Why Shadowbane and UO had the best PVP in an RPG

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  • SnowStreak6SnowStreak6 Yarmouth, NSMember Posts: 14
    Originally posted by johnmatthais

    Originally posted by bluebawles


    Keep believing that and it might become true some day. 
     
    Till then refrain from giving PVP advice when found ragequitting after being killed a couple of times at the goblin camps. 

    Once again, give me details on why DF is so great or I'm calling your bluff.

     

    No one is here to appease your will. Get over your opinions and just accept that people prefer this game.

  • FibsdkFibsdk Buda, TXMember Posts: 1,112

    Never played UO but i did play Shadowbane.

     

    Shadowbane pvp was far from great. The system simply didn't work until they decided to do a seasonal server wipe and make it subscription free. That was not the initial plan with the game. It failed as a P2P game for a good reason and bugs was just one half of it. A broken PvP system was another

     

    Back when it was a P2P game people left enmass because getting your city burned to the ground and your highest tier trainers and merchants along with it was too much of a penalty. Specially since these cities often were demolished at 4 am in the morning where everybody was asleep unable to defend themselves.

     

    I did enjoy the classes though and the 1 on 1 fights. Probably the only game that did the thief/rogue class justice.

  • johnmatthaisjohnmatthais Florence, SCMember Posts: 2,663
    Originally posted by -Zeno-


    I once escorted a player crafter from one city to another.  They only crafted and paid us to protect them since they had no combat skills.  That is well beyond button smashing or doing developer created quests.  Try doing that in UT2K4.
    I also will admit that I have been on a few enjoyable FISHING trips on a raft that sometimes didn't even end in any type of combat (unless attacked by sharks).  This is only a small part of what DF has to offer.
    I will repeat myself however, DF has a grind, it takes a month or more to get to any type of endgame.   The same with most other MMO's on the market, canned or not.  That's why SB and UO were more fun because you get to the fun part much faster than ANY game currently on the market.

    Finally, someone backs up the game with hard details.

    However, I did experience all this and my experience came up a bit shallow. It lacks from what any of its predecessors did. 

    Not to mention the entire atmosphere screams that there's a war going on. Not very apt for fishing trips, imo.

    EDIT: What I'm saying is, it captures war and attempts to add life without capturing life in the way UO, or even Meridian 59 did.

  • -Zeno--Zeno- Member CommonPosts: 1,298
    Originally posted by SnowStreak6

    Originally posted by Tenebrion

    Originally posted by bluebawles


     Darkfall has the best PVP in any MMORPG in existance.
     
    Stop living in the past already, cant come to these boards without some nauseating nostalgia posts popping up.

     

    Darkfall's land-combat is shit, but the political meta-game (and naval combat!) makes up for it. It's just too twitchy and clicky ; victory generally goes to whoever spazzes out or bunny hops the most.

     

    Don't forget - Aims, or has the most skill.

     

    This is why we need a "Shadowbane" to fill the gap.  Take Darkfall and remove the FPS aspect and add the diverse class system they had (1 class can go MANY different directions, like a Scout with a Great Axe).  Remove the grind too.

    The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

  • comerbcomerb Seattle, WAMember Posts: 941
    Originally posted by johnmatthais

    Originally posted by bluebawles


    abomination? who are you trying to convince here, especially since its quite obvious you have absolutely no pvp knowledge 
     
    the op himself stated a few posts above that DF is currently the best pvp mmorpg. 

    Seriously, anyone who thinks Darkfall is the best PvP MMO needs to go back to playing FPSs.

    Really, explain how it's anything other than spamming the attack key. That's all I've ever seen of it and I gave the game a fair chance, myself.

    Also, look at how much people outside the game's fanbase actually care about it...

    As for myself, I'm not the world's most apt PvPer (I started in Clan Lord...far from a PvP MMO), but I know that Darkfall is in no way any more tactical than an FPS and in terms of those tactics, it's not half the tactical prowess required by games such as WWII Online, Planetside or even Call of Duty.

     

    You realize FPS games are basically the preferred medium of skilled PvP combat... right?  

    Also... did you actually play Darkfall?  Spamming the attack button?  What did you do, get killed by the first goblin you saw in the game and ragequit?  Sure sounds that way.

    Aiming, dodging, parrying, flanking, jumpkiting, mounted combat, using cover, using highground, debuffs, buffs, utility spells(launch, telekensis, etc), heals, stamina/health/mana management, friendly fire, real world stealth mechanics, actual use of 3d sounds that matter....  Then you also have skills like double jump, sidestep, knockback, etc

    And to top it off you have actual ship to ship combat.  Seigable player cities, villages, hamlets, etc.

    It's most certainly not "spamming the attack button".  You're being ridiculous and biased..

  • johnmatthaisjohnmatthais Florence, SCMember Posts: 2,663
    Originally posted by comerb


    You realize FPS games are basically the preferred medium of skilled PvP combat... right?  
    Also... did you actually play Darkfall?  Spamming the attack button?  What did you do, get killed by the first goblin you saw in the game and ragequit?  Sure sounds that way.
    Aiming, dodging, parrying, flanking, jumpkiting, mounted combat, using cover, using highground, debuffs, buffs, utility spells(launch, telekensis, etc), heals, stamina/health/mana management.  Then you also have skills like double jump, sidestep, knockback, etc
    And to top it off you have actual ship to ship combat.
    It's most certainly not "spamming the attack button".  You're being ridiculous and biased..

    Not being biased, being based off of my experience as I was taught how to play by various members of my clan. I actually recall someone telling me blocking was pointless. In the early experience, it is.

    EDIT: Not to mention the only people that make vids only run up to their target and spam the attack button. Just saying. I'm not the only one that played that way.

  • rindonrindon bolivar, OHMember Posts: 78
    Originally posted by -Zeno-


    Darkfall is the best current RPG on the market.  Everything else is canned.  Notice I said RPG instead of PVP MMO.  In UO there was a player created city called Pax Lair.  This was not developer created in any way other than the gifts the "gods" gave them.  That can never happen in most MMO's on the market because they are all canned.  You have no freedom, you are stuck in whatever path is laid out in front of you, even with PVP (player interaction).
    Darkfall still has a grind (although its been greatly improved) compared to the top dogs (SB and UO).  You may be able to equip full plate and R80 weapons on a character made 1 minute ago, but someone who has played 2 months will still stomp you on stats/power alone and in 3 days its the exact same stomping as day 1 and day 10.



     

        i pop into UO every now and again and i think pax is still around. I know the RBG (royal brittanian guards) have their own player run city (collection of houses built close to each other). there are still some weekly auctions that go on and some player ran events and naval battles.

         the thing with UO that made it great was there were no restrictions and somehow, the hundreds of skills they had were balanced in almost all combinations. if one became TOO op they would tone something down to make it easier to manage but not nerf it to hell.

         the thing that killed it (for most people) was tram and insurance. it took away many play styles a lot of people ran, i.e. thieves got screwed hard, roaming red gangs, etc, etc. theres still some theivery going on now, but it isnt anything like it was. after tram the game turned more into an "item" based game and not a skill based game. and there is really no risk in pvp anymore (unless you run out of gold or forget to insure a new item)

         it still has some of the best customization ever put into a game. from the many different character looks, armor sets, clothing, dye, etc, etc, to being able to actually build your own house/building/whatever you want tile by tile.

     

    I played Darkfall at release before US servers got put in. IMO its a decent game but the hacks, macroing, exploits, bugs, lack of cap on skill points kind of put me off on it so i sold my account and havent looked back.  

    I have heard its improved greatly, but after looking at it, it doesnt have the immersion factor of the old school games like UO where you could do anything. And also from what I heard, its roaming gank squads and large guild battles is what goes on most of the time.

    Naked Halbreder anyone? lol

  • TenebrionTenebrion Hallandale, FLMember Posts: 179
    Originally posted by SnowStreak6

    Originally posted by Tenebrion

    Originally posted by bluebawles


     Darkfall has the best PVP in any MMORPG in existance.
     
    Stop living in the past already, cant come to these boards without some nauseating nostalgia posts popping up.

     

    Darkfall's land-combat is shit, but the political meta-game (and naval combat!) makes up for it. It's just too twitchy and clicky ; victory generally goes to whoever spazzes out or bunny hops the most.

     

    Don't forget - Aims, or has the most skill.

    "the most skill" in Darkfall generally consists of who has the most skills macroed, who has the better equipment on, or who's better at fighting while sprinting eratically and bunny-hopping. Honestly, the best way to describe Darkfall's combat is that it's simplistic and arcadey.

    What they need to do is provide an incentive for players to not constantly move as fast and erratic as possible, as well as to not constantly bunny hop, in addition to providing more attacks and spells that are worth bothering with. The fact that there really are no melee attacks that are worth a shit other than whirlwind or axe power-attack is pretty shitty, and the fact that magic consists entirely of 31-flavors of the same shit is also pretty shitty.

    image
    Content Writer for RTSGuru.com
    And overall bitter old man.

  • rindonrindon bolivar, OHMember Posts: 78
    Originally posted by Tenebrion

    Originally posted by SnowStreak6

    Originally posted by Tenebrion

    Originally posted by bluebawles


     Darkfall has the best PVP in any MMORPG in existance.
     
    Stop living in the past already, cant come to these boards without some nauseating nostalgia posts popping up.

     

    Darkfall's land-combat is shit, but the political meta-game (and naval combat!) makes up for it. It's just too twitchy and clicky ; victory generally goes to whoever spazzes out or bunny hops the most.

     

    Don't forget - Aims, or has the most skill.

    "the most skill" in Darkfall generally consists of who has the most skills macroed, who has the better equipment on, or who's better at fighting while sprinting eratically and bunny-hopping. Honestly, the best way to describe Darkfall's combat is that it's simplistic and arcadey.

    What they need to do is provide an incentive for players to not constantly move as fast and erratic as possible, as well as to not constantly bunny hop, in addition to providing more attacks and spells that are worth bothering with. The fact that there really are no melee attacks that are worth a shit other than whirlwind or axe power-attack is pretty shitty, and the fact that magic consists entirely of 31-flavors of the same shit is also pretty shitty.



     

     

    this is why im looking forward to Mortal Online. The stam loss makes it hard to bunnyhop/swing wildly without completely draining yourself and not being able to do much after that.

  • comerbcomerb Seattle, WAMember Posts: 941
    Originally posted by johnmatthais

    Originally posted by comerb


    You realize FPS games are basically the preferred medium of skilled PvP combat... right?  
    Also... did you actually play Darkfall?  Spamming the attack button?  What did you do, get killed by the first goblin you saw in the game and ragequit?  Sure sounds that way.
    Aiming, dodging, parrying, flanking, jumpkiting, mounted combat, using cover, using highground, debuffs, buffs, utility spells(launch, telekensis, etc), heals, stamina/health/mana management.  Then you also have skills like double jump, sidestep, knockback, etc
    And to top it off you have actual ship to ship combat.
    It's most certainly not "spamming the attack button".  You're being ridiculous and biased..

    Not being biased, being based off of my experience as I was taught how to play by various members of my clan. I actually recall someone telling me blocking was pointless. In the early experience, it is.

    EDIT: Not to mention the only people that make vids only run up to their target and spam the attack button. Just saying. I'm not the only one that played that way.

     

    So your clan sucked?  Every good Darkfall vid I see shows players using every aspect of combat... mounts, melee, archery, and magic all in conjuction with eachother.  The ones who run up to their targets and spam attack suck ass.

  • johnmatthaisjohnmatthais Florence, SCMember Posts: 2,663
    Originally posted by rindon


    this is why im looking forward to Mortal Online. The stam loss makes it hard to bunnyhop/swing wildly without completely draining yourself and not being able to do much after that.

    Be prepared to be micromanaging skill points like crazy. 

    Also be prepared to have near no stamina at the beginning. When you just start out, between 2 and 4 swings of an axe will have you winded.

    In any case, the point is that DF's combat isn't exactly lovable.

  • johnmatthaisjohnmatthais Florence, SCMember Posts: 2,663
    Originally posted by comerb


    So your clan sucked?  Every good Darkfall vid I see shows players using every aspect of combat... mounts, melee, archery, and magic all in conjuction with eachother.  The ones who run up to their targets and spam attack suck ass.

    That may be, but they were a part of a larger parent clan (can't remember the name...started with an I and owned their own city) who didn't exactly reprimand those teachings.

  • SnowStreak6SnowStreak6 Yarmouth, NSMember Posts: 14

    I enjoy that you guys are acting as if Darkfall doesn't have stamina drain from combat and jumping. If you're running around consistently jumping you're going to drain extremely fast, especially if you have a weapon out. Sprinting and jumping with a weapon unsheathed causes MUCH MORE stamina drain, but of course you wouldn't know that because you probably barely played the game.

    On the complaints about twitchiness, that's one of the things that makes this game more fun. It's fast and hectic in PvP and there's no room to slow down or you die. There is a huge emphasis on environment mastery while trying to play the game. You can do so much more if you're a skilled player than if you've just got high stats. I have also outplayed people with more HP and skills than me.. which by the way, this 'macroing' you speak of is only doable for certain skills and can get you a GM warning.

    As for the comments about Mortal Online, good luck brave sirs, it appears to be much more of the same twitch based greifing you all complain about except in a slower paced and borderline broken melee system.

  • comerbcomerb Seattle, WAMember Posts: 941



     
    this is why im looking forward to Mortal Online. The stam loss makes it hard to bunnyhop/swing wildly without completely draining yourself and not being able to do much after that.

     

    If there is one aspect that Mortal does poorly compared to Darkfall, its combat.  MOs combat system is awful to the nTh degree.

  • johnmatthaisjohnmatthais Florence, SCMember Posts: 2,663
    Originally posted by comerb


    If there is one aspect that Mortal does poorly compared to Darkfall, its combat.  MOs combat system is awful to the nTh degree.

    I wouldn't compare them at all. Mortal is obviously slowed, whereas Darkfall is meant to be fact paced and in your face.

    After playing Mortal, the only similarity between it and Darkfall is the features list.

    If you expect DF, MO will be poor. I'd compare it, as a good part of it's players have, more to UO than to DF.

  • comerbcomerb Seattle, WAMember Posts: 941
    Originally posted by johnmatthais

    Originally posted by bluebawles


    I am a veteran of Asheron's Call Darktide....you know that FFA pvp skillbased game that didnt get neutered by it's makers with Trammel and did not go free to play and shut down a couple years later - Shadowbane -
     
    I know about what I am talking about in regards to PVP mmorpgs

    Even thinking about comparing AC to DFO is shaming the name of the former. 

    DFO is like month old dog poo in comparison to AC.

    Also, would you care to elaborate on why DFO's PvP is so great? Last I recall, I could get the same action, and possibly better, in Determinance.

     

    As an old time Darktide player I can confidently say DF is the closest thing to AC-Darktide on the market.  

  • johnmatthaisjohnmatthais Florence, SCMember Posts: 2,663
    Originally posted by comerb


    As an old time Darktide player I can confidently say DF is the closest thing to AC-Darktide on the market.  

    Never said it wasn't...simply said that Darkfall should bow to AC and not vice-versa.

  • comerbcomerb Seattle, WAMember Posts: 941
    Originally posted by johnmatthais

    Originally posted by comerb


    If there is one aspect that Mortal does poorly compared to Darkfall, its combat.  MOs combat system is awful to the nTh degree.

    I wouldn't compare them at all. Mortal is obviously slowed, whereas Darkfall is meant to be fact paced and in your face.

    After playing Mortal, the only similarity between it and Darkfall is the features list.

    If you expect DF, MO will be poor. I'd compare it, as a good part of it's players have, more to UO than to DF.

     

    It makes no sense to compare a 2d combat system to a 3d FPS combat system.  I'm not talking about overarching game systems in general(where it is more comparable to UO), I'm talking about combat system.  

    Like it or not, DF is the tool of measurement for an FPS combat system in MMOs... and MO is lacking.

     

  • johnmatthaisjohnmatthais Florence, SCMember Posts: 2,663
    Originally posted by comerb


    It makes no sense to compare a 2d combat die system to a 3d FPS combat system.  I'm not talking about overarching game systems in general(where it is more comparable to UO), I'm talking about combat system.  
    Like it or not, DF is the tool of measurement for an FPS combat system in MMOs... and MO is lacking.

    Which is a shame for a number of reasons.

  • TenebrionTenebrion Hallandale, FLMember Posts: 179

     



    Originally posted by SnowStreak6
     
    I enjoy that you guys are acting as if Darkfall doesn't have stamina drain from combat and jumping. If you're running around consistently jumping you're going to drain extremely fast, especially if you have a weapon out. Sprinting and jumping with a weapon unsheathed causes MUCH MORE stamina drain, but of course you wouldn't know that because you probably barely played the game.

    On the complaints about twitchiness, that's one of the things that makes this game more fun. It's fast and hectic in PvP and there's no room to slow down or you die. There is a huge emphasis on environment mastery while trying to play the game. You can do so much more if you're a skilled player than if you've just got high stats. I have also outplayed people with more HP and skills than me.. which by the way, this 'macroing' you speak of is only doable for certain skills and can get you a GM warning.

    As for the comments about Mortal Online, good luck brave sirs, it appears to be much more of the same twitch based greifing you all complain about except in a slower paced and borderline broken melee system.

     

    To be honest, you sound like someone who's just discovered the game, and are still starstruck. Considering that I've been playing the game since the first stage of beta, have followed the game since 2003, and am one of the more well known people who play the god damn game, I'd say that my opinion is, if nothing else, coming from a person who can speak authoritatively on the fundamentals of Darkfall.

     

    And, put simply, anyone that says that Darkfall's combat doesn't leave a hell of a lot to be desired, likely just hasn't been playing long enough for that "new game smell" to wear off. Judging by the fact that you think a player who sprints and jumps in combat will ever run out of stamina (ever heard of mana to stamina, food, and stamina pots?), I'd say that my assumption isn't too far off.

     

    Darkfall's meta-game is second to none. The sieges are amazingly fun, and so is the naval combat ; however, the nuts and bolts of the combat itself, the actual current game mechanics of click spam and mach-ten strafing, just leaves a player who wants a complex experience wanting more. Unlike a game like Shadowbane, there aren't alot of unique activities to do in combat ; it's simply a matter of juggling your nuke, your AOEs, your conservation spells, your melee, and (in some cases) your archery. While this is great for a while, the lack of variety, and the lack of unique strategies, becomes boring.

     

    I ultimately got bored with Darkfall's combat for the same reason why I got bored with WOW's combat, and that's because at the end of the day, your fights become too predictable. People generally have the same sets of abilities, have the same method of fighting, and behave exactly as you'd expect. If the devs were to add some balance between the run and gun style of gameplay and the tactical, as well as add more abilities and spells that aren't purely straight damage spells, then the combat would be alot more engaging.

     

    image
    Content Writer for RTSGuru.com
    And overall bitter old man.

  • SnowStreak6SnowStreak6 Yarmouth, NSMember Posts: 14
    Originally posted by Tenebrion


     

    Originally posted by SnowStreak6
     
    I enjoy that you guys are acting as if Darkfall doesn't have stamina drain from combat and jumping. If you're running around consistently jumping you're going to drain extremely fast, especially if you have a weapon out. Sprinting and jumping with a weapon unsheathed causes MUCH MORE stamina drain, but of course you wouldn't know that because you probably barely played the game.

    On the complaints about twitchiness, that's one of the things that makes this game more fun. It's fast and hectic in PvP and there's no room to slow down or you die. There is a huge emphasis on environment mastery while trying to play the game. You can do so much more if you're a skilled player than if you've just got high stats. I have also outplayed people with more HP and skills than me.. which by the way, this 'macroing' you speak of is only doable for certain skills and can get you a GM warning.

    As for the comments about Mortal Online, good luck brave sirs, it appears to be much more of the same twitch based greifing you all complain about except in a slower paced and borderline broken melee system.

     

    To be honest, you sound like someone who's just discovered the game, and are still starstruck. Considering that I've been playing the game since the first stage of beta, have followed the game since 2003, and am one of the more well known people who play the god damn game, I'd say that my opinion is, if nothing else, coming from a person who can speak authoritatively on the fundamentals of Darkfall.

    And, put simply, anyone that says that Darkfall's combat doesn't leave a hell of a lot to be desired, likely just hasn't been playing long enough for that "new game smell" to wear off.

    Darkfall's meta-game is second to none. The sieges are amazingly fun, and so is the naval combat ; however, the nuts and bolts of the combat itself, the actual current game mechanics of click spam and mach-ten strafing, just leaves a player who wants a complex experience wanting more. Unlike a game like Shadowbane, there aren't alot of unique activities to do in combat ; it's simply a matter of juggling your nuke, your AOEs, your conservation spells, your melee, and (in some cases) your archery. While this is great for a while, the lack of variety, and the lack of unique strategies, becomes boring.

    I ultimately got bored with Darkfall's combat for the same reason why I got bored with WOW's combat, and that's because at the end of the day, your fights become too predictable. People generally have the same sets of abilities, have the same method of fighting, and behave exactly as you'd expect. If the devs were to add some balance between the run and gun style of gameplay and the tactical, as well as add more abilities and spells that aren't purely straight damage spells, then the combat would be alot more engaging.

     

     

    I've also played since the EU beta, and no I never claimed that there is nothing that needs to be changed. I would LOVE for combat to be more fleshed out, I am just simply tired of people making useless topics like this where they do nothing but bitch about a game and beg you to tell them why it's good just so they can have a huge argument of why their games are better and pretend that their 20 years of gaming knowledge makes them a better person.

  • comerbcomerb Seattle, WAMember Posts: 941
    Originally posted by johnmatthais

    Originally posted by bluebawles


    So you have Shadowbane with an engine that sucked bad, while DF's is very good (widely accepted).

    Let me finish that sentence...

    Widely accepted...among it's fans. To everyone else, everything about the game is an abomination. Have you heard the shit talk about the UI? That's part of the engine bud.

    Don't get me started on the horrible optimization.

     

    Had to comment on this as well.  DF has perhaps the best net-code I have ever seen in an MMO.  I mean... its seriously impressive compared to a lot of other games... and its coming from an Indy developer, which is even more impressive.  When you take into consideration the scale of the game and the seamless world they created, it only becomes that much more impressive.  The only optimization issue I ever had with DF was how it handles shadows... and I just turn them off anyway.

    The combat is incredibly smooth, and the netcode is absolutely fantastic.  Compared to huge budget titles like Aion its a damned masterpiece.  

    By the way, a UI isn't part of the game engine.  It's just a UI, and it reportedly getting overhauled.

  • rygar218rygar218 altamonte springs, FLMember UncommonPosts: 332

    DF will never be as good as UO style of PvP until Darkfall puts in a skill cap and adds thievery.

    The fact that one character can learn everything in the game to the cap if you ask me just kills the game for me.  Darkfalls econ is craptacular cause there is no reason to buy or repair your stuff like you had to in UO cause everyone can be a blacksmith/crafter/archer/mage/etc/etc.  Food and STA pots also kill it as well while your jump kiting people with your shield. Just plain lame.

    And no thieves? What kind of crap is that? Thievery makes the element of danger more exciting other than seeing red zergs or blue zergs.

    If they had skill cap and thieves I would be playing Darkfall.

     

  • comerbcomerb Seattle, WAMember Posts: 941
    Originally posted by rygar218


    DF will never be as good as UO style of PvP until Darkfall puts in a skill cap and adds thievery.
    The fact that one character can learn everything in the game to the cap if you ask me just kills the game for me.  Darkfalls econ is craptacular cause there is no reason to buy or repair your stuff like you had to in UO cause everyone can be a blacksmith/crafter/archer/mage/etc/etc.  Food and STA pots also kill it as well while your jump kiting people with your shield. Just plain lame.
    And no thieves? What kind of crap is that? Thievery makes the element of danger more exciting other than seeing red zergs or blue zergs.
    If they had skill cap and thieves I would be playing Darkfall.
     

     

    I've never been impressed with how thieves are handled in any games outside of MUDS personally, but I do agree that DF is missing some skillcap/crafting/economical elements that bring it up short of UO or Eve.  It's still a young game though, so hopefully they start fleshing out the sandbox and make the specialization's more important in a way that more closely resembles skill-caps.

  • DaggerjaydoDaggerjaydo Puyallup, WAMember UncommonPosts: 121

    So basically, instead of having to kill someone to steal all of your crap, you'd prefer to just be able to steal their crap and run away?

     

    That just kinda sounds lazy to me. 

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