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What happened to the best class system ever..

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  • AlberelAlberel Member Posts: 1,121

    The devs scrapped the sub-job system because of how players were literally forced to level jobs they hated in order to be allowed into parties with the jobs they enjoyed (/NIN anyone?)

    The devs have stated in several interviews for XIV that a character's class is not a rigid structure... they've made a point of the fact that you can cross skills over from one to the other based on what you've already learnt. I keep seeing people debate why there's no paladin or dark knight in at release, etc. when both of those jobs (and many other popular ones) are in, they simply require players to combine their skills in certain combinations.

    I recall an interview somewhere in which the devs spoke about 'titles' that reflected a players' build. They made it pretty clear, imo, that some of these titles could include favourites from XI.

    People need to understand that despite being called 'classes' these are nothing like the typical class system we see in modern MMOs. They're honestly closer a skill based system.

  • Rogue_LeaderRogue_Leader Member Posts: 119
    Originally posted by Alberel


    People need to understand that despite being called 'classes' these are nothing like the typical class system we see in modern MMOs. They're honestly closer a skill based system.

     

    To toss my hat in the speculation ring: It sounds like more of a hybrid system to me.  A bit like FF Tactics.

    There are classes and levels in Tactics, and as you level you gain class (or job) points in addition to basic levels.  You could spend the class points to permanently learn skills (both active and passive.)

    An example of a passive skill: +2 Jumping height.

    An example of an active skill: Fire spell.

    In tactics you could equip an entire skill set (much like a sub-job in FFXI.)  Any skill in the set you'd purchased with class points was usable as long as you had the required resources (unlike sub-jobs in FFXI.)

    It sounds like FFXIV is even more open.  Instead of picking an entire skill set you can pick individual skills.  This is a little reminiscant of FFIX where you learned skills from your weapons and then could equip them.  I'll be curious to see how they limit how many skills you can equip.  In FFIX your weapons had skill slots.

    If you'll indulge my guessing:

    Option 1: it may be like FF:Tactics where you can equip a limited number of passive and active skills.  Say you've unlocked the passive skills "Heavy Armor" and "Black Magic Focus."  You can only equip one of them.  So if you want to wear heavy armor (i.e. plate) on your black mage you're giving up the extra damage you could get via "Black Magic Focus."  

    If, however, you wanted to make a hybrid caster you could equip a white mage weapon, some white and black magic, and "Black Magic Focus."  A self-made Red Mage.  (You could focus on buffing / debuffing spells to complete the transformation =P)

    Option 2: Alternately they could take a page directly from FFIX and you'll equip skills directly on your gear.  They could limit the type of skills you can equip on certain equip and/or have equipment give bonuses to certain skills.  In this case wearing plate armor with a caster weapon means giving up skill slots that you could equip mage skills in and/or giving up bonuses to the skills you equip in the armor.

     

    Option 2 sounds more interesting to me, but it does create more variables for Square to keep track of and keep balanced.

     

  • MMOman101MMOman101 Member UncommonPosts: 1,786

    People scream for innovation in MMOs and scream when things change.  You cannot have it both ways. 

    Just wait for it to come out.  It might be better, it might not, only time will tell.

    “It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”

    --John Ruskin







  • AlberelAlberel Member Posts: 1,121
    Originally posted by Rogue_Leader

    Originally posted by Alberel


    People need to understand that despite being called 'classes' these are nothing like the typical class system we see in modern MMOs. They're honestly closer a skill based system.

     

    To toss my hat in the speculation ring: It sounds like more of a hybrid system to me.  A bit like FF Tactics.

    There are classes and levels in Tactics, and as you level you gain class (or job) points in addition to basic levels.  You could spend the class points to permanently learn skills (both active and passive.)

    An example of a passive skill: +2 Jumping height.

    An example of an active skill: Fire spell.

    In tactics you could equip an entire skill set (much like a sub-job in FFXI.)  Any skill in the set you'd purchased with class points was usable as long as you had the required resources (unlike sub-jobs in FFXI.)

    It sounds like FFXIV is even more open.  Instead of picking an entire skill set you can pick individual skills.  This is a little reminiscant of FFIX where you learned skills from your weapons and then could equip them.  I'll be curious to see how they limit how many skills you can equip.  In FFIX your weapons had skill slots.

    If you'll indulge my guessing:

    Option 1: it may be like FF:Tactics where you can equip a limited number of passive and active skills.  Say you've unlocked the passive skills "Heavy Armor" and "Black Magic Focus."  You can only equip one of them.  So if you want to wear heavy armor (i.e. plate) on your black mage you're giving up the extra damage you could get via "Black Magic Focus."  

    If, however, you wanted to make a hybrid caster you could equip a white mage weapon, some white and black magic, and "Black Magic Focus."  A self-made Red Mage.  (You could focus on buffing / debuffing spells to complete the transformation =P)

    Option 2: Alternately they could take a page directly from FFIX and you'll equip skills directly on your gear.  They could limit the type of skills you can equip on certain equip and/or have equipment give bonuses to certain skills.  In this case wearing plate armor with a caster weapon means giving up skill slots that you could equip mage skills in and/or giving up bonuses to the skills you equip in the armor.

     

    Option 2 sounds more interesting to me, but it does create more variables for Square to keep track of and keep balanced.

     

    Seeing as FFXI's character advancement system is based on one of the original games it would also make sense for FFXIV's to be based on a different system previously seen in the series. I haven't actually played Tactics but I know the skill system and I've seen quite a few people throwing that concept around as a possibility based on what we know. I expect, as you say, that we'll see a unique hybrid of sorts.

  • CrRaymondCrRaymond Member Posts: 1

    Maybe it will be like ff9 where you have a set numbers of crystals, which each skill that you've learned will take a set amount of.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332

    Yes i kind of feel ,with this new system ,players will be leveling all classes equally,so you may find 5 months from now,none of the vets will have any need to go back.

    I really want to see,how the game is played,if it is just another questing game,if they fixed the horrible economy design of FFXI[besides adding more gil finders to a group].I am VERY interested to see crafting,i will be really pissed if they try to add grouping mechanics to crafting,i thought that was maybe the dumbest idea they ever came up with.

    There has been some real weird decisions over the past 4 years at Square,it seems somebody new has got their hand in the cookie jar now,or the old vets are being influenced by somebody,idk gaming sites?family?

    Class system?I think it looks pretty much lie ka copy of FFXI,but they changed the naming and swapped some skills around to give it the appearance of being newish ideas,but they are not.Does not bum me out,i knew they would have run out of new ideas since FFXI had so many great ones.All i have seen so far is the addition of a FEAR mechanic,something we have seen before in other games,so again nothing new.

     

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • HyanmenHyanmen Member UncommonPosts: 5,357
    Originally posted by Wizardry


    Yes i kind of feel ,with this new system ,players will be leveling all classes equally,so you may find 5 months from now,none of the vets will have any need to go back.
    I really want to see,how the game is played,if it is just another questing game,if they fixed the horrible economy design of FFXI[besides adding more gil finders to a group].I am VERY interested to see crafting,i will be really pissed if they try to add grouping mechanics to crafting,i thought that was maybe the dumbest idea they ever came up with.
    There has been some real weird decisions over the past 4 years at Square,it seems somebody new has got their hand in the cookie jar now,or the old vets are being influenced by somebody,idk gaming sites?family?
    Class system?I think it looks pretty much lie ka copy of FFXI,but they changed the naming and swapped some skills around to give it the appearance of being newish ideas,but they are not.Does not bum me out,i knew they would have run out of new ideas since FFXI had so many great ones.All i have seen so far is the addition of a FEAR mechanic,something we have seen before in other games,so again nothing new.
     

    When you're only looking for flaws, it's not uncommon to miss all the good things.

    FFXIV's system is FFXI but done better. Placement makes a difference (fan-shaped AoE of Thaumaturge, donut-shaped AoE's of Marauder), elemental resistances make a difference, you can specialize and not every class is a copy of each other, responsive abilities have a big role (like using a skill right after evading to do great damage), and fights being against many monsters than just one.

    You are ignorant, or just not looking hard enough. 

    Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
  • AlberelAlberel Member Posts: 1,121
    Originally posted by Wizardry


    Yes i kind of feel ,with this new system ,players will be leveling all classes equally,so you may find 5 months from now,none of the vets will have any need to go back.
    I don't see how that is any different from normal MMOs where most players stick to one character. Anyway through this system most players will level 10-20 classes on the same character so I don't really see your point... you're saying that eventually players will have no need to level new classes when the system encourages exactly that far far more than any other MMO on the market.
    I really want to see,how the game is played,if it is just another questing game,if they fixed the horrible economy design of FFXI[besides adding more gil finders to a group].I am VERY interested to see crafting,i will be really pissed if they try to add grouping mechanics to crafting,i thought that was maybe the dumbest idea they ever came up with.
    XI's economy was mostly ruined by RMT, something that SE weren't prepared for back then, and now are very well equipped to combat it having set up a task force especially for it. Don't expect to see them repeat that mistake in XIV.
    As for group crafting, what's wrong with that? We have grouped combat so why not grouped crafting? This sounds more like someone who's too used to the way things are 'supposed' to be done... Anyway XIV has combat based crafting classes. The new details released this week have made it clear the blacksmith will have some use in combat parties, and I've read similar things for other classes (I heard mention somewhere of one of them increasing loot drops for the party).
    There has been some real weird decisions over the past 4 years at Square,it seems somebody new has got their hand in the cookie jar now,or the old vets are being influenced by somebody,idk gaming sites?family?
    Class system?I think it looks pretty much lie ka copy of FFXI,but they changed the naming and swapped some skills around to give it the appearance of being newish ideas,but they are not.Does not bum me out,i knew they would have run out of new ideas since FFXI had so many great ones.All i have seen so far is the addition of a FEAR mechanic,something we have seen before in other games,so again nothing new.
    Like Hyanmen said, it sounds like you're deliberately looking for things to complain about. The new class system is very different to XI's. Most of the classes are hybrids of the old jobs; I think SE are trying to deal with the redundancy issue that so many jobs had in XI. If you take into account the skill customisation they've hinted at in place of sub-jobs  I really don't see how you can argue that it's the same. The combat is now much deeper as well with positioning and elemental properties being important to every mob/class.
    What's the problem exactly? Go read through ALL the info we have on the game before deciding it's a copy/paste job...

     

  • nennafirnennafir Member UncommonPosts: 313
    Originally posted by Alberel


    XI's economy was mostly ruined by RMT, something that SE weren't prepared for back then, and now are very well equipped to combat it having set up a task force especially for it. Don't expect to see them repeat that mistake in XIV.

     



     

    You can't fight RMT if the game has an economy.  This has been shown time and time again.  Either your game has a meaningful economy where valuable things are bought and sold (in which case RMT prospers) or your game has an insignificant economy where the important things are bind on pickup and gold is just for novelties (in which case RMT does not prosper.)  That's it. 

    Attempting to have a real economy means that money is valuable which means that RMT will prosper.  All of the RMT espionage squads in the world aren't going to change this.

    As a great example, look at City of Heroes.  Before inventions, it had almost no RMT to speak of despite being out for several years.  Post inventions, it is infested with them.

  • thinktank001thinktank001 Member UncommonPosts: 2,144
    Originally posted by nennafir


    You can't fight RMT if the game has an economy.  This has been shown time and time again.  Either your game has a meaningful economy where valuable things are bought and sold (in which case RMT prospers) or your game has an insignificant economy where the important things are bind on pickup and gold is just for novelties (in which case RMT does not prosper.)  That's it. 
    Attempting to have a real economy means that money is valuable which means that RMT will prosper.  All of the RMT espionage squads in the world aren't going to change this.
    As a great example, look at City of Heroes.  Before inventions, it had almost no RMT to speak of despite being out for several years.  Post inventions, it is infested with them.



     

     

    Take a look at EVE.  They do a superb job of fighting RMT.  

  • HyanmenHyanmen Member UncommonPosts: 5,357
    Originally posted by nennafir




    You can't fight RMT if the game has an economy.  This has been shown time and time again.  Either your game has a meaningful economy where valuable things are bought and sold (in which case RMT prospers) or your game has an insignificant economy where the important things are bind on pickup and gold is just for novelties (in which case RMT does not prosper.)  That's it. 
    Attempting to have a real economy means that money is valuable which means that RMT will prosper.  All of the RMT espionage squads in the world aren't going to change this.
    As a great example, look at City of Heroes.  Before inventions, it had almost no RMT to speak of despite being out for several years.  Post inventions, it is infested with them.

    RMT is not a big problem at all in FFXI nowadays. The worst they can do is send you /tells that advertise their sites... but you rarely see them around messing up your gameplay or ruining your ways to make gil anymore. However, the downside is that SE has had to nerf some ways to make gil, which hurts normal players as well as RMT.

    Hopefully this time SE can develop the game with RMT in mind... they didn't really think of that possibility when XI was developed.

    Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
  • A-L-S-EA-L-S-E Member Posts: 113

    While I'm a little disappointed that the original system has been tossed out (which, I, too, really enjoyed), It's nice to see something a little different. From what I know so far, it's the weapons that govern which class we are.

    It seems like an OK system, but I've always tended to dislike being forced into doing something in MMO's; In this case, it's weaponry. While most Final Fantasy games seem to pride themselves on the "This Class uses This Weapon" mantra, for an MMO it just seems constricting.

    Personally I enjoy mixing things up (i.e. Mage with a sword, or what have you), but it seems as though this system appears to take that away.

    But, of course, it's too early to judge, really.

    Changes can and probably will be made before everything is said and done.

  • AlberelAlberel Member Posts: 1,121
    Originally posted by nennafir

    Originally posted by Alberel


    XI's economy was mostly ruined by RMT, something that SE weren't prepared for back then, and now are very well equipped to combat it having set up a task force especially for it. Don't expect to see them repeat that mistake in XIV.

     



     

    You can't fight RMT if the game has an economy.  This has been shown time and time again.  Either your game has a meaningful economy where valuable things are bought and sold (in which case RMT prospers) or your game has an insignificant economy where the important things are bind on pickup and gold is just for novelties (in which case RMT does not prosper.)  That's it. 

    Attempting to have a real economy means that money is valuable which means that RMT will prosper.  All of the RMT espionage squads in the world aren't going to change this.

    As a great example, look at City of Heroes.  Before inventions, it had almost no RMT to speak of despite being out for several years.  Post inventions, it is infested with them.

    I know some others have already commented on this but thought I'd add to it. Fighting RMT and just accepting it and doing nothing will have two different outcomes, therefore it is possible to fight RMT as to do so reduces its effect on the economy. You seem to be suggesting just giving up and letting them destroy games?

    When a dev team does nothing to fight RMT you get a game with unusable chat channels due to gold-spam, inflation so high no one but gold buyers can afford anything and no way to make money yourself because the goldfarmers are out botting in force. When a dev team finally does something about it you see all of these symptoms reduced so small they become almost negligible. So yes, you can fight RMT.

    I'd also rather they do it this way than introduce a legitimate RMT system of their own. EVE's system I could accept as everyone benefits, but anything else would be just as bad as doing nothing imo.

  • Miles-ProwerMiles-Prower Member Posts: 1,106

    Getting used to the new class names are my biggest concern. As long as I have a "Paladin" type class like FFXI, I'll be fine.



    ~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!

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  • ValendrosValendros Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 123


    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    FF XI was to me the game with the best class system ever..
     
    Why?
     
    Next to diversity it also made people play lower level content, because you could level different parts of your character there was allways a group to be found, lower level places never felt empty, people allways returened.
     
    I know we will not see this system back in the FF XIV, which makes me kinda sad.


    WTF? REALLY?
    The class system of FFXI is why I keep coming back. Are they INSANE? That class system was the single most innovative and well designed systems ever come up with. The fact it hasn't been copied to every MMO out there isn't a reflection on the system being bad as much as it is on MMO companies greed.

    The fact I can play any job I want and not have to flip characters was like somebody at SE listened to players, understood their gripes, and fixed several with one elegant system that nobody though of (or at least nobody implemented properly) before.

    If FFXIV doesn't include this system, it won't live up to FFXI's legacy, and you're going to lose out on a lot of your loyal fans.


    I'm a sad panda...

  • Joker661Joker661 Member Posts: 36

     Has there been a official statement from SE stating they are scraping the old class system? No... so as far as we no the old class system is still in

  • downtoearthdowntoearth Member Posts: 3,558
    Originally posted by Joker661


     Has there been a official statement from SE stating they are scraping the old class system? No... so as far as we no the old class system is still in



     

    there will be something like it. i think it goes by what type of weapon your weilding

  • A-L-S-EA-L-S-E Member Posts: 113
    Originally posted by downtoearth

    Originally posted by Joker661


     Has there been a official statement from SE stating they are scraping the old class system? No... so as far as we no the old class system is still in



     

    there will be something like it. i think it goes by what type of weapon your weilding

     

    Yes. Gladiators wield Swords/Shields, Lancers wield... Well you know... Lances.

    Whenever you change your weapon, your abilities change to fit the weapon.

    It's a bit odd, but, like I said, too early to tell if it will horrifically suck or not.

  • DemagogueDemagogue Member Posts: 17
    Originally posted by Valendros


     
     
    WTF? REALLY?

    The class system of FFXI is why I keep coming back. Are they INSANE? That class system was the single most innovative and well designed systems ever come up with. The fact it hasn't been copied to every MMO out there isn't a reflection on the system being bad as much as it is on MMO companies greed.
    The fact I can play any job I want and not have to flip characters was like somebody at SE listened to players, understood their gripes, and fixed several with one elegant system that nobody though of (or at least nobody implemented properly) before.
    If FFXIV doesn't include this system, it won't live up to FFXI's legacy, and you're going to lose out on a lot of your loyal fans.


    I'm a sad panda...



     

    You still switch classes on the same character.     No alt spamming like WoW... although you might need mules again!  Lol.

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