cryptic needs to change their strategy

sonoggi

so these guys have been rolling out game after game based on the same old CoH formula. this formula works for CoH, but there's a reason why it was a small MMO. people need more than repetitive combat. STO had a fantastic opportunity to become a deeper game like EVE online, but it seems like an arcade game so far. these guys are seriously gonna crash and burn unless they adapt to the market.

championsFan

Originally posted by sonoggi


so these guys have been rolling out game after game based on the same old CoH formula. this formula works for CoH, but there's a reason why it was a small MMO. people need more than repetitive combat. STO had a fantastic opportunity to become a deeper game like EVE online, but it seems like an arcade game so far. these guys are seriously gonna crash and burn unless they adapt to the market.

Yeah, they do need to change their strategy.   They too much focus on quantity over quality development, because this worked for them in CoH.   "Let's just get these features/games out and worry about polish later."

 

Another thing they need to do is improve marketing and PR.  The CO launch period was heavily dampered by a few debacles (they waffled on offering lifetime subs, and especially the launch day patch; I'm not saying these weren't bad, just that a better PR department would not have let things get so out of hand).  Let's see what happens with STO.

They also need better production value.  The art assets are pretty good, but STO (and CO from most people's point of view) is like a movie with bad directing: low impact storytelling, low immersion. 

sage69

jack emmert strikes again. hopefully this will bankrupt cryptic and we will see the end of recycling COH.

apocalance

I don't know if the development cycle is flawed or the process is too expensive and needs to be checked, but I agree. MMO's being released before they're ready is pretty common. Perhaps developer should be paid minimal salaries and then get percentages of the profits once the game is in production? I don't have the solution, but it is too common and it has killed MMO's in the past. I can't see why this isn't more obviously looked at by development companies? Are the box sales that good that it's more important to ship with nice screenshots than it is to retain customers?

nariusseldon

Originally posted by sonoggi


so these guys have been rolling out game after game based on the same old CoH formula. this formula works for CoH, but there's a reason why it was a small MMO. people need more than repetitive combat. STO had a fantastic opportunity to become a deeper game like EVE online, but it seems like an arcade game so far. these guys are seriously gonna crash and burn unless they adapt to the market.

 

That is NOT true. 11M players LOVE repetitive combat and we haven't added in the Diablo fans, the Borderlands fans and so on.

The real question is whether Cryptic can make repetitive combat fun and the jury is still out for that.

 

DarLorkar

Originally posted by apocalance


I don't know if the development cycle is flawed or the process is too expensive and needs to be checked, but I agree. MMO's being released before they're ready is pretty common. Perhaps developer should be paid minimal salaries and then get percentages of the profits once the game is in production? I don't have the solution, but it is too common and it has killed MMO's in the past. I can't see why this isn't more obviously looked at by development companies? Are the box sales that good that it's more important to ship with nice screenshots than it is to retain customers?

 

It is not the developers. The publishing companies control the purse strings, time lines, and hype, PR.

The heads of the development companies ( the ones you see go from company to company) make the publishers cash.

Cash is all the pub companies care about.  So producers that make good cash at release with good box sales are the ones that get the funding. Quality of the games matters not at all to people that make money on box sales. Long as their returns on investments continue, we will see nothing change.

The whole system is setup to pump out to horribly over hyped games to make a quick killing on box sales and move on to the next one to do it all over again.

The gamers (us, you me and other that buy games) are just a huge group of sheep to be fleeced along the way.:)

Nothing will change until we, the gamers change it.  If you want a game for gamers, then you need to keep the people that just care about making the most money out of it.

We need to take control of how, and on who we spend our gaming money.

How about instead of us gamers just taking what ever we are fed out of this system, we change it? Instead of spending 50-100 or more on crap games we put that into a fund. We all get together and fund a game with the developers we like?

300,000 gamers just putting 50 bucks each into a fund would raise 15 million bucks. How many of us pay 50 bucks or more several times a year looking for a good MMO? How about we get to pick the people that make games for us, and how and when it gets released?

Only thing for sure, is as long as we let others continue to milk us, they will. We need to change the system.

 

apocalance

I agree, we need to stop accepting it.

nariusseldon

Originally posted by sonoggi


so these guys have been rolling out game after game based on the same old CoH formula. this formula works for CoH, but there's a reason why it was a small MMO. people need more than repetitive combat. STO had a fantastic opportunity to become a deeper game like EVE online, but it seems like an arcade game so far. these guys are seriously gonna crash and burn unless they adapt to the market.

 

Wait, you said they should have a strategy to go after a market with 300k players, instead of one with 11M players? This business logic escapes me. Let's spend more money chasing after the smaller market. I am sure that will fly really well with the investors.

Thillian

Originally posted by sonoggi


so these guys have been rolling out game after game based on the same old CoH formula. this formula works for CoH, but there's a reason why it was a small MMO. people need more than repetitive combat. STO had a fantastic opportunity to become a deeper game like EVE online, but it seems like an arcade game so far. these guys are seriously gonna crash and burn unless they adapt to the market.

 

They gonna release, make it appealing first weeks, offer lifetime for 200$, and abandon it right after with a small dev team, like it happened to all games before with lifetime sub-model.

nikoliath

 watching some klingon faction clips on youtube a moment ago I noticed that the player ship overview ui is the same as the federation one, a constitution class overview and the computer voice for the klingons is that of the federation. Small things like this scream of cut'n'paste production values. Could they have rushed this game any more?

 

One of the important factors in fiction is the suspension of disbelief, which fails here. Attention to detail is important. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhRdnVX3ENQ

Sovrath

Originally posted by sonoggi


so these guys have been rolling out game after game based on the same old CoH formula. this formula works for CoH, but there's a reason why it was a small MMO. people need more than repetitive combat. STO had a fantastic opportunity to become a deeper game like EVE online, but it seems like an arcade game so far. these guys are seriously gonna crash and burn unless they adapt to the market.

 

I think the average person prefers more of an arcade game than one that has the type of depth that EVE has.

 

InEccess

Originally posted by Sovrath


 
I think the average person prefers more of an arcade game than one that has the type of depth that EVE has.

 

 

We are talking about Star Trek fans here. If ever there was a group of people who wished they had a game DEEPER than EVE, it's Trekies. Trust me, I know Trekies. They're still upset about the improbability of Red Matter.

Sovrath

Originally posted by InEccess

Originally posted by Sovrath


 
I think the average person prefers more of an arcade game than one that has the type of depth that EVE has.

 

 

We are talking about Star Trek fans here. If ever there was a group of people who wished they had a game DEEPER than EVE, it's Trekies. Trust me, I know Trekies. They're still upset about the improbability of Red Matter.

 

I don't think they are going after Trekkies or Trekkers. I think they are going after people who like Star Trek but who are NOT of the former that I listed.

Yamota

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by sonoggi


so these guys have been rolling out game after game based on the same old CoH formula. this formula works for CoH, but there's a reason why it was a small MMO. people need more than repetitive combat. STO had a fantastic opportunity to become a deeper game like EVE online, but it seems like an arcade game so far. these guys are seriously gonna crash and burn unless they adapt to the market.

 

That is NOT true. 11M players LOVE repetitive combat and we haven't added in the Diablo fans, the Borderlands fans and so on.

The real question is whether Cryptic can make repetitive combat fun and the jury is still out for that.

 

Are you comparing Blizzard and WoW to Cryptic and CoX/CO?

If you are then you need some serious help. I may not like WoW but a CoX/CO it is not. Not by a long shot.

Yamota

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by sonoggi


so these guys have been rolling out game after game based on the same old CoH formula. this formula works for CoH, but there's a reason why it was a small MMO. people need more than repetitive combat. STO had a fantastic opportunity to become a deeper game like EVE online, but it seems like an arcade game so far. these guys are seriously gonna crash and burn unless they adapt to the market.

 

I think the average person prefers more of an arcade game than one that has the type of depth that EVE has.

 

 

Really? Is that why Eve has 10 times the subscribers that CO or CoX has?

Not saying gamers dont like arcate type games, they do, but very few will pay a monthly fee for it. Because you know, there are tons of arcade type games that has no monthly fee. And that is where Cryptic has got it wrong. They create single player type games and expect people to pay a monthly fee for it. Sorry, but that just wont work and CO is proof of that.

Trollstar

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by sonoggi


so these guys have been rolling out game after game based on the same old CoH formula. this formula works for CoH, but there's a reason why it was a small MMO. people need more than repetitive combat. STO had a fantastic opportunity to become a deeper game like EVE online, but it seems like an arcade game so far. these guys are seriously gonna crash and burn unless they adapt to the market.

 

I think the average person prefers more of an arcade game than one that has the type of depth that EVE has.

 

 

Really? Is that why Eve has 10 times the subscribers that CO or CoX has?

No, but that's why console games or even WOW have far more subs than EVE does.

 

 

Yamota

Originally posted by Trollstar

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by sonoggi


so these guys have been rolling out game after game based on the same old CoH formula. this formula works for CoH, but there's a reason why it was a small MMO. people need more than repetitive combat. STO had a fantastic opportunity to become a deeper game like EVE online, but it seems like an arcade game so far. these guys are seriously gonna crash and burn unless they adapt to the market.

 

I think the average person prefers more of an arcade game than one that has the type of depth that EVE has.

 

 

Really? Is that why Eve has 10 times the subscribers that CO or CoX has?

No, but that's why console games or even WOW have far more subs than EVE does.

 

 

 

Yeah but those dont have a monthly fee now, do they?

And WoW is not the shallow piece of crap that CO is. I dont like it myself but there is no denying the vast amount of content that WoW has.

Moretrinkets

I like very much the character creation, but that's about it. STO should have been developed by Blizzard!

Sovrath

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by sonoggi


so these guys have been rolling out game after game based on the same old CoH formula. this formula works for CoH, but there's a reason why it was a small MMO. people need more than repetitive combat. STO had a fantastic opportunity to become a deeper game like EVE online, but it seems like an arcade game so far. these guys are seriously gonna crash and burn unless they adapt to the market.

 

I think the average person prefers more of an arcade game than one that has the type of depth that EVE has.

 

 

Really? Is that why Eve has 10 times the subscribers that CO or CoX has?

Not saying gamers dont like arcate type games, they do, but very few will pay a monthly fee for it. Because you know, there are tons of arcade type games that has no monthly fee. And that is where Cryptic has got it wrong. They create single player type games and expect people to pay a monthly fee for it. Sorry, but that just wont work and CO is proof of that.

 

But what is your reasoning?

My reasoning would be as follows (in relation to your example):

CoX is a super hero game which has a different audience than a Space Opera game. Not everyone wants to be a super hero as there is a certain bit of kitsch that goes along with it. Or perhaps camp.

EVE is a more hardcore pvp game than CoX which also has a different audience. However, there aren't many hardcore pvp games and there are more Casual games so a game like EVE is going to be a bigger attraction to that segement of players whereas a game like CoX is going to have to share the pie a bit more. Not to mention the whole "not everyone is into being a super hero".

To add to that, there aren't a lot of sci-fi mmo's therefore EVE will also be a big draw to those who want to get their Sci-Fi on.

I would say there are more people into sci-fi than super heroes as far as game play. There seem to be more sci-fi games overall than super hero games.

The average player will be more drawn to a game that allows them to get on and get off and have a bit of fun. EVE has a steeper learning curve and quite a bit of depth that the average person just isn't going to want to get into. Remember we are talking about Average person.

And in the end, we are not talking about comparing EVE to CoX. What we are talking about is comparing EVE to more casual more accessible games.

Do not read that I am saying EVE is a bad game in anyway. After trying the STO beta I'm reinstalling EVE because I want a direct comparison. However, I will iterate that the casual average player will go for a more casual game over EVE.

EVE doesn't cater to the casual player though it would seem that some of its mechanics should cater to them like skilling up over time.

There are many reasons why a game llke WOW has the subs it does. I know that the gamers who play it will nit pick and delve into all its features but everyone that I know who plays mmo's plays WoW (well, everyone that I know in my own life not game life) and everyone of them plays WoW because they can play it casually.

Yamota

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by sonoggi


so these guys have been rolling out game after game based on the same old CoH formula. this formula works for CoH, but there's a reason why it was a small MMO. people need more than repetitive combat. STO had a fantastic opportunity to become a deeper game like EVE online, but it seems like an arcade game so far. these guys are seriously gonna crash and burn unless they adapt to the market.

 

I think the average person prefers more of an arcade game than one that has the type of depth that EVE has.

 

 

Really? Is that why Eve has 10 times the subscribers that CO or CoX has?

Not saying gamers dont like arcate type games, they do, but very few will pay a monthly fee for it. Because you know, there are tons of arcade type games that has no monthly fee. And that is where Cryptic has got it wrong. They create single player type games and expect people to pay a monthly fee for it. Sorry, but that just wont work and CO is proof of that.

 

But what is your reasoning?

My reasoning would be as follows (in relation to your example):

CoX is a super hero game which has a different audience than a Space Opera game. Not everyone wants to be a super hero as there is a certain bit of kitsch that goes along with it. Or perhaps camp.

EVE is a more hardcore pvp game than CoX which also has a different audience. However, there aren't many hardcore pvp games and there are more Casual games so a game like EVE is going to be a bigger attraction to that segement of players whereas a game like CoX is going to have to share the pie a bit more. Not to mention the whole "not everyone is into being a super hero".

To add to that, there aren't a lot of sci-fi mmo's therefore EVE will also be a big draw to those who want to get their Sci-Fi on.

I would say there are more people into sci-fi than super heroes as far as game play. There seem to be more sci-fi games overall than super hero games.

The average player will be more drawn to a game that allows them to get on and get off and have a bit of fun. EVE has a steeper learning curve and quite a bit of depth that the average person just isn't going to want to get into. Remember we are talking about Average person.

And in the end, we are not talking about comparing EVE to CoX. What we are talking about is comparing EVE to more casual more accessible games.

Do not read that I am saying EVE is a bad game in anyway. After trying the STO beta I'm reinstalling EVE because I want a direct comparison. However, I will iterate that the casual average player will go for a more casual game over EVE.

EVE doesn't cater to the casual player though it would seem that some of its mechanics should cater to them like skilling up over time.

There are many reasons why a game llke WOW has the subs it does. I know that the gamers who play it will nit pick and delve into all its features but everyone that I know who plays mmo's plays WoW (well, everyone that I know in my own life not game life) and everyone of them plays WoW because they can play it casually.

This is the reasoning many dev companies have and that is: WoW is casual so if I just release a casual MMORPG then it will be a success.

Unfourtunaly for them this is not true since WoW is so much more than just casual, it has tons and tons of content and there is rarely times when you dont have anything to do in that game. Just recently they released a cross server group matching so that keeps getting evolved.

Now is casual something that gamers want? Yeah sure, but it is not enough to be a success. Cryptic debacle called CO was casual but it also completely lacked content, primarily group content, and there was not many alternate leveling routes for new players. Also it was so overinstanced that there really was no sense of MMORPG community. Finally the PvP in that game also seriously lacked content.

So by looking at WoW and then thinking that since WoW is a success then STO will be as well, since it is casual, is a huge misstake. Blizzard knows how to build good games, as proven by many different titles, Cryptic does not. They have made one game worth mentioning, and that was CoX, which was a decent MMORPG. But CO was a complete failure and now has lower XFire numbers than CoX, just 6 months after release, and everything I have seen so far makes me think STO is much more like CO than it is WoW.

So IF STO was WoW in space then it would probably blow Eve out of the water. But it would be foolish to think so.

nariusseldon

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by sonoggi


so these guys have been rolling out game after game based on the same old CoH formula. this formula works for CoH, but there's a reason why it was a small MMO. people need more than repetitive combat. STO had a fantastic opportunity to become a deeper game like EVE online, but it seems like an arcade game so far. these guys are seriously gonna crash and burn unless they adapt to the market.

 

That is NOT true. 11M players LOVE repetitive combat and we haven't added in the Diablo fans, the Borderlands fans and so on.

The real question is whether Cryptic can make repetitive combat fun and the jury is still out for that.

 

Are you comparing Blizzard and WoW to Cryptic and CoX/CO?

If you are then you need some serious help. I may not like WoW but a CoX/CO it is not. Not by a long shot.

 

Nope. I am just saying people LOVE a well made hack-n-slash combat agme. Deeper interaction is not required to make a good game.

Sovrath

Originally posted by Yamota


Now is casual something that gamers want? Yeah sure, but it is not enough to be a success. Cryptic debacle called CO was casual but it also completely lacked content, primarily group content, and there was not many alternate leveling routes for new players. Also it was so overinstanced that there really was no sense of MMORPG community. Finally the PvP in that game also seriously lacked content.

 

Yamota. Yamota.

I am not saying that casual equals success. I would moree than agree with you that a well polished game that has lots of content would be more on the road to success. But conversely, having depth is not a sure fire way to be a success either. And it depends on what one thinks of as success. I think that a game that has a die hard player base that can pay the bills and still stay open is a success. Even if it has 10 players and can do that on that small a playerbase.

what I am saying that the average person would prefer a more arcade type game over something as complex as EVE.

Your trying to then say "no EVE is more successful than CoX therefore more people prefer greater depth.

And I don't think that holds up. EVE is more successful than CoX because of the things I mentioned besides the fact that "yes" it had a lot of content.

The average person would prefer a game that is easier to get into and that is more immediatly fun. Average. Not a gamer or an mmo vet or mmo connoisseur.

What Nariusseldon said is correct.

I didn't play doom and doom II all those years because it had loads of depth. I played it because it was fun, easy to understand and was, again FUN!

edit: I mention wow because those I know who play it, play precisely because they can play it casually with friends and family. Oh sure, they aren't going to have top end gear or run with huge raid guilds. But they can log in for an hour or two and enoy  it immediatly and then log off.

Casual, average, good people just looking to enjoy themselves.