So, will 2010 be the year?

Kyleran

Yeah, we've heard the hype, CoS will be different than anything we've ever experienced, that the graphics won't be developed until the game play is fleshed out, but the question is, at some point during the year will we get a chance to actually see any of this stuff in action (even in screen shots or videos) or will it be another year everything being conceptual?

I know its hard to predict a game's release date, but what are the dev's shooting for in this game?  Looks like about 2013 or so from the speed they are going at, and if the project is as ambitious as it sounds (and being developed by as small a team as they say) its not impossible to imagine them exceeding Darkfall's development time (about 8 years by most estimates)

 

Jatar

We make no promises, and never will no matter how many people cry for us to tell them what cannot be told.  We really don't care how long it takes to make this game right.  When players are paying for the development of the game, then they can start complaining about how long it takes (or to say it better, then we will start caring about their complaints.)  It's like players think they have some right to force a developer to make a game faster, and some right to complain that it takes however long it takes.  

If we were to tell you a release date and then not deliver it, well, then perhaps you could complain some (though it should be very little).  The making of a game is not an exact science, no matter what players may think.  They want cutting edge advancement, but don't have any real concept of what it means to develop such a game.  I've had to deal with this on every project I've personally worked on in the past eighteen years that I've been working at various game companies.

I understand your desire to play the game.  But, what would you rather have, a game that is not finished, boring and buggy, or a game that takes as long as it takes to make it right?   Regardless of your answer, we will take as long as it takes to make Citadel of Sorcery, not one day more, and not one day less.  We have NO internal date as to when it will be finished, and it will absolutely NOT be in 2010.  Like a good wine, it will be ready when the time is right.

 

Kyleran

Hmm, I rather think the funding isn't unlimited, those paying the bills had to be told some sort of time table, so they could plan for a return on their investment. But stick to your story, doesn't matter either way.

But I agree, no game should be released before its time, and I wasn't suggesting that it would be this year or any time soon.

I was just looking for something more concrete about the actual game than jsut words, which is all we've really seen so far. 

Do players have any rights in game development? No, of course not, but hey, you choose to come here and converse about the subject, don't be so surprised and indignant when someone says, "show me your power"

Doesn't sound like there will be much to show for this year's development, maybe in 2011. 

(but hey, Blizzard hasn't shown anyone details on their new MMO, not even its name, so you're way ahead of them in that regard)

 

 

Loktofeit

Originally posted by Jatar


  I've had to deal with this on every project I've personally worked on in the past eighteen years that I've been working at various game companies.

What were some of the other games you worked on?

 

Jatar

Originally posted by Kyleran


Hmm, I rather think the funding isn't unlimited, those paying the bills had to be told some sort of time table, so they could plan for a return on their investment. But stick to your story, doesn't matter either way.
But I agree, no game should be released before its time, and I wasn't suggesting that it would be this year or any time soon.
I was just looking for something more concrete about the actual game than jsut words, which is all we've really seen so far. 
Do players have any rights in game development? No, of course not, but hey, you choose to come here and converse about the subject, don't be so surprised and indignant when someone says, "show me your power"
Doesn't sound like there will be much to show for this year's development, maybe in 2011. 
(but hey, Blizzard hasn't shown anyone details on their new MMO, not even its name, so you're way ahead of them in that regard)
 
 

 

Sorry if I came off too indignant   It's just that sometimes when you are on a long project (like this one) constant questions of when it will get done do get old.  We receive this question in email practically every day.  As for not having unlimited funding, you are correct, no game has that.  In our case the game is self funded.  This is good and bad.  We have no outside force banging on our door and demanding milestones.  But on the flip side, each day that passes is more money we spend.  This cannot be helped.  CoS is a somewhat radical change in games, and as such, a bit risky for a typical publisher.  It will be much less risky when it is far enough along to actually play, and the technology and game play can be shown rather than described.  Much like you (being many people) are skeptical until you see it, so are publishers.  So we are shouldering the financial burden and risks internally.   Does then mean we need to get it done as quickly as possible?  You're darn tootin.  But... it is just as important that it is really good, otherwise we will not be able to attract that publisher we will eventually need.

Now, as to what there will be to show this year, can't say for sure, but don't count it out.  There was major advancement this past year in the tools we need to construct the game play and add the A.I. to NPCs.  This is a major part of the development of this game, and part of what was missing in other engines we might have licensed.  This game requires tools far beyond what I have worked with in the past at other game companies, otherwise there is no way to create the ever changing world without an army of Level Builders.  This is what we have been doing in 2009, making  a program we call Enact.  This is a suite of tools for making the game play, quests, adventures, NPC lives, changes to the world as time moves, on, etc.  But this is not a visual thing, as it is the mechanics of controlling the world, not making a pretty tree or house.

Now that a good portion of Enact is functional, we will be spending a lot of this year using that tool and building the world.  There are several additional pieces of the technical puzzle still to come this year, and so I'm not going to try to predict what we will show and what we won't.  In that direction lies madness, for if we promise things and by some chance don't deliver... well, if I was touchy about you asking when we will finish, imagine how annoyed I would be by the legitimate mountain of complaints we would get for making promises we don't deliver.  Trust me, we're better off taking the right amount of time, however long that is, than making false promises.

It is our intention, and has been all along, to tell the player community what we can about the development of the game.  We're not making a standard and typical game here, nor are we developing this one in the ways in which I have worked on other game projects in the past.  Likewise, we are letting players know more about the development and the game earlier than I normally have done.  This is by choice, and we have to take the good with the bad in making that choice.  But, we will continue to try to keep people informed as to the truth of things that we can and want to release, and answer as many questions as possible honestly.  When it comes to answering when we will finish, we couldn't honestly say, so we just won't answer that at this time.  I hope you understand.

Margulis

Originally posted by Jatar


We make no promises, and never will no matter how many people cry for us to tell them what cannot be told.  We really don't care how long it takes to make this game right.  When players are paying for the development of the game, then they can start complaining about how long it takes (or to say it better, then we will start caring about their complaints.)  It's like players think they have some right to force a developer to make a game faster, and some right to complain that it takes however long it takes.  
If we were to tell you a release date and then not deliver it, well, then perhaps you could complain some (though it should be very little).  The making of a game is not an exact science, no matter what players may think.  They want cutting edge advancement, but don't have any real concept of what it means to develop such a game.  I've had to deal with this on every project I've personally worked on in the past eighteen years that I've been working at various game companies.
I understand your desire to play the game.  But, what would you rather have, a game that is not finished, boring and buggy, or a game that takes as long as it takes to make it right?   Regardless of your answer, we will take as long as it takes to make Citadel of Sorcery, not one day more, and not one day less.  We have NO internal date as to when it will be finished, and it will absolutely NOT be in 2010.  Like a good wine, it will be ready when the time is right.
 

 

Wow, this is the first thread I've read for this game and to see a developer of the game post with this sort of attitude makes me immediately lose any interest I may have had in it. 

tehikk

Originally posted by Margulis

Originally posted by Jatar


We make no promises, and never will no matter how many people cry for us to tell them what cannot be told.  We really don't care how long it takes to make this game right.  When players are paying for the development of the game, then they can start complaining about how long it takes (or to say it better, then we will start caring about their complaints.)  It's like players think they have some right to force a developer to make a game faster, and some right to complain that it takes however long it takes.  
If we were to tell you a release date and then not deliver it, well, then perhaps you could complain some (though it should be very little).  The making of a game is not an exact science, no matter what players may think.  They want cutting edge advancement, but don't have any real concept of what it means to develop such a game.  I've had to deal with this on every project I've personally worked on in the past eighteen years that I've been working at various game companies.
I understand your desire to play the game.  But, what would you rather have, a game that is not finished, boring and buggy, or a game that takes as long as it takes to make it right?   Regardless of your answer, we will take as long as it takes to make Citadel of Sorcery, not one day more, and not one day less.  We have NO internal date as to when it will be finished, and it will absolutely NOT be in 2010.  Like a good wine, it will be ready when the time is right.
 

 

Wow, this is the first thread I've read for this game and to see a developer of the game post with this sort of attitude makes me immediately lose any interest I may have had in it. 

 

Why?

Because he told you the truth, because he told you that a good game with a long development time is better than a bad game with a short development time?

Please, shut up and go crawl back in your tiny hole...

Jatar

Everyone needs to take a step back and calm down.  As I stated in my second post of this discussion, I was a bit indignant in my reply.  That was mostly because game companies are bombarded with people complaining about the length of time they take to develop a game when those poor developers are busy slaving away to try to bring those same people something special.

I just wanted players to understand that you can't hurry the development of a game.  Not if you want it to be good.   It was not my intention to piss anyone off, nor to start any kind of shouting war of words.

We're just trying to make a game here for all of you to play, even though that may take us a long time and a lot of sleepless nights.  Maybe we could just get the discussion back about the game rather than my or your complaints.  I'm willing if you are.

 

Tanque

So...

A Gargoyle,a Jenomo and a Verduren walked into a bar...

Jatar

We should talk more about what is coming in 2010.  It should be an exciting year in the development of this game.  It has been a long road to create the kind of technology we needed to make this world possible, and although that work continues, much of the engine is there for the artists, writers and builders to construct much more of the game world. 

As portions of the world and gameplay take further shape, we will continue to share as much as possible with you players.  And though the game won't be finished this year, it will likely reach some pretty important milestones.  At those times we will try to give you a glimpse of those new areas and features.  

Meanwhile, we will try to keep answering questions when possible, and we continue to value the opinions and suggestions by the game community.

Isane

Originally posted by Margulis

 

Wow, this is the first thread I've read for this game and to see a developer of the game post with this sort of attitude makes me immediately lose any interest I may have had in it. 

 

The truth hurts, Jatar speaks with a real sense of reality. Have a think about what the OP who posted was trying to do.

The developer response will in a lot of peoples cases make those of us who have bothered to read up on the game appreciate what the COS team are trying to do.

Do you even know what stage of development this game is at ? I guess not.