UO would have been fine if they hadn't caved in to whiners. Developers need to stick to the game instead of catering to a group of peoples play style. If the game is configured a certain way and you don't like it, find another game that suits your play style. Don't get all emo and cry, just move on.
So instead they should've ignored MOST people and risked losing most of the player base if they didn't make Trammel? The ONLY reason people stuck around after EQ was because of Trammel. Once an alternative MMO was available people didn't need to stick around in UO if they didn't like it all that much. They just wouldn't said, Buh bye. At least it was able to limp along all these years.
All you needed to do was look at who went where when Trammel came out. Now pretend anyone that left for Trammel, wouldve just quit instead. What would UO be then? A forgotten MMO.
UO would have been fine if they hadn't caved in to whiners. Developers need to stick to the game instead of catering to a group of peoples play style. If the game is configured a certain way and you don't like it, find another game that suits your play style. Don't get all emo and cry, just move on.
So instead they should've ignored MOST people and risked losing most of the player base if they didn't make Trammel? The ONLY reason people stuck around after EQ was because of Trammel. Once an alternative MMO was available people didn't need to stick around in UO if they didn't like it all that much. They just wouldn't said, Buh bye. At least it was able to limp along all these years.
All you needed to do was look at who went where when Trammel came out. Now pretend anyone that left for Trammel, wouldve just quit instead. What would UO be then? A forgotten MMO.
Yes, no one is forcing you to play the game. If you don't like it, leave. Leave those who do enjoy it alone.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
UO would have been fine if they hadn't caved in to whiners. Developers need to stick to the game instead of catering to a group of peoples play style. If the game is configured a certain way and you don't like it, find another game that suits your play style. Don't get all emo and cry, just move on.
Depends on exactly what you mean.
Adding Trammel saved the game from itself, or rather, the small group of players who liked to stomp on everyone else. Prior to Trammel being added, UO was starting to bleed subscribers. After the expansion that added trammel, the sub numbers quickly doubled in only a few months. Trammel pushed UO to it's peak, despite what many others say.
Now I can understand the hatred for adding Trammel, but it really did help the overall game in the longrun. The ironic thing is that so many people complained about servers having non-PvP areas added... so Origin created a PvP only server, which go figure, many PvPers avoided... possibly because it was more hardcore than they wanted -- 1 character only, harder skill gains, higher vendor costs, etc.
Age of shadows however, killed the game. it pretty much shifted the focus towards being gear heavy, which was the opposite of what the game was supposed to be. It devalued the worth of a lot of crafting skills, to the point where the only way to make decent items required you to deal with their ridiculous order deed lottery system, which ended up further devaluing crafting skills because it attracted so many people to crafting who were just in it for the gold/loot of the order deed system, rather than because they actually just wanted to craft.
UO would have been fine if they hadn't caved in to whiners. Developers need to stick to the game instead of catering to a group of peoples play style. If the game is configured a certain way and you don't like it, find another game that suits your play style. Don't get all emo and cry, just move on.
So instead they should've ignored MOST people and risked losing most of the player base if they didn't make Trammel? The ONLY reason people stuck around after EQ was because of Trammel. Once an alternative MMO was available people didn't need to stick around in UO if they didn't like it all that much. They just wouldn't said, Buh bye. At least it was able to limp along all these years.
All you needed to do was look at who went where when Trammel came out. Now pretend anyone that left for Trammel, wouldve just quit instead. What would UO be then? A forgotten MMO.
Yes, no one is forcing you to play the game. If you don't like it, leave. Leave those who do enjoy it alone.
Correct, but would there have been enough players to keep supporting it, much less create any expansions? Hard to say. UO's future would've been pretty dim with barely 100k players or less. All I know is, my friend said Felucia was a ghost town within weeks. The only reason to go there was to screw around.
I think I said what I meant to say. Sorry you don't understand Mr. Sheep.
The way I put it is the reality of the situation. You can choose to fling poorly-veiled personal insults, or you can recognize the reality of the situation for what it is and admit that it's unrealistic to want the entire game design industry to cater to the demands of the minority.
You reported me for calling you a sheep... The reality of the situation is you engage someone in forum pvp and on a reply try to draw me out again. You state that the minority dictated how the industry went due to subscription rate which again prove you know nothing about the conversation. UO had 250k subs at the same time EQ had 300k which was huge for the day. EQ was backed by who.... a huge company with money and marketing. 50,000 people was the difference of the future of the mmo. Uo offered more than EQ and always did but due to marketing we got stuck with the current. Stay out of my thread Axehilt you aren't welcome.
The problem is they did listen to the vocal part of the community and it damn near killed the game. The more they listened the more it died out. This was because a lot of the younger crowd wanted instant gratification and popular cool colors. This is the same thing we see in games today, flashy sparkly fairy vampires that get gear for free(poked at twilight had too).
When is the last time we got a good game with UO style of game play and options? We haven't. Some games touch on the pvp but where are the other options? UO offered almost limitless things bound only by the amount of imagination of the user. Remember how people would mix and match aprons to form a different look? I could keep going but the point is we got what a small percent wanted. Just because people play Wow doesn't make it what we all want, it means maybe that is all there is. Give us a game that is supported as well as WoW, with the unlimited amount of possibilities of UO and updated graphics:P and it would take off. Easy mode or easy mode? People will get bored of that just like trammel and they all end up in siege perilous longing for what they had killed.
The 250k versus 300k is merely a snapshot which in itself has no meaning if taken out of context as it is in this case. For the 'sandbox' crowd there is apparently no argument to convoluted or far fetched to advocate their case. I'm sure I could pick a date shortly after Everquest's release in 1999 and make a claim that UO had 200k customers then and EQ 50k (these numbers are arbitrarily chosen for the sake of example) and argue from there that UO was so much better because it had so much more subscribers. That doesn't make it any more true however.
From the moment a choice became available a trend began which continues to this day. And it's not in favor of the 'sandbox FFA PvP'.
Insult the general public as you like with being 'garbage people playing garbage games' or being unable to recognize a marketing scheme. It really paints a most favorable picture of the people which are drawn to UO-type games, I'm sure.
PS.: And oh yes, it all is of course the fault of that mystical crowd of youngsters who want 'instant gratification'. How could I forget?
Don't you think with all the recent "failures" of these types of games ( Warhammer/Conan as two quick examples), failures being relative to what was expected of course, someone with serious money might take a shot at a sandbox? Does it have to be FFA full loot? No, I wouldn't think so, I'm sure variances could be made, but i'm not a developer.
Small indie companies created Darkfall and EvE, and for what was put into it, I would think both are doing fairly well. The market is certainly out there.
I was going to respond but it is pointless. This is like republicans and democrats fighting about national policy in the USA. You can't introduce anything that isn't mainstream to the other side without going back and forth trying to prove what is right. People that would enjoy UO, that did enjoy UO deserve a game that caters to us. Until then everyone including the UO lovers will have to play what EQ gave us. Funny enough people hate on WoW all day here yet defend EQ and the model when really its almost all the same.
Marcus- If a game was given the time, money and effort WoW or some of these other games get/got, i'm sure the conversation would be different.
I recall in '01 playing Ultima Onlne thinking this is great and I can't imagine what great games this will spawn. Back then I thought we would see games developed that would offer complex house building, farming lands and herding wild animals into pens to sheer and slaughter. Games with balance in pve and pvp where both aren't game makers or breakers but both are fun. Content that is player created and supported by the company and vice versa. Imagine what gaming would be like if gaming went with the UO style rather than the EQ style. I for one think it sounds better than hitting level 9000 and raiding to gain super sayain gear with flames.
You mean hardcore gaming style? i am sorry but since MMOs became mainstream its casual players who earn these companies there bread and butter. UO was never mean to be played casually. If i had no life and 12 hours a day to burn i would play games like UO.
This is BS. I am a casual player, and I prefer sandbox MMOs. However, I do not expect to keep up with the progression of those who are playing the game 8+ hours per day, 7 days per week. I know it may take me a year or longer to cap out, and I just enjoy the journey.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I recall in '01 playing Ultima Onlne thinking this is great and I can't imagine what great games this will spawn. Back then I thought we would see games developed that would offer complex house building, farming lands and herding wild animals into pens to sheer and slaughter. Games with balance in pve and pvp where both aren't game makers or breakers but both are fun. Content that is player created and supported by the company and vice versa. Imagine what gaming would be like if gaming went with the UO style rather than the EQ style. I for one think it sounds better than hitting level 9000 and raiding to gain super sayain gear with flames.
You mean hardcore gaming style? i am sorry but since MMOs became mainstream its casual players who earn these companies there bread and butter. UO was never mean to be played casually. If i had no life and 12 hours a day to burn i would play games like UO.
This is BS. I am a casual player, and I prefer sandbox MMOs. However, I do not expect to keep up with the progression of those who are playing the game 8+ hours per day, 7 days per week. I know it may take me a year or longer to cap out, and I just enjoy the journey.
I recall in '01 playing Ultima Onlne thinking this is great and I can't imagine what great games this will spawn. Back then I thought we would see games developed that would offer complex house building, farming lands and herding wild animals into pens to sheer and slaughter. Games with balance in pve and pvp where both aren't game makers or breakers but both are fun. Content that is player created and supported by the company and vice versa. Imagine what gaming would be like if gaming went with the UO style rather than the EQ style. I for one think it sounds better than hitting level 9000 and raiding to gain super sayain gear with flames.
I didn't read the responses jsut the OP and I agree %100. i'm also tired of players telling me what I want and don't want because I clearly know what I want and it would be a game like UO. To some degree the wow grinders are thinking too hard. But I think op and I are in a minority or we'd have said next gen games.......of course there is eve which is the only real sandbox worth playing.
I was going to respond but it is pointless. This is like republicans and democrats fighting about national policy in the USA. You can't introduce anything that isn't mainstream to the other side without going back and forth trying to prove what is right. People that would enjoy UO, that did enjoy UO deserve a game that caters to us. Until then everyone including the UO lovers will have to play what EQ gave us. Funny enough people hate on WoW all day here yet defend EQ and the model when really its almost all the same.
Marcus- If a game was given the time, money and effort WoW or some of these other games get/got, i'm sure the conversation would be different.
Old eq (just because I don't know what it has become) and WoW are rather different.
EQ was about winners and losers. It was about competition. In Sony's view a player was an elite raider or trying to become one. There was no soloer. There was no grouper.
WoW was/is all about achievement and advancement. Paths to success and advancement were given to everyone because WoW viewed people as trying to better themselves not competing (too much) and catered to that.
The gameplay is similar but the design philosophy was very different. The complaints for WoW mainly revolve around the fact that there is no losers, that everyone can achieve.
The problem with trying to recreate UO is 3d engines probably still can't handle it today.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
There have been a few games that tried to make a hybrid of this type but still had the class and level system. I tried both and they were pretty awful although one went on for some time and I beleive only recently finally closed down for good, while the other I think is in the Hall of Fame for Epic Fail.
Shadowbane and
Horizons.
To the discussion about what did and didnt kill UO. I think I remember it being a combination of Trammel and EQ launching and gaining a pretty good following. I never left UO for years and years after EQ came out before I finally gave in eventually. I also have re subbed to it multiple times over the years and the game is still able to hold my attention except for that missing portion. While some might argue that Trammel helped UO hang on I feel it was the reverse. Those people who left because of it became some of the hard core gamers of today and also a lot of developers. Whenever you hear one wax on about UO it is always Trammel given for the reason they left. Such a swift and harsh move to do what they felt was saving their game actually contributed more to EQ's rise more than any other factor. It was a mega ton blunder on their part and if we had a time machine it would be great to go back and see what would have been different had they just stuck with the Stat loss penalty route.
As horrible as it was to get PK'd and I feel that UO is responsible for much trauma in that regard lol, It was also a thing that created very strong community and friendships. When a large group of people dedicated themselves to being ANTI PK and formed posses etc to go and hunt them down it was just something that will never be repeated.
Anyway good topic I always enjoy talking about this game even though it gets pretty ugly.
As horrible as it was to get PK'd and I feel that UO is responsible for much trauma in that regard lol, It was also a thing that created very strong community and friendships. When a large group of people dedicated themselves to being ANTI PK and formed posses etc to go and hunt them down it was just something that will never be repeated.
The possies, good times.
Only really possible because of chosen location teleportation, IMO. My favorite part was when we'd take down a few of them from some of the dedicated pvp guild and use their teleportation runes to track them back to their bases for the real excitement like finding out who the notorious PK's blue character was. And occasionally get ambushed and trapped on a tiny island somewhere for a while.
The current mainstream territory control model for open pvp just doesn't seem nearly as exciting just because it is rather controlled.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Back to the original thought. There have been a few games that tried to make a hybrid of this type but still had the class and level system. I tried both and they were pretty awful although one went on for some time and I beleive only recently finally closed down for good, while the other I think is in the Hall of Fame for Epic Fail. Shadowbane and Horizons.
To the discussion about what did and didnt kill UO. I think I remember it being a combination of Trammel and EQ launching and gaining a pretty good following. I never left UO for years and years after EQ came out before I finally gave in eventually. I also have re subbed to it multiple times over the years and the game is still able to hold my attention except for that missing portion. While some might argue that Trammel helped UO hang on I feel it was the reverse. Those people who left because of it became some of the hard core gamers of today and also a lot of developers. Whenever you hear one wax on about UO it is always Trammel given for the reason they left. Such a swift and harsh move to do what they felt was saving their game actually contributed more to EQ's rise more than any other factor. It was a mega ton blunder on their part and if we had a time machine it would be great to go back and see what would have been different had they just stuck with the Stat loss penalty route.
As horrible as it was to get PK'd and I feel that UO is responsible for much trauma in that regard lol, It was also a thing that created very strong community and friendships. When a large group of people dedicated themselves to being ANTI PK and formed posses etc to go and hunt them down it was just something that will never be repeated.
Anyway good topic I always enjoy talking about this game even though it gets pretty ugly.
Actually Horizons is still around. It went through some management changes till finally some of the original devs bought it and changed the name to Istaria. Still the best (but still grindiest) crafting around, with best plots/housing/lairs around, only game that lets you play a dragon and virtually unlimited skills.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I recall in '01 playing Ultima Onlne thinking this is great and I can't imagine what great games this will spawn. Back then I thought we would see games developed that would offer complex house building, farming lands and herding wild animals into pens to sheer and slaughter. Games with balance in pve and pvp where both aren't game makers or breakers but both are fun. Content that is player created and supported by the company and vice versa. Imagine what gaming would be like if gaming went with the UO style rather than the EQ style. I for one think it sounds better than hitting level 9000 and raiding to gain super sayain gear with flames.
You mean hardcore gaming style? i am sorry but since MMOs became mainstream its casual players who earn these companies there bread and butter. UO was never mean to be played casually. If i had no life and 12 hours a day to burn i would play games like UO.
You've obviously never played UO then. The whole point in UO was you could do whatever you wanted, some things took longer, some not so much. It's ironic that the raids in a lot of these "casual" games consume more time than any one thing in most sandbox games.
You say that the whole point of UO was that you could do whatever you wanted, but I viewed that very fact a problem. The game had no quests, no story, no true lore, and I, among others I'm sure, don't play a game to develop my own quests, story and content, it's the game developers job to create story, quests, CONTENT in general, not mine.
. In my view All UO was/is, is a game where the developers plopped down random spawning creatures/humanoids of varying difficulty to kill, and NPC's plopped down here and there for buying/selling, training skills etc, and the only quests were lame escort missions. It did have the best crafting system, just my opinion, but that wasnt' enough to keep me playing.
IMO the game was an overglorified dungeon crawler, and at that UO didn't even have the story/lore/quests/content of say a Diablo 2... Unless you RP'ed which I don't.
No lore? UO one of the longest running lores in any mmo. You then stated mobs were randomly placed? Wow, what game did you play? Zombies in the graveyard, deer in the woods and dragons in a cave.....yeah sure there guy. You even went farther saying it was an overglorified dungeon crawler.... all I can say is wrong again and keep kids off drugs. Npcs all had a building designed for the profession they represented and a damn sign, how is the hell is that random placement? Wow, there is an archery butte...must be an archer nearby to train with....WTF!
Everyone is entitled to an opinion on a game but just randomly making things up about it to serve your dislike is lame. No one needed quests in UO because the game was a quest to get to your house and back. Selling fel stones to trammies was great but for them I bet it was a quest and a half trying to stay alive and not losing their gear before they could get a stone. It was a mission to track hidden in your home when a thief moved into the area. Whatever caused such hatred towards a game to make thing up about it worth talking about. You might want to air them out.
- Almost forgot to add this even though it was in my mind. The gm and dev team constantly took part in the community creating huge events for everyone that went along with its lore(that it didn't have:P). The Trinsic invasion was probably the most memorable but they had a ton of things like that. Some that even changed the individual server from the next.
If enough people will stop supporting empty-shell MMOs and start supporting the sandbox-type games out there now then we would start to see changes. The problem is the industry is getting watered down with garbage games.
What you are saying is, "Everybody stop playing games I do not want to play and play the games I am playing".
Is there a more selfish way of wishing things to be?
I recall in '01 playing Ultima Onlne thinking this is great and I can't imagine what great games this will spawn. Back then I thought we would see games developed that would offer complex house building, farming lands and herding wild animals into pens to sheer and slaughter. Games with balance in pve and pvp where both aren't game makers or breakers but both are fun. Content that is player created and supported by the company and vice versa. Imagine what gaming would be like if gaming went with the UO style rather than the EQ style. I for one think it sounds better than hitting level 9000 and raiding to gain super sayain gear with flames.
You mean hardcore gaming style? i am sorry but since MMOs became mainstream its casual players who earn these companies there bread and butter. UO was never mean to be played casually. If i had no life and 12 hours a day to burn i would play games like UO.
You've obviously never played UO then. The whole point in UO was you could do whatever you wanted, some things took longer, some not so much. It's ironic that the raids in a lot of these "casual" games consume more time than any one thing in most sandbox games.
You say that the whole point of UO was that you could do whatever you wanted, but I viewed that very fact a problem. The game had no quests, no story, no true lore, and I, among others I'm sure, don't play a game to develop my own quests, story and content, it's the game developers job to create story, quests, CONTENT in general, not mine.
. In my view All UO was/is, is a game where the developers plopped down random spawning creatures/humanoids of varying difficulty to kill, and NPC's plopped down here and there for buying/selling, training skills etc, and the only quests were lame escort missions. It did have the best crafting system, just my opinion, but that wasnt' enough to keep me playing.
IMO the game was an overglorified dungeon crawler, and at that UO didn't even have the story/lore/quests/content of say a Diablo 2... Unless you RP'ed which I don't.
The lore was there. Though mostly would only be recognizable by those that read the sight or previously knew Ultima. The game was never meant to have quests. It wasn't supposed to have static content or developer designed goals. The game was meant to be a large sandbox for players to play in and create their own world then real time events would drive overall story and change the world in ways players obviously could not and sometimes those changes would reflect the actions of the players on the individual servers. Some events did occur for a while but EA didn't believe in that vision of the game. The game was never meant to be like WoW and that is why many of us loved it.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
I recall in '01 playing Ultima Onlne thinking this is great and I can't imagine what great games this will spawn. Back then I thought we would see games developed that would offer complex house building, farming lands and herding wild animals into pens to sheer and slaughter. Games with balance in pve and pvp where both aren't game makers or breakers but both are fun. Content that is player created and supported by the company and vice versa. Imagine what gaming would be like if gaming went with the UO style rather than the EQ style. I for one think it sounds better than hitting level 9000 and raiding to gain super sayain gear with flames.
You mean hardcore gaming style? i am sorry but since MMOs became mainstream its casual players who earn these companies there bread and butter. UO was never mean to be played casually. If i had no life and 12 hours a day to burn i would play games like UO.
You've obviously never played UO then. The whole point in UO was you could do whatever you wanted, some things took longer, some not so much. It's ironic that the raids in a lot of these "casual" games consume more time than any one thing in most sandbox games.
You say that the whole point of UO was that you could do whatever you wanted, but I viewed that very fact a problem. The game had no quests, no story, no true lore, and I, among others I'm sure, don't play a game to develop my own quests, story and content, it's the game developers job to create story, quests, CONTENT in general, not mine.
. In my view All UO was/is, is a game where the developers plopped down random spawning creatures/humanoids of varying difficulty to kill, and NPC's plopped down here and there for buying/selling, training skills etc, and the only quests were lame escort missions. It did have the best crafting system, just my opinion, but that wasnt' enough to keep me playing.
IMO the game was an overglorified dungeon crawler, and at that UO didn't even have the story/lore/quests/content of say a Diablo 2... Unless you RP'ed which I don't.
No quests is a bad thing?
I'll share a memory that's at least 8 years old, if not older. I was a bit of a newb, and had saved all my gold to buy a verite sword. Like a newb, I pretty much carried it everywhere with me for a short while, and then the inevitable happened, I was ganked and looted. I wrote down the looter's name on a notepad, and sat off for vengeance. I eventually found the guy fighting some monsters, he was halfway down on life, so I jumped him and got the kill. Didn't get my sword, but I got a better weapon off of him, and some nice plate armor. After that, I had an arch-nemesis for nearly a year that I always had to watch my back for, as he and his buddies would jump me on site and go out of their way to chase me around. It made gameplay much more fun, something as simple as running to my house could be a hell of a gauntlet.
But hey, I'm sure killing 10 boars would have been better, right?
With UO, building a character and getting gear was just a means to play the game. With these EQ clones, unless you're an avid PvPer, building your character IS the game, and that's why a lot of us would like to see a "new UO".
Nah .. i was in UO beta and thought that it was a horrible game. Clicking nonstop to level mining. Everyone a tank mage. Pk is rampant. You can't move 10 feet without being killed. Any place with any resources is camped to the hilt. I jumped ship once EQ came out. Never look back. Despite with all the problems (down-time, camping ..), EQ is 10x the game UO is. And i am glad that the industry moved AWAY from the UO model. And by the maximum subscription rate of this two games, a lot more people like the EQ model than the UO model.
I doubt you were in beta just by a few key points of what you said. I then take the fact you say "any place with resources is camped..." and think you either didn't play at all and love to tell a tale or you were horribly dumb and mined in Brit pass thinking it was the only place to mine.
This give me things easy mentality is what caused EQ to take off. The thing is UO wasn't that hardcore, it just required you to think once in a while..."omg there is a red maybe I should walk by him"...Wrong son, hit hide, cast invis or run if you don't want to fight him. If you see a guy snooping your bags don't lawl, move away or kill him hes gonna steal from you.
I must thank you for jumping ship if you did play UO at any given time. Without you EQ players we wouldn't have WoW and all the quest/level clones we have today.
Amen brother... Pks frequented certain areas. I hated loosing my gear, then I wised up an learned how to fght back. You could run from pks even with e-bolts heading for your back.
I never felt such a heart pounding adrenaline rush from any other game. People act like there were pks everywhere too. The ratio of pk to "norm" was probably 1:25. The problem was that alot of players had the skill set to kill pks, they were just too soft and lacked the ability. There were far more Anit-pks hunting then there were pk's.
And to comment on loosing your gear. Sheesh, yes it sucked, yes I wanted to toss my monitor out the window many times, but that consequence made me work harder. Not like other games were you have your elite gear and they only way you can loose it is if you DE it.
I recall in '01 playing Ultima Onlne thinking this is great and I can't imagine what great games this will spawn. Back then I thought we would see games developed that would offer complex house building, farming lands and herding wild animals into pens to sheer and slaughter. Games with balance in pve and pvp where both aren't game makers or breakers but both are fun. Content that is player created and supported by the company and vice versa. Imagine what gaming would be like if gaming went with the UO style rather than the EQ style. I for one think it sounds better than hitting level 9000 and raiding to gain super sayain gear with flames.
You mean hardcore gaming style? i am sorry but since MMOs became mainstream its casual players who earn these companies there bread and butter. UO was never mean to be played casually. If i had no life and 12 hours a day to burn i would play games like UO.
You've obviously never played UO then. The whole point in UO was you could do whatever you wanted, some things took longer, some not so much. It's ironic that the raids in a lot of these "casual" games consume more time than any one thing in most sandbox games.
You say that the whole point of UO was that you could do whatever you wanted, but I viewed that very fact a problem. The game had no quests, no story, no true lore, and I, among others I'm sure, don't play a game to develop my own quests, story and content, it's the game developers job to create story, quests, CONTENT in general, not mine.
. In my view All UO was/is, is a game where the developers plopped down random spawning creatures/humanoids of varying difficulty to kill, and NPC's plopped down here and there for buying/selling, training skills etc, and the only quests were lame escort missions. It did have the best crafting system, just my opinion, but that wasnt' enough to keep me playing.
IMO the game was an overglorified dungeon crawler, and at that UO didn't even have the story/lore/quests/content of say a Diablo 2... Unless you RP'ed which I don't.
The game was meant to be a large sandbox for players to play in and create their own world then real time events would drive overall story and change the world in ways players obviously could not and sometimes those changes would reflect the actions of the players on the individual servers. Some events did occur for a while but EA didn't believe in that vision of the game. The game was never meant to be like WoW and that is why many of us loved it.
And THATS why the game was great. God forbid we play in a world that our actions reflect on the community and the game is not spoon fed to us with lore.
Some people like a "themepark" style MMO when they are hand held through out the game. Quite frankly I would like to know how many people in themepark games actually read all the quest content when recieing a new quest. I would guess that 2/3rds of the people don't.
It would be nice to have a healthy mix of both, but todats MMO gamer likes instant gratification sans consequence. That is whats wrong with society in general these days.
Marcus- wrote: "I don't doubt that people want an "easier" enviorment for there free time, and thats why WoW has 11 million uasers, and Darkfall has a whole lot less. Makes sense."
It's less about difficulty. Even WOW players want gameplay that challenges them.
It's more about accessibility, and game mechanics which encourage players to play and have fun rather than punish them harshly for failure.
Knightcry wrote: "You reported me for calling you a sheep... The reality of the situation is you engage someone in forum pvp and on a reply try to draw me out again. You state that the minority dictated how the industry went due to subscription rate which again prove you know nothing about the conversation. UO had 250k subs at the same time EQ had 300k which was huge for the day. EQ was backed by who.... a huge company with money and marketing. 50,000 people was the difference of the future of the mmo. Uo offered more than EQ and always did but due to marketing we got stuck with the current. Stay out of my thread Axehilt you aren't welcome."
I didn't report you.
And I'm a bit confused that in this chart when UO has 250k subs, EQ has ~375k subs.
Also I'm a bit confused that when I said the majority dictates where the industry goes, you claim I said the minority dictates where it goes. Please try not to put words in others' mouths, especially when you claim they're saying the exact opposite of what they actually said.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
So instead they should've ignored MOST people and risked losing most of the player base if they didn't make Trammel? The ONLY reason people stuck around after EQ was because of Trammel. Once an alternative MMO was available people didn't need to stick around in UO if they didn't like it all that much. They just wouldn't said, Buh bye. At least it was able to limp along all these years.
All you needed to do was look at who went where when Trammel came out. Now pretend anyone that left for Trammel, wouldve just quit instead. What would UO be then? A forgotten MMO.
So instead they should've ignored MOST people and risked losing most of the player base if they didn't make Trammel? The ONLY reason people stuck around after EQ was because of Trammel. Once an alternative MMO was available people didn't need to stick around in UO if they didn't like it all that much. They just wouldn't said, Buh bye. At least it was able to limp along all these years.
All you needed to do was look at who went where when Trammel came out. Now pretend anyone that left for Trammel, wouldve just quit instead. What would UO be then? A forgotten MMO.
Yes, no one is forcing you to play the game. If you don't like it, leave. Leave those who do enjoy it alone.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Depends on exactly what you mean.
Adding Trammel saved the game from itself, or rather, the small group of players who liked to stomp on everyone else. Prior to Trammel being added, UO was starting to bleed subscribers. After the expansion that added trammel, the sub numbers quickly doubled in only a few months. Trammel pushed UO to it's peak, despite what many others say.
Now I can understand the hatred for adding Trammel, but it really did help the overall game in the longrun. The ironic thing is that so many people complained about servers having non-PvP areas added... so Origin created a PvP only server, which go figure, many PvPers avoided... possibly because it was more hardcore than they wanted -- 1 character only, harder skill gains, higher vendor costs, etc.
Age of shadows however, killed the game. it pretty much shifted the focus towards being gear heavy, which was the opposite of what the game was supposed to be. It devalued the worth of a lot of crafting skills, to the point where the only way to make decent items required you to deal with their ridiculous order deed lottery system, which ended up further devaluing crafting skills because it attracted so many people to crafting who were just in it for the gold/loot of the order deed system, rather than because they actually just wanted to craft.
So instead they should've ignored MOST people and risked losing most of the player base if they didn't make Trammel? The ONLY reason people stuck around after EQ was because of Trammel. Once an alternative MMO was available people didn't need to stick around in UO if they didn't like it all that much. They just wouldn't said, Buh bye. At least it was able to limp along all these years.
All you needed to do was look at who went where when Trammel came out. Now pretend anyone that left for Trammel, wouldve just quit instead. What would UO be then? A forgotten MMO.
Yes, no one is forcing you to play the game. If you don't like it, leave. Leave those who do enjoy it alone.
Correct, but would there have been enough players to keep supporting it, much less create any expansions? Hard to say. UO's future would've been pretty dim with barely 100k players or less. All I know is, my friend said Felucia was a ghost town within weeks. The only reason to go there was to screw around.
maybe it's just a mather of age
pk is violence
someone crying for loosing some loot is probably a 12 yr old
game industry aims at the biggest groups so maybe thats the reason games with depth and logic sence r hard to find
The way I put it is the reality of the situation. You can choose to fling poorly-veiled personal insults, or you can recognize the reality of the situation for what it is and admit that it's unrealistic to want the entire game design industry to cater to the demands of the minority.
You reported me for calling you a sheep... The reality of the situation is you engage someone in forum pvp and on a reply try to draw me out again. You state that the minority dictated how the industry went due to subscription rate which again prove you know nothing about the conversation. UO had 250k subs at the same time EQ had 300k which was huge for the day. EQ was backed by who.... a huge company with money and marketing. 50,000 people was the difference of the future of the mmo. Uo offered more than EQ and always did but due to marketing we got stuck with the current. Stay out of my thread Axehilt you aren't welcome.
The problem is they did listen to the vocal part of the community and it damn near killed the game. The more they listened the more it died out. This was because a lot of the younger crowd wanted instant gratification and popular cool colors. This is the same thing we see in games today, flashy sparkly fairy vampires that get gear for free(poked at twilight had too).
When is the last time we got a good game with UO style of game play and options? We haven't. Some games touch on the pvp but where are the other options? UO offered almost limitless things bound only by the amount of imagination of the user. Remember how people would mix and match aprons to form a different look? I could keep going but the point is we got what a small percent wanted. Just because people play Wow doesn't make it what we all want, it means maybe that is all there is. Give us a game that is supported as well as WoW, with the unlimited amount of possibilities of UO and updated graphics:P and it would take off. Easy mode or easy mode? People will get bored of that just like trammel and they all end up in siege perilous longing for what they had killed.
The 250k versus 300k is merely a snapshot which in itself has no meaning if taken out of context as it is in this case. For the 'sandbox' crowd there is apparently no argument to convoluted or far fetched to advocate their case. I'm sure I could pick a date shortly after Everquest's release in 1999 and make a claim that UO had 200k customers then and EQ 50k (these numbers are arbitrarily chosen for the sake of example) and argue from there that UO was so much better because it had so much more subscribers. That doesn't make it any more true however.
From the moment a choice became available a trend began which continues to this day. And it's not in favor of the 'sandbox FFA PvP'.
Insult the general public as you like with being 'garbage people playing garbage games' or being unable to recognize a marketing scheme. It really paints a most favorable picture of the people which are drawn to UO-type games, I'm sure.
PS.: And oh yes, it all is of course the fault of that mystical crowd of youngsters who want 'instant gratification'. How could I forget?
Don't you think with all the recent "failures" of these types of games ( Warhammer/Conan as two quick examples), failures being relative to what was expected of course, someone with serious money might take a shot at a sandbox? Does it have to be FFA full loot? No, I wouldn't think so, I'm sure variances could be made, but i'm not a developer.
Small indie companies created Darkfall and EvE, and for what was put into it, I would think both are doing fairly well. The market is certainly out there.
/shrug
I was going to respond but it is pointless. This is like republicans and democrats fighting about national policy in the USA. You can't introduce anything that isn't mainstream to the other side without going back and forth trying to prove what is right. People that would enjoy UO, that did enjoy UO deserve a game that caters to us. Until then everyone including the UO lovers will have to play what EQ gave us. Funny enough people hate on WoW all day here yet defend EQ and the model when really its almost all the same.
Marcus- If a game was given the time, money and effort WoW or some of these other games get/got, i'm sure the conversation would be different.
You mean hardcore gaming style? i am sorry but since MMOs became mainstream its casual players who earn these companies there bread and butter. UO was never mean to be played casually. If i had no life and 12 hours a day to burn i would play games like UO.
This is BS. I am a casual player, and I prefer sandbox MMOs. However, I do not expect to keep up with the progression of those who are playing the game 8+ hours per day, 7 days per week. I know it may take me a year or longer to cap out, and I just enjoy the journey.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
You mean hardcore gaming style? i am sorry but since MMOs became mainstream its casual players who earn these companies there bread and butter. UO was never mean to be played casually. If i had no life and 12 hours a day to burn i would play games like UO.
This is BS. I am a casual player, and I prefer sandbox MMOs. However, I do not expect to keep up with the progression of those who are playing the game 8+ hours per day, 7 days per week. I know it may take me a year or longer to cap out, and I just enjoy the journey.
And who told you sandbox can not be casual?
I didn't read the responses jsut the OP and I agree %100. i'm also tired of players telling me what I want and don't want because I clearly know what I want and it would be a game like UO. To some degree the wow grinders are thinking too hard. But I think op and I are in a minority or we'd have said next gen games.......of course there is eve which is the only real sandbox worth playing.
Old eq (just because I don't know what it has become) and WoW are rather different.
EQ was about winners and losers. It was about competition. In Sony's view a player was an elite raider or trying to become one. There was no soloer. There was no grouper.
WoW was/is all about achievement and advancement. Paths to success and advancement were given to everyone because WoW viewed people as trying to better themselves not competing (too much) and catered to that.
The gameplay is similar but the design philosophy was very different. The complaints for WoW mainly revolve around the fact that there is no losers, that everyone can achieve.
The problem with trying to recreate UO is 3d engines probably still can't handle it today.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Back to the original thought.
There have been a few games that tried to make a hybrid of this type but still had the class and level system. I tried both and they were pretty awful although one went on for some time and I beleive only recently finally closed down for good, while the other I think is in the Hall of Fame for Epic Fail.
Shadowbane and
Horizons.
To the discussion about what did and didnt kill UO. I think I remember it being a combination of Trammel and EQ launching and gaining a pretty good following. I never left UO for years and years after EQ came out before I finally gave in eventually. I also have re subbed to it multiple times over the years and the game is still able to hold my attention except for that missing portion. While some might argue that Trammel helped UO hang on I feel it was the reverse. Those people who left because of it became some of the hard core gamers of today and also a lot of developers. Whenever you hear one wax on about UO it is always Trammel given for the reason they left. Such a swift and harsh move to do what they felt was saving their game actually contributed more to EQ's rise more than any other factor. It was a mega ton blunder on their part and if we had a time machine it would be great to go back and see what would have been different had they just stuck with the Stat loss penalty route.
As horrible as it was to get PK'd and I feel that UO is responsible for much trauma in that regard lol, It was also a thing that created very strong community and friendships. When a large group of people dedicated themselves to being ANTI PK and formed posses etc to go and hunt them down it was just something that will never be repeated.
Anyway good topic I always enjoy talking about this game even though it gets pretty ugly.
The possies, good times.
Only really possible because of chosen location teleportation, IMO. My favorite part was when we'd take down a few of them from some of the dedicated pvp guild and use their teleportation runes to track them back to their bases for the real excitement like finding out who the notorious PK's blue character was. And occasionally get ambushed and trapped on a tiny island somewhere for a while.
The current mainstream territory control model for open pvp just doesn't seem nearly as exciting just because it is rather controlled.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Actually Horizons is still around. It went through some management changes till finally some of the original devs bought it and changed the name to Istaria. Still the best (but still grindiest) crafting around, with best plots/housing/lairs around, only game that lets you play a dragon and virtually unlimited skills.
Venge Sunsoar
You mean hardcore gaming style? i am sorry but since MMOs became mainstream its casual players who earn these companies there bread and butter. UO was never mean to be played casually. If i had no life and 12 hours a day to burn i would play games like UO.
You've obviously never played UO then. The whole point in UO was you could do whatever you wanted, some things took longer, some not so much. It's ironic that the raids in a lot of these "casual" games consume more time than any one thing in most sandbox games.
You say that the whole point of UO was that you could do whatever you wanted, but I viewed that very fact a problem. The game had no quests, no story, no true lore, and I, among others I'm sure, don't play a game to develop my own quests, story and content, it's the game developers job to create story, quests, CONTENT in general, not mine.
. In my view All UO was/is, is a game where the developers plopped down random spawning creatures/humanoids of varying difficulty to kill, and NPC's plopped down here and there for buying/selling, training skills etc, and the only quests were lame escort missions. It did have the best crafting system, just my opinion, but that wasnt' enough to keep me playing.
IMO the game was an overglorified dungeon crawler, and at that UO didn't even have the story/lore/quests/content of say a Diablo 2... Unless you RP'ed which I don't.
No lore? UO one of the longest running lores in any mmo. You then stated mobs were randomly placed? Wow, what game did you play? Zombies in the graveyard, deer in the woods and dragons in a cave.....yeah sure there guy. You even went farther saying it was an overglorified dungeon crawler.... all I can say is wrong again and keep kids off drugs. Npcs all had a building designed for the profession they represented and a damn sign, how is the hell is that random placement? Wow, there is an archery butte...must be an archer nearby to train with....WTF!
Everyone is entitled to an opinion on a game but just randomly making things up about it to serve your dislike is lame. No one needed quests in UO because the game was a quest to get to your house and back. Selling fel stones to trammies was great but for them I bet it was a quest and a half trying to stay alive and not losing their gear before they could get a stone. It was a mission to track hidden in your home when a thief moved into the area. Whatever caused such hatred towards a game to make thing up about it worth talking about. You might want to air them out.
- Almost forgot to add this even though it was in my mind. The gm and dev team constantly took part in the community creating huge events for everyone that went along with its lore(that it didn't have:P). The Trinsic invasion was probably the most memorable but they had a ton of things like that. Some that even changed the individual server from the next.
What you are saying is, "Everybody stop playing games I do not want to play and play the games I am playing".
Is there a more selfish way of wishing things to be?
You mean hardcore gaming style? i am sorry but since MMOs became mainstream its casual players who earn these companies there bread and butter. UO was never mean to be played casually. If i had no life and 12 hours a day to burn i would play games like UO.
You've obviously never played UO then. The whole point in UO was you could do whatever you wanted, some things took longer, some not so much. It's ironic that the raids in a lot of these "casual" games consume more time than any one thing in most sandbox games.
You say that the whole point of UO was that you could do whatever you wanted, but I viewed that very fact a problem. The game had no quests, no story, no true lore, and I, among others I'm sure, don't play a game to develop my own quests, story and content, it's the game developers job to create story, quests, CONTENT in general, not mine.
. In my view All UO was/is, is a game where the developers plopped down random spawning creatures/humanoids of varying difficulty to kill, and NPC's plopped down here and there for buying/selling, training skills etc, and the only quests were lame escort missions. It did have the best crafting system, just my opinion, but that wasnt' enough to keep me playing.
IMO the game was an overglorified dungeon crawler, and at that UO didn't even have the story/lore/quests/content of say a Diablo 2... Unless you RP'ed which I don't.
The lore was there. Though mostly would only be recognizable by those that read the sight or previously knew Ultima. The game was never meant to have quests. It wasn't supposed to have static content or developer designed goals. The game was meant to be a large sandbox for players to play in and create their own world then real time events would drive overall story and change the world in ways players obviously could not and sometimes those changes would reflect the actions of the players on the individual servers. Some events did occur for a while but EA didn't believe in that vision of the game. The game was never meant to be like WoW and that is why many of us loved it.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
You mean hardcore gaming style? i am sorry but since MMOs became mainstream its casual players who earn these companies there bread and butter. UO was never mean to be played casually. If i had no life and 12 hours a day to burn i would play games like UO.
You've obviously never played UO then. The whole point in UO was you could do whatever you wanted, some things took longer, some not so much. It's ironic that the raids in a lot of these "casual" games consume more time than any one thing in most sandbox games.
You say that the whole point of UO was that you could do whatever you wanted, but I viewed that very fact a problem. The game had no quests, no story, no true lore, and I, among others I'm sure, don't play a game to develop my own quests, story and content, it's the game developers job to create story, quests, CONTENT in general, not mine.
. In my view All UO was/is, is a game where the developers plopped down random spawning creatures/humanoids of varying difficulty to kill, and NPC's plopped down here and there for buying/selling, training skills etc, and the only quests were lame escort missions. It did have the best crafting system, just my opinion, but that wasnt' enough to keep me playing.
IMO the game was an overglorified dungeon crawler, and at that UO didn't even have the story/lore/quests/content of say a Diablo 2... Unless you RP'ed which I don't.
No quests is a bad thing?
I'll share a memory that's at least 8 years old, if not older. I was a bit of a newb, and had saved all my gold to buy a verite sword. Like a newb, I pretty much carried it everywhere with me for a short while, and then the inevitable happened, I was ganked and looted. I wrote down the looter's name on a notepad, and sat off for vengeance. I eventually found the guy fighting some monsters, he was halfway down on life, so I jumped him and got the kill. Didn't get my sword, but I got a better weapon off of him, and some nice plate armor. After that, I had an arch-nemesis for nearly a year that I always had to watch my back for, as he and his buddies would jump me on site and go out of their way to chase me around. It made gameplay much more fun, something as simple as running to my house could be a hell of a gauntlet.
But hey, I'm sure killing 10 boars would have been better, right?
With UO, building a character and getting gear was just a means to play the game. With these EQ clones, unless you're an avid PvPer, building your character IS the game, and that's why a lot of us would like to see a "new UO".
I doubt you were in beta just by a few key points of what you said. I then take the fact you say "any place with resources is camped..." and think you either didn't play at all and love to tell a tale or you were horribly dumb and mined in Brit pass thinking it was the only place to mine.
This give me things easy mentality is what caused EQ to take off. The thing is UO wasn't that hardcore, it just required you to think once in a while..."omg there is a red maybe I should walk by him"...Wrong son, hit hide, cast invis or run if you don't want to fight him. If you see a guy snooping your bags don't lawl, move away or kill him hes gonna steal from you.
I must thank you for jumping ship if you did play UO at any given time. Without you EQ players we wouldn't have WoW and all the quest/level clones we have today.
Amen brother... Pks frequented certain areas. I hated loosing my gear, then I wised up an learned how to fght back. You could run from pks even with e-bolts heading for your back.
I never felt such a heart pounding adrenaline rush from any other game. People act like there were pks everywhere too. The ratio of pk to "norm" was probably 1:25. The problem was that alot of players had the skill set to kill pks, they were just too soft and lacked the ability. There were far more Anit-pks hunting then there were pk's.
And to comment on loosing your gear. Sheesh, yes it sucked, yes I wanted to toss my monitor out the window many times, but that consequence made me work harder. Not like other games were you have your elite gear and they only way you can loose it is if you DE it.
You mean hardcore gaming style? i am sorry but since MMOs became mainstream its casual players who earn these companies there bread and butter. UO was never mean to be played casually. If i had no life and 12 hours a day to burn i would play games like UO.
You've obviously never played UO then. The whole point in UO was you could do whatever you wanted, some things took longer, some not so much. It's ironic that the raids in a lot of these "casual" games consume more time than any one thing in most sandbox games.
You say that the whole point of UO was that you could do whatever you wanted, but I viewed that very fact a problem. The game had no quests, no story, no true lore, and I, among others I'm sure, don't play a game to develop my own quests, story and content, it's the game developers job to create story, quests, CONTENT in general, not mine.
. In my view All UO was/is, is a game where the developers plopped down random spawning creatures/humanoids of varying difficulty to kill, and NPC's plopped down here and there for buying/selling, training skills etc, and the only quests were lame escort missions. It did have the best crafting system, just my opinion, but that wasnt' enough to keep me playing.
IMO the game was an overglorified dungeon crawler, and at that UO didn't even have the story/lore/quests/content of say a Diablo 2... Unless you RP'ed which I don't.
The game was meant to be a large sandbox for players to play in and create their own world then real time events would drive overall story and change the world in ways players obviously could not and sometimes those changes would reflect the actions of the players on the individual servers. Some events did occur for a while but EA didn't believe in that vision of the game. The game was never meant to be like WoW and that is why many of us loved it.
And THATS why the game was great. God forbid we play in a world that our actions reflect on the community and the game is not spoon fed to us with lore.
Some people like a "themepark" style MMO when they are hand held through out the game. Quite frankly I would like to know how many people in themepark games actually read all the quest content when recieing a new quest. I would guess that 2/3rds of the people don't.
It would be nice to have a healthy mix of both, but todats MMO gamer likes instant gratification sans consequence. That is whats wrong with society in general these days.
Marcus- wrote: "I don't doubt that people want an "easier" enviorment for there free time, and thats why WoW has 11 million uasers, and Darkfall has a whole lot less. Makes sense."
It's less about difficulty. Even WOW players want gameplay that challenges them.
It's more about accessibility, and game mechanics which encourage players to play and have fun rather than punish them harshly for failure.
Knightcry wrote: "You reported me for calling you a sheep... The reality of the situation is you engage someone in forum pvp and on a reply try to draw me out again. You state that the minority dictated how the industry went due to subscription rate which again prove you know nothing about the conversation. UO had 250k subs at the same time EQ had 300k which was huge for the day. EQ was backed by who.... a huge company with money and marketing. 50,000 people was the difference of the future of the mmo. Uo offered more than EQ and always did but due to marketing we got stuck with the current. Stay out of my thread Axehilt you aren't welcome."
I didn't report you.
And I'm a bit confused that in this chart when UO has 250k subs, EQ has ~375k subs.
Also I'm a bit confused that when I said the majority dictates where the industry goes, you claim I said the minority dictates where it goes. Please try not to put words in others' mouths, especially when you claim they're saying the exact opposite of what they actually said.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver