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Originally posted by AxehiltI'm more curious about this question:Is it possible for the word Hardcore to be useful or meaningful in any discussion about MMORPGs?I mean I'll occasionally toss the term around to refer to people who play considerably more than others, but calling PVP or PVE "hardcore" is pretty damn useless.
This. Define your terms.
"World of Warcraft is the perfect implementation of this genre." - Hilmar Petursson. CEO of CCP.
If a MMO can keep both pvp and pve connected somehow then I can see them working in one game.
As an example have players have pve progression raids to work toward but have all the raids and world raid bosses be in pvp areas that need to be controlled by one side to access the content.
But thats all, dont offer anything else, dont also add instanced pvp, dont also add casual small dungeon farming in pve areas,
If you do that you splinter the community and then it falls on its face.
people will go for the least resistance, THey will avoid World pvp for instanced pvp and Contested raids for small dungeons with comparable loot and the game will suck ass.
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Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
I doubt and question the possibility of such a game, for the PVP it would have to be an open world free for all, but that would ruin the experience of the PVEers due to Pkers.
Good MMO...yes, no such game has been made yet sadly.
Originally posted by Zorndorf Originally posted by fyerwall Originally posted by Zorndorf Sociology (in our western civilisation) is the common factor here.Our society is ladder based, so competitive "play" and present day sports are a reflection of it.So in an mmorpg the "hardest" hardcore in PvP is based on a ladder system as is society and our "norms" of " work" and "leistung".Go back a few ages and you don't have this definition of modern sports (it all started with the industrial process of our western societies).As a matter of fact: Arena is simply TOO hardcore for a game like WOW (and Blizzard already ack'd this).A game option in which already 50% are rated UNDER the average and where only 1% can reach champ status is simply TOO hard for an mmorpg .... that needs subscriptions to be paid ...So ... in fact ANY mmorpg based on a ladder based competitive PvP play is doomed (if no other options are available).
The problem is Arena PvP is not the same as world PvP.
Areana PvP is an even fight (same numbers on each side and dependant upon stats of those involved involving around the same sort of skill level between both sides). A ladder system works here because this system makes it easier to calculate and track who 'the best' is/are. It makes it more of a 'sport' than a battle.
World PvP is based around more of a war type setting where bodies can matter more than skill/stats can. On a battlefield anything can change the outcome (be it players, variables such as weather (if talking about the real world), Mobs/NPCs who happen to get involved, etc...). This is why you see a lot more people considering this sort of PvP to be preferable to Arena style PvP, the fact that the unknown can have a great impact on the outcome. War was never meant to be fair, controlled or evenly matched. If that were the case, Pitting Germany against Russia in an arena in WWII would have possibly resulted in Russia falling victim to Germany.
The question was what is "hardcore". I explained above what our society considers hardcore in modern day competitive settings ... in Person versus Person interaction.
Sports are a mirror to the productiveness in our society, that's why they are "popular", as they confirm the priciples of "Leistung and work". Sports quantifies it in cms, seconds, records,etc...
The ladder based competition is simply the hardest form of competition and ... is ... too hard to be implemented as a solo option in mmorpg's with subcriptions.
The "world" PvP with uncontrollable individual settings and NON quantified "data" of the "Leistung" is more popular, because it doesn't RATE the work on each individual.
So while it may seem more "hardcore" , it really is a soft version with uncontrollable measurement. BUT ... the subs WILL not get cancelled if you can win "sometimes".
First off, aside from running at the mouth like you usually do, you can't say 'society' considers hardcore ANYTHING since every one has a different view on 'hardcore'. Therefor, your 'definition' is exactly that...YOUR definition. Compare sports all you like for the 'measurements' of fair competition,it has no bearing on what definition 'hardcore' is evaluated on.
Your blanket statement of 'society's' definition is simply your simplistic, overgeneralization of what you want your argument to be based on. There is absolutely no fact where you can prove that the western world defines the term 'hardcore' by your definition, and THAT is the only fact worth mentioning here.
Sure it's possible. PVP needs to be a last resort though type of mechanic, not something you log in and do. PVP is similar to an orgasm.
See you in the dream..The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.