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UO should have been our future

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  • Marcus-Marcus- Member UncommonPosts: 1,006
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Ceridith

    Originally posted by chriswsm


    UO was the 'dogs danglies' of its day and I only stopped playing it when I genuinely got bored of it.  This took 4 years.
     
    Every MMO I have played since I have played for less than 4 years and gotten bored with much faster and no game since UO has had housing that felt like it really belonged to the player.   Where else can you say "I built that".
     
    My large manor just north of Trinsic was a beauty to behold and not with any game since have I really experienced ownership of a home.

     

    And yet if you asked for player housing or any other form of extended character customization in nearly any of the newer MMOs you get the token response of "Go play the Sims if you want that [insert derogatory word for homosexuals here]" from most of the other players...

    It's sad what most MMOs, and their communities, have become.

     

    That would be good advice. If I want to play house, i would play the SIMS. I play MMORPGs to have good boss fights with my guildmates and wat not.



     

    I might too, if the SIMS had good PvP...

    But they don't allow that in your instanced boss fights either eh?

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo

    Originally posted by Axehilt


    OP, I think you meant to say, "I wanted UO to be my future."
    Our future was determined by which games players enjoyed (and thus subscribed to) more.

     

    Nope, Marketing did it.  Good marketing beats what people really want every time.  There is a reason why McDonalds makes a heck of a lot of money, and it ain't because people think Big Macs are the greatest food ever.



     

    Marketing only gets people in the door.  If the product is crap, they don't stick around, rather they tell 10-11 other people that the product is crap. 

    Marketing gets people to try McDonalds, people come back because they find the food tastes good, it's cheap and incredibly convenient. 

    Marketing does not get people to come back.  Therefore marketing is not the reason for the continued success of those other games.  People keep coming back to them, so developers keep making them.

    Venge Sunsoar

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • StellosStellos Member UncommonPosts: 1,491

    I couldn't agree more.  Instead of following the UO model MMOs have went the complete opposite.  I'm not into the grind for levels and special gear either.  I find it tedious and boring.  I enjoyed the UO model where it was an adventure no matter what skill your character had.

  • lisubablisubab Member Posts: 670
    Originally posted by RajCaj

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Ozmodan

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Knightcry


    I recall in '01 playing Ultima Onlne thinking this is great and I can't imagine what great games this will spawn.  Back then I thought we would see games developed that would offer complex house building, farming lands and herding wild animals into pens to sheer and slaughter. Games with balance in pve and pvp where both aren't game makers or breakers but both are fun. Content that is player created and supported by the company and vice versa.
    Imagine what gaming would be like if gaming went with the UO style rather than the EQ style. I for one think it sounds better than hitting level 9000 and raiding to gain super sayain gear with flames.
     

     

    Nah .. i was in UO beta and thought that it was a horrible game. Clicking nonstop to level mining. Everyone a tank mage. Pk is rampant. You can't move 10 feet without being killed. Any place with any resources is camped to the hilt.

    I jumped ship once EQ came out. Never look back. Despite with all the problems (down-time, camping ..), EQ is 10x the game UO is. And i am glad that the industry moved AWAY from the UO model. And by the maximum subscription rate of this two games, a lot more people like the EQ model than the UO model.

    So you like be relegated to skills only available in your class, you like the unending grind?  People like you is what is the problem with the genre today.  UO was so much better than EQ it is even hard to describe in how many ways it was better.

    Problem with players like you, you don't want to make any choices, you want the game to make them all for you.  Can you saying boring, that is exactly what EQ was.

    At least in UO I could make choices and then change my mind.  UO was not the perfect game, never said it was, it had issues same as EQ, but at least in UO I could choose to change. 

     

    LOL .. there is no "problem" ... the market adapts to what people wants .. that is nature of business.

    Plus, what choice? If you want to be effective in UO, you become a tank mage. Do you deny that there are a lot of tank mages out there?



    At least in EQ, you need to make a choice of what class to become. Division of roles is a GOOD thing for a game and the UO model does not facilitate that.

    Lastly, rant as you want, the market has voted. UO is not coming back and that is a GOOD thing.

    People want stuff with little effort and want it now....  When a staff of mine finished his task with little effort and promptly I call him efficient.  What is wrong with trying to lower cost, including time cost?

     

    Each MMO keeps offering more stuff with less effort....thereby attracting more people to the trough.....its a superior subscription model, not a superior game experience model.  It is a superior subscription model, and yet you said it is not a superior game experience model.  Does it occur to you that your are a failure? in the sense that catering products to you will mean bad business?  Advice to the suppliers, do not sell to RajCaj if you want to recover cost.

    Its not as if the MMO market that was around during the UO/EQ times have changed their mind in what they like and what they like is WOW's model. It is demonstrated that when DAoC, SWG and then WoW launches, the older game dies, and some of the gamers move to these new games.  It is demonstrated that by now all these old games, including DAoC and SWG were brushed aside, demonstrating that the evolution as mapped out by Blizzard were most welcome among the gamers.

    Blizzard changed the market by pulling in First Person Shooters & Console gamers using their casual approach to MMO Gaming.  Of course people who are used to single player pause n' save people, and FPSrs who just want to get in and get going NOW gamers are going to look at you crazy if you mention anything that involves tough love, hard knocks or time required.  So you mean people who play FPS and Console gamers cannot be also the same person who sometimes play chess, strategy games or brain teasers?  Oh God forbid that.

    Secondly, UO was not all about everyone being one specific build/class (tank mage).  You either did not play the game long enough or played in one very narrow niche of the game.  I had a thief, axe warrior, mage, and an animal tamer. In WoW, there are also people who do not care for quest, there are also people who did not raid, there are also people who never bother to max their levels.  So what?

    Yes, the new MMO market thats filled with gamers who largely came from casual markets have voted.......tell me what to do, when to do it, and why I should be doing it repeatedly every day. No one wants to tell you what to do, that is your business.  You are not held at gunpoint to play anything in the MMO market.  There is a whole new world outside.

    Lastly, if you mean a game that had one of the most indepth crafting systems, player housing, non-item oriented game design is a GOOD thing for MMO, I must disagree.  Ok you disagree.  So?

    At the end of the day, everyone picks what games or other forms of entertainment for himself for the particular hour of that day of that week.  That is it.

  • lisubablisubab Member Posts: 670
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by RajCaj



    I constantly see hardcore PvErs in WOW complain because the content is too easy, or that its only difficult because of simple gear difficencies.  They are happy and content until they've cleared all the dungeons only months after the expansion and get bored months leading up to the next expansion.  This niche isn't fully satisfied because the content has to be easy enough for more casual groups to experience.

    I constantly see hardcore PvPrs in WOW complain that the "endgame" of PvP is nothing more than a scripted duel in a box....where PvPers have nothing more to look forward to in PvP than a 3v3 or 5v5 elimination tourny inside a small room.  Battlegrounds are in COMPLETE shambles, filled with lowest common denominators and people gaming the system for better loot.  This niche isn't fully satisified because the content has to be easy enough for more asual groups to experience.

    WOW is a good game in its own rights.  The general theme has been that in the name of increasing accessibility to the most number of people (max subscriptions), the bar must be lowered so that the casuals (who float from game to game anyway) have a good enough experience.  As a consequence, the ones looking for a challenge in PvE or PvP never get a superior experience at the cost of getting all the console gamers and FPSers involved. 

    Your opinion that there is nothing wrong with wanted to get rewarded quick, fast, and now is one thats works on a slippery slope.  By that method....why don't we just give allow every new player to reach max level / skill in a week and give them the best gear available so that they can start on all the content right away?  BECAUSE ITS CHEAP.  Cheap stuff is easy to put down and does not create value in the mind of the player like stuff you work hard for does.  It makes the tangibles you earn in the game cheap....and the experience cheap.  (Kind of like FPS matchs and console games....go figure)

    As for the min-maxers.....thats just one group of people who want to be the most efficent monster basher or PvPer.  As previously stated......there are PLENTY of other things to do in the game than beat up on monsters or people.  AND even if you did want to beat up on monsters and people, you had more options than just Tank Mages. (By the way....tank mages went out of favor in UO back in like 98, I get your point but its a bad example to use)

     

    In your two examples, only the hardcore complains and they consist of a small part of the population. I just spent the whole nite (2-3 hours) clearing the blood prince ICC 25 man and certainly we don't think it is too easy (it would be prob when everyone geared up and know the fight better). I don't think I care about what the real hard core players think. If they are not happy, they can quit and find some other games.

    Of course, fast & quick is subject to interpretation. The yardstick is probably something like WOW .. you get something done in an hour, at least two. That can be a small chance of an item, or a few badge going towards an item.

    UO is certainly not getting this right on this count.

     

     

     

    Nari, after reading your reply, I feel all I need to say are already said.

    Mr RaiCaj, your views are very strong and individual, but it remains your view.  The numbers have shown that quite a few other gamers want something different.  I play SWG.  I have a merchant and I have a house.  But in UO or EQ2, I do not even care to have a house.  People look for different things from different games.  Also the top down view from UO makes it hard to look at a house, and feel it like a true experience.  I remember looking at the first merchant house in SWG, I remember moving up the hills in LOTRo.  That kind of experience UO never delivers.  Cannot blame UO, it is based on a very old engine that assumes only a 486DX.

    WoW is not lowering the bar and lowering the ceiling as well.  WoW is lowering the entry bar, yes.  I see that as a good move.  Everyone can try it.  WoW can set a boss as hard as you can imagine.  I remember Sunwell.  95% of the server never gets to see it.  Even now we only got to rotface in Wotlk.  The 3 princes routed us for hours.  Maybe we are not the best gamers on earth, no doubt about that.  For us, the new bosses of WoW presents a few weeks of learning and coordination.  Before we got to the point of putting the bosses on farm, a new batch comes out.  Free of charge.  Good thing is, we can extend the lock, meaning we do not have to do the old bosses after killing them once.  We can keep doing the harder bosses one and one and never have to kill those already killed once.  So long as we extend the lock.

    UO maybe a good game for the coding technology and hardware/platform limitations back in late 90s.  It no longer is the only viable way now.  While it is possible to redo a UO 3D, I do not pretend to believe that the old UO design is going to get very popular.

  • lisubablisubab Member Posts: 670
    Originally posted by RajCaj

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


     
    In your two examples, only the hardcore complains and they consist of a small part of the population. I just spent the whole nite (2-3 hours) clearing the blood prince ICC 25 man and certainly we don't think it is too easy (it would be prob when everyone geared up and know the fight better). I don't think I care about what the real hard core players think. If they are not happy, they can quit and find some other games.
    Of course, fast & quick is subject to interpretation. The yardstick is probably something like WOW .. you get something done in an hour, at least two. That can be a small chance of an item, or a few badge going towards an item.
    UO is certainly not getting this right on this count.
     
     

    Quit and go where?  Blizzard has created too big of financial barriers to entery in the market to allow superior PvE or PvP games to exist.  They have created a market that is impossible to please unless your able to make things easier and more rewarding than the standard (WOW). 

     

    This whole discussion has gotten way sidetracked into a debate over specific games...

    My final point is this......my opinion is that more games like UO have not been atempted not because of the merits UO stands on, but because its not financially viable considering the new and expanded MMO market that has been flooded by more casual and instant gratification seeking gamers that formerly got their fix in single player console games and first person shooters.

    Just because the entire gaming community doesn't agree with the UO system doesn't mean that its a bad model for a fantasy Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.  It just means that a lot of gamers that Blizzard has drawn to the genere, due to the casual nature of the game, won't like it.  Unfortunately that translates into "not enough subs to justify the investment" by any major publisher.

    Any independent that does attempt it faces the bane of internet scourn and bad word of mouth because the launch sucked due to poor investment in infrastructure, resources, & development.  (See Darkfall)

     

    Several things.  The market of MMO is big now.  To enter the market you do not need to capture the entire market.  Fact is, the larger the market, the more games it can support, the easier it is to enter and find enough of a foothold to survive and build up.  In the 90s, the entire MMO market is 500,000.  If you capture 1% of it you only have 5,000 and you are sinking.  Today with over 20million (my guess) active gamers, 1% will keep a MMO very healthy.

    Huge budget =/= success.  Look at all the flop titles.  Blizzard was once very small.  When Blizzard start developing WoW, it is a virgin in MMO and only famous for its RTS and 1 and only 1 H&S.

    UO? yes it was once a pioneeer.  Can it be rehashed and redesigned for the current market?  Who got a solid idea there?

    Darkfall?  It got a badly received launch not because it is different from WoW.  It is actually being denounced by its own fans, who spend 8 years following the game and found that what was delivered in the end was a far cry from what was being promise.  In short, a scam.  Second life is very different from WoW.  It was very well received.  A thousand newly launched games are very similar to WoW, not all of them are well received.

  • lisubablisubab Member Posts: 670
    Originally posted by Ceridith

    Originally posted by Josher 
    Thats why I liked WOW's skill system thats buried under the class/level system.  Your axe or sword skill goes up as you use it, but you don't just sit there and hit a tree 1000 times to get better at using a sword.  As a Shaman I used everything as I was leveling up just to make sure I was good at everything.  If I found a good axe, I started using it.  If I got a great dagger, I started using that and a shield for a while.  But I didn't just sit there mindlessly leveling up a SKILL.  It just got leveled in the background as I played without turning it into some sort of MIN/MAX procedure that skill based games force upon you.  It was a nice hybrid...a skill point system within a LEVELING system.  I wasn't playing to get better at using a sword.  I was questing and adventuring and I just got better at whatever I was using as I played.  I wasn't playing to level up a SKILL.  I was playing to just play.  Anyone who was playing UO knows for damn sure many, many people were spending lots of time just using skills to make them better.  That was the goal.  Get Fireball to X skill level.   LAME!!

     

    WoW's system isn't even worthy of being considered a hybrid. The weaponskill gain systems might as well not exist, since even if you do get new weapon you're at zero with, you can max it out in less than an hour anyways, so it's fairly irrelevant to the longterm 'advancement' of a character.  So a skill that is easy to level up is bad?  How is it not relevant to advancement, when you cannot even hit a tree if your skill is at zero?

    I actually prefer UO's system, because you actually had to do what you wanted to learn, rather than gaining general XP to be able to do what you wanted. It just feels silly to become better at fighting, casting, and various other adventurer abilities, by performing tasks such as delivering a message from one NPC to another. I guess it's preference, but I'd prefer to actually use my abilities to have to advance them, and not be locked into a generic advancement pool.  You can max axe skill level by delivering a letter to an NPC?  Where do you get that in WoW?  You can level up, and that levelling up usually involves some combat.  When you do combat with axe as you level, your axe levels up.  If you only use a mace as you level up, you axe skill remains .... zero.  I begin to wonder, do you ever know what WoW is.

     

    Yes you prefer players shooting fireballs at a tree for a month, because it takes a month to get fireball skills up.  That is a more meaningful way of levelling up and playing.  To you.

    I prefer to play and let the game take care of my skills.  When I have no good axe, I won't be levelling it anyway.  When I switched to my first big good axe, I fumble a bit and after an hour of PLAYING the game (which might be delivering a letter to an NPC, and killing a few snakes on the way), I got my skills in using an axe.

  • uquipuuquipu Member Posts: 1,516

     Skill leveling like GURPs versus levling like D&D?  I don't care, not even in the slightest.  The computer tracks all that stuff.  

    UO's user interface.  Don't want it.

    UO's PvP?  I don't know.  I like PvP but I don't like being at such a disadvantage when new that it's pointless for me to try.

    I'm tempted to try it.  Yes you can still play and there's a two week free trial.

    But I think I would be disappointed.

    Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren

  • randomuser83randomuser83 Member Posts: 37

    Richard Garriot abandoned us.  I want my UO2.  :(

  • RajCajRajCaj Member UncommonPosts: 704
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by RajCaj

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


     
    In your two examples, only the hardcore complains and they consist of a small part of the population. I just spent the whole nite (2-3 hours) clearing the blood prince ICC 25 man and certainly we don't think it is too easy (it would be prob when everyone geared up and know the fight better). I don't think I care about what the real hard core players think. If they are not happy, they can quit and find some other games.
    Of course, fast & quick is subject to interpretation. The yardstick is probably something like WOW .. you get something done in an hour, at least two. That can be a small chance of an item, or a few badge going towards an item.
    UO is certainly not getting this right on this count.
     
     

    Quit and go where?  Blizzard has created too big of financial barriers to entery in the market to allow superior PvE or PvP games to exist.  They have created a market that is impossible to please unless your able to make things easier and more rewarding than the standard (WOW). 

     

    This whole discussion has gotten way sidetracked into a debate over specific games...

    My final point is this......my opinion is that more games like UO have not been atempted not because of the merits UO stands on, but because its not financially viable considering the new and expanded MMO market that has been flooded by more casual and instant gratification seeking gamers that formerly got their fix in single player console games and first person shooters.

    Just because the entire gaming community doesn't agree with the UO system doesn't mean that its a bad model for a fantasy Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.  It just means that a lot of gamers that Blizzard has drawn to the genere, due to the casual nature of the game, won't like it.  Unfortunately that translates into "not enough subs to justify the investment" by any major publisher.

    Any independent that does attempt it faces the bane of internet scourn and bad word of mouth because the launch sucked due to poor investment in infrastructure, resources, & development.  (See Darkfall)

     

    No where. It is not like MMORPG is the only entertainment options out there. Do something else if you don't like MMORPGs anymore.

     

    So a mega rich game development company sees  financial opprotunity in MMO gaming and comes up with a plan to make a game that will draw other genere gamers into the MMO market (thereby completely changing the experience of MMO Gaming to cater to this new market), and the people left looking for a challenging gaming experience are told to go play in the street? LOL

     

    Its like a few guys barging in on your game of tag football and making up a bunch of different rules....if you don't like it, go play chess. haha 

    I never said I didn't like MMORPGs, I'm just agreeing with the OP in that its ashame that  many of the good things that came out of UO have been untouched.  NOT because the old MMO Market all the sudden decided that the WOW model was the way to go.....but because people who agree with the WOW model was brought into the genere.....essentially changing the face of the MMO Market. 

     

  • TorikTorik Member UncommonPosts: 2,342
    Originally posted by RajCaj



    Its like a few guys barging in on your game of tag football and making up a bunch of different rules....if you don't like it, go play chess. haha 


    If by 'barge in' you actually mean 'bought the property next to your playing field and built their own playing field' then that is a correct advice.   It's a lesson many people don't seem willing to learn.  No one 'owns' the MMORPG genre and you can't make people play games the way you want them to play. 

    If you do not like the gameplay of WoW, then find a game with gameplay you like. If you can't find a game like that then develop it yourself.  If that is not an option then go play chess.  haha

  • ColdrenColdren Member UncommonPosts: 495
    Just wanted to throw my two cents in. To start with:



    1) I like UO. I still play it.

    2) I like WoW. I still play it.

    3) I like Darkfall SO FAR. I just started.




    I used to be of the mindset that Darkfall was indeed vaporware. I liked the ideas when the concept started 8 years before it launched, but I had no love for the title or the developers.



    Now I don't know what issues it faced at launch, but I can tell you that Darkfall is actually pretty good right now, especially if you had a particular fondness for pre-Tram UO. Please note I didn't have a particular fondness for the rule set, more for the sense of community that existed before it, and lament for the segregation that grew afterward - but even I appreciate DF for what it is.



    If you liked UO and you liked FPS games (Which I don't, as I have poor twitch skills..And this is like an FPS game.. The most Hack and slash you can get with an MMO), and you have a think skin, it might be of interest to you.



    Having said that, there are a lot of good points made that I think have been overlooked in the thread.



    The reason games like UO are still around is because of the attachment the community feels to their possessions, characters, or the community itself BECAUSE it was difficult to obtain. I still hop on my UO smith because I remember it took me months to become a GM, and when I placed my first house.. Woo baby! Even the communities were difficult to build, because you actually had to MEET the players - you didn't chit chat through whispers or any kind of public channel. You had to meet them, talk to them, get them to give you their email, ICQ, or invite you into their guild..



    Anything easily gained is easily lost. WoW does pull in those who don't want anything beyond some enjoyment for a brief time. I do from time to time, so I have 2 level 80's. However, games like Darkfall and UO cater to those who want to feel a deeper involvement or sense of immersion or attachment to the world and their characters.



    All three have their strong points, and all three have their shortcomings. I prefer the UO's and Darkfalls to the WoW's of the world, but that doesn't mean they aren't "good" or don't have their place. And I do agree with the OP that UO had so many great features that I found enjoyable or with enough "hook" to keep me attached to a 12-year-old game that next to none seem to be adopting, and it seems like a real shame.



    Any game is only fun if you enjoy the experience you get out of it.



    Right now, I'm enjoying swinging my axe at a tree to raise up my lumbering in Darkfall a thousand times because I LIKE the fact that it feels like I'm accomplishing something not everyone will do, making my efforts worth something. Add to that the fact that in DF, I can easily be killed if I'm not careful doing my mining and lumbering or fishing, and it does make those tasks which usually seem mundane or dull to others, actually interesting AND difficult.



    Yeah, I die a lot, especially to people who camp and gank players outside starter towns, and it does peeve me off from time to time, but you know what? I'm having too much fun to care.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775



    Right now, I'm enjoying swinging my axe at a tree to raise up my lumbering in Darkfall a thousand times because I LIKE the fact that it feels like I'm accomplishing something not everyone will do, making my efforts worth something. Add to that the fact that in DF, I can easily be killed if I'm not careful doing my mining and lumbering or fishing, and it does make those tasks which usually seem mundane or dull to others, actually interesting AND difficult.

    Well, anyone who thinks swinging at a tree a thousand time, even have to watch their back, is fun ... is certainly not mainstream. I wouldn't play a game where the game mechanics is so boring. I would much rather go to run a dungeon. At least i got to FIGHT something, which is fun.

    And if that feels an accomplishment, try writing "I like DF" 1000 times. I am sure that is something "not everyone will do" and make your effort worth something ... NOT.

     

  • uquipuuquipu Member Posts: 1,516

     One thing about skill leveling games is that botting programs like Autohotkey can really help.  If you don't know programing that well, you are at a severe disadvantage.

    Here is one Darkfall script written in Autohotkey.  Google showed hundreds of scripts.

     

     

    Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren

  • Marcus-Marcus- Member UncommonPosts: 1,006
    Originally posted by uquipu


     One thing about skill leveling games is that botting programs like Autohotkey can really help.  If you don't know programing that well, you are at a severe disadvantage.
    Here is one Darkfall script written in Autohotkey.  Google showed hundreds of scripts.
     
     



     

    People cheat. Its part of all games, everywhere.

    I personally like skill levelling a lot more. If someone wants to cheat their way through, I can just hope the developers are willing to curb it as much as possible. It happens, yes, its something I am willing to live with for the most part, sadly.

  • WraithoneWraithone Member RarePosts: 3,806
    Originally posted by Knightcry


    I recall in '01 playing Ultima Onlne thinking this is great and I can't imagine what great games this will spawn.  Back then I thought we would see games developed that would offer complex house building, farming lands and herding wild animals into pens to sheer and slaughter. Games with balance in pve and pvp where both aren't game makers or breakers but both are fun. Content that is player created and supported by the company and vice versa.
    Imagine what gaming would be like if gaming went with the UO style rather than the EQ style. I for one think it sounds better than hitting level 9000 and raiding to gain super sayain gear with flames.
     

     

    This horse is not only dead, but its been rendered down to glue... I remember the original UO myself. There were a number of factors that made it the success that it was. Look at what was available at the time... Also, look at the community at the start. Now move forward to when the gankers/griefers started to dominate things, which drove many, many people off. To the point that even the short sighted Dev's finally caught on and started to do something about it. Fast forward to today. There is NO way that such a game would be more than niche game in todays market in the west.

    "If you can't kill it, don't make it mad."
  • uquipuuquipu Member Posts: 1,516
    Originally posted by Marcus-

    Originally posted by uquipu


     One thing about skill leveling games is that botting programs like Autohotkey can really help.  If you don't know programing that well, you are at a severe disadvantage.
    Here is one Darkfall script written in Autohotkey.  Google showed hundreds of scripts.
     
     



     

    People cheat. Its part of all games, everywhere.

    I personally like skill levelling a lot more. If someone wants to cheat their way through, I can just hope the developers are willing to curb it as much as possible. It happens, yes, its something I am willing to live with for the most part, sadly.

     

    Yah, I agree.  What my point is: and I didn't form it very well, is that when you have to do a simple action like shooting your bow a thousand times.  A simple script makes this much easier.  Start the game, start the script, go to work and when you get back home, your skill is maxed.

    Now the poor smuck who doesn't have the skills to code such a thing has to sit there eight hours pressing the same key over and over.

    Most games have some skill leveling system skills.  First aid, cooking, fishing, weapon skill, defense are all skill leveling in WoW.  EQ and EQ2 have some too.

     

    Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren

  • Marcus-Marcus- Member UncommonPosts: 1,006
    Originally posted by Wraithone

    Originally posted by Knightcry


    I recall in '01 playing Ultima Onlne thinking this is great and I can't imagine what great games this will spawn.  Back then I thought we would see games developed that would offer complex house building, farming lands and herding wild animals into pens to sheer and slaughter. Games with balance in pve and pvp where both aren't game makers or breakers but both are fun. Content that is player created and supported by the company and vice versa.
    Imagine what gaming would be like if gaming went with the UO style rather than the EQ style. I for one think it sounds better than hitting level 9000 and raiding to gain super sayain gear with flames.
     

     

    This horse is not only dead, but its been rendered down to glue... I remember the original UO myself. There were a number of factors that made it the success that it was. Look at what was available at the time... Also, look at the community at the start. Now move forward to when the gankers/griefers started to dominate things, which drove many, many people off. To the point that even the short sighted Dev's finally caught on and started to do something about it. Fast forward to today. There is NO way that such a game would be more than niche game in todays market in the west.



     

    I think the point of the thread, is that what if the the UO style had developed , as opposed to making an UO right now, the same as it was during its "darkest" days. And your right, if it was made that way, the game would be niche' (though i would certainly try it :)

    Would all sandbox games be full loot PvP? I wouldn't think so.

     Perhaps an RvR system of types (SWG tried). More "safe zones" than UO had might help.  They all probably wouldnt have even needed PvP (not my choice of gaming, but it still would be out there)..

    UO was still popular during its trammel days, though people like to say that was its downfall. Trammel was basically consentual PvP..  Eventually, they went down the road of risk vs. reward with Trammel and Felucca, which i thought was going to be really helpful, but it never got its legs..

    With money, and development time, perhaps a middle ground could be found between full loot, and and what some would consider "carebear". I thought Mythic did a decent job with that on DAoC.

  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,726
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Ozmodan

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Knightcry


    I recall in '01 playing Ultima Onlne thinking this is great and I can't imagine what great games this will spawn.  Back then I thought we would see games developed that would offer complex house building, farming lands and herding wild animals into pens to sheer and slaughter. Games with balance in pve and pvp where both aren't game makers or breakers but both are fun. Content that is player created and supported by the company and vice versa.
    Imagine what gaming would be like if gaming went with the UO style rather than the EQ style. I for one think it sounds better than hitting level 9000 and raiding to gain super sayain gear with flames.
     

     

    Nah .. i was in UO beta and thought that it was a horrible game. Clicking nonstop to level mining. Everyone a tank mage. Pk is rampant. You can't move 10 feet without being killed. Any place with any resources is camped to the hilt.

    I jumped ship once EQ came out. Never look back. Despite with all the problems (down-time, camping ..), EQ is 10x the game UO is. And i am glad that the industry moved AWAY from the UO model. And by the maximum subscription rate of this two games, a lot more people like the EQ model than the UO model.

    So you like be relegated to skills only available in your class, you like the unending grind?  People like you is what is the problem with the genre today.  UO was so much better than EQ it is even hard to describe in how many ways it was better.

    Problem with players like you, you don't want to make any choices, you want the game to make them all for you.  Can you saying boring, that is exactly what EQ was.

    At least in UO I could make choices and then change my mind.  UO was not the perfect game, never said it was, it had issues same as EQ, but at least in UO I could choose to change. 

     

    LOL .. there is no "problem" ... the market adapts to what people wants .. that is nature of business.

    Plus, what choice? If you want to be effective in UO, you become a tank mage. Do you deny that there are a lot of tank mages out there?



    At least in EQ, you need to make a choice of what class to become. Division of roles is a GOOD thing for a game and the UO model does not facilitate that.

    Lastly, rant as you want, the market has voted. UO is not coming back and that is a GOOD thing.

    I was going to say something about this so called tank mage bent you were on the first time, but decided to let it slide.   If you had played UO much you would realize that the tank mage was pretty much relegated to very early UO as rules changes made them far less useful. 

    It is also nonsense about roles, UO had tons of roles you could play depending on your skillset and they could be required in many different situations.  All your post does is display ignorance of UO and how limited your role was in EQ.

    Yeah I actually feel sorry for the EQ advocates, they cannot grasp the fact how limited the game made their characters.  Pretty sad you cannot recognize that fact.

  • RajCajRajCaj Member UncommonPosts: 704
    Originally posted by Coldren

    Just wanted to throw my two cents in. To start with:



    1) I like UO. I still play it.

    2) I like WoW. I still play it.

    3) I like Darkfall SO FAR. I just started.





    I used to be of the mindset that Darkfall was indeed vaporware. I liked the ideas when the concept started 8 years before it launched, but I had no love for the title or the developers.



    Now I don't know what issues it faced at launch, but I can tell you that Darkfall is actually pretty good right now, especially if you had a particular fondness for pre-Tram UO. Please note I didn't have a particular fondness for the rule set, more for the sense of community that existed before it, and lament for the segregation that grew afterward - but even I appreciate DF for what it is.



    If you liked UO and you liked FPS games (Which I don't, as I have poor twitch skills..And this is like an FPS game.. The most Hack and slash you can get with an MMO), and you have a think skin, it might be of interest to you.



    Having said that, there are a lot of good points made that I think have been overlooked in the thread.



    The reason games like UO are still around is because of the attachment the community feels to their possessions, characters, or the community itself BECAUSE it was difficult to obtain. I still hop on my UO smith because I remember it took me months to become a GM, and when I placed my first house.. Woo baby! Even the communities were difficult to build, because you actually had to MEET the players - you didn't chit chat through whispers or any kind of public channel. You had to meet them, talk to them, get them to give you their email, ICQ, or invite you into their guild..



    Anything easily gained is easily lost. WoW does pull in those who don't want anything beyond some enjoyment for a brief time. I do from time to time, so I have 2 level 80's. However, games like Darkfall and UO cater to those who want to feel a deeper involvement or sense of immersion or attachment to the world and their characters.



    All three have their strong points, and all three have their shortcomings. I prefer the UO's and Darkfalls to the WoW's of the world, but that doesn't mean they aren't "good" or don't have their place. And I do agree with the OP that UO had so many great features that I found enjoyable or with enough "hook" to keep me attached to a 12-year-old game that next to none seem to be adopting, and it seems like a real shame.



    Any game is only fun if you enjoy the experience you get out of it.



    Right now, I'm enjoying swinging my axe at a tree to raise up my lumbering in Darkfall a thousand times because I LIKE the fact that it feels like I'm accomplishing something not everyone will do, making my efforts worth something. Add to that the fact that in DF, I can easily be killed if I'm not careful doing my mining and lumbering or fishing, and it does make those tasks which usually seem mundane or dull to others, actually interesting AND difficult.



    Yeah, I die a lot, especially to people who camp and gank players outside starter towns, and it does peeve me off from time to time, but you know what? I'm having too much fun to care.

    This guy gets it. 

     

    If Blizzard did not exist and the "Themepark" MMO of choice was some good (not great) game like Warhammer that only had about half the subs that WOW has.....I think you would see a more diverse mix of MMOs (including some sandbox games) that are at a stable position among its competitors.  In Short.....there is a place for everyone but due to finanancial barriers created by the success WOW has had by expanding the MMO playerbase, those independent upstarts have a much harder time getting off the ground due to market share issues.

    I'm not an anit-capitalist my any mean......what Blizzard has done from a business standpoint is huge and something worth admiring.  I just think its worth recognizing that the presence WOW has on the market heavily influences the types of games we will continue to see down the road.

    Until the next company figures out another way to break the mold......we are going to see VERY similar games coming down the pipe because the game developers are targeting their product at the same people Blizzard has.

  • Marcus-Marcus- Member UncommonPosts: 1,006
    Originally posted by Ozmodan

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Ozmodan

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Knightcry


    I recall in '01 playing Ultima Onlne thinking this is great and I can't imagine what great games this will spawn.  Back then I thought we would see games developed that would offer complex house building, farming lands and herding wild animals into pens to sheer and slaughter. Games with balance in pve and pvp where both aren't game makers or breakers but both are fun. Content that is player created and supported by the company and vice versa.
    Imagine what gaming would be like if gaming went with the UO style rather than the EQ style. I for one think it sounds better than hitting level 9000 and raiding to gain super sayain gear with flames.
     

     

    Nah .. i was in UO beta and thought that it was a horrible game. Clicking nonstop to level mining. Everyone a tank mage. Pk is rampant. You can't move 10 feet without being killed. Any place with any resources is camped to the hilt.

    I jumped ship once EQ came out. Never look back. Despite with all the problems (down-time, camping ..), EQ is 10x the game UO is. And i am glad that the industry moved AWAY from the UO model. And by the maximum subscription rate of this two games, a lot more people like the EQ model than the UO model.

    So you like be relegated to skills only available in your class, you like the unending grind?  People like you is what is the problem with the genre today.  UO was so much better than EQ it is even hard to describe in how many ways it was better.

    Problem with players like you, you don't want to make any choices, you want the game to make them all for you.  Can you saying boring, that is exactly what EQ was.

    At least in UO I could make choices and then change my mind.  UO was not the perfect game, never said it was, it had issues same as EQ, but at least in UO I could choose to change. 

     

    LOL .. there is no "problem" ... the market adapts to what people wants .. that is nature of business.

    Plus, what choice? If you want to be effective in UO, you become a tank mage. Do you deny that there are a lot of tank mages out there?



    At least in EQ, you need to make a choice of what class to become. Division of roles is a GOOD thing for a game and the UO model does not facilitate that.

    Lastly, rant as you want, the market has voted. UO is not coming back and that is a GOOD thing.

    I was going to say something about this so called tank mage bent you were on the first time, but decided to let it slide.   If you had played UO much you would realize that the tank mage was pretty much relegated to very early UO as rules changes made them far less useful. 

    It is also nonsense about roles, UO had tons of roles you could play depending on your skillset and they could be required in many different situations.  All your post does is display ignorance of UO and how limited your role was in EQ.

    Yeah I actually feel sorry for the EQ advocates, they cannot grasp the fact how limited the game made their characters.  Pretty sad you cannot recognize that fact.

    Its funny, because i did the same thing with this, and was actually going to say, one of my favorite "classes" of all time was my macer in UO..

    Being able to slowly destroy someones armor till it fell off of them use to just make me smile.. When my guild used to have pvp practice nights every Sunday, folks would just ICQ the hell out of me ; )

     

     

    Can you imagine having the capabilities of destrying someones armour in this day and age of MMOs?

    Blashemy!

  • RajCajRajCaj Member UncommonPosts: 704
    Originally posted by nariusseldon




    Right now, I'm enjoying swinging my axe at a tree to raise up my lumbering in Darkfall a thousand times because I LIKE the fact that it feels like I'm accomplishing something not everyone will do, making my efforts worth something. Add to that the fact that in DF, I can easily be killed if I'm not careful doing my mining and lumbering or fishing, and it does make those tasks which usually seem mundane or dull to others, actually interesting AND difficult.
    Well, anyone who thinks swinging at a tree a thousand time, even have to watch their back, is fun ... is certainly not mainstream. I wouldn't play a game where the game mechanics is so boring. I would much rather go to run a dungeon. At least i got to FIGHT something, which is fun.
    And if that feels an accomplishment, try writing "I like DF" 1000 times. I am sure that is something "not everyone will do" and make your effort worth something ... NOT.
     



     

    Well anyone who runs the same dungeon they have ran 50 times already is boring and dumb......see what I did there? 

    In all honesty......I've had 10x the amount of adreneline rushes doing something as simple and mondaine as mining in UO than I've had PvPing in WOW over the last 4 years.....true story.  Actually I take that back....I don't think I've ever got that "heart pounding in your throat" feeling EVER in WOW. 

    Different fix for different folks.

  • RajCajRajCaj Member UncommonPosts: 704
    Originally posted by Marcus-

    Originally posted by Ozmodan


    I was going to say something about this so called tank mage bent you were on the first time, but decided to let it slide.   If you had played UO much you would realize that the tank mage was pretty much relegated to very early UO as rules changes made them far less useful. 
    It is also nonsense about roles, UO had tons of roles you could play depending on your skillset and they could be required in many different situations.  All your post does is display ignorance of UO and how limited your role was in EQ.


    Yeah I actually feel sorry for the EQ advocates, they cannot grasp the fact how limited the game made their characters.  Pretty sad you cannot recognize that fact.

    Its funny, because i did the same thing with this, and was actually going to say, one of my favorite "classes" of all time was my macer in UO..

    Being able to slowly destroy someones armor till it fell off of them use to just make me smile.. When my guild used to have pvp practice nights every Sunday, folks would just ICQ the hell out of me ; )

     

     

    Can you imagine having the capabilities of destrying someones armour in this day and age of MMOs?

    Blashemy!

    It's Blasphemy because almost all of the "themepark" MMOs revolve around GEAR.  If 90% of your time is spent trying to get that next piece of gear and someone broke it...or looted it off your dead body, of course they would quit your game on the spot.

     

    A perminant gear model limits so much of what your able to do as far as RISK is involved in gameplay.  Higher Risk yeilds Higher Rewards yeilds Higher Highs.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by RajCaj

    Originally posted by nariusseldon




    Right now, I'm enjoying swinging my axe at a tree to raise up my lumbering in Darkfall a thousand times because I LIKE the fact that it feels like I'm accomplishing something not everyone will do, making my efforts worth something. Add to that the fact that in DF, I can easily be killed if I'm not careful doing my mining and lumbering or fishing, and it does make those tasks which usually seem mundane or dull to others, actually interesting AND difficult.
    Well, anyone who thinks swinging at a tree a thousand time, even have to watch their back, is fun ... is certainly not mainstream. I wouldn't play a game where the game mechanics is so boring. I would much rather go to run a dungeon. At least i got to FIGHT something, which is fun.
    And if that feels an accomplishment, try writing "I like DF" 1000 times. I am sure that is something "not everyone will do" and make your effort worth something ... NOT.
     



     

    Well anyone who runs the same dungeon they have ran 50 times already is boring and dumb......see what I did there? 

    In all honesty......I've had 10x the amount of adreneline rushes doing something as simple and mondaine as mining in UO than I've had PvPing in WOW over the last 4 years.....true story.  Actually I take that back....I don't think I've ever got that "heart pounding in your throat" feeling EVER in WOW. 

    Different fix for different folks.

     

    Compared to hitting a tree 1000 times, doing the same dungeon 50 times is great gameplay. At least you get to fight different mobs & bosses.

  • Marcus-Marcus- Member UncommonPosts: 1,006
    Originally posted by RajCaj

    Originally posted by Marcus-

    Originally posted by Ozmodan


    I was going to say something about this so called tank mage bent you were on the first time, but decided to let it slide.   If you had played UO much you would realize that the tank mage was pretty much relegated to very early UO as rules changes made them far less useful. 
    It is also nonsense about roles, UO had tons of roles you could play depending on your skillset and they could be required in many different situations.  All your post does is display ignorance of UO and how limited your role was in EQ.


    Yeah I actually feel sorry for the EQ advocates, they cannot grasp the fact how limited the game made their characters.  Pretty sad you cannot recognize that fact.

    Its funny, because i did the same thing with this, and was actually going to say, one of my favorite "classes" of all time was my macer in UO..

    Being able to slowly destroy someones armor till it fell off of them use to just make me smile.. When my guild used to have pvp practice nights every Sunday, folks would just ICQ the hell out of me ; )

     

     

    Can you imagine having the capabilities of destrying someones armour in this day and age of MMOs?

    Blashemy!

    It's Blasphemy because almost all of the "themepark" MMOs revolve around GEAR.  If 90% of your time is spent trying to get that next piece of gear and someone broke it...or looted it off your dead body, of course they would quit your game on the spot.

     

    A perminant gear model limits so much of what your able to do as far as RISK is involved in gameplay.  Higher Risk yeilds Higher Rewards yeilds Higher Highs.

    You're preaching to the choir...

     

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