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General: Why Zombies are Like Pacman

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  • Jairoe03Jairoe03 Member Posts: 732

     I think much of the criticisms about the lack of imagination of the writers is a misunderstanding (and probably miscomprehension). All examples seem to lead to taking the words to an extreme case that he absolutely does not think it is feasible. Again, re-read the article, he was taking a traditional mold and trying to fit a zombie theme into it.

    He pointed out things have to be given up on one side or another (in turn, veering away from traditional zombie molds and from the traditional MMORPG mold). In the end, he does point out that the only way this can occur is if a lot things are done differently and actually lists his own off the wall ideas.

    Sure, imagination can be used to solve something like the death issue, but first of all, by doing that, you're already compromising both the traditional zombie molds (from the movies/books/comics) and the traditional MMORPG molds and he acknowledged something creative would have to be done to satisfy both ends of the spectrum. And in using traditional he's merely thinking marketable to general population (not the MMORPG.com population) that are fans to either/both zombies and MMORPG's, which makes companies money (also important and realistic).

    Sure, the previous poster posted all these ideas to resolve the death issue, but how marketable would it really be and would it really draw the attention/maintain the attention of a zombie MMO gamer? I bet you half of the critics couldn't even answer that question and its really an impossible question. If it was really that simple, maybe developers can just brainstorm the first 20 ideas they come up with for every aspect of a zombie MMO and just vote on which ones are the best one. That would make a great game huh ;)

    So, again, how exactly does this writer lack the imagination when he seems to at least comprehend and include the realism behind video game development and trying to satisfy the masses while trying not to compromise 2 very defined molds (zombies and MMOs). He does include ideas of his own, but just to show that something drastic has to be done for a zombie MMO could be feasible. It really is in much agreement to what many of the critics are trying to say against the writer. Again, I think the article defends itself, which I have pointed out in the last page as well. I guess people here just tend to shoot from the hip these days without considering previous input of the thread.

  • HenchdwarfHenchdwarf Member UncommonPosts: 517
    Originally posted by Jairoe03


     I think much of the criticisms about the lack of imagination of the writers is a misunderstanding (and probably miscomprehension). All examples seem to lead to taking the words to an extreme case that he absolutely does not think it is feasible. Again, re-read the article, he was taking a traditional mold and trying to fit a zombie theme into it.
    He pointed out things have to be given up on one side or another (in turn, veering away from traditional zombie molds and from the traditional MMORPG mold). In the end, he does point out that the only way this can occur is if a lot things are done differently and actually lists his own off the wall ideas.
    Sure, imagination can be used to solve something like the death issue, but first of all, by doing that, you're already compromising both the traditional zombie molds (from the movies/books/comics) and the traditional MMORPG molds and he acknowledged something creative would have to be done to satisfy both ends of the spectrum. And in using traditional he's merely thinking marketable to general population (not the MMORPG.com population) that are fans to either/both zombies and MMORPG's, which makes companies money (also important and realistic).
    Sure, the previous poster posted all these ideas to resolve the death issue, but how marketable would it really be and would it really draw the attention/maintain the attention of a zombie MMO gamer? I bet you half of the critics couldn't even answer that question and its really an impossible question. If it was really that simple, maybe developers can just brainstorm the first 20 ideas they come up with for every aspect of a zombie MMO and just vote on which ones are the best one. That would make a great game huh ;)
    So, again, how exactly does this writer lack the imagination when he seems to at least comprehend and include the realism behind video game development and trying to satisfy the masses while trying not to compromise 2 very defined molds (zombies and MMOs). He does include ideas of his own, but just to show that something drastic has to be done for a zombie MMO could be feasible. It really is in much agreement to what many of the critics are trying to say against the writer. Again, I think the article defends itself, which I have pointed out in the last page as well. I guess people here just tend to shoot from the hip these days without considering previous input of the thread.

    uhhh. no

     

    people dont agree with what he said and that's their right.  stop trying to pretend that only YOU understand the TRUTH of the article because it resonated with you as it has.

    you are entitled to your opinion and interpretation, and so are others.  

     

    in my opinion,  a writer would only frame his arguments in the manner he chose (ie zombie game clone of WoW would fail) because that was the only way he was able to imagine MMO design, and that the flaws he noted were part of ANY MMO being designed, and in the case of a zombie theme, gamestopping.  otherwise, his articles thesis would not have been Zombie MMO = Failsause. it would have instead been "zombie MMO = WTFPWN and here's how to do it right."

     

    whatever the case, dont act so leet about your perspective.  good for you, youre literate. that's about all you've proved by complaining about the opinions of others as you have.

  • Jairoe03Jairoe03 Member Posts: 732

    Don't be so offended that I can actually take the time and consideration to put out well thought-out posts. I'm sorry if it comes off to you as "leet", but then again, I don't see the difference between my posts and the much harsher critics of others on those terms. How about take in the content rather than just poke at the style of writing (which is really irrelevant). I never said they aren't entitled to an opinion, I'm merely challenging it, hence that's what the forums are all about just like they are challenging another writers. I chose to defend his stance and provide a different perspective on it. Please provide more support in your arguments rather than just pure subjective personal statements.

    I at least had the consideration to reference pieces of the article in where I believe he succeeded, I would like to see the pieces where he failed and I guess that's what I'm challenging/opposing. Again, less emphasis on the irrelevant pieces and more focus on the topic at hand please (with more support for arguments for once rather than pure statements) ;)

  • DoomsayerDoomsayer Member Posts: 344

    I don't know why you believe you have said anything astounding. You haven't said anything that someone hasn't already said before. You like the article, good for you. You believe it stands as a true testement to the development arc of a zombie based MMO. Nice, i'm happy for you.

    I also disagree. Good for me. Doesn't make you right, doesn't make me wrong. I just happen to believe that you, and the write of the article, suffer from a lack of vision. Dismiss me, I don't mind. I just don't feel like doing a point by point about it.

    ________________________________

    Everything born must die. All that is, will come to ruin. This is the essence of Doom. So sayeth the Doomsayer.

  • BountytakerBountytaker Member Posts: 323
    Originally posted by Jairoe03


     I think much of the criticisms about the lack of imagination of the writers is a misunderstanding (and probably miscomprehension). All examples seem to lead to taking the words to an extreme case that he absolutely does not think it is feasible. Again, re-read the article, he was taking a traditional mold and trying to fit a zombie theme into it.
    He pointed out things have to be given up on one side or another (in turn, veering away from traditional zombie molds and from the traditional MMORPG mold). In the end, he does point out that the only way this can occur is if a lot things are done differently and actually lists his own off the wall ideas.
    Sure, imagination can be used to solve something like the death issue, but first of all, by doing that, you're already compromising both the traditional zombie molds (from the movies/books/comics) and the traditional MMORPG molds and he acknowledged something creative would have to be done to satisfy both ends of the spectrum. And in using traditional he's merely thinking marketable to general population (not the MMORPG.com population) that are fans to either/both zombies and MMORPG's, which makes companies money (also important and realistic).
    Sure, the previous poster posted all these ideas to resolve the death issue, but how marketable would it really be and would it really draw the attention/maintain the attention of a zombie MMO gamer? I bet you half of the critics couldn't even answer that question and its really an impossible question. If it was really that simple, maybe developers can just brainstorm the first 20 ideas they come up with for every aspect of a zombie MMO and just vote on which ones are the best one. That would make a great game huh ;)
    So, again, how exactly does this writer lack the imagination when he seems to at least comprehend and include the realism behind video game development and trying to satisfy the masses while trying not to compromise 2 very defined molds (zombies and MMOs). He does include ideas of his own, but just to show that something drastic has to be done for a zombie MMO could be feasible. It really is in much agreement to what many of the critics are trying to say against the writer. Again, I think the article defends itself, which I have pointed out in the last page as well. I guess people here just tend to shoot from the hip these days without considering previous input of the thread.



     

    I call him "unimaginative" because:

    1)  In his opening paragraph, he equates a zombie mmo with, according to him, the most laughable mmo concept in the business (angels vs. demons).  He basically starts off by saying the genre is unfeasible..no, check that, LAUGHABLY unfeasible. 

    2)  Because he said ALL mmos (not just fantasy based) are basically retellings of the Hero's Journey.  Check that...he says they HAVE to be retellings of the "hero's journey".   Even though he himself admits that said story type has an ending, and mmo's don't.  Do YOU believe that mmo's can only follow one type of storytelling tradition?

    3)  He makes little to no effort to try to overcome the "problems" he sees with the genre..most of which are weak.  "Guns are weird"?  How many one-shot kills do you see in zombie lore/movies?  People shoot and don't kill all the time.  It takes five seconds to come up with solutions to that...folks did in this thread before 50 posts.  Oh, and buy the way...there are plenty of mmo's without battle-axes and/or with guns.

    4)  He says things like "The type of progression EXPECTED in an mmo" and "What's the item/skill/achievement thingy I can accomplish".  These are all overused, tired, boring mmo concepts.  There are NO original ideas in that three part list he has, despite what you may think.  He just reiterates, over and over, that it would be weird to make a zombie mmo that plays like a sword and sorcery mmo!

    5)  HE OFFERS NO IDEAS!

    6)  HE CONCLUDES IN A PAGE AND A HALF THAT ITS A NON-STARTER!

    7)  In his first article, he identifies the "scope" of a game as the first area where trouble can arise...but skips the real first choice designers have to make.  Namely, genre, the imaginative/artistic start of the game.  Read his first article...he views mmos from the monetary perspective almost entirely ignoring the "artistic" elements.  And, before you make some lame argument about mmo's being a business, don't bother..I know that, and I respect that.  But it IS a business that has "artists" and "designers", meaning there is another aspect to it.  MMO's can fail because of an unimaginative genre.  He doesn't get that.

    8)  His second article on this site was a suggestion that Twilight be made into an MMO.  His biggest, most original "idea" to date has been to try to bring MMO's to tween females with the BIGGEST IP around right now.  Oh, and btw, there's a real market out there for coke and hookers, in case you didn't know....

     

    I've read every one of his articles.  Twice.  I've posted in each talkback, more than once each time.  From the beginning, the articles have lacked inspiration, innovation, or imagination.  Many have said as much.  If you don't agree, than good for you, and for him.  He has another customer.  I, however, am looking for more from the games I WANT to play...I HOPE more feel the way I do..if not, then I guess I'm stuck.

    I still won't be buying games from him or his company if THIS is how they view the "industry" and its fans though.

  • darkrose50darkrose50 Member Posts: 11

    Q: Is a zombie game a post-apocalyptic setting?

    A: Most likely.

    Q: Can a post-apoplectic MMORPG game be made?

    A: Yes. The Fallen Earth MMO is doing okay and a Fallout MMO is evidently in the works. Fallout is a success and the mutants may as well be zombies.

    Q: Can you run a post-apoplectic MMO without zombies?

    A: Yes.  But, most (all?) have them in one form or the other.

    Q: How would a zombie MMO differ from another post-apoplectic setting?

    A: (More) zombies would be included in the mix.

    Q: What other MMO's have zombies?

    A: World of Warcraft . . . and a list a mile long.

    Q: Do those other MMO's with zombies have rules for headshots?

    A: Most do not. The vast majority of them do not.

    Q: Any game with zombies has rules for infection, right?

    A: Nope.

    Q: If a game had rules for infection, what would they have to conceder?

    A: If some folks can be immune to AIDS (certain descendents of the bubonic plague), then I think some folks can be immune to some zombie disease. Such folks would make great exterminators.

    Q: I don't understand. Post-apoplectic games can be made and be successful.

    A: Yes

    Q: . . . and Games with zombies can be made and be successful.

    A: Yes

    Q: What is the issue here?

    A: Evidently a Post-apoplectic game where zombies cause the fall of modern society can not be made into a successful MMO.

    Q: Why?

    A: Because people in such a world only die. There are never any survivors.

    Q: So people are the most invasive species on earth. We can fart, belch, have diarrhea, throw up, and use tools (all real reasons we are invasive) . . . as well as outperform great white sharks, killer whales, grizzly bears, lions, and hippos (deadly things) . . . and yet we are too stupid to survive some roaming flesh eating freaks?

    A: Evidently that is the argument.

    Q: Can we wear Kevlar trench coats and PVP or ceramic Star Wars Storm Trooper suits to avoid being bitten? What about APCs, tanks, bombers, helicopters, sniper rifles, and remote drones?

    A: Zombie movies assume humans are stupid and don't use tools.

    Q: People need to be stupid in a zombie survival horror, right?

    A: Evidently that is the argument. I am not sure it would be fun to play in a MMO where everyone is stupid.

    Q: Why does a MMO zombie game need to be a survival horror full or morons?

    A: It does not.

    Q: Why does a MMO need to be like a movie?

    A: They do not. That would be boring. RPG's began with pen-and-paper games where people could make fun decisions for characters that would otherwise be a horrible, terrible movie or story! RPGs do not make for good fiction (Margret Wise did not set a tape recorder down when playing D&D and transcribe all those Dargonlance stories . . . she wrote them)!

     

     

  • HenchdwarfHenchdwarf Member UncommonPosts: 517

    calling a zombie invasion "post apoplectic" sounds like it came from southpark.

     

    i for one, am in hysterics.

  • Jairoe03Jairoe03 Member Posts: 732
    Originally posted by darkrose50


    Q: Is a zombie game a post-apoplectic setting?

    A: Most likely.
    Q: Can a post-apoplectic MMORPG game be made?

    A: Yes. The Fallen Earth MMO is doing okay and a Fallout MMO is evidently in the works. Fallout is a success and the mutants may as well be zombies.
    Q: Can you run a post-apoplectic MMO without zombies?

    A: Yes.  But, most (all?) have them in one form or the other.
    Q: How would a zombie MMO differ from another post-apoplectic setting?

    A: (More) zombies would be included in the mix.
    Q: What other MMO's have zombies?

    A: World of Warcraft . . . and a list a mile long.
    Q: Do those other MMO's with zombies have rules for headshots?

    A: Most do not. The vast majority of them do not.
    Q: Any game with zombies has rules for infection, right?

    A: Nope.
    Q: If a game had rules for infection, what would they have to conceder?

    A: If some folks can be immune to AIDS (certain descendents of the bubonic plague), then I think some folks can be immune to some zombie disease. Such folks would make great exterminators.
    Q: I don't understand. Post-apoplectic games can be made and be successful.

    A: Yes
    Q: . . . and Games with zombies can be made and be successful.

    A: Yes
    Q: What is the issue here?

    A: Evidently a Post-apoplectic game where zombies cause the fall of modern society can not be made into a successful MMO.
    Q: Why?

    A: Because people in such a world only die. There are never any survivors.
    Q: So people are the most invasive species on earth. We can fart, belch, have diarrhea, throw up, and use tools (all real reasons we are invasive) . . . as well as outperform great white sharks, killer whales, grizzly bears, lions, and hippos (deadly things) . . . and yet we are too stupid to survive some roaming flesh eating freaks?

    A: Evidently that is the argument.
    Q: Can we wear Kevlar trench coats and PVP or ceramic Star Wars Storm Trooper suits to avoid being bitten? What about APCs, tanks, bombers, helicopters, sniper rifles, and remote drones?

    A: Zombie movies assume humans are stupid and don't use tools.
    Q: People need to be stupid in a zombie survival horror, right?

    A: Evidently that is the argument. I am not sure it would be fun to play in a MMO where everyone is stupid.
    Q: Why does a MMO zombie game need to be a survival horror full or morons?

    A: It does not.
    Q: Why does a MMO need to be like a movie?

    A: They do not. That would be boring. RPG's began with pen-and-paper games where people could make fun decisions for characters that would otherwise be a horrible, terrible movie or story! RPGs do not make for good fiction (Margret Wise did not set a tape recorder down when playing D&D and transcribe all those Dargonlance stories . . . she wrote them)!

     
     

     

    Let's take this in order, first the huge flaw is what defines post apocalyptic worlds and zombie worlds, which are vast differences. A post apocalyptic world would be more likes the world AFTER the zombie outbreak/invasion settles and humans found a way to adapt to everyday life. Generally in a post apocalyptic background, humans found some form of normality. Zombie settings tend to the world in chaos, in the middle of an outbreak. A lot more hectic and on the fly, no sense of balance or normality yet alone a safe day to day schedule. Again, we're speaking very generally here. So, no, post apocalyptic and zombie settings are two totally different things here.

    An mmo that includes zombies and an MMO that revolves around zombies are two different types of things. Especially when you're trying to capture a zombie feel in one moreso than a world that just has a little spot on the map that has zombies. Again, a bad comparison. You can't just try and compare a various MMO's and say hey these are successful so lets just put a big giant zombie between them and make a zombie sandwich and everybody is expected to love it. The game industry/population isn't that simple. I'm sure there's millions of ideas that you can use for all sorts of zombie MMO's and all sorts of setups you can layout for them, its a matter of whether or not people will find it fun and will find it fun enough to fork over the money. That's the giant premise here. A game company is a company after all and it does need to worry about the money somewhere in there.

    Your final exaggerations aren't worth responding to since they are a bit outlandish and I can't tell whether or not you are actually serious lol. Using an exaggeration to try and support an argument is fairly moot just in my opinion.

    On a final note about survival horror, what do you think 90% of people are doing when they are playing a zombie game (of any kind, FPS, MMO)? Yes, they are trying to survive a massive onslaught against beings that show no limits. When zombies are involved generally, some form of survival is also involved for the most part or there would be no point in a zombie game. It would be Zombie Sim City without the terrified humans struggling for survival.

  • darkrose50darkrose50 Member Posts: 11

    [quote]

    Let's take this in order, first the huge flaw is what defines post apocalyptic worlds and zombie worlds, which are vast differences. A post apocalyptic world would be more likes the world AFTER the zombie outbreak/invasion settles and humans found a way to adapt to everyday life. Generally in a post apocalyptic background, humans found some form of normality. Zombie settings tend to the world in chaos, in the middle of an outbreak. A lot more hectic and on the fly, no sense of balance or normality yet alone a safe day to day schedule. Again, we're speaking very generally here. So, no, post apocalyptic and zombie settings are two totally different things here.

    [/quote]

    Post apocalyptic: after a disastrous future or outcome. Walking man-eating zombies are rather disastrous. Not calling a game based on a mutant plague post apocalyptic is silly.



    [quote]

    An mmo that includes zombies and an MMO that revolves around zombies are two different types of things. Especially when you're trying to capture a zombie feel in one moreso than a world that just has a little spot on the map that has zombies. Again, a bad comparison. You can't just try and compare a various MMO's and say hey these are successful so lets just put a big giant zombie between them and make a zombie sandwich and everybody is expected to love it. The game industry/population isn't that simple. I'm sure there's millions of ideas that you can use for all sorts of zombie MMO's and all sorts of setups you can layout for them, its a matter of whether or not people will find it fun and will find it fun enough to fork over the money. That's the giant premise here. A game company is a company after all and it does need to worry about the money somewhere in there.

    [/quote]

    It is entered in the record that lots of MMOs have zombies. Zombies do not have a prerequisite of headshots and zombifying bites.

    [quote]

    Your final exaggerations aren't worth responding to since they are a bit outlandish and I can't tell whether or not you are actually serious lol. Using an exaggeration to try and support an argument is fairly moot just in my opinion.

    [/quote]

    It is ironic that using silliness to combat the silliness of the claim that a zombie game can't be done is humorous.

    [quote]

    On a final note about survival horror, what do you think 90% of people are doing when they are playing a zombie game (of any kind, FPS, MMO)? Yes, they are trying to survive a massive onslaught against beings that show no limits. When zombies are involved generally, some form of survival is also involved for the most part or there would be no point in a zombie game. It would be Zombie Sim City without the terrified humans struggling for survival.

    [/quote]

    A zombie game cannot be based around resource acquisition and community growth? I do not think that is true at all.

    Zombie Sim City would be a blast!

     

  • darkrose50darkrose50 Member Posts: 11
    Originally posted by Cruoris


    calling a zombie invasion "post apoplectic" sounds like it came from southpark.
     
    i for one, am in hysterics.



     

    Spell check critical failure.

  • jaycat80jaycat80 Member Posts: 6

    Just gonna post a few ideas that have come to mind. Sorry if I say things that have already been covered but after reading 20 or so posts I wanted to chime in.

    HUMANS: I love the idea of skills being leveled through use and practice. Like for example if you have a shotgun and a pistol but rarely use the pistol. Perhaps when aiming (ironsights view) will be a lot more steady with the shotgun than a pistol. New weapon type, new skill to level up through use.

    I also like the idea of tutors and their ability to teach others (from a way earlier post) I would definitely limit the number of times a certain skill could be tauhgt by these tutors (increased the more you teach) and perhaps a cool down on people who have just been taught. This could be based on a person ability to learn as well, i.e. fighting type characters may be harder to teach when it comes to academic based skills than a academic character. Academics may have shorter cooldowns than fighting types help make them more useful as a whole.  I could go on and on as far as skills/classes (I would call them Profession Type or Pre-Outbreak Profession) and maybe I'll jump to it as I tend to wander. I do like the SWG handled all the classes!

    HUMAN DEATH: I have heard many ideas on this and think perhaps a combination of these would work. DAoC as well as other games had players armor/weapons/etc. lose permanently structure points through wear and tear. Perhaps the same could go for players upon death. Player could respawn but would lose health points, skills levels permanently to the point where the character would become useless (unable to teach successfully with insane cooldown periods, or almost impossible shakiness when aiming/shooting any weapons or minimal damage when wielding melee weapons).  This could be tailored by the game designers to give people numerous chances to perfect their character, have kids/sidekicks whatever to carry on their legacy plus pass on some of their skills and perhaps have a hidden stash (locker or vault with  very little storage) to stash a few items to be retrieved by the newly created character.

    ZOMBIES: Make them a playable race. I would defintely have atleast 2 types of zombies "runners" and "walkers". The runners ability would be a stamina bar that drains at a much slowers rate than that of human players allowing them to seemingly run forever and attack vicously (i.e. Rage virus zombie) Walkers could have the ability to control NPC zombies and perhaps summon NPC zombies to add to their numbers. I like a "Moooaaaannnnn" ability that charges up (charge rates could vary) and once full they could let loose the moan that would put nearby players in a "fear state" (maybe something like concusion affects in a FPS). This could also send out a call to other player zombies looking for action or make the temporary spawn point for zombies to comeinto action or summona big zombie rush like in L4D etc. I think both zombie types should cause a fear affect once they get close to humans. This could "leveled" as a zombie kills. I also heard a lot of other ideas as far as zombies go like eating to regain health that seem like goo ideas.

    Just a few thoughts, I have a ton but need to go back to work for a while. Again sorry if I am just repeating other ideas but the idea of this game has me excited!!!

  • darkraptordarkraptor Member Posts: 178

    from the start, I think this article is inaccurate. MMO concepts and zombie concepts are only in contrast if they are the specific zombie concept the author is writing about. There are lots of other zombie concepts out there, in many forms.

    Blackbird Dreaming would be an amazing concept to be put into a MMO zombiefest, for example.

    /rant

  • CoryMLeeCoryMLee Member Posts: 33
    Originally posted by eduty
    Enter the zombie. An infinite and renewable foe that is always hungry, always attacking, always recruiting, and never tiring. It makes sense that players are continuously defending the farm from the zombie horde, because zombies are mindless and relentless. Killing a few just gives you some time before others show up.
    Throw in the potential for a post-apocalypse setting and you have the making of a sandbox game with an enemy everyone loves to hate. The game would be about collecting resources to fortify small communities of players across an undead controlled landscape.

         I really liked this view of the zombies, however I think that a zombie game just has to be a pvp game. 

         Zombies don't have to be mindless, I think they could be a viable player race in a blurred faction based  PvP game.  I like the idea of a very intelligent manipulative, caste system based zombie, similar to the modern human race, sans the whole breathing thing. 

         We actually did a video on our video blog about this, here's the link if anyone would like to check out our design for a zombie MMO: mmopulse.com/

    For more of our thoughts and opinions on MMOs and the MMO industry in general, visit our video blog at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>www.mmopulse.com<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

  • DekronDekron Member UncommonPosts: 7,358

    To address point #2 you can implement a "perma-death" type mechanic. However, perma-death would be a two-step process. First, if bitten, one would die and then reanimate as a zombie. Then, once you're zombie head has been capped, your character perma dies.

    This would be a niche, but hell, it would be fun.

  • YounggYoungg Member Posts: 61

    I thought i would chip in with my idea that Each character should be limited to the amount of things that they can learn.. for instance If you choose to become the medic in the team this should limit your fighting skills and maybe cooking skills without totally stopping them .

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