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UO should have been our future

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  • JosherJosher Member Posts: 2,818
    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Item oriented games gives unfair advantage to people who have more time to spend in game (or more real life money to buy items and game currency on the black market). It creates player social classes, terrible PvP imbalance issues and a black market for currency. A 6 month old player who didn't have great gear but knew his character well could wipe the floor with a 3 year vet fulled decked out in top stuff but was terrible at playing their toon.
    The experience wasn't only a hack - n - slash deal with UO....and is main reason the game is still kicking today. Player housing is the single most attractive thing about the game left and it shows. Google Ultima Online housing and take a look at the creativity the players are afforded in that system.
    The question is which one is more entertaining and we all know the answer to that.
    And sure, UO is still kicking ... runescape is still kicking. CS is still kicking. There are a lot of old games that are still kicking. That is nothing special. If housing is so important, i don't see people asking for it. In fact, this survey does not even have people asking for it.
    http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001630.php
    I have no doubt a small grp of people want it. But if it is important, blizzard would have put it in. Personally i don't see what is the fuzz.
    And in fact, UO is not popular precisely because it is not a hack-n-slash. Games focuses on H&S and do a good job is successful because that is a very entertaining form of gaming. Just look at Diablo and all the SP/MP hack-n-slash games.

    This is how business works...How much money would it take to develop a housing system in WOW?   And would this housing system actual bring in people who would NOT buy the game otherwise?  Would people quit if housing does NOT get added?  Will the revenue from these NEW subscribers - the loss of money from those who will quit, offset the cost of developing the housing system in the first place?  If Blizzard has no idea or has little proof at all that people will actually buy the game if they add housing or quit the game if they don't, Blizzard couldn't care less about it.  Would it be cool for some people?  Sure it would.  But for how many?  Its not like adding fluff.  A well done housing system isn't cheap to design.

    Now compare that kind of feature to say... a harsh death penalty.  Thats VERY measurable.  People would not play the game with a harsh penalty or if Blizzard changed it and made it harsher, people would certainly quit over it.   Housing??  You think people who enjoy WOW really care about housing?  Maybe one day they'll add it in, maybe as a test bed for the next MMO they're working on.  They have the money=)

  • xxpigxxxxpigxx Member UncommonPosts: 412

    In all honesty, I do believe that SWG got it nearly perfect.

     

    Sandbox

     

    PvE and (consensual) PvP

     

    Crafting

     

    Hosuing

     

    Faction vs Faction

     

     

     

    If they would have just fixed the damned bugs (and not gone the NGE route  lol) . . .

  • EvasiaEvasia Member Posts: 2,827

    I say future is already here Darkfall go try it,  its awesome!!!

    Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
    In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.

  • RajCajRajCaj Member UncommonPosts: 704
    Originally posted by nariusseldon


     
    In your two examples, only the hardcore complains and they consist of a small part of the population. I just spent the whole nite (2-3 hours) clearing the blood prince ICC 25 man and certainly we don't think it is too easy (it would be prob when everyone geared up and know the fight better). I don't think I care about what the real hard core players think. If they are not happy, they can quit and find some other games.
    Of course, fast & quick is subject to interpretation. The yardstick is probably something like WOW .. you get something done in an hour, at least two. That can be a small chance of an item, or a few badge going towards an item.
    UO is certainly not getting this right on this count.
     
     

    Quit and go where?  Blizzard has created too big of financial barriers to entery in the market to allow superior PvE or PvP games to exist.  They have created a market that is impossible to please unless your able to make things easier and more rewarding than the standard (WOW). 

     

    This whole discussion has gotten way sidetracked into a debate over specific games...

    My final point is this......my opinion is that more games like UO have not been atempted not because of the merits UO stands on, but because its not financially viable considering the new and expanded MMO market that has been flooded by more casual and instant gratification seeking gamers that formerly got their fix in single player console games and first person shooters.

    Just because the entire gaming community doesn't agree with the UO system doesn't mean that its a bad model for a fantasy Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.  It just means that a lot of gamers that Blizzard has drawn to the genere, due to the casual nature of the game, won't like it.  Unfortunately that translates into "not enough subs to justify the investment" by any major publisher.

    Any independent that does attempt it faces the bane of internet scourn and bad word of mouth because the launch sucked due to poor investment in infrastructure, resources, & development.  (See Darkfall)

  • Originally posted by Evasia


    I say future is already here Darkfall go try it,  its awesome!!!

     

    You know, the constant DF evangelism does not help DF at all.  It makes people mistrust you and aim to take the game down simply because people constantly mention it as the next coming of Jesus.

     

    This is especially true in a thread like this because no matter how much you like that game its crafting is no where near as mature as UO's crafting was. 

     

    It is nice that DF has the crafting/durability model on its items.  I personally think this is superior to the EQ-line of games with their permanent equipment.  But lcaiming it is the future is well, wrong.  DF is an FPS style MMORPG with some influence from UO.  It is not the future and improved UO. 

     

    In fact I would argue they failed to learn some of the lessons of UO.  Use based skilling for example causes just plain silly things to be done by your player base.  Everyone knows it too.

     

    People want to say DF is a unique game with some nice feature and captures some of the magic of UO that is fine.  But this constant evangelism just makes people want to see the game die in a fire.  Some Darkfall fans are the MMO equivalent of Jehovah's Witnesses.

  • JosherJosher Member Posts: 2,818
    Originally posted by RajCaj

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


     
    In your two examples, only the hardcore complains and they consist of a small part of the population. I just spent the whole nite (2-3 hours) clearing the blood prince ICC 25 man and certainly we don't think it is too easy (it would be prob when everyone geared up and know the fight better). I don't think I care about what the real hard core players think. If they are not happy, they can quit and find some other games.
    Of course, fast & quick is subject to interpretation. The yardstick is probably something like WOW .. you get something done in an hour, at least two. That can be a small chance of an item, or a few badge going towards an item.
    UO is certainly not getting this right on this count.
     
     

    Quit and go where?  Blizzard has created too big of financial barriers to entery in the market to allow superior PvE or PvP games to exist.  They have created a market that is impossible to please unless your able to make things easier and more rewarding than the standard (WOW). 

     

    This whole discussion has gotten way sidetracked into a debate over specific games...

    My final point is this......my opinion is that more games like UO have not been atempted not because of the merits UO stands on, but because its not financially viable considering the new and expanded MMO market that has been flooded by more casual and instant gratification seeking gamers that formerly got their fix in single player console games and first person shooters.

    Just because the entire gaming community doesn't agree with the UO system doesn't mean that its a bad model for a fantasy Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.  It just means that a lot of gamers that Blizzard has drawn to the genere, due to the casual nature of the game, won't like it.  Unfortunately that translates into "not enough subs to justify the investment" by any major publisher.

    Any independent that does attempt it faces the bane of internet scourn and bad word of mouth because the launch sucked due to poor investment in infrastructure, resources, & development.  (See Darkfall)

    Its a good model depending on the scale you wish to acheive.  For Darkfall, its a GREAT model.  Its a tiny niche game that has no where to go but up, much like Eve when it launched.  Start at the bottom of the barrel and if you survive, you've accomplished something.  Make something so different from whats out there, you just MIGHT hit it big.  Or, you'll crash and burn, hehe.

  • Originally posted by Josher

    Originally posted by RajCaj

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


     
    In your two examples, only the hardcore complains and they consist of a small part of the population. I just spent the whole nite (2-3 hours) clearing the blood prince ICC 25 man and certainly we don't think it is too easy (it would be prob when everyone geared up and know the fight better). I don't think I care about what the real hard core players think. If they are not happy, they can quit and find some other games.
    Of course, fast & quick is subject to interpretation. The yardstick is probably something like WOW .. you get something done in an hour, at least two. That can be a small chance of an item, or a few badge going towards an item.
    UO is certainly not getting this right on this count.
     
     

    Quit and go where?  Blizzard has created too big of financial barriers to entery in the market to allow superior PvE or PvP games to exist.  They have created a market that is impossible to please unless your able to make things easier and more rewarding than the standard (WOW). 

     

    This whole discussion has gotten way sidetracked into a debate over specific games...

    My final point is this......my opinion is that more games like UO have not been atempted not because of the merits UO stands on, but because its not financially viable considering the new and expanded MMO market that has been flooded by more casual and instant gratification seeking gamers that formerly got their fix in single player console games and first person shooters.

    Just because the entire gaming community doesn't agree with the UO system doesn't mean that its a bad model for a fantasy Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.  It just means that a lot of gamers that Blizzard has drawn to the genere, due to the casual nature of the game, won't like it.  Unfortunately that translates into "not enough subs to justify the investment" by any major publisher.

    Any independent that does attempt it faces the bane of internet scourn and bad word of mouth because the launch sucked due to poor investment in infrastructure, resources, & development.  (See Darkfall)

    Its a good model depending on the scale you wish to acheive.  For Darkfall, its a GREAT model.  Its a tiny niche game that has no where to go but up, much like Eve when it launched.  Start at the bottom of the barrel and if you survive, you've accomplished something.  Make something so different from whats out there, you just MIGHT hit it big.  Or, you'll crash and burn, hehe.

     

    The class system of RPGs has always been more popular all the way back to D&D versus GURPS.   This trend will continue because when you are talking about free form class systems in an environment where people want to work together and complement each other a free form skill system has obvious issues.

     

    The contrast of EQ roles versus UO freedom was not created in the year 2000 its been around since 1980 or so.  I personally do not like classes but I understand their value in these things.  Even FPS like Team Fortress have learned this lesson.

      

    In fact the relative proportions are even still holding up.  Class system are not just more popular, they are much more popular.  Was true in table top days.  Was true in MUD days.  Is now true in MMORPG days.

     

    The only thing I really really wish was that the non class games and systems would stop imitating the use based skilling.  It really is just a silly system.  It may seem to make sense at first blush but it just causes really silly behavior.  UO is one of the more prominent cases of this but it existed before UO and exists now in games like Darkfall.

     

    Games like Neocron and EvE learned the lesson of the use based skilling silliness.  I think Neocron's system was decent compromise of keeping some semblance of use without the silly macro grinding.  But now it seems like people are forgetting that lesson and going back to this silly idea. 

     

    I like skill systems, but I do not like use based skilling.  I came to this conclusion before UO was ever released as the major MUD I played had use based skilling.  We did the same silly things people do in Darkfall now to get skills up.  Not everything from UO was a good model and UO had plenty of prior games to have realized this.  Just like current MMOs have plenty to work from as well.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by RajCaj

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


     
    In your two examples, only the hardcore complains and they consist of a small part of the population. I just spent the whole nite (2-3 hours) clearing the blood prince ICC 25 man and certainly we don't think it is too easy (it would be prob when everyone geared up and know the fight better). I don't think I care about what the real hard core players think. If they are not happy, they can quit and find some other games.
    Of course, fast & quick is subject to interpretation. The yardstick is probably something like WOW .. you get something done in an hour, at least two. That can be a small chance of an item, or a few badge going towards an item.
    UO is certainly not getting this right on this count.
     
     

    Quit and go where?  Blizzard has created too big of financial barriers to entery in the market to allow superior PvE or PvP games to exist.  They have created a market that is impossible to please unless your able to make things easier and more rewarding than the standard (WOW). 

     

    This whole discussion has gotten way sidetracked into a debate over specific games...

    My final point is this......my opinion is that more games like UO have not been atempted not because of the merits UO stands on, but because its not financially viable considering the new and expanded MMO market that has been flooded by more casual and instant gratification seeking gamers that formerly got their fix in single player console games and first person shooters.

    Just because the entire gaming community doesn't agree with the UO system doesn't mean that its a bad model for a fantasy Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.  It just means that a lot of gamers that Blizzard has drawn to the genere, due to the casual nature of the game, won't like it.  Unfortunately that translates into "not enough subs to justify the investment" by any major publisher.

    Any independent that does attempt it faces the bane of internet scourn and bad word of mouth because the launch sucked due to poor investment in infrastructure, resources, & development.  (See Darkfall)

     

    No where. It is not like MMORPG is the only entertainment options out there. Do something else if you don't like MMORPGs anymore.

     

  • JosherJosher Member Posts: 2,818
    Originally posted by gestalt11



     

    The class system of RPGs has always been more popular all the way back to D&D versus GURPS.   This trend will continue because when you are talking about free form class systems in an environment where people want to work together and complement each other a free form skill system has obvious issues.

     

    The contrast of EQ roles versus UO freedom was not created in the year 2000 its been around since 1980 or so.  I personally do not like classes but I understand their value in these things.  Even FPS like Team Fortress have learned this lesson.

      

    In fact the relative proportions are even still holding up.  Class system are not just more popular, they are much more popular.  Was true in table top days.  Was true in MUD days.  Is now true in MMORPG days.

     

    The only thing I really really wish was that the non class games and systems would stop imitating the use based skilling.  It really is just a silly system.  It may seem to make sense at first blush but it just causes really silly behavior.  UO is one of the more prominent cases of this but it existed before UO and exists now in games like Darkfall.

     

    Games like Neocron and EvE learned the lesson of the use based skilling silliness.  I think Neocron's system was decent compromise of keeping some semblance of use without the silly macro grinding.  But now it seems like people are forgetting that lesson and going back to this silly idea. 

     

    I like skill systems, but I do not like use based skilling.  I came to this conclusion before UO was ever released as the major MUD I played had use based skilling.  We did the same silly things people do in Darkfall now to get skills up.  Not everything from UO was a good model and UO had plenty of prior games to have realized this.  Just like current MMOs have plenty to work from as well.

    Thats why I liked WOW's skill system thats buried under the class/level system.  Your axe or sword skill goes up as you use it, but you don't just sit there and hit a tree 1000 times to get better at using a sword.  As a Shaman I used everything as I was leveling up just to make sure I was good at everything.  If I found a good axe, I started using it.  If I got a great dagger, I started using that and a shield for a while.  But I didn't just sit there mindlessly leveling up a SKILL.  It just got leveled in the background as I played without turning it into some sort of MIN/MAX procedure that skill based games force upon you.  It was a nice hybrid...a skill point system within a LEVELING system.  I wasn't playing to get better at using a sword.  I was questing and adventuring and I just got better at whatever I was using as I played.  I wasn't playing to level up a SKILL.  I was playing to just play.  Anyone who was playing UO knows for damn sure many, many people were spending lots of time just using skills to make them better.  That was the goal.  Get Fireball to X skill level.   LAME!!

  • CeridithCeridith Member UncommonPosts: 2,980
    Originally posted by Josher 
    Thats why I liked WOW's skill system thats buried under the class/level system.  Your axe or sword skill goes up as you use it, but you don't just sit there and hit a tree 1000 times to get better at using a sword.  As a Shaman I used everything as I was leveling up just to make sure I was good at everything.  If I found a good axe, I started using it.  If I got a great dagger, I started using that and a shield for a while.  But I didn't just sit there mindlessly leveling up a SKILL.  It just got leveled in the background as I played without turning it into some sort of MIN/MAX procedure that skill based games force upon you.  It was a nice hybrid...a skill point system within a LEVELING system.  I wasn't playing to get better at using a sword.  I was questing and adventuring and I just got better at whatever I was using as I played.  I wasn't playing to level up a SKILL.  I was playing to just play.  Anyone who was playing UO knows for damn sure many, many people were spending lots of time just using skills to make them better.  That was the goal.  Get Fireball to X skill level.   LAME!!

     

    WoW's system isn't even worthy of being considered a hybrid. The weaponskill gain systems might as well not exist, since even if you do get new weapon you're at zero with, you can max it out in less than an hour anyways, so it's fairly irrelevant to the longterm 'advancement' of a character.

    I actually prefer UO's system, because you actually had to do what you wanted to learn, rather than gaining general XP to be able to do what you wanted. It just feels silly to become better at fighting, casting, and various other adventurer abilities, by performing tasks such as delivering a message from one NPC to another. I guess it's preference, but I'd prefer to actually use my abilities to have to advance them, and not be locked into a generic advancement pool.

  • chriswsmchriswsm Member UncommonPosts: 383

    UO was the 'dogs danglies' of its day and I only stopped playing it when I genuinely got bored of it.  This took 4 years.

     

    Every MMO I have played since I have played for less than 4 years and gotten bored with much faster and no game since UO has had housing that felt like it really belonged to the player.   Where else can you say "I built that".

     

    My large manor just north of Trinsic was a beauty to behold and not with any game since have I really experienced ownership of a home.

    I used to visit this site a lot however in recent years it has become the home of negative forum posts, illogical opinions and tantrums so I visit less often.

    Played or Beta'd: UO / DAOC / Horizons / EQ2 / DDO / EVE / Archlord / PirateKingsOnline / Tabula Rasa / LOTRO / AOC / Champions / Darkfall / Mortal Online / DCUO / Rift / STO / SWTOR / TSW

  • CeridithCeridith Member UncommonPosts: 2,980
    Originally posted by chriswsm


    UO was the 'dogs danglies' of its day and I only stopped playing it when I genuinely got bored of it.  This took 4 years.
     
    Every MMO I have played since I have played for less than 4 years and gotten bored with much faster and no game since UO has had housing that felt like it really belonged to the player.   Where else can you say "I built that".
     
    My large manor just north of Trinsic was a beauty to behold and not with any game since have I really experienced ownership of a home.

     

    And yet if you asked for player housing or any other form of extended character customization in nearly any of the newer MMOs you get the token response of "Go play the Sims if you want that [insert derogatory word for homosexuals here]" from most of the other players...

    It's sad what most MMOs, and their communities, have become.

  • Originally posted by Ceridith

    Originally posted by Josher 
    Thats why I liked WOW's skill system thats buried under the class/level system.  Your axe or sword skill goes up as you use it, but you don't just sit there and hit a tree 1000 times to get better at using a sword.  As a Shaman I used everything as I was leveling up just to make sure I was good at everything.  If I found a good axe, I started using it.  If I got a great dagger, I started using that and a shield for a while.  But I didn't just sit there mindlessly leveling up a SKILL.  It just got leveled in the background as I played without turning it into some sort of MIN/MAX procedure that skill based games force upon you.  It was a nice hybrid...a skill point system within a LEVELING system.  I wasn't playing to get better at using a sword.  I was questing and adventuring and I just got better at whatever I was using as I played.  I wasn't playing to level up a SKILL.  I was playing to just play.  Anyone who was playing UO knows for damn sure many, many people were spending lots of time just using skills to make them better.  That was the goal.  Get Fireball to X skill level.   LAME!!

     

    WoW's system isn't even worthy of being considered a hybrid. The weaponskill gain systems might as well not exist, since even if you do get new weapon you're at zero with, you can max it out in less than an hour anyways, so it's fairly irrelevant to the longterm 'advancement' of a character.

    I actually prefer UO's system, because you actually had to do what you wanted to learn, rather than gaining general XP to be able to do what you wanted. It just feels silly to become better at fighting, casting, and various other adventurer abilities, by performing tasks such as delivering a message from one NPC to another. I guess it's preference, but I'd prefer to actually use my abilities to have to advance them, and not be locked into a generic advancement pool.

     

    Yeah WoW's skill system was barely important at all and was use based skilling anyway.

     

    Neocron is a game that was clearly influenced by UO, I mean they had a bar called the Garriot Cafe.  They have true hybrid system.

     

    They had stats and skills.  Each skill is assiocated with a stat.  For example small guns was part ofthe Dex stat.  When you used a pistol you would eventually gain a point in dex.  This would raise that stat and then give you some skill points to spend in the skills that were under the dex stat.  You could conceivably raise rifles by shooting pistols.  But you could not raise defensive psi by shooting a pistol. 

    But you only got "stat xp" by using a weapon against a mob.  I am not entirely sure of the calculation but basically each time you shot a mob you got a certain amount of stat xp.  The amount of xp depended on a mobs relative power compared to you.  They had some kind of compelx funky calculation to figure this out, since the game was not really level based although it had a funky formula to tell you how advanced you were based on skill points.

     

    So in order to increase running in Neocron you had to fight,  however you had to use something that increased Str.  The system was somewhat use based but you did not say point yourself at a wall and run in place for 10 hours to train the Run skill.

    In addition there were four races which controlled what stat maxes you could attain.  This was done to avoid the tank-mage affect.  It was impossible to have high Psi (basically magic/pyschic powers) and have high Dex/Str(normal combat stuff like guns or melee).  Only Psi-monks could have high Psi, and they had mediocre Dex/Str.  The Spy race could have high Dex but not huge Str or Psi.  A Private Eye race was medium in most.  These were not classes nor even "roles" as a psi monk could go offensive Psi or defensive Psi or medium in both.  But they did exert some control on what you can and can't do so that certain Tank-Mage combinations were not possible.

    So in order for a Gen-Tank to train up its rather pitiful Psi abilities they did in fact have to use a Psi Gauntlet and get a Psi power and use it.  They may have obtained xp using an offensive psi skill and then used the skill point for defensive Psi.

     

    The system was not perfect nor did it completely avoid some of the silliness of use based systems.  Ie. Gen-tanks would wind up getting some token Psi training power just to increase their psi defense skill.

     

    But it was nice because it had the feeling of use based stuff without some of the very obviously silly stuff like running in place for hours.  Similarly it had a rather interesting way to maintain alot of the charater of a skill system but limiting the tank mage effect.

    One of the interesting consequences of this system is that as you got more points in a stat it was progressively harder to get more points, just like with most xp systems.  But the conesquence of this is haveing high Dex and high pistols skill, meant that traing Rifles up at that point was a lot of work.  Ie. you can't easily just train every single skill up to a mediocre level and be a jack of all trades with out any real bad consequences.  If you wanted to be a jack of trades in Neocron, you were a jack of all trades, period. 

    Most pure skill based system everyone is at least a partial jack of all trades and then specializes in some skills.  In Neocron jack of all trades and specialization were two separate options.  If you specialized could not be a jack of all trades and jack of all trades was not somehow easier or less time consuming it was just how you chose to distribute your skill points.  Both characters would have had a similar investment to get to similar skills points.   This is something that is not true of pure use basesd skilling such as UO.

     

  • xxpigxxxxpigxx Member UncommonPosts: 412
    Originally posted by Evasia


    I say future is already here Darkfall go try it,  its awesome!!!

     

    I played DFO from the beginning of beta until a few months after release.  I resub every now and then when I am bored.

     

    It is a far cry from UO.

  • xxpigxxxxpigxx Member UncommonPosts: 412
    Originally posted by gestalt11

    Originally posted by Josher

    Originally posted by RajCaj

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


     
    In your two examples, only the hardcore complains and they consist of a small part of the population. I just spent the whole nite (2-3 hours) clearing the blood prince ICC 25 man and certainly we don't think it is too easy (it would be prob when everyone geared up and know the fight better). I don't think I care about what the real hard core players think. If they are not happy, they can quit and find some other games.
    Of course, fast & quick is subject to interpretation. The yardstick is probably something like WOW .. you get something done in an hour, at least two. That can be a small chance of an item, or a few badge going towards an item.
    UO is certainly not getting this right on this count.
     
     

    Quit and go where?  Blizzard has created too big of financial barriers to entery in the market to allow superior PvE or PvP games to exist.  They have created a market that is impossible to please unless your able to make things easier and more rewarding than the standard (WOW). 

     

    This whole discussion has gotten way sidetracked into a debate over specific games...

    My final point is this......my opinion is that more games like UO have not been atempted not because of the merits UO stands on, but because its not financially viable considering the new and expanded MMO market that has been flooded by more casual and instant gratification seeking gamers that formerly got their fix in single player console games and first person shooters.

    Just because the entire gaming community doesn't agree with the UO system doesn't mean that its a bad model for a fantasy Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.  It just means that a lot of gamers that Blizzard has drawn to the genere, due to the casual nature of the game, won't like it.  Unfortunately that translates into "not enough subs to justify the investment" by any major publisher.

    Any independent that does attempt it faces the bane of internet scourn and bad word of mouth because the launch sucked due to poor investment in infrastructure, resources, & development.  (See Darkfall)

    Its a good model depending on the scale you wish to acheive.  For Darkfall, its a GREAT model.  Its a tiny niche game that has no where to go but up, much like Eve when it launched.  Start at the bottom of the barrel and if you survive, you've accomplished something.  Make something so different from whats out there, you just MIGHT hit it big.  Or, you'll crash and burn, hehe.

     

    The class system of RPGs has always been more popular all the way back to D&D versus GURPS.   This trend will continue because when you are talking about free form class systems in an environment where people want to work together and complement each other a free form skill system has obvious issues.

     

    The contrast of EQ roles versus UO freedom was not created in the year 2000 its been around since 1980 or so.  I personally do not like classes but I understand their value in these things.  Even FPS like Team Fortress have learned this lesson.

      

    In fact the relative proportions are even still holding up.  Class system are not just more popular, they are much more popular.  Was true in table top days.  Was true in MUD days.  Is now true in MMORPG days.

     

    The only thing I really really wish was that the non class games and systems would stop imitating the use based skilling.  It really is just a silly system.  It may seem to make sense at first blush but it just causes really silly behavior.  UO is one of the more prominent cases of this but it existed before UO and exists now in games like Darkfall.

     

    Games like Neocron and EvE learned the lesson of the use based skilling silliness.  I think Neocron's system was decent compromise of keeping some semblance of use without the silly macro grinding.  But now it seems like people are forgetting that lesson and going back to this silly idea. 

     

    I like skill systems, but I do not like use based skilling.  I came to this conclusion before UO was ever released as the major MUD I played had use based skilling.  We did the same silly things people do in Darkfall now to get skills up.  Not everything from UO was a good model and UO had plenty of prior games to have realized this.  Just like current MMOs have plenty to work from as well.

     

    Not to sound like a broken record. but SWG had the best use of skills/class system that I have ever seen.

  • JosherJosher Member Posts: 2,818
    Originally posted by Ceridith

    Originally posted by Josher 
    Thats why I liked WOW's skill system thats buried under the class/level system.  Your axe or sword skill goes up as you use it, but you don't just sit there and hit a tree 1000 times to get better at using a sword.  As a Shaman I used everything as I was leveling up just to make sure I was good at everything.  If I found a good axe, I started using it.  If I got a great dagger, I started using that and a shield for a while.  But I didn't just sit there mindlessly leveling up a SKILL.  It just got leveled in the background as I played without turning it into some sort of MIN/MAX procedure that skill based games force upon you.  It was a nice hybrid...a skill point system within a LEVELING system.  I wasn't playing to get better at using a sword.  I was questing and adventuring and I just got better at whatever I was using as I played.  I wasn't playing to level up a SKILL.  I was playing to just play.  Anyone who was playing UO knows for damn sure many, many people were spending lots of time just using skills to make them better.  That was the goal.  Get Fireball to X skill level.   LAME!!

     

    WoW's system isn't even worthy of being considered a hybrid. The weaponskill gain systems might as well not exist, since even if you do get new weapon you're at zero with, you can max it out in less than an hour anyways, so it's fairly irrelevant to the longterm 'advancement' of a character.

    I actually prefer UO's system, because you actually had to do what you wanted to learn, rather than gaining general XP to be able to do what you wanted. It just feels silly to become better at fighting, casting, and various other adventurer abilities, by performing tasks such as delivering a message from one NPC to another. I guess it's preference, but I'd prefer to actually use my abilities to have to advance them, and not be locked into a generic advancement pool.

    It was just a little something extra to give using different weapons a little sense.  Doesn't matter though.  UOs amazing skill system was flawed to the core.  Tank Mages.  Case closed.  With all the options UO offered, WOW's class system offered MORE viable options.  I say viable because every class in WOW when played well was competitive.  You could NEVER say that about UO.  You either used one of a couple of templates that were actually useful at any single time or you got whooped.  So essentially all those choices meant diddly squat, unless using underpowered, broken or gimped skills were choices?  Hardly. But people can play what they want.   

    We're talking combat here, by the way=)

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Ceridith

    Originally posted by chriswsm


    UO was the 'dogs danglies' of its day and I only stopped playing it when I genuinely got bored of it.  This took 4 years.
     
    Every MMO I have played since I have played for less than 4 years and gotten bored with much faster and no game since UO has had housing that felt like it really belonged to the player.   Where else can you say "I built that".
     
    My large manor just north of Trinsic was a beauty to behold and not with any game since have I really experienced ownership of a home.

     

    And yet if you asked for player housing or any other form of extended character customization in nearly any of the newer MMOs you get the token response of "Go play the Sims if you want that [insert derogatory word for homosexuals here]" from most of the other players...

    It's sad what most MMOs, and their communities, have become.

     

    That would be good advice. If I want to play house, i would play the SIMS. I play MMORPGs to have good boss fights with my guildmates and wat not.

  • xxpigxxxxpigxx Member UncommonPosts: 412
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Ceridith

    Originally posted by chriswsm


    UO was the 'dogs danglies' of its day and I only stopped playing it when I genuinely got bored of it.  This took 4 years.
     
    Every MMO I have played since I have played for less than 4 years and gotten bored with much faster and no game since UO has had housing that felt like it really belonged to the player.   Where else can you say "I built that".
     
    My large manor just north of Trinsic was a beauty to behold and not with any game since have I really experienced ownership of a home.

     

    And yet if you asked for player housing or any other form of extended character customization in nearly any of the newer MMOs you get the token response of "Go play the Sims if you want that [insert derogatory word for homosexuals here]" from most of the other players...

    It's sad what most MMOs, and their communities, have become.

     

    That would be good advice. If I want to play house, i would play the SIMS. I play MMORPGs to have good boss fights with my guildmates and wat not.

     

    Then go play NWN . . .

  • lisubablisubab Member Posts: 670
    Originally posted by -Zeno-


    I fully agree.  UO should of been our future.  Instead we end up waiting 13  years for something good to come out (Darkfall) while hundreds of EQ clones, like WoW, live and die.

     

    Ironically, you idea of a successor has only 2 servers, while many of the games that "live and die" has far more sub even at the blink of death than your petty darkfall.  You really need to dig deep to find a game with a small player base than DF.

    Now, that does not begin to suggest which game is better, but your way of expression is ridden with double standard, and almost outright folly.  After all, most of the UO players stayed in UO and I do not notice mass exodus from UO to DF, that seems to suggest not all UO gamers see DF as a good successor.

  • csthaocsthao Member UncommonPosts: 1,119
    Originally posted by Knightcry

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


     
    Nah .. i was in UO beta and thought that it was a horrible game. Clicking nonstop to level mining. Everyone a tank mage. Pk is rampant. You can't move 10 feet without being killed. Any place with any resources is camped to the hilt.
    I jumped ship once EQ came out. Never look back. Despite with all the problems (down-time, camping ..), EQ is 10x the game UO is. And i am glad that the industry moved AWAY from the UO model. And by the maximum subscription rate of this two games, a lot more people like the EQ model than the UO model.

     

    I doubt you were in beta just by a few key points of what you said.  I then take the fact you say "any place with resources is camped..." and think you either didn't play at all and love to tell a tale or you were horribly dumb and mined in Brit pass thinking it was the only place to mine. 

    This give me things easy mentality is what caused EQ to take off. The thing is UO wasn't that hardcore, it just required you to think once in a while..."omg there is a red maybe I should walk by him"...Wrong son, hit hide, cast invis or run if you don't want to fight him. If you see a guy snooping your bags don't lawl, move away or kill him hes gonna steal from you.

    I must thank you for jumping ship if you did play UO at any given time. Without you EQ players we wouldn't have WoW and all the quest/level clones we have today.



     

    Sadly you can't teach common sense...People just dont wanna think anymore, they want things to be made easy.

  • crunchyblackcrunchyblack Member Posts: 1,362
    Originally posted by Knightcry


    I recall in '01 playing Ultima Onlne thinking this is great and I can't imagine what great games this will spawn.  Back then I thought we would see games developed that would offer complex house building, farming lands and herding wild animals into pens to sheer and slaughter. Games with balance in pve and pvp where both aren't game makers or breakers but both are fun. Content that is player created and supported by the company and vice versa.
    Imagine what gaming would be like if gaming went with the UO style rather than the EQ style. I for one think it sounds better than hitting level 9000 and raiding to gain super sayain gear with flames.
     



     

     

    Id fcking shoot myself if mmo-gaming apexed at herding sheep, farming, and interior decorating.

     

  • Got_Game_TVGot_Game_TV Member UncommonPosts: 262

    UO was a great game for many different reasons.  It contained all the different types of players and put them into one world and let them do their thing.  PKs (which split into different subsets like griefers or pvpers), Anti-pks (opportunists or pvpers) and crafters/etc would all play their different play styles in the same game.   It was the INTERACTION between these different types of players that made the game fun. 

    UO's 3/4 view interface allowed players to see anyone within range which is a much different style of combat than it's 1st person successors.  The precasting involved with magery and dynamics of the game (certain spells being used to interrupt your opponents casting) were fantastic for pvp strategy and skill.  Every player having access to a self-heal spell as well as other methods of healing were also excellent and developed an awesome pvp dynamic. 

    UO's downfall was multifaceted and took time.  Adding stat loss to murderer death (thus eliminating a significant amount of the PK players) was a major hit by eliminating one side of the interaction process.  Trammel also took it's toll by removing the interaction between the different player types. 

    I could go further but I'm far too lazy to try to think of all the different ways that UO was ahead of it's time.  I still occasionally go back and play UO-Hybrid but you still don't get the interactions that were in the original game.  The MMO market is so saturated that different play styles go to play in a different game if they don't like the rule-set.  Ah well. 

  • lisubablisubab Member Posts: 670
    Originally posted by firefly2003


    I forgot to add if your going to have a sandbox/themepark MMO not all of the game should be centered around combat and have noncombat professions like crafters and enterainers give people the choice to do lots of things in game giving more social type game play.

     

    That was exactly the charm of SWG in the early days.  One of my alts never take up any combat.

  • PyscoJuggaloPyscoJuggalo Member UncommonPosts: 1,114
    Originally posted by Axehilt


    OP, I think you meant to say, "I wanted UO to be my future."
    Our future was determined by which games players enjoyed (and thus subscribed to) more.

     

    Nope, Marketing did it.  Good marketing beats what people really want every time.  There is a reason why McDonalds makes a heck of a lot of money, and it ain't because people think Big Macs are the greatest food ever.

    image
    --When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii.
    --In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses.
    --The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!
    --CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.

  • EmeraqEmeraq Member UncommonPosts: 1,056
    Originally posted by Knightcry


     No lore? UO one of the longest running lores in any mmo. If you mean the Ultima series has a lot of lore, you would be right, but UO, no, it did nothing in my view to expand, fulfill or complete the legacy that is the Ultima series... There wasnNo story, no direction, and basically in my opinion the approach they took with Lore in UO was go do/make your own and do whatever until you are bored , which for me took a little less than a year.  You then stated mobs were randomly placed? Wow, what game did you play? Zombies in the graveyard, deer in the woods and dragons in a cave.....yeah sure there guy. You even went farther saying it was an overglorified dungeon crawler.... all I can say is wrong again and keep kids off drugs. Npcs all had a building designed for the profession they represented and a damn sign, how is the hell is that random placement? Wow, there is an archery butte...must be an archer nearby to train with....WTF! You need to read a little better, I said that they plopped down some critters/NPC's and that the spawn was random, not the NPC/critter placement.
     
    Everyone is entitled to an opinion on a game but just randomly making things up about it to serve your dislike is lame.  No one needed quests in UO because the game was a quest to get to your house and back.  Selling fel stones to trammies was great but for them I bet it was a quest and a half trying to stay alive and not losing their gear before they could get a stone.  It was a mission to track hidden in your home when a thief moved into the area.  Whatever caused such hatred towards a game to make thing up about it worth talking about. You might want to air them out. You might want to calm down on your over-defensiveness, I've made nothing up. You realize and stated that I have a right to my opinion and my views of the game, but accuse me of making things up, I played UO for about a year, a little less, and I what I recall is a boring, stat grinding, dungeon crawling based game. Just because sandbox games with no real direction other than whatever story pops into your mind when you log in is to somes liking, doesn't mean it has to be mine.... I've said it in the past, I'll say it again, the gamers should not have to create the story, the game, the fun, that's the job of the publisher, developer, GM. You wouldn't expect a GM of a table top RPG to sit down and say, okay the forest is full of deer, the caves full of dragons, the graveyard full of zombies and liches, just tell me where you want to go and what you want to do and I'll just sit back, describe the scenery to you and roll the dice and tell you the results of your attacks. You want to talk to an NPC, oh okay well no real need, they don't have anything that needs done unless you want to walk them to destination X.... At least I wouldn't, I would demand story, I would demand tasks that NPC's need accomplishing, an over all goal/mission to complete. In my estimation UO didn't have that.
     
    - Almost forgot to add this even though it was in my mind.  The gm and dev team constantly took part in the community creating huge events for everyone that went along with its lore(that it didn't have:P). The Trinsic invasion was probably the most memorable but they had a ton of things like that. Some that even changed the individual server from the next.

     

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