Why Shadowbane and UO had the best PVP in an RPG

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  • RajCajRajCaj Lafayette, LAMember UncommonPosts: 703
    Originally posted by demonic87


    I dont know why I came in here not expecting another lame "good old days" nostalgic post. Set myself up for disappointment, so let me get this straight. Those games are OUTDATED. They are no longer fun to today's standards, and PLENTY of mmo' have better PvP than them.



     

    Have you PvP'd in WOW before?  If not, I apologize for the anolgoy....

    By today's standard of PvP fun, are you talking about the ultra terrible play thats on display in any one of the WOW Battlegrounds?

    I'm not sure what's very fun about getting slapped into a group of random people who have no desire to play as a team, nor do they care much about actually working the objectives for the Battleground they queued up for. 

    It's not very fun to bust your butt to capture that tower, only to loose it just before its burned to the ground because the guys on your team are too busy killing NPCs, AFK macroing or off playing in their very own personal death match in some random field.

    It's not very fun when 90% of the people on your team repeat the same failed strategy OVER and OVER and OVER with no consequence.

    If that is today's standard of "Fun" in MMORPG PvP....then yea, those old PvP MMORPG games absolutely do not live up to today's standard.

  • OutaiOutai SaloMember UncommonPosts: 60

     

    I read only till eight page, so I might be just making myself look silly. Anyway, johnmatthais, I like to read your posts and I like how you seem to support indie and old school games, you don't join unnecessary arguments and all in all a reasonable person, but I think how you speak of Darkfall is not really fair. I understand that you don't like it, I don't like it really either, it doesn't have those "old school RPG things" you and I want. It's understandable that you don't like the combat style, but there's many who do, especially younger people. It also is very skill requiring, but it's very different when you compare it to EVE or the like. It's a matter of preference. DF's skill is a lot about physical capabilities (reaction time, precision on hand movement, how fast you can change weapon and spells etc), while EVE is more about knowhow, planning, calculating. DF's type of combat is very much like in a shooter, true, but it's also more complex and FPS games in the first place are (as far as I know) the most played games in different e-sport tournaments. Saying DF is just one huge battleground, people killing eachother is probably quite true, but that's what this thread just is about, PvP, and that what DF does well.

     

    So... just asking if you could cut some slack for DF. I don't think I'm a fanboy, I haven't played in couple of weeks, as I prefer a game with more RPG elements and depth and less sitting at computer skilling up. Take this as friendly advice, I respect you a lot, but this Darkfall hating irks me a bit.

     

    Playing: EVE
    Waiting for: Dawntide

  • bluebawlesbluebawles ft lauid, FLMember Posts: 117

     Destroy did you used to play Asheron's Call around 2001-2002 on Wintersebb and hang around  AlQuabar or something similar?

  • ArqentusArqentus -Member Posts: 30

    Where to begin ...

    It seems that a few people think, going back to UO is a option these days. I hate to disappoint them, but UO is a far cry from what it used to be.

    UO these days, has been toned down, because of children crying how the big bad "red" killed them, and how hard it was. While in reality, those same players, left the game rather faster after they got here chances. It became to easy for them ;)

    Let us look back, and see what made UO different, then most MMORPG's these days:

    A sense of accomplishment:

    Whatever task you took in UO, at the end of it, you felt like you did something useful. You felt part off the world. Even fishing, cooking, and selling your cooked fish, had a goal. And with the nice little surprises while fishing, it at times, had even a addictive level to it.

    The Housing:

    From all my time in other MMORPG's, and beta's. There has not been a single game, that gave me a reason to get a house, like UO. The ability to decorate your house how you wanted, is in my opinion, unmatched.

    To own a house, was a big undertaking. Owning a single small 2*2m house ( 100.000 gold pieces if i remember correctly. Its been a few years ). It was great! Your own house. It gave you something to be proud off.

    And the detail in how you can decorate it. Using benches for planks, stacking small "crap" together, to create a fish tank ( looked like it ;) ). And other things.

    It have the player a identity in the game. Looking at the inside of a players house, and you where able to tell, who that person was.

    PvP Red:

    The big one ... PvP was a interesting thing in UO. Unlike many games where red's are just 12 year old, that need to yell every curse word that they know. In UO, a large part off the red's, used to be mature players.

    Some even helped you, after they killed you. Giving back most off your stuff ( minus the money & reg's ofcourse ;) ). They even resurrected you.

    It has only gone down the shitbucked, when to many kiddies, started complaining to the developers how bad, and evil those red's are. And the red's got nerved several times. In the end, most mature "red" players got fed up, needing to macro there stats back, because off the penalties imposed to them. And then, those same kiddies took there places. We all know the end result, don't we.

    Balance:

    UO, has for a large part, a very good balance. No one class, was master. A swordsman had his ass handed by mages. Mages had there ass handed by swordsman.

    It all came down to tactics. Using explosives, poison, bandages, hiding, running away, using the name indicators to show incoming people to your "screen".

    Basic armor was cheap, and most people had several "spare" bone armor, etc in there bank box, after a few days playing.

    Dead / Punishment:

    Dead was actually a punishment in UO. Full loot, made it so, that you only left town or your house, with what you actually needed! You did not bring your entire house with you, because it was "insured". No... Any basic UO player knew. Armor, Weapon, Regs for Mages, Healing Poisons, Some Bandages, and a few other things.

    For the rest, you did not carry anything else, unless you where transporting something, and then you where 10 times as careful! Every strange name, and you quickly hide ( o yea, hiding was a required skill in UO :) ).

    When you died, it was a long trip back to town. And some state loss ( not as bad as what Red's got after the nerve's ). No instant transportation, no insurance ( at that time ), no other "protection".

    Friendship:

    Now, here is what made UO unique. Unlike most MMORPG's where you end up grouping, because the game forces you to. UO did not force people. There where no quests with xx player limit. If you wanted to try something alone, so be it.

    But the harsh world outside off town, made allies.

    A red killed you? Run back to town, and point the red out. Before you know it, you had a posy going after the guys. Ofcourse, at times, the red's also set traps :)

    You made allies for good reasons. The life outside off the towns was hard. But not impossible.

    The Trill:

    Unlike the dozen or so MMORPG's that i played, there is only one, where my heartbeat reached twice its normal speed. Where adrenaline flooded by body. That was UO. Being chased by red's, and escaping from them... Something that made any person's heart skip a few beats.

    Even today, almost 10 years later? I still remember several encounters. Being chased by 2 red's on horses ( and i did not have one ), in the woods. Hiding, and running each time they got to close for comfort ( if somebody step on the same tile, where somebody was hiding, they got a message. And where able to try "unhiding" you ).

    Using tactics, clever timing, and escaping from those red's. Wow ... It may sound strange reading it, but unless you experienced this feeling. And the feeling only gets bigger, when you are traveling with something expensive in your backback. Like your house deed, before you placed it. Or some money. or goods for your house ...

    Crafting:

    The crafting was great in the game. You switched between your warrior and crafting character. Your crafter was able to make ( basic ) things, and it felt like a accomplishments, after x tries, that you made x item.

    There was a entire economy in place. Money was hard to make, so crafting was a way for players to get those "luxuries".

    Money:

    As stated above. Money was hard to make. Mining was a very dangerous job. Every miner knew how to use the hide skill. That all changed when they introduced the "safe" duplicated world. Why do dangerous mining when you can strip mine a entire cave, and use the stack ore + move ore 10* your carry capability trick. In one hour, you made more, the a entire day or longer, in the "old" world.

    The money system collapsed. Money became easy. Prices increased. Inflation became a daily thing. Before you where able to blink, every idiot, who just joint the game, was able to set a house somewhere. And then they left, because it was so easy.

    And the player that cried to the developers, to make things more "safe". Well... Who knows. We can suspect that they also left just as fast. UO became a game that lived more on the supply off new player, then keeping the old one's in the game for years.

    Before the easy money period, people WORKED for there money. And where able to be proud if they had something unique, or nice. It was a statement. Look i worked for that!

    The aftermath:

    I tried UO a few years later. My old account got several Christmas presents. Selling those, and in a hour time, i made several 100.000 gold pieces. Placed a two story house. And after another two days. I quit again. The game was so easy, even worse then before. Money had no value anymore.

    People where lining up in the dungeons, to kill the leeches. The dangerous enemy became nothing but a quick thing to slay for a line off people. Almost like people waiting for a Disneyland attraction!

    In the old UO, you needed to be careful in dungeons. Limited space made a nice trap for 'reds'. And all those people lined up to each other. A few magic spell's, combined with explosives, will have made red's a fortune! But ofcourse, they also put a stop to body looting, by limiting the backpack to the owner, for xx time. Yay, another victory for people who complained. Quick note: Most off those idiotic changes came after EA took over, if i remember correctly. Its been a few years ;)

    Current MMORPG's

    Now, tell me, what game can offer the same experience like this? No offense, but the only thing that comes close is EVE Online. I don't like Eve because it feels not as real as UO did ( unable to idenify myself with the "ship" ). But i do give them hands off, they are the only game, that has come close for a bit, to the old UO.

    And no, Darkfall is not even close. As a outsiders, who has been watching the gameplay, off other people, its clear that Darkfall is not a UO successor. Unlike what the Goal off the developers was, in 2003? Been so long, that i waited for the "promised" UO successor called Darkfall, in all that time, i had two long jobs, and now i'm a independent contractor. Said a lot about how long it took DarkFall to come out.

    Darkfall is more about: Destruction... Conquest...

    Not as much as world immersion, as UO was. Even a outsider can quickly see it. This is not to be "negative" about darkfall, but the game is no "old school" UO. Its a totally different game, with a other target public then the "old school" UO.

    There was only one game, that came close to getting the correct immersion feeling, but that MMORPG game died in the beta stage. :( At leased that never released a half finished product ( unlike 3/4 the MMORPG's these days )!

    A game needs to be player driven. Players need to be able to create quests, for other players. Events ... Not just go raid xx, or kill xx. I remember the counselors who did events ( real RPG events! ) every xx days / hours ( the bad thing, most used to be US one's, so there hours sucked for EU players ;) ).

    I just hate how almost all MMORPG's have turned into a addiction type off gameplay. Always holding the carrot in front off the people. Another level, and other level. Content only for xx level. Great riding animals for xx level. And when people start to get fed up, they lower the requirements ( and introduce more "carrots" ).

    People need to grind there ass off, for what? Something that in 6 months time, will be gotten by a newbie in its first day? To grind & grind, and see the "carrot" move away each time. To conform to a preset requirement / ideal. To be clones from each other, with no danger in the world.

    UO was the right balance between the two extreme's. Darkfall is on the right extreme, where as game like WOW are on the left extreme.

    Most MMORPG's are dead to me. I check in every 6 months or so, to see whats new, and hope on a true "old school" UO successor to be available ( minus Eve maybe, but its different ). Something where you can pop in, and forget the "real world" troubles. Where you don't need to grind hours on end, for a "carrot". Where you can just feel at home, but where the developers don't try to make it a "addictive carrot game".

    The only game that came close, in the fantasy real was "Wish". But got canceled during beta. And for good reason, as it was not finished or ready for a release. But it was the only game, where the developers had some UO direction sense, and that gave me hope for a UO successor.

  • ShastraShastra ParisMember Posts: 1,061

    If UO PVP was really that good more MMOS would implement it. Don't blame companies because they only make a product which public wants. The gamers on whole rejected UO style PVP so get over it. Gamers want to have fun and if they feel like it doing in griefing free zones then they are free to do so.

  • johnmatthaisjohnmatthais Florence, SCMember Posts: 2,663
    Originally posted by Shastra


    If UO PVP was really that good more MMOS would implement it. Don't blame companies because they only make a product which public wants. The gamers on whole rejected UO style PVP so get over it. Gamers want to have fun and if they feel like it doing in griefing free zones then they are free to do so.

    Wrong. Gamers adored UO's PvP.

    Hobbyists who came into gaming with games like Guitar Hero, Rock Band, World of Warcraft and Halo 3 rejected the idea of anything that was a real challenge with real consequences.

  • Cik_AsalinCik_Asalin SoCal, CAMember Posts: 3,033
    Originally posted by Shastra


    If UO PVP was really that good more MMOS would implement it.

    They are.  Not themepark devs that push WoW, Aion, WAR, PotBS, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, but AoC, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Earthrise.  Take your pick; themepark or sandboxy. 

  • ShastraShastra ParisMember Posts: 1,061

    None of the games you listed even come close to UO and are very niche games. There is a reason why only handful of such games are being made. Most notice able are Darkfall, Eve Online and new Mortal Online.

  • johnmatthaisjohnmatthais Florence, SCMember Posts: 2,663
    Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

    Originally posted by Shastra


    If UO PVP was really that good more MMOS would implement it.

    They are.  Not themepark devs that push WoW, Aion, WAR, PotBS, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, but AoC, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Earthrise.  Take your pick; themepark or sandboxy. 

    Yo, PotBS is not a game to be lumped with the others you put in there. It follows a more Fallen Earth type stance of a good mix of themepark and sandbox (albeit less sandboxy than the comparison). Don't be lumping it in with games that have crappy design. It just had a lot of imbalances when it was released.

  • johnmatthaisjohnmatthais Florence, SCMember Posts: 2,663
    Originally posted by Shastra


    None of the games you listed even come close to UO and are very niche games. There is a reason why only handful of such games are being made. Most notice able are Darkfall, Eve Online and new Mortal Online.

    Ignore him. LinkRealms ftw.

    Mortal could shape up to be like UO once it's more feature complete, but who knows?

  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Sugar Grove, VAMember RarePosts: 2,245
    Originally posted by johnmatthais

    Originally posted by Shastra


    None of the games you listed even come close to UO and are very niche games. There is a reason why only handful of such games are being made. Most notice able are Darkfall, Eve Online and new Mortal Online.

    Ignore him. LinkRealms ftw.

    Mortal could shape up to be like UO once it's more feature complete, but who knows?

     

    Judging by the open beta.. Not a chance.

    image

  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Sugar Grove, VAMember RarePosts: 2,245
    Originally posted by johnmatthais

    Originally posted by Shastra


    If UO PVP was really that good more MMOS would implement it. Don't blame companies because they only make a product which public wants. The gamers on whole rejected UO style PVP so get over it. Gamers want to have fun and if they feel like it doing in griefing free zones then they are free to do so.

    Wrong. Gamers adored UO's PvP.

    Hobbyists who came into gaming with games like Guitar Hero, Rock Band, World of Warcraft and Halo 3 rejected the idea of anything that was a real challenge with real consequences.

     

    Which gamers adored UO PvP? Is it the ones EA created Trammel for? Or the ones that almost caused the death of the game? Without Trammel UO would have died out long ago.

    image

  • RajCajRajCaj Lafayette, LAMember UncommonPosts: 703
    Originally posted by SlyLoK

    Originally posted by johnmatthais

    Originally posted by Shastra


    If UO PVP was really that good more MMOS would implement it. Don't blame companies because they only make a product which public wants. The gamers on whole rejected UO style PVP so get over it. Gamers want to have fun and if they feel like it doing in griefing free zones then they are free to do so.

    Wrong. Gamers adored UO's PvP.

    Hobbyists who came into gaming with games like Guitar Hero, Rock Band, World of Warcraft and Halo 3 rejected the idea of anything that was a real challenge with real consequences.

     

    Which gamers adored UO PvP? Is it the ones EA created Trammel for? Or the ones that almost caused the death of the game? Without Trammel UO would have died out long ago.

    The PvPers adored it.  They enjoyed the dynamics and flexibility the FFA system lent to the playerbase; and PvP thrived in a fairly balanced system.

     

    PvPers like the idea that the outcome of a match has more to do with their ability to play their character more so than the ability of their gear.....UO gave that.

    And like what the poster you quoted said.....Gamers who enjoy quick fix, consequence free types of experiences have been brought into the genere by all of the casual MMORPGs are now the new "MMORPG Playerbase" and bark at anything challenging.

    Please stop with the "its what the public wants" arguements.  The "Public" wants Blizzard to hand over all the good LOOTZ and make their toon lvl 80 NOW so that they can get to the endgame.  Does that make it good practice? NO

    All I know is this....

    WOW PvPers (on the whole) are absolutely terrible.  Log in to any random BG you like and look at the mass display of idiocy that takes place. 

    • Watch as the one person in the group who knows what to do gets hit with some not some original "Yo Momma" jokes as he trys to explain to his PvP group what the strategy is.
    • Watch the guy that runs straight in to 5 enemy players and dies in 2 seconds flat.....only to resurect and run straight back to that same 5 man group
    • Watch your fellow teammates as they fight random players in the middle of some random field that is NO WHERE NEAR the objective your supposed to be taking.
    • Watch the massive group of lemmings as they walk over the cliffs edge over and over again

    All of that crap wouldn't fly in UO.....

    I'm not even talking about the actual spell / skill mechanics effecting the poor PvP experience in games like WOW.  I'm talking about the people.  I'm talking about the inability of these people to critically think, change the way they do things, or raise their awareness & game.

    The PEOPLE say "NO STICK", but its the stick (or consequences) that breeds the ingenuity and smarts the UO PvP community had.

  • johnmatthaisjohnmatthais Florence, SCMember Posts: 2,663
    Originally posted by SlyLoK

    Originally posted by johnmatthais

    Originally posted by Shastra


    None of the games you listed even come close to UO and are very niche games. There is a reason why only handful of such games are being made. Most notice able are Darkfall, Eve Online and new Mortal Online.

    Ignore him. LinkRealms ftw.

    Mortal could shape up to be like UO once it's more feature complete, but who knows?

     

    Judging by the open beta.. Not a chance.

    Again, LR ftw, heh.

     

  • SithosSithos Sault Ste. Marie, ONMember UncommonPosts: 307

    UO had a positive impact but I don't think Shadowbane did at all. In Shadowbane you didn't have a main, rather you decided which toon to play based on your opponents group composition. You essentially had to level a variety of toons to be used in spec groups. Also there was no "even' playing ground. By and large whichever side had the biggest zerg won the seige. Shadowbane PvP although it had some nice elements, was a failure.

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