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TERA Plagiarized Lineage 3

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  • RavenRaven Member UncommonPosts: 2,004
    Originally posted by jrs77


    If you work for a company and code something while working for them, you are not allowed to take anything done so far with you, when you leave.
    But, and now comes the tricky one, you still have all this ideas and solutions you came up with in your head. You can't delete your memory.
    So, what the developers, who got fired from NC did, they started all over again from scratch, but they had all those stuff inside their head, which they used and I wouldn't call that stealing or anything like that.
    If NC is stoopid enough, to fire all those creative people, then it's their own fault. If anything, they should've doubled their sallary instead, to keep them and their "brainpower".
    General ideas are plagiarized every day, and aslong as you don't actually copy them 1:1 there's nothing hindering you from doing it. There's no laws preventing anyone from using general ideas, and that's all the devs of TERA did: they took all the general ideas with them, they had in their heads, without actually stealing something like a HDD or disk with the code stored on it.

     

    While that is true about you taking your ideas this is, in most cases predicted by companies on their agreements, most if not all games companies will make you sign an agreement that will stop you from recreating technology you have researched or developed in their company at some other company, so lets say, you come up with a new lighting model that is ultra fast and allows for thousands of dynamic lights with no frame drop, you develop some apps and a framework at company A.

    If you then leave you are not allowed to recreate that same technology to use at company B for  X amount of time, this usually means one or two years or usually until the project you were originally working is released. That is the way it works for most of the time, this is however a very unreal scenario, if you came up with such system you would be on a lead position, with alot of cash and more likely than not doing more talks and coordinating your own team than programming.

    It is my opinion that in this case and its blatant that the developers got their inspiration for TERA on L3, artstyle etc.. and there is no harm in that, because a company cant own anime style characters, just like a company cant own the rights to E =MC^2 , unless they actually put code that was exactly written at NCSoft and then put on TERA its unlikely that, there is a basis for conviction other than just circunstancial evidence, they left  NCSoft and a "similar" project was created at a competition lets sue them.

    I dont know however what evidence there were against them, but it seems like a 1million USD fine is more like a slap on the wrist "dont do that again" sort of thing.

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  • jrs77jrs77 Member Posts: 419


    Originally posted by WisebutCruel
    They used the specific code from Lineage 3, bit for bit. Noones memory is that good, which is why they lost. Sorry.

     
    I added to my previous post, while you were responding.
    Get your facts together, as Bluehole isn't the one who got sued actually.
  • RavenRaven Member UncommonPosts: 2,004
    Originally posted by WisebutCruel

    Originally posted by jrs77


    If you work for a company and code something while working for them, you are not allowed to take anything done so far with you, when you leave. And that only includes written code stored on a HDD or disk, aswell as other forms of media like papers etc.
    You still have all this ideas and solutions you came up with in your head tho, and you can't delete your memory unfortunately.
    So, what the developers, who got fired from NC did, they started all over again from scratch, but they had all those stuff inside their head, which they used ofc.
    If NC is stoopid enough, to fire all those creative people, then it's their own fault. If anything, they should've doubled their sallary instead, to keep them and their "brainpower".
    General ideas are plagiarized every day, and aslong as you don't actually copy them 1:1 there's nothing hindering you from doing it. There's no laws preventing anyone from using general ideas, and that's all the devs of TERA did: they took all the general ideas with them, they had in their heads, without actually stealing something like a HDD or disk with the code stored on it.

    They used the specific code from Lineage 3, bit for bit. Noones memory is that good, which is why they lost. Sorry.

     

    I can tell your not a programmer, coming up with new systems is very hard, once you understand the concept on how to implement them however its very simple to recreate them, you do not need to memorize every single line of code not even any lines of code for that matter to recreate a piece of software, you just need to understand the concept behind it and then translate it to whatever coding style your used to.

    If these guys worked on the L3 project on a specific area they will have to understand the concepts and have the ability recreate them, furthermore the only way it would be possible for a coder to recreate bit by bit of such a large project would be to have it side by side and copy and paste even refactoring a piece of code a programmer will always change something, make it better, or add things that when it was coded the first time he just didnt predict he would need.

    Any programmer that relies on memorizing code to complete a task has already failed and would never be working on a games company.

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  • ValentinaValentina Member RarePosts: 1,865

    It doesn't matter, they didn't have to pay very much, anyway.

  • WisebutCruelWisebutCruel Member Posts: 1,089
    Originally posted by Valentina


    It doesn't matter, they didn't have to pay very much, anyway.


    That makes theft acceptable, then?

  • drbaltazardrbaltazar Member UncommonPosts: 7,856
    Originally posted by Safaia


    I disagree with that court decision for 2 reasons:
    A programmer who leaves a company has his experience as capital to make finding a new job easy? According to that law they have not. They are not allowed to use their experience to program something that has the potential to compete with their former company. They are not allowed to use what THEY have developed and their former boss refused to use. Tell me, how sick is that? Programmers leaving a company have the option to do something completely different or do what they know best and break the law.

    That is like disallowing a mason to build a house after he has built the first one.
    At a point, all MMORPG's use thesame techniques. A lot of them use external built graphic engines like Granny or the RenderWare Engine. So it is natural that they use similar structures in their code. Most MMORPG's use a race/class/abilities structure and have a leveling system. They have values for strength, dextery, intelligence and constitution. Someone who has programmed such a system can easily implement another one without taking the code from the first. Plus the second one is better in most cases because he avoids the mistakes he made in the first one.

     

    ok lets reverse this!why do you go work for x,y,z company if its to just stab them in the back later .open your own freaking firm at the start!not after !when you go in you sing on the sheet whatever they want you dont want to sign crawl back in the place where you came from the exiasting firm couldnt care less since they receive 100 of cv a day to do the exact job you were often and on top of that they ll do it because they love to do it.only kind of people that do what blue hole guys did are those that are tired of working and want to stay home!

  • TsytaTsyta Member Posts: 3

    what part of working on fucking something, getting fired by a company which doesnt want you to get credit for your own work, making a new company and continuing your own work is theft?

     

    maybe someone should steal your hard earned car and set your house ablaze then call you a theif, then you have to pay him for your house and your car.

     

    you dont even understand whats going on in this case you all can just make little statements thinking your even gonna tarnish this games reputation.

     

    T.E.R.A will destory anything NCsoft has planned, because they were main pillars of NCsofts success.

    Inspirational Evil

  • WisebutCruelWisebutCruel Member Posts: 1,089
    Originally posted by Tsyta


    what part of working on fucking something, getting fired by a company which doesnt want you to get credit for your own work, making a new company and continuing your own work is theft?
     
    What part do you not fucking understand? You create it while working for someone else, it is THEIR work, not yours.
     
    maybe someone should steal your hard earned car and set your house ablaze then call you a theif, then you have to pay him for your house and your car.
     You really need to work on analogies, because that one fails so hard it's ridiculous.
    you dont even understand whats going on in this case you all can just make little statements thinking your even gonna tarnish this games reputation.
     The only one understanding nothing is you, and you revel in your own ignorance.
    T.E.R.A will destory anything NCsoft has planned, because they were main pillars of NCsofts success.
    Seriously doubt it. Once again, someone holds up a supposed Messiah of mmos, only to find out a little later from now it's just another piece of turd.

     

  • drbaltazardrbaltazar Member UncommonPosts: 7,856

    poster 179 when you get hired by those guys they make you sign wall of paper basicly saying

    efverything here is owned by x company ,everything you make while on our assignement  while being paid by ncsoft

    is the sole property of ncsoft ,you cannot use,copy ,bring with or the whole nine year  partial code or full code of said things

    if you refuse to sign those parper saying they own you till you leave or the trow you out(in this case the later)

    they ll just refuse to hire you TO MAKE THEIR OWN PROJECT!not your project,you give idea to ncsoft because ncsoft is PAYING

    YOU TO THINK ABOUT THE GAME ITS YOUR JOB!

    YOU DONT OWN ANYTHING YOU COULD HAVE CODED THE WHOLE GAME BYYOURSELF IN YOUR BASEMENT

    BUT IF YOU ARE BEING PAID AND HAVE SIGNED A CONTRACT AND SAID YES TO ALL CONDITION

    YOU ARE THEIRS TO THE SAME EXTENT L1,L2,L3,GUILDWARS,AION,ETCETCETC

    they own you !every game maker work in the same fashion,same thing fro intel,amd,ibm

    etcyou want to make stuff ?no problem open your own outfit make game designer sign your own charte sue those employe your self !the system is fair the one supplying the money and the paycheck should be the one reapping the reward

    some feel slighted because they thot they just had found an investor in their idea!ya right ask the million of people about that

    it takes reputation to go somwewhere,check richard garriott hes in another boat no issue

    ask a noob nobody frsh from college to do the same on most occasion he wont if hes not in a techno city like montreal,los angeles shangai,etc!its the way it is .

    you want to make your own game good we need new game !but do it with YOUR OWN FREAKING FOUND INVESTOR MONEY

    you dont sign sheet binding you to a game maker if you plan to do your own thing once you found code you need in ncsoft library

    it is plagia at the minimum.for me i call it stealling!and in some country the cut the hands of thief!

  • jrs77jrs77 Member Posts: 419
    Originally posted by drbaltazar


    poster 179 when you get hired by those guys they make you sign wall of paper basicly saying
    efverything here is owned by x company ,everything you make while on our assignement  while being paid by ncsoft
    is the sole property of ncsoft ,you cannot use,copy ,bring with or the whole nine year  partial code or full code of said things
    if you refuse to sign those parper saying they own you till you leave or the trow you out(in this case the later)
    they ll just refuse to hire you TO MAKE THEIR OWN PROJECT!not your project,you give idea to ncsoft because ncsoft is PAYING
    YOU TO THINK ABOUT THE GAME ITS YOUR JOB!
    YOU DONT OWN ANYTHING YOU COULD HAVE CODED THE WHOLE GAME BYYOURSELF IN YOUR BASEMENT
    BUT IF YOU ARE BEING PAID AND HAVE SIGNED A CONTRACT AND SAID YES TO ALL CONDITION
    YOU ARE THEIRS TO THE SAME EXTENT L1,L2,L3,GUILDWARS,AION,ETCETCETC
    they own you !every game maker work in the same fashion,same thing fro intel,amd,ibm
    etcyou want to make stuff ?no problem open your own outfit make game designer sign your own charte sue those employe your self !the system is fair the one supplying the money and the paycheck should be the one reapping the reward
    some feel slighted because they thot they just had found an investor in their idea!ya right ask the million of people about that
    it takes reputation to go somwewhere,check richard garriott hes in another boat no issue
    ask a noob nobody frsh from college to do the same on most occasion he wont if hes not in a techno city like montreal,los angeles shangai,etc!its the way it is .
    you want to make your own game good we need new game !but do it with YOUR OWN FREAKING FOUND INVESTOR MONEY
    you dont sign sheet binding you to a game maker if you plan to do your own thing once you found code you need in ncsoft library
    it is plagia at the minimum.for me i call it stealling!and in some country the cut the hands of thief!

     

    You're wrong actually, with your bloated statements there.

    If you've worked on a roject before, then leave to another company and you've got all those great ideas in your head and write the whole code new (i.e., you don't copy it), then it's 100% legal to do so.

    The only thing you're not allowed is to copy & paste code.

  • WisebutCruelWisebutCruel Member Posts: 1,089
    Originally posted by jrs77

    You're wrong actually, with your bloated statements there.

    If you've worked on a roject before, then leave to another company and you've got all those great ideas in your head and write the whole code new (i.e., you don't copy it), then it's 100% legal to do so.

    The only thing you're not allowed is to copy & paste code.

    Hate to tell you, but you are once again wrong.

    When a scientist makes a cure for something, the company he works for gets the money and the prestige. He gets "Good job!". If he goes to another company and creates the same cure "from memory", without looking at his notes from the previous company, he still gets sued.

    If an architect makes a breakthrough design while working for a company, the company gets the profits and he gets "Good job!". If he goes to another company and builds the same design from memory, he gets sued.

    And the same applies with game developers.

    Don't know what Socialist ideas you have, but they don't work in 99% of reality.

  • jrs77jrs77 Member Posts: 419

    Fortunately in Europe there's not anything like the US, where you can get a patent for every brainfart.

    And in Europe, you cannot patent ideas in general, so if someone writes a clone of an existing game, but does this without copy&paste, then it's 100% legal to do so.

    So to clarify the issue we're talking about again:

    7 Developers, who are now working for Bluehole Studios were sued by NCSoft, as they have offered the existing code of Lineage III to a japanese company.

    Bluehole Studios is not the one, who got sued by NCSoft, as they've not used a single line of existing Lineage III-code, but instead started to write the whole thing from scratch again.

  • YamiVegetaYamiVegeta Member Posts: 15

    Well it's good to know the lawsuit doesn't seem to make the game progress slow down, since CBT3 is gonna start.

    That's right! It wasn't me who was wrong. It was the world!

  • LaterisLateris Member UncommonPosts: 1,765

     Was it written in C++? What code is it written in? Was it development tools they stole? Did they steal lines of code? Did they copy the entire source code? So every time I code in C++ am I to be held liable?  I would love to know the actual facts on the case it sounds so cool. 

  • alucard3000alucard3000 Member Posts: 414
    Originally posted by ProfRed


    NICE!  I thought... how could a country let someone blatantly steal a games source code and make a new game for profit with it.  Maybe NCSoft will buy up Tera and release it...
     
    The thieves deserves everything coming to them.


     



     

    Blizzard and NCsoft have come together and made a studio called en masse of which the 1st project is bringing Tera to western audiences

    http://www.massively.com/2010/02/24/blizzard-ncsoft-talent-form-developer-en-masse-entertainment/

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  • LaterisLateris Member UncommonPosts: 1,765

    Ah so the 4 developers disclosed information about the LIII technology while employed at NCSoft to a popular Japanese game company. Ya that is a big no no in South Korea. There are a lot of disclosed things you can do with the UT III engine. I bet they did a rewrite. No wonder LIII was canceled after claims of it being hacked. So 2 devs go to jail and the other 2 owe billions of won. and they can't work in the gaming industry for 2 years. I hope their families are ok.   

  • knighthonorknighthonor Member Posts: 96
    Originally posted by rhinok


     From mmocrunch.com:

     
    Bluehole Studios, the newly formed developers of TERA are to compensate NCSoft for the sum of 2 billion Wons(approximately 1,721,836.820 USD)  for plagiarizing Lineage 3’s source code. This decision was made by the Seoul Central District Court after they found the former development director of Lineage 3 guilty. According to Bluehole, they are not satisfied with the judgement, and will lodge an appeal immediately.
    It is still unknown whether this will affect the development of TERA, or the existence of Bluehole, and NCSoft have yet to make an official statement on the case.
    The reason behind the case is the fact that Mr. Kang and Mr. Yo, former developers for Lineage 3, used some of the technologies copyrighted by NCSoft after the project’s cancellation, in their latest game – TERA.

     
    Also from mmosite.com:

     
    In terms of Lineage 3's code disclosure lawsuit, the South Korean court has recently ruled that the 4 core developers of Lineage 3 (including the former development director) and their current employer Bluehole Studio should compensate NCsoft by 2 billion Wons.
     
    This is the civil ruling, following the criminal one in which the core developers of Bluehole Studio were found guilty (on Jun. 26, 2009, the Seoul Central District Court sentenced the former development director of Lineage 3 - Mr. Park to a fixed-term imprisonment of one and a half years with a 2-year suspension of execution for malfeasance and disclosure of business secrets). According to Bluehole Studio, they're not satisfied with the judgement, and will lodge an appeal immediately.
     
    On Jan. 28, the civil department of the Seoul Central District Court rendered a verdict and required the 4 involved defendants including Mr. Park to compensate NCsoft by 2 billion Wons. Meanwhile, the defendants were also ordered not to disclose NCsoft's business secrets to any others, but clear up all related data in hand.
     
    Though at present, NCsoft wins the lawsuit no matter in the criminal judgement or in the civil one, it's still unknown if the MMORPG TERA under development by Bluehole Studio will be fatally affected.
     
    Relevant Event
    Mr. Park, formerly in charge of Lineage 3's development, got in touch with a Japanese company in 2006 with the aim of attracting investment, and disclosed certain plans related to Lineage 3. Mr. Bae, who was responsible for other projects at that time, was also involved in this matter. Moreover, the former developers of Lineage 3 including Mr. Kang and Mr. Yoswitched over to Bluehole Studio after the cancelation of Lineage 3, and applied certain technologies originally adopted in the development of Lineage 3 in Bluehole Studio's new project - Project S1 (currently named TERA).

     
    ~Ripper
     

    There's a Lineage 3?

     

    Link me to this please

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  • mrroboto40mrroboto40 Member UncommonPosts: 657

    They will survive for sure, this isn't really much, even so, by the time they actually "need" to pay them, i.e. after the appeal etc., the game will already be released.

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  • LaterisLateris Member UncommonPosts: 1,765

     Those devs that were involved are gone and from what I understand the game had to have a rewrite. I am willing to give this game a try since those devs were fired. 

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,213
    Originally posted by Lateris


     Those devs that were involved are gone and from what I understand the game had to have a rewrite. I am willing to give this game a try since those devs were fired. 

    This game never had any rewrite,the only thing that was an offense was TALK,you are not allowed to talk of trade secrets,this game was already in Beta before the judges ruled and the game has not stopped for a day since,so it is obvious there was nothing copied.The guys that were charged talked of trade secrets to get the funding,that is what happened.

    The ONLY thing i have seen that is anything remote to unique is heir so called soft skin technology and if this was copyright by NCSOFT it would not be in the game,so nothing but a bunch of rumors.

    Personally i think it shows NCSOFT is a very incompetent developer,if they were so worried about L3,they would have delivered L3,instead they were too worried about a flying game and hiring lawyers to make sure Lord British and his brother did not get their money owed through contracts.

    If NCSOFT had of delivered L3 it would have probably had 2 races and been another PVP RvR game.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • ZacruneZacrune Member Posts: 126
    Tension Tension...Shessh...All you people do is create TENSION...
  • DillingerEPDillingerEP Member UncommonPosts: 365

     Stealing is bad, and NcSoft had every right to sue the higher up's of Bluehole. Though in this case i could care less about NcSoft, whatever may of been made with the code. NcSoft would of ultimately fucked it up down the road. Bluehole is doing us a favor, of not being subjected to anymore of NcSoft's bullshit.

    So heres to you Bluehole, cheer's to sticking it to the man!!!!   

     

  • LaterisLateris Member UncommonPosts: 1,765

     No offense anyone. I really don't care. I am going to try Tera because it looks so darn good. The devs who did the wrong are gone.  This all happened behind closed doors. I am more interested in the game play then the legal poo poo in South Korea. The game has had a full rewrite. Can we move on? 

  • AlienovrlordAlienovrlord Member Posts: 1,525
    Originally posted by alucard3000


    Blizzard and NCsoft have come together and made a studio called en masse of which the 1st project is bringing Tera to western audiences
    http://www.massively.com/2010/02/24/blizzard-ncsoft-talent-form-developer-en-masse-entertainment/

     

    Thanks for that link.  Though it's actually only people who *used* to work for Blizzard and NCSoft, not the two companies making En Masse.  

    Still they've got folks from an impressive array of companies.  It makes me think this game may be more than just hype and pretty graphics.  

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