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game mechanics vs content

So I think I've finally come to a conclusion about MMORPGs that I'm quite happy with, it stands well on its own and applies very well to many existing games.  I think most MMORPGs are 99% content and 1% gameplay.  This is strange to me because content is time consuming to develop, and the player will only go through certain content once or twice, so most games force players to repeat content many times by having rare drops and other stuff of that nature.

I find this counter-intuitive from a game developers perspective, because if you look at a popular FPS like Left 4 Dead which came out in late 2008, you would notice that people played it for well over a year after launch with the same exact maps, the same exact content, nothing new.  Left 4 Dead was played with the same content for so long because it had compelling game mechanics.  The individual played a large part in the outcome of the game, with his ability to aim and shooting infected off his teammates, use the items he had picked up to help his team succeed, make smart decisions on whether to save a health pack or use pills, making a skillful throw with a molotov at a tank.  All of these actions allowed the player to make a significant impact on the outcome of a game.  It was the same for infected, making a high damage pounce, supporting your teammates by pulling back a survivor as they pounced 2 others, pulling a survivor off a ledge....  Again, the players played the entire role in the outcome of  the action, and it was exciting because of this, and the gameplay was definitely engaging because of the large degree of control you had over your character in the game.

I compare this to most MMORPGs I play and I see the opposite, the game focuses purely on content with a very shallow and limited amount gameplay, and I see that players are always asking for more content, they complain about grind (being forced to repeat content), but if you look at an FPS, players will gladly repeat content for years.  I compare the above to a fight in an MMORPG called Vanguard.  In Vanguard, the player clicks on a target and uses whatever skills he has available to him, from the beginning the player tends to know if he will win the fight based on how fast his health bar goes down and the other guys health bar goes down.  The player at no point has any chance to use his reflexes or his brain to change the outcome, sometimes he gets a chance to use a conditional skill (that can only be activated after blocking or a critical hit or something), but it's never a fight changing thing unless the damage the player and his opponent are dealing is very close.

So really the solution to making MMORPGs isn't to put more and more content in them, but to make the core game mechanics more interesting for the player, because this will make all existing content a lot more entertaining for most players.

 

tl;dr:

Current MMORPGs focus too much on content and give the player no chance to use his reflexes or brain to alter the outcome of a fight, thus all fights are the same and based on factors mostly outside the players control and this makes killing the same monster over and over boring, whereas an FPS allows a great deal of control to the player over his character and allow him to change the outcome of a fight based on his reflexes and brain which makes it more fun to repeat the same content over and over again.

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Comments

  • VowOfSilenceVowOfSilence Member UncommonPosts: 565

    100% agree.



    but the problem is not limited to combat, it's almost everywhere... todays mmos feature a huge world, but it's a world that's static, filled with repetitive gameplay, bad quests and storylines, etc etc

    edit: I'd love to see something entirely different - a "world" that is actually just a single town filled with zombies, a small spacestation, or something like that. Quality instead of quantity.

    Hype train -> Reality

  • ReklawReklaw Member UncommonPosts: 6,495

    We have multiplayer games for years and be played by many for years, MMORPG are very different and can not be compared to limited games like multiplayer games, I say limited cause as you say they lack content. Heck there are people still playing games like MoHAA since release, Quake 1 still being played and so on

    Overall when seeing people complain about lack of content I can not take them very serious, atleast most of the time I can not, I played many MMORPG that where filled with content, yet many ignore that cause they for some reason have this need to race to cap lvl, it's the players who are at fault here not the game, yet screamed lack of content cause the lvl'd so fast that the hit the wall at the cap lvl that even the developers where suprised at seeing peole be that cap lvl that soon, people need to understand MMORPG are very different and the most complicated genre of gaming, understanding this and knowing you do not need to race to cap lvl might give you a new perspective.

    MMORPG follow the RPG trend not so much the FPS or multiplayer trend. Gladly we have several genre of games that people can enjoy, where multiplayer games are enjoyed due to what they do best within a limited area/content, MMORPG work best cause they are filled with content that lacks in multiplayer games.

    Of couse I would like to see better type of combat in MMORPG, but we also need to look at what tech is able to handle.

    Overall I feel you have a bit of a limited view on what gameplay actualy is, pure my own opinion. To me gameplay is NOT how combat mechanics work as that like it say's a combat mechanic, that isn't gameplay, gameplay is what you can do in the game with your character this does not matter if its single player game, a multiplayer game or a MMORPG or what ever game it is. So if you want to speak about gamemechanics go ahead but game mechanics isn't  gameplay they just mechanics, sure it's a part of a game but that's it.

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230

    Yay for solid game mechanics.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • ScottcScottc Member Posts: 680


    Originally posted by Reklaw

    We have multiplayer games for years and be played by many for years, MMORPG are very different and can not be compared to limited games like multiplayer games, I say limited cause as you say they lack content. Heck there are people still playing games like MoHAA since release, Quake 1 still being played and so on


    Ultimately they are games in they end, interactive stories, and gameplay merely describes the interactive portion of it, content the story portion of it.


    Overall when seeing people complain about lack of content I can not take them very serious, atleast most of the time I can not, I played many MMORPG that where filled with content, yet many ignore that cause they for some reason have this need to race to cap lvl, it's the players who are at fault here not the game, yet screamed lack of content cause the lvl'd so fast that the hit the wall at the cap lvl that even the developers where suprised at seeing peole be that cap lvl that soon, people need to understand MMORPG are very different and the most complicated genre of gaming, understanding this and knowing you do not need to race to cap lvl might give you a new perspective.
    This thread isn't about a lack of content, it's about an over-saturation of content and a neglect for the basic game mechanics, and why grind is grind.


    MMORPG follow the RPG trend not so much the FPS or multiplayer trend. Gladly we have several genre of games that people can enjoy, where multiplayer games are enjoyed due to what they do best within a limited area/content, MMORPG work best cause they are filled with content that lacks in multiplayer games.
    RPG is not synonymous with boring game mechanics. At least in the old singleplayer RPGs like Chrono Trigger, Super Mario RPG, and all the final fantasy games you had control of many different characters with many different abilities which made the combat fun and interesting and opened many different ways to tackle a fight, and you'll see that old RPGs like Daggerfall actually have hack and slash combat anyway, as do newer ones like Morrowind and Oblivion.


    Of couse I would like to see better type of combat in MMORPG, but we also need to look at what tech is able to handle.
    Asheron's Call developed in 1995 released in 1999 allowed you to dodge spells and arrows, Darkfall Online out now has full hack and slash combat, Mortal Online also has combat where you need to aim, so does Mabinogi Heroes. We definitely have the tech and have had it for a long time.


    Overall I feel you have a bit of a limited view on what gameplay actualy is, pure my own opinion. To me gameplay is NOT how combat mechanics work as that like it say's a combat mechanic, that isn't gameplay, gameplay is what you can do in the game with your character this does not matter if its single player game, a multiplayer game or a MMORPG or what ever game it is. So if you want to speak about gamemechanics go ahead but game mechanics isn't  gameplay they just mechanics, sure it's a part of a game but that's it.
    I've been gaming since the dawn of 3D gaming and well before that, I've designed and written games as well, I think I know what gameplay and game mechanics are.
  • LexiscatLexiscat Member Posts: 204

    I agree with your views about Mechanics.

    I also think a Developer can be judged by the quality and depth of their content.

    Content is where you separate the lazy from the hardworking. Some claim it comes down to budget, but games like EQ1, AC, and UO debunk that argument. 

    Strong mechanics,  depth, and quality content is the winning formula in my opinion.

    “Nothing excites jaded Grandmasters more than a theoretical novelty”

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member LegendaryPosts: 12,198

     Well, I agree with the OP... good game mechanics outshine content any day.  Mount & Blade is a very good example of that.  The graphics aren't great, the "quests" are repetitive and the loot is abysmal at best.  The game mechanics are unlike most games we've seen though, and it makes the game extremely fun regardless of the repeated content.

     

    I'm not saying that all games should be like M&B, but I am saying that a good core mechanic is worth twice the content, hands down.  Content now is based more on the quests that you do, and most quests have no life, they serve no purpose... they are basically a means to an end.  Thats why one game rises to the top, and the rest feel soulless and boring.  Its like each MMO now is a puzzle, but most developers feel its easiest to make the puzzle 4 pieces and change the picture with each new incarnation. 

    I do see some games trying... CO changed up their combat mechanic with a change in the Endurance building, which I thought was absolutely terrible in every way... so as far as I'm concerned that was broken... and still is to an extent.  Vanguard changed crafting mechanics which I found incredibly ambitious and also engrossing.  Perhaps I'm missing a good portion of what this thread is on about... maybe not.... but even still, I'm glad to see an understanding that the genre has its priorities a little off.

     



  • VexeVexe Member Posts: 549

     I think gameplay is very very very important and it can certainly exist by itself. Same goes for content. I can play Peggle for forever and a half which is mostly gameplay and not as much progression. I can also play torchlight for forever, which is mostly progression (fun progression, mind you) and not much more (gameplay wise) than clicking places on the screen and pushing one button at a time. I think that MMOs like age of conan with button combos to do certain skills and different directional attacks are bordering on coexisting the two. In this sense I would disagree in that games are not being innovative. At least not in the world market. Games like Daconica Online are looking to change that a bit where timing and certain button combinations create bigger moves and even go into other combinations.

     

    But that doesn't mean, as I said before, that's it's all about combining gameplay and content.

     

    The problem is that there's only so much you can do with gameplay in a third person open world environment. That's the problem. We need new...well...everything.

  • robert4818robert4818 Member UncommonPosts: 661

     I think it needs to be about 50/50.  

    I've played Champions and found the mechanics to be great and fun (for an MMO) but the content was lacking.

    On the other hand I've played games where the content was great, but the mechanics were so shallow that I stopped playing as well.

    If you have too much of one, and not enough of the other, you'll lose subscriptions period.

    So long, and thanks for all the fish!

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Member Posts: 14,495

    If you're saying the MMORPG needs FPS combat, then it would not be an MMORPG any more. It would be an FPS.

    If you like the FPS better, play an FPS.

    If you're not saying that, then what sort of game mechanics would you like to see in a new COMPUTER ROLE PLAYING GAME that is not a FPS?

    image

  • ScottcScottc Member Posts: 680
    Originally posted by Ihmotepp


    If you're saying the MMORPG needs FPS combat, then it would not be an MMORPG any more. It would be an FPS.
    If you like the FPS better, play an FPS.
    If you're not saying that, then what sort of game mechanics would you like to see in a new COMPUTER ROLE PLAYING GAME that is not a FPS?

    I didn't think anyone was this moronic.  I'm saying the combat systems need to be more involved.  For example, in Asheron's Call you did not have to aim your spells or arrows, but you could still dodge spells and arrows by moving yourself out of the way and you had to manage your health, stamina, and mana through potions, healing kits, and magic.  Also by your line of thinking, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, every Gothic series game, Hellgate London, Fallout 3, and a number of other games that sell themselves as RPGs are not really RPGs.  What makes an RPG an RPG is the persistant world that your actions have an effect on, as well as some sort of character progression.

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Member Posts: 14,495
    Originally posted by Scottc

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp


    If you're saying the MMORPG needs FPS combat, then it would not be an MMORPG any more. It would be an FPS.
    If you like the FPS better, play an FPS.
    If you're not saying that, then what sort of game mechanics would you like to see in a new COMPUTER ROLE PLAYING GAME that is not a FPS?

    I didn't think anyone was this moronic.  I'm saying the combat systems need to be more involved.  For example, in Asheron's Call you did not have to aim your spells or arrows, but you could still dodge spells and arrows by moving yourself out of the way and you had to manage your health, stamina, and mana through potions, healing kits, and magic.  Also by your line of thinking, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, every Gothic series game, Hellgate London, Fallout 3, and a number of other games that sell themselves as RPGs are not really RPGs.  What makes an RPG an RPG is the persistant world that your actions have an effect on, as well as some sort of character progression.

    You may certainly post any definition from any source you wish that contradicts this:

     

     

    A computer role-playing game (CRPG[1]) is a broad video game genre originally developed for personal computers and other home computers. While technically not a separate genre, and sharing the same defining characteristics as console RPGs (also confusingly referred to as CRPGs) there are nonetheless general tendencies that make them distinct from RPGs on other platforms. (See Cultural differences in role-playing video games.) The earliest CRPGs were inspired by early role-playing games, particularly Dungeons & Dragons, and attempted to provide a similar play experience.

    Despite a spectrum of features and game styles, there are some elements common to the CRPG genre. Perhaps the most salient is that of the avatar, with its quantized characteristics that typically evolve over the course of the game, and take the place of the gamer's own skill in determining game outcomes. Another common element in CRPGs is a well-developed fictional setting.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_role-playing_game

     

    But yes, a "computer roleplaying game" and "rpg" that is not a table top game is defined by character progression, not player skill.

    Again, if you want an MMOFPS, play one. Those are good games too. However, they are not MMORPGs.

    When character progression trumps, it's an RPG. When player skill trumps it's an FPS (assuming it's not a puzzle game like Puzzle Pirates or something of that nature).

     

     

    image

  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,249

    I do agree that game play needs to exceed over the standard. Before, gameplay consisted of auto attack and spell cast times. And now it seems that game mechanics, especially game play are taking more of a combo route.

    Game mechanics can mean all sort of things. Remember guys, rpg's are more of the story and how to progress your character rather than action. The only difference is, that mmo's are played online verses single player. But I would love to see combat more challenging rather then a rock paper scissors effect. I like to see more options with different variables. However, to still stay true to the rpg element.

    I would love to see the skill mechanics used in DnD with a more of an in-depth combo combat system.

    But really, what needs to happen is a good balance of content and game mechanics to come full blossom in one singular game.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504

    Well it's mostly that MMORPGs need more dynamic combat.

    FPS-aiming automatically brings with it a ton of dynamicism because you can aim at any point in a million directions.

    With a lock-target system your options are extremely constrained in comparison.

    MMORPG-style combat needs to add dynamicism.  An example ability might be:

    1. Imagine Champions Online's charge system -- you hold down the button to use this ability and a progress bar fills up towards the end. Release to fire.
    2. The more you charge, the more damage the ability will do (1%-100% correspond to 1-99 on the charge bar.)
    3. However if you max out the bar, you overload and deal backfire damage to yourself.
    4. Each time you use the ability, a stackable buff accumulates which increases the ability's damage 5% and the rate that the meter charges by 10%.
    5. Each stack of the buff independantly tracks a 10sec duration, so you end up losing the stacks at a fairly constant rate eventually.

    So basically you have a system where the margin for error shrinks smaller and smaller as you repetitively use this ability -- creating a big difference between the skilled and unskilled player.  It's a nice self-difficulty-adjusting system too, because you can try to maintain the exact number of stacks of the buff that you want (by firing the ability more or less frequently).  This lets you control the difficulty of timing involved.

    Obviously with more than the 5 mins of thought I've put into this idea you can create an even better ability.  But the point is this is an ability with a lot more variation to its effects based on your precise inputs (much like your performance in FPS-aiming games gives you a constant stream of thousands/millions of angles to fire your weapon.)

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • ScottcScottc Member Posts: 680
    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    Originally posted by Scottc

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp


    If you're saying the MMORPG needs FPS combat, then it would not be an MMORPG any more. It would be an FPS.
    If you like the FPS better, play an FPS.
    If you're not saying that, then what sort of game mechanics would you like to see in a new COMPUTER ROLE PLAYING GAME that is not a FPS?

    I didn't think anyone was this moronic.  I'm saying the combat systems need to be more involved.  For example, in Asheron's Call you did not have to aim your spells or arrows, but you could still dodge spells and arrows by moving yourself out of the way and you had to manage your health, stamina, and mana through potions, healing kits, and magic.  Also by your line of thinking, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, every Gothic series game, Hellgate London, Fallout 3, and a number of other games that sell themselves as RPGs are not really RPGs.  What makes an RPG an RPG is the persistant world that your actions have an effect on, as well as some sort of character progression.

    You may certainly post any definition from any source you wish that contradicts this:

     

     

    A computer role-playing game (CRPG[1]) is a broad video game genre originally developed for personal computers and other home computers. While technically not a separate genre, and sharing the same defining characteristics as console RPGs (also confusingly referred to as CRPGs) there are nonetheless general tendencies that make them distinct from RPGs on other platforms. (See Cultural differences in role-playing video games.) The earliest CRPGs were inspired by early role-playing games, particularly Dungeons & Dragons, and attempted to provide a similar play experience.

    Despite a spectrum of features and game styles, there are some elements common to the CRPG genre. Perhaps the most salient is that of the avatar, with its quantized characteristics that typically evolve over the course of the game, and take the place of the gamer's own skill in determining game outcomes. Another common element in CRPGs is a well-developed fictional setting.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_role-playing_game

     

    But yes, a "computer roleplaying game" and "rpg" that is not a table top game is defined by character progression, not player skill.

    Again, if you want an MMOFPS, play one. Those are good games too. However, they are not MMORPGs.

    When character progression trumps, it's an RPG. When player skill trumps it's an FPS (assuming it's not a puzzle game like Puzzle Pirates or something of that nature).

     

     

    You're arguing semantics and trying to compare computer RPGs to tabletop ones.  Consider that the old games didn't even have the capability to allow you to aim manually, they could only represent simplistic tile based worlds, it was a limitation of technology, and now that those limitations have been removed, it's time for the game mechanics to evolve.

    I'll leave it at this: As long as gameplay remains simplistic, the games you play will continue to be a grind.  Unless the simplistic game mechanics gain some depth and more ability for the player to control the game, the genre will die out.  By the way, there's a reason professors don't allow wikipedia as a source.

    Also, there's no way you're not a troll.

  • Thomas_BenkoThomas_Benko Member Posts: 6

    You are wrong Ihmotepp, an MMORPG that possesses limited FPS elements is still an MMORPG.  

    A third person view MMORPG that allows one to dodge incoming spells and arrows; requires that you AIM at your opponent and consider trajectory of arrows when you shoot them at people; and requires that you possess superior twitch skills and/or intelligence in order to be victorious in battle would not be considered an MMOFPS, it would be considered an MMORPG.

    Lets take World of Warcraft for example; Completely altar the game mechanics so it actually takes skill and brains to play the game, you have to aim your spells and arrows at people in order to hit them. You have to block attacks quickly, dodge attacks, spells, melee and arrows in order to survive in combat.  Are you saying it is an MMOFPS now?

     

    If you can't understand, I'm gonna laugh.

  • uquipuuquipu Member Posts: 1,516

     Combat mechanics is what got WoW it's 11 million subs.

    Combat is the most fun part of the game so the WoW devs spent the most time on it.

    Time and time again when people return to WoW after trying other games, they'll cite they missed WoW's complex and fluid combat mechanics.

     

    Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren

  • ScottcScottc Member Posts: 680
    Originally posted by uquipu


     Combat mechanics is what got WoW it's 11 million subs.
    Combat is the most fun part of the game so the WoW devs spent the most time on it.
    Time and time again when people return to WoW after trying other games, they'll cite they missed WoW's complex and fluid combat mechanics.
     

    is this a joke

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Scottc

    Originally posted by uquipu


     Combat mechanics is what got WoW it's 11 million subs.
    Combat is the most fun part of the game so the WoW devs spent the most time on it.
    Time and time again when people return to WoW after trying other games, they'll cite they missed WoW's complex and fluid combat mechanics.
     

    is this a joke



     

    I recently resubbed WOW, and that's similar to how I feel.  I was about to bring it up in my post.  It's not as dynamic as FPS-aiming systems, but WOW's combat is the reason I've stuck with it much longer than other MMORPGs.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Member Posts: 14,495
    Originally posted by Thomas_Benko


    You are wrong Ihmotepp, an MMORPG that possesses limited FPS elements is still an MMORPG.  
    A third person view MMORPG that allows one to dodge incoming spells and arrows; requires that you AIM at your opponent and consider trajectory of arrows when you shoot them at people; and requires that you possess superior twitch skills and/or intelligence in order to be victorious in battle would not be considered an MMOFPS, it would be considered an MMORPG.
    Lets take World of Warcraft for example; Completely altar the game mechanics so it actually takes skill and brains to play the game, you have to aim your spells and arrows at people in order to hit them. You have to block attacks quickly, dodge attacks, spells, melee and arrows in order to survive in combat.  Are you saying it is an MMOFPS now?
     
    If you can't understand, I'm gonna laugh.

     Twitch skills do not equal brains. you can be practically retarded and have great twitch skills. If you're going to talk about "using brains" that would be a puzzle game or something that requires real time strategy decisions, although those become formulaic after a while, you just need to memorize the routines.

    I like first person shooters. I've thoroughly enjoyed Borderlands. I really liked Call of Duty, and played a fair bit of Modern Warfare, but haven't played MW2.

    I also like Role Playing Games. I don't need any First Person Shooter combat in my role playing games. I like BOTH types  of games.

    If you get rid of RPGs, and make them all FPS game,s then you have less types of games to play.

    I prefer variety.

    I enjoy MMORPGs exaclty the way they are with RPG combat. I don't need them to be massive FIRST PERSON SHOOTERS.

    In fact, I think the FPS works better if it is not massive.

    I don't see what being "massive" really ads to the FPS at all.

    If you level up, or skill up, you should be able to beat lesser opponents. That's a role playing game.

    If you can use your l33t aiming skills to beat someone regardless of their level or skill levels, that a First Person Shooter.

    You get levels in some first person shooters, You unlock weapons, gain ranks, etc. But it really doesn't do jack, the better person with the mouse nad keyboard will still win.

     

     

    image

  • ReklawReklaw Member UncommonPosts: 6,495
    Originally posted by Scottc


     

    Originally posted by Reklaw
     
    We have multiplayer games for years and be played by many for years, MMORPG are very different and can not be compared to limited games like multiplayer games, I say limited cause as you say they lack content. Heck there are people still playing games like MoHAA since release, Quake 1 still being played and so on

     
    Ultimately they are games in they end, interactive stories, and gameplay merely describes the interactive portion of it, content the story portion of it.

     

    Why is content story to you? to me content is allot more, content is what you interact with, sure it story is just part of it but content is so much more, not only do I feel you have a limited view on gameplay but so do you seem to have a limited view on content, content can be: story, interaction with the game world, this can be scavaging, harvesting, finding, dicovering new places, in short  content is what makes player interact with the gameworld in many many way's.


    Overall when seeing people complain about lack of content I can not take them very serious, atleast most of the time I can not, I played many MMORPG that where filled with content, yet many ignore that cause they for some reason have this need to race to cap lvl, it's the players who are at fault here not the game, yet screamed lack of content cause the lvl'd so fast that the hit the wall at the cap lvl that even the developers where suprised at seeing peole be that cap lvl that soon, people need to understand MMORPG are very different and the most complicated genre of gaming, understanding this and knowing you do not need to race to cap lvl might give you a new perspective.
    This thread isn't about a lack of content, it's about an over-saturation of content and a neglect for the basic game mechanics, and why grind is grind.
    I was merly commenting on what YOU said in you OP about people complaining about it, should have been clear. 
     
     

    MMORPG follow the RPG trend not so much the FPS or multiplayer trend. Gladly we have several genre of games that people can enjoy, where multiplayer games are enjoyed due to what they do best within a limited area/content, MMORPG work best cause they are filled with content that lacks in multiplayer games.
    RPG is not synonymous with boring game mechanics. At least in the old singleplayer RPGs like Chrono Trigger, Super Mario RPG, and all the final fantasy games you had control of many different characters with many different abilities which made the combat fun and interesting and opened many different ways to tackle a fight, and you'll see that old RPGs like Daggerfall actually have hack and slash combat anyway, as do newer ones like Morrowind and Oblivion.
    Never said RPG is synonemous with boring gamemechanics. Also singleplayer RPG's do well due to them being................singleplayer games, they don't need to account for thousands if not million of players playing similtaniously. 
     
     

    Of couse I would like to see better type of combat in MMORPG, but we also need to look at what tech is able to handle.
    Asheron's Call developed in 1995 released in 1999 allowed you to dodge spells and arrows, Darkfall Online out now has full hack and slash combat, Mortal Online also has combat where you need to aim, so does Mabinogi Heroes. We definitely have the tech and have had it for a long time.
    Playing Fallen Earth myself it's a hugh improvement compared the current crop of MMORPG in terms of combat where you actualy need to focus on what you are doing instead hte simple button smash, still could be better, yes Darkfall might have it even better in some way's can't really say since I never played it. 
     
     

    Overall I feel you have a bit of a limited view on what gameplay actualy is, pure my own opinion. To me gameplay is NOT how combat mechanics work as that like it say's a combat mechanic, that isn't gameplay, gameplay is what you can do in the game with your character this does not matter if its single player game, a multiplayer game or a MMORPG or what ever game it is. So if you want to speak about gamemechanics go ahead but game mechanics isn't  gameplay they just mechanics, sure it's a part of a game but that's it.
    I've been gaming since the dawn of 3D gaming and well before that, I've designed and written games as well, I think I know what gameplay and game mechanics are.

    In the end I stil agree that gameplay mechanics can improve allot more in this genre, but I am fully aware of tech limitation, sure some games often indie developers/company's will do things different/better then these A-Title game but often at a cost, but that is pure due to the fact these A-title company's go for the shinny graphics something the mass populating seems to want and less on gameplay, so like I said I agree with things need to change for MMORPG to have more appeal to those of us who want more then shinny grpahics, I just disagree on you what you consider content, and yes I am playing games since pong, and also the fact grind is a playstyle a person has, so you saying grind is grind tells more about someone playstyle then it does about the game.



     

     

  • Kes0Kes0 Member Posts: 23

    I also think that RPG is about contents, and FPS is about mechanics. Adding FPS to RPG can really ruin the game. How would you do any quest if you are constantly sniped at? Character stats would become meaningless. I think FPS killing fest is fun not because of the mechanics, but because of strategic elements, competitions and accomplishments. Take any sport game or racing game, it is the same thing. A basketball game that requires you to shoot 100 free throws to level up is a grind. Killing monster is a grind because it has no consequence other than exp. Suppose that the monsters have limited number or are controlling certain strategic base or area. Then, such repetition becomes very interesting indeed.

  • rscott6666rscott6666 Member Posts: 192

    Imhotep is correct, the more FPS you get, the less RPG you get.  They are polar opposites.  A 100% rpg game won't use any twitch or brain power of the person to determine if a skill use is successful.  A %100 fps will only use the human to know if a skill is successful.  You can use a bit of both, say like Deus Ex, but thats more like a 50% rpg/50% fps hybrid.  Not fully fps and not fully rpg.

    In any event, in FPS like quake or LFD, the other players ARE the content.  You could play the same map and as long as the players changed somewhat people would be happy.

    In RPG games, the content is the world.  Thats why some people will not play SciFi MMORPGs no matter what, or they won't play fantasy mmorpgs no matter what the rules are.  Because its the game world that matters most.  Its where they want to be.

    Yeah, content is expensive.  And players run through it quickly.  Thats why we have 10-20 game companies all coming out with new content.  We finish one game, we hop to the other, tadaaa, instant new content.  New expansion, hop on back.  If there was only one game company, we'd be in trouble.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504

    rscott if they were polar opposites you wouldn't see a market inundated with hybrid FPS/RPG games.

    There are tons of FPS/RPG hybrids out there nowadays, running from both ends of the spectrum from MW2 (which has very light progression elements) to Darkfall (where progression elements dictate victory.)  I assume Tabula Rasa fell somewhere near the Darkfall end too.

    It's true that there are bad places along the spectrum (I think even Darkfall slips up by having progression be too important for a game with FPS aiming.)  And you're always going to disappoint someone of course: RPG 'purists' will be disappointed by any twitch skill being rewarded/encouraged, and FPS purists will be disappointed if progression has any significant role in winning.  But that doesn't mean there isn't a huge market for games like Oblivion, Fallout 3, Mass Effect, and so on.

    I think it's probably a matter of making it clear how much influence each factor (progression, twitch skill, and others) have on winning.  When this is unclear to players, and they lose unexpectedly, they tend to be frustrated by the game.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • rscott6666rscott6666 Member Posts: 192
    Originally posted by Axehilt


    rscott if they were polar opposites you wouldn't see a market inundated with hybrid FPS/RPG games.


    Thats like saying if white and black were polar opposites, you wouldn't see a marked inundated with games that use gray.

  • vladakovvladakov Member Posts: 710
    Originally posted by VowOfSilence


    100% agree.



    but the problem is not limited to combat, it's almost everywhere... todays mmos feature a huge world, but it's a world that's static, filled with repetitive gameplay, bad quests and storylines, etc etc
    edit: I'd love to see something entirely different - a "world" that is actually just a single town filled with zombies, a small spacestation, or something like that. Quality instead of quantity.

    aye, a town, filled with people, meaningfull quests, hm, hey i hear a bell ringing! Oh ITS ALL POINTS BULLETIN ! :P

    image

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