chance to a developer that has proven they aren't afraid of making new IPs, and stepping outside of their comfort zone? Bioware has proven time and time again they can go outside their roots, DnD based games, and make something great.
Can you really pre-judge the success or failure of a company like Bioware based on the failures of other companies that have tried their hands at MMO's?
When was the last time those fussy vets actually logged into a game, and attempted to enjoy it for what it was, rather than hate it for what it wasn't?
Sorry if I were a designer the last people's opinion I'd worry about would be the "fussy vets". Wanna know what company has ignored them the most? Blizzard
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Bioware has only ever made linear story based games, heavily focused on the single player game.
This MMO is going to be exactly that. It's all they know how to do. Granted, this won't really be an MMO, but it'll make money, and people will probably try to copy it, and even though the MMO market kind of died with WoW, we can say goodbye to it forever if this game succeeds.
If theme parks is where the money is at how come every release since WOW has fell flat? Player base disappearing after 1-3 months? If they are so profitable why am I Not playing them?
What about Mortal Online? Darkfall? Fallen Earth?
All sandboxish titles, none of them above 10k subs. Compared to those numbers AOC's 100k subs are sex in a box.
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
You also picked three independent games to prod at. We've not seen a AAA company do a sandbox MMO since SWG.
It's a pipe dream at this point, I suppose. The genre is turning over for the money grabbers as of late and innovation is taking a backseat.
What about Mortal Online? Darkfall? Fallen Earth?
All sandboxish titles, none of them above 10k subs. Compared to those numbers AOC's 100k subs are sex in a box.
Too true...
It's either a matter of being unable to accept your preferences aren't universal, or a lack of understanding of the importance of popularity when it comes to selling a product.
Sandboxes as they are known today, are even less popular to the majority, than the theme-park games everyone loves to hate on this site.
Unless you can go around smackin' bitches, blowing up police helicopters and pimp'n your hoes, open ended gaming just isn't popular to the casual, every day gamer.
Unless it requires farming crops, of course....
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
This is my point of contention here. A sandbox game hasn't been made by a company who actually had the funds to make an MMO since SWG. Yet in the time since ALL AAA companies have made nothing but themeparks. If at least ONE AAA comapny would put together a solid sandbox game I would happily move there and STFU about why aren't there at least one AAA made sandbox game in the last 6 years.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
ther are classes. there is from what ive gathered [tell me if im wrong] a forced story.
these are core features of the classic themepark
and i completely and utterly hat forced story. so if any one here says it might not be themepark, there has t be a new classification ive never heard of.
I dont have an idea because my brain asploded.
This is my point of contention here. A sandbox game hasn't been made by a company who actually had the funds to make an MMO since SWG. Yet in the time since ALL AAA companies have made nothing but themeparks. If at least ONE AAA comapny would put together a solid sandbox game I would happily move there and STFU about why aren't there at least one AAA made sandbox game in the last 6 years.
I look at it a lot like the format wars between HD and blue-ray. Go back farther to Laser-disc vs CD or even later to VHS vs beta.
It's really no different, look at UO compared to EQ. Look at SWG compared to WOW, theme-park won the design WAR. Be it out of popularity or ease of maintenance. Theme-park design won, sandbox design lost.
Since then we have seen countless AAA attempts at theme-park design. What they have to be realizing is, the time for something different has arrived. Be it a sandbox redux or something that Bioware is attempting. We're about to see (I'm sure) attempts made at something different.
Maybe it's a change of scenery like Funcom is attempting with TSW, maybe it's what ever (THQ?) comes up with for 40K. Something will come out that catches on and ends the saturation of the market with fantasy based theme-park games.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
CCP may not have been AAA prior to EVE, but they sure are now. Is EVE still disqualified for where it started, despite where it is?
Have you even watched any interviews or read any information about the game? If so you'd know that you don't get the same story. Your actions determine the story you get. You may piss off a quest giver and lose that story arc, thus missing out on some other ending.
Not at all, but one very niche game isn't enough to really break a precedent. You are right, though.
And you think those "choices" will adversely affect character development? I highly doubt it.
CCP may not have been AAA prior to EVE, but they sure are now. Is EVE still disqualified for where it started, despite where it is?
I consider EVE to be an exception rather than a rule to gauge by. Simply because of it's place in gaming as a whole. Games of it's ilk vanished years ago, with few games offering what they did and doing it well. Yes people can look at EVE and say hey it's kind of like UO. However it is based on older space trading sims like elite, freelancer etc...
The lack of polished well thought out games like this IMO helps EVE carry the subscriber numbers they have over the years. Yes EVE is a sandbox by most definitions of. However it's far more than that, it is not the same type of game Darkfall is or SWG/UO were.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson