It is obviously not intended as the skills themselves, and the way you consume them, are clearly are designed for a system that offers unlimited SPs. Example - there are skills for each tier of ship - this makes sense in a game with unlimited SPs as you spend points making you better in that long range sci ship since it is beneficial as you work through that tier. However, once you are on to the next tier those points are wasted in a system with limited SPs available. Weapon skills also expose this circumstance. Phasers and disrupters are in a different tier of skills than are Tetryon and Plasma, so you can increase your phaser/disruptor skills are a substantial 'discount' in SP cost verse tetryon/plasma weapons. That discount increases exponentially for the remaining weapon types each tier past that, two more if I recall correctly ending up with something like triple the cost of the most expensive verse the least expensive and these are weapons with no innate additional strength just different secondary attributes but balanced otherwise (i.e. phaser does same dmg as tetryon, phaser has proc to disable a sub system and tetryon has proc to do shld dmg). There are more examples too.
The short of it is that all through the skill tree you can see built in obsolescence to entire blocks of skills simply due to the change from no skill point cap to a skill point cap. It is obvious and really beyond argument and it is in need of a complete overhaul or a substantial portion of the skills trees are useless and pointless.
Agreed. Most of us felt that the non-capped skill point system was a major selling point, and the devs even touted it that way. They talked about how you could go back and train different ships at max level because you'd always have a supply of points. And, you could train up all the different weapon types so that you could switch back and forth as you saw fit. Anyone who has put points into plasma weapon training because a cool beam dropped, only to find out that they prefer the way polaron or anti-proton weapons work later in the game, will absolutely scream at this system when they find out they don't have enough points at RA5 to make their current load-out effective.
I do understand the logic behind the cap change, but it still doesn't change the fact that this system was designed to be limitless and it can't handle being capped.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
It is obviously not intended as the skills themselves, and the way you consume them, are clearly are designed for a system that offers unlimited SPs. Example - there are skills for each tier of ship - this makes sense in a game with unlimited SPs as you spend points making you better in that long range sci ship since it is beneficial as you work through that tier. However, once you are on to the next tier those points are wasted in a system with limited SPs available. Weapon skills also expose this circumstance. Phasers and disrupters are in a different tier of skills than are Tetryon and Plasma, so you can increase your phaser/disruptor skills are a substantial 'discount' in SP cost verse tetryon/plasma weapons. That discount increases exponentially for the remaining weapon types each tier past that, two more if I recall correctly ending up with something like triple the cost of the most expensive verse the least expensive and these are weapons with no innate additional strength just different secondary attributes but balanced otherwise (i.e. phaser does same dmg as tetryon, phaser has proc to disable a sub system and tetryon has proc to do shld dmg). There are more examples too.
The short of it is that all through the skill tree you can see built in obsolescence to entire blocks of skills simply due to the change from no skill point cap to a skill point cap. It is obvious and really beyond argument and it is in need of a complete overhaul or a substantial portion of the skills trees are useless and pointless.
Agreed. Most of us felt that the non-capped skill point system was a major selling point, and the devs even touted it that way. They talked about how you could go back and train different ships at max level because you'd always have a supply of points. And, you could train up all the different weapon types so that you could switch back and forth as you saw fit. Anyone who has put points into plasma weapon training because a cool beam dropped, only to find out that they prefer the way polaron or anti-proton weapons work later in the game, will absolutely scream at this system when they find out they don't have enough points at RA5 to make their current load-out effective.
I do understand the logic behind the cap change, but it still doesn't change the fact that this system was designed to be limitless and it can't handle being capped.
which is why they are looking at it again and making changes to parts of it.
which is all well and good, and correct as anyone in game can see. but this has nothing to do with the OP, who tried and failed to start yet another mud slinging contest.
I don't think the OP was mud slinging - he was commenting on the topic de jor which is Cryptic's game development and management issues. IN this skill thing you see just about everything Cryptic does that messes up their games. The change, the angering of fans, the denial or any mistake or even change. I mean if they really believed it was wrong with no skill point cap then stand by that call, and put in the work to make it right (i.e. fixing the things like I described above). Instead, they make a half baked change despite the hype of no skill cap right up to live and then they try to act like it was not a change but intended all along. It is just ridiculous and the attitude and mismanagement that is behind such actions is exactly the reason both Champion's and STO are troubled games with frustrated fans.
You mean like this?
"Liquidisim: The starship skills such as Heavy Escort, do those carry thru to higher level ships such as fleet escort. If they apply only to t3 ships, then there is no point in having those skills come endgame.
There is hardly no point, though these skills currently become less useful in the endgame. However, we are in the process of changing this. All ship skills will grant some bonus to the ship above it. So an Assault Cruiser will benefit from Starship Captain, Cruiser Captain, Heavy Cruiser Captain, Exploration Cruiser Captain and Assault Cruiser Captain, but it will get the most benefit from Assault Cruiser Captain Skill. So if you want to maximize your Assault Cruiser, you will need all those skills. Note, the Assault Cruiser will not gain any benefit from the Star Cruiser Captain skill and vice-versa. The bonuses only affect ships upwards along the tree, not laterally."
Translation: Yes, those skills are useless and where designed for a system with no skill point cap; however, at some point we intend to change it so they are not broken and useless due to our last minute change from no skill point cap to a skill point cap.
His own answer confirms what I said with his use of "will", meaning it doesn't now but they claim it "will" at some point. I think it is pretty lame going live with a broken skill system that "will" work in the theoretical future so the criticism is valid. Moreover, for things like the weapons skills, and others, the flaw is even more pronounced as I described.
It is obviously not intended as the skills themselves, and the way you consume them, are clearly are designed for a system that offers unlimited SPs. Example - there are skills for each tier of ship - this makes sense in a game with unlimited SPs as you spend points making you better in that long range sci ship since it is beneficial as you work through that tier. However, once you are on to the next tier those points are wasted in a system with limited SPs available. Weapon skills also expose this circumstance. Phasers and disrupters are in a different tier of skills than are Tetryon and Plasma, so you can increase your phaser/disruptor skills are a substantial 'discount' in SP cost verse tetryon/plasma weapons. That discount increases exponentially for the remaining weapon types each tier past that, two more if I recall correctly ending up with something like triple the cost of the most expensive verse the least expensive and these are weapons with no innate additional strength just different secondary attributes but balanced otherwise (i.e. phaser does same dmg as tetryon, phaser has proc to disable a sub system and tetryon has proc to do shld dmg). There are more examples too.
The short of it is that all through the skill tree you can see built in obsolescence to entire blocks of skills simply due to the change from no skill point cap to a skill point cap. It is obvious and really beyond argument and it is in need of a complete overhaul or a substantial portion of the skills trees are useless and pointless.
Agreed. Most of us felt that the non-capped skill point system was a major selling point, and the devs even touted it that way. They talked about how you could go back and train different ships at max level because you'd always have a supply of points. And, you could train up all the different weapon types so that you could switch back and forth as you saw fit. Anyone who has put points into plasma weapon training because a cool beam dropped, only to find out that they prefer the way polaron or anti-proton weapons work later in the game, will absolutely scream at this system when they find out they don't have enough points at RA5 to make their current load-out effective.
I do understand the logic behind the cap change, but it still doesn't change the fact that this system was designed to be limitless and it can't handle being capped.
which is why they are looking at it again and making changes to parts of it.
All fine and dandy but the time to look at it and make changes was when they considered/made the change that implemented a skill cap. In doing one without the other they are demonstrating their reckless indifference to proper development and in claiming now that it was intended they are demonstrating their lack of honesty with the community.
It is obviously not intended as the skills themselves, and the way you consume them, are clearly are designed for a system that offers unlimited SPs. Example - there are skills for each tier of ship - this makes sense in a game with unlimited SPs as you spend points making you better in that long range sci ship since it is beneficial as you work through that tier. However, once you are on to the next tier those points are wasted in a system with limited SPs available. Weapon skills also expose this circumstance. Phasers and disrupters are in a different tier of skills than are Tetryon and Plasma, so you can increase your phaser/disruptor skills are a substantial 'discount' in SP cost verse tetryon/plasma weapons. That discount increases exponentially for the remaining weapon types each tier past that, two more if I recall correctly ending up with something like triple the cost of the most expensive verse the least expensive and these are weapons with no innate additional strength just different secondary attributes but balanced otherwise (i.e. phaser does same dmg as tetryon, phaser has proc to disable a sub system and tetryon has proc to do shld dmg). There are more examples too.
The short of it is that all through the skill tree you can see built in obsolescence to entire blocks of skills simply due to the change from no skill point cap to a skill point cap. It is obvious and really beyond argument and it is in need of a complete overhaul or a substantial portion of the skills trees are useless and pointless.
Agreed. Most of us felt that the non-capped skill point system was a major selling point, and the devs even touted it that way. They talked about how you could go back and train different ships at max level because you'd always have a supply of points. And, you could train up all the different weapon types so that you could switch back and forth as you saw fit. Anyone who has put points into plasma weapon training because a cool beam dropped, only to find out that they prefer the way polaron or anti-proton weapons work later in the game, will absolutely scream at this system when they find out they don't have enough points at RA5 to make their current load-out effective.
I do understand the logic behind the cap change, but it still doesn't change the fact that this system was designed to be limitless and it can't handle being capped.
which is why they are looking at it again and making changes to parts of it.
All fine and dandy but the time to look at it and make changes was when they considered/made the change that implemented a skill cap. In doing one without the other they are demonstrating their reckless indifference to proper development and in claiming now that it was intended they are demonstrating their lack of honesty with the community.
Can you link the part were it is stated by cryptic that from the moment the game was conceived they intended to have a skill cap? The "intended" part is the fact that they made a late change in beta and deliberately changed to a skill cap system. Was it a great move that was well planned? No. Is it all lies, smoke and mirrors like you try to make out? No.
Can you link the part were it is stated by cryptic that from the moment the game was conceived they intended to have a skill cap? The "intended" part is the fact that they made a late change in beta and deliberately changed to a skill cap system. Was it a great move that was well planned? No. Is it all lies, smoke and mirrors like you try to make out? No.
I didn't make it out to be anything other than a example of Cryptic's characteristically sloppy development and their propensity to offer more spin than production. Again, if they felt the change was needed to fine - make the change along with whatever changes are needed to support the skill cap. Instead, they make the change last minute and go live without the fixes to make the system work properly with the change and then they offer spin instead of fixes as the problems become obvious. It isn't about lies and smoke and mirrors, it is simply about poor development, ill conceived and poorly executed changes, from a company that is again showing itself to be all about marketing and very little about developing. If Cryptic spent half the time and effort actually developing their games as they do trying to explain away shortcomings their simplistic, content challenged, pseudo MMOs might actually be less criticized. But again, this is what happens when you couple 2 years of 'development', instead of 4+, with a game engine that is ill suited to the genre they keep using it for (MMOs).
Can you link the part were it is stated by cryptic that from the moment the game was conceived they intended to have a skill cap? The "intended" part is the fact that they made a late change in beta and deliberately changed to a skill cap system. Was it a great move that was well planned? No. Is it all lies, smoke and mirrors like you try to make out? No.
Is this a typo? The point is Cryptic never intended the skill cap in place, until late CB, when they removed the last 5 levels and put the cap in place. Up until then, the capless system was actively touted by the company as a selling point. There are still FAQs around that state this. So no link can show it was intended all along, in fact, there was a lot of hype about no skill cap.
The fact that they put a cap in place very late in development, but didn't alter the "trees" to work with a capped system is further proof it wasn't designed for a cap, one was shoe horned in.
Further, there was no notice of the cap, it was just patched in, and I was there when it happened, the boards went nuts, and to this day they haven't addressed it, except to try and spin that it was intended.
If it was intended, then they were lying to everyone in the pre release hype.
You can see a couple dev responses here. Yep, they now claim it was intended all along. What do you guys think?
If it was intended it was implemented very poorly as the second you reach admiral you don't have enough points for anything. It is pretty funny in that sense. The skills are a very implement in the game and if anything is its downfall it will be the lack of creativity allowed within skill trees at higher lvls.
Comments
Agreed. Most of us felt that the non-capped skill point system was a major selling point, and the devs even touted it that way. They talked about how you could go back and train different ships at max level because you'd always have a supply of points. And, you could train up all the different weapon types so that you could switch back and forth as you saw fit. Anyone who has put points into plasma weapon training because a cool beam dropped, only to find out that they prefer the way polaron or anti-proton weapons work later in the game, will absolutely scream at this system when they find out they don't have enough points at RA5 to make their current load-out effective.
I do understand the logic behind the cap change, but it still doesn't change the fact that this system was designed to be limitless and it can't handle being capped.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
Agreed. Most of us felt that the non-capped skill point system was a major selling point, and the devs even touted it that way. They talked about how you could go back and train different ships at max level because you'd always have a supply of points. And, you could train up all the different weapon types so that you could switch back and forth as you saw fit. Anyone who has put points into plasma weapon training because a cool beam dropped, only to find out that they prefer the way polaron or anti-proton weapons work later in the game, will absolutely scream at this system when they find out they don't have enough points at RA5 to make their current load-out effective.
I do understand the logic behind the cap change, but it still doesn't change the fact that this system was designed to be limitless and it can't handle being capped.
which is why they are looking at it again and making changes to parts of it.
which is all well and good, and correct as anyone in game can see. but this has nothing to do with the OP, who tried and failed to start yet another mud slinging contest.
I don't think the OP was mud slinging - he was commenting on the topic de jor which is Cryptic's game development and management issues. IN this skill thing you see just about everything Cryptic does that messes up their games. The change, the angering of fans, the denial or any mistake or even change. I mean if they really believed it was wrong with no skill point cap then stand by that call, and put in the work to make it right (i.e. fixing the things like I described above). Instead, they make a half baked change despite the hype of no skill cap right up to live and then they try to act like it was not a change but intended all along. It is just ridiculous and the attitude and mismanagement that is behind such actions is exactly the reason both Champion's and STO are troubled games with frustrated fans.
You mean like this?
"Liquidisim: The starship skills such as Heavy Escort, do those carry thru to higher level ships such as fleet escort. If they apply only to t3 ships, then there is no point in having those skills come endgame.
There is hardly no point, though these skills currently become less useful in the endgame. However, we are in the process of changing this. All ship skills will grant some bonus to the ship above it. So an Assault Cruiser will benefit from Starship Captain, Cruiser Captain, Heavy Cruiser Captain, Exploration Cruiser Captain and Assault Cruiser Captain, but it will get the most benefit from Assault Cruiser Captain Skill. So if you want to maximize your Assault Cruiser, you will need all those skills. Note, the Assault Cruiser will not gain any benefit from the Star Cruiser Captain skill and vice-versa. The bonuses only affect ships upwards along the tree, not laterally."
http://www.startrekonline.com/node/1158
Translation: Yes, those skills are useless and where designed for a system with no skill point cap; however, at some point we intend to change it so they are not broken and useless due to our last minute change from no skill point cap to a skill point cap.
His own answer confirms what I said with his use of "will", meaning it doesn't now but they claim it "will" at some point. I think it is pretty lame going live with a broken skill system that "will" work in the theoretical future so the criticism is valid. Moreover, for things like the weapons skills, and others, the flaw is even more pronounced as I described.
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Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
Agreed. Most of us felt that the non-capped skill point system was a major selling point, and the devs even touted it that way. They talked about how you could go back and train different ships at max level because you'd always have a supply of points. And, you could train up all the different weapon types so that you could switch back and forth as you saw fit. Anyone who has put points into plasma weapon training because a cool beam dropped, only to find out that they prefer the way polaron or anti-proton weapons work later in the game, will absolutely scream at this system when they find out they don't have enough points at RA5 to make their current load-out effective.
I do understand the logic behind the cap change, but it still doesn't change the fact that this system was designed to be limitless and it can't handle being capped.
which is why they are looking at it again and making changes to parts of it.
All fine and dandy but the time to look at it and make changes was when they considered/made the change that implemented a skill cap. In doing one without the other they are demonstrating their reckless indifference to proper development and in claiming now that it was intended they are demonstrating their lack of honesty with the community.
--------------------------------
Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
Agreed. Most of us felt that the non-capped skill point system was a major selling point, and the devs even touted it that way. They talked about how you could go back and train different ships at max level because you'd always have a supply of points. And, you could train up all the different weapon types so that you could switch back and forth as you saw fit. Anyone who has put points into plasma weapon training because a cool beam dropped, only to find out that they prefer the way polaron or anti-proton weapons work later in the game, will absolutely scream at this system when they find out they don't have enough points at RA5 to make their current load-out effective.
I do understand the logic behind the cap change, but it still doesn't change the fact that this system was designed to be limitless and it can't handle being capped.
which is why they are looking at it again and making changes to parts of it.
All fine and dandy but the time to look at it and make changes was when they considered/made the change that implemented a skill cap. In doing one without the other they are demonstrating their reckless indifference to proper development and in claiming now that it was intended they are demonstrating their lack of honesty with the community.
Can you link the part were it is stated by cryptic that from the moment the game was conceived they intended to have a skill cap? The "intended" part is the fact that they made a late change in beta and deliberately changed to a skill cap system. Was it a great move that was well planned? No. Is it all lies, smoke and mirrors like you try to make out? No.
I didn't make it out to be anything other than a example of Cryptic's characteristically sloppy development and their propensity to offer more spin than production. Again, if they felt the change was needed to fine - make the change along with whatever changes are needed to support the skill cap. Instead, they make the change last minute and go live without the fixes to make the system work properly with the change and then they offer spin instead of fixes as the problems become obvious. It isn't about lies and smoke and mirrors, it is simply about poor development, ill conceived and poorly executed changes, from a company that is again showing itself to be all about marketing and very little about developing. If Cryptic spent half the time and effort actually developing their games as they do trying to explain away shortcomings their simplistic, content challenged, pseudo MMOs might actually be less criticized. But again, this is what happens when you couple 2 years of 'development', instead of 4+, with a game engine that is ill suited to the genre they keep using it for (MMOs).
--------------------------------
Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
Can you link the part were it is stated by cryptic that from the moment the game was conceived they intended to have a skill cap? The "intended" part is the fact that they made a late change in beta and deliberately changed to a skill cap system. Was it a great move that was well planned? No. Is it all lies, smoke and mirrors like you try to make out? No.
Is this a typo? The point is Cryptic never intended the skill cap in place, until late CB, when they removed the last 5 levels and put the cap in place. Up until then, the capless system was actively touted by the company as a selling point. There are still FAQs around that state this. So no link can show it was intended all along, in fact, there was a lot of hype about no skill cap.
The fact that they put a cap in place very late in development, but didn't alter the "trees" to work with a capped system is further proof it wasn't designed for a cap, one was shoe horned in.
Further, there was no notice of the cap, it was just patched in, and I was there when it happened, the boards went nuts, and to this day they haven't addressed it, except to try and spin that it was intended.
If it was intended, then they were lying to everyone in the pre release hype.
If it wasn't intended, then they are lying now.
If it was intended it was implemented very poorly as the second you reach admiral you don't have enough points for anything. It is pretty funny in that sense. The skills are a very implement in the game and if anything is its downfall it will be the lack of creativity allowed within skill trees at higher lvls.