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Is it possible: For a MMORPG, to have both HardCore PvP and HardCore PvE all in the same game?

Is it possible: For a MMORPG, to have both HardCore PvP and HardCore PvE all in the same game?

If so, how do you believe it could/should be done?

 

I been seeing vast rage on the topic of Hardcore game play, and would like to see a Good MMORPG to come out for this crowd.

But coming from WoW, I would really like to see more games that have both PvE End Dame and PvP End Game all in the same MMORPG. Hardcore or not, I want to see more Hybrid Endgame MMORPGs.



If done correctly, this could be a huge success, and lower down the hardcore community’s rage.

 

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Comments

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504

    I'm more curious about this question:

    • Is it possible for the word Hardcore to be useful or meaningful in any discussion about MMORPGs?

    I mean I'll occasionally toss the term around to refer to people who play considerably more than others, but calling PVP or PVE "hardcore" is pretty damn useless.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • whisperwyndwhisperwynd Member UncommonPosts: 1,668
    Originally posted by Axehilt


    I'm more curious about this question:

    Is it possible for the word Hardcore to be a useful or meaningful in any discussion about MMORPGs?

    I mean I'll occasionally toss the term around to refer to people who play considerably more than others, but calling PVP or PVE "hardcore" is pretty damn useless.



     

    Seriously, what is with this term being used so often as of late? Why is it that when a futile debate ensues with one thread, multiple threads on the same obviously biased and opinion-weighted word pops up everywhere?

    This isn't Maury Povich or even Jerry Springer.

    I call 

  • djazzydjazzy Member Posts: 3,578

    "Hardcore" is a buzz word. Now what that means...well you tell me.

  • paulscottpaulscott Member Posts: 5,613

    It is not possible using mechanics familar to the players to support "hardcore" of both of both PvE and PvP. 

    However it is possible if you take PvE and turn it into Player verses Environment or Play for Survival.

    However since parties that "parrot" the word "hardcore" are among the pickiest and will gladly ignore all the great things a game has because ONE thing is wrong, it is impossible to develop such a game and have it survive.

    I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.

  • arctarusarctarus Member UncommonPosts: 2,581

    Imo, vanilla WoW does it quite well. Its difficult to get gear in pve raid and maybe more hardcore in pvp to earn and maintain honor kills, rank...

     

     

     

     

    RIP Orc Choppa

  • CeridithCeridith Member UncommonPosts: 2,980

    PvP and PvE balance are mutually exclusive. That is, without dumbing down the game so much that it is extremely simple, in which case there is nothing hardcore about extremely simple.

    So, even if you did get "hardcore" PvP and PvE in the same game, one, the other, or both would be humorously out of balance.

  • djazzydjazzy Member Posts: 3,578

    Or you could balance the skills used for each part of the game. Guild Wars does this, skills will have a different effect depending if it's pve or pvp.

  • TheHatterTheHatter Member Posts: 2,547
  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by arenasb


    Or you could balance the skills used for each part of the game. Guild Wars does this, skills will have a different effect depending if it's pve or pvp.



     

    Yeah, there's multiple ways of achieving PVE/PVP balance (assuming the reasonable "mostly balanced" definition of balance, since "perfect balance" is unrealistic for any game with different classes/playstyles.)  Having differnet effects for skills in PVE/PVP is one method.  Having PVE play out just like PVP is another (such as the removal of taunt/threat mechanics.)

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • ReklawReklaw Member UncommonPosts: 6,495

    Is it possible: For a MMORPG, to have both HardCore PvP and HardCore PvE all in the same game?

    Yes it is possible, kinda what this genre is about, but somehow I think many people don't get that, reason why we see so many topics like this.

  • IlvaldyrIlvaldyr Member CommonPosts: 2,142

    I'm gonna say "no".

    Mainly because no-one can ever agree what "hardcore" even means.

    image
    Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
  • brs24brs24 Member Posts: 11

    Yes, that game was called Asheron's Call and was probably 10-20 years ahead of its time.

  • IlvaldyrIlvaldyr Member CommonPosts: 2,142
    Originally posted by Zorndorf

    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr


    I'm gonna say "no".
    Mainly because no-one can ever agree what "hardcore" even means.

    Most hardcore PvP is the ladder based competition PvP

    Depends on interpretation.

    For some, hardcore = difficult and competitive, i.e. Ladder based.

    For others, hardcore = long time investment; i.e. Bladder based.

    'til we have a consensus on what hardcore means, we're just pishing in the wind.

    image
    Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
  • IlvaldyrIlvaldyr Member CommonPosts: 2,142
    Originally posted by Zorndorf

    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Zorndorf


    Most hardcore PvP is the ladder based competition PvP

    Depends on interpretation.

    For some, hardcore = difficult and competitive, i.e. Ladder based.

    For others, hardcore = long time investment; i.e. Bladder based.

    'til we have a consensus on what hardcore means, we're just pishing in the wind.

    The consensus in our society is that it is "competition" based.

    We're all from different societies.

    You're from Belgium, I'm English. Most people on this site are American.

    As a forum community, we have no consensus on most things.

    image
    Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
  • fyerwallfyerwall Member UncommonPosts: 3,240
    Originally posted by Zorndorf

    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Zorndorf


    Most hardcore PvP is the ladder based competition PvP

    Depends on interpretation.

    For some, hardcore = difficult and competitive, i.e. Ladder based.

    For others, hardcore = long time investment; i.e. Bladder based.

    'til we have a consensus on what hardcore means, we're just pishing in the wind.



     

    The consensus in our society is that it is "competition" based.

    That's why sports are so popular: sports measure our "work" in measurable quantification: like seconds, distance, scores and records.

    Since PvP is an inter human activity, the accent should lay on the competition and not the "longest time doing things".

    That last one could be included in PVE content, but no in a PvP measurement where - after all - you are up against the human competitor.

    Ladder based PvP competition is the ultimate challenge, because the champs of today will be succeded by the champs of tomorrow.

    The "ultimate challenge" in a competition is always ladder based.

    That's a society fact .



     

    Actually its dependant upon the the person, not the consensus.

    Some people equate Hardcore with investments such as time and difficulty in a game such as an MMO.

    Others consider Hardcore based on a ladder system style gameplay (which does also include difficulty and time investments - because if you dont play as often or against as many opponents, you start to lose positioning to those who do).

    In this day and age yes, more people have moved toward the ladder based measurements as far as competitor based gameplay. In doing so though, they have taken away a lot of what made competition in games such as MMOs 'fun' for most - being known by your reputation on the field and not by your rank on a ladder.

    Ladder systems just replaced reputation with statistics to make it easier for the masses to calculate who the 'best' was.

    There are 3 types of people in the world.
    1.) Those who make things happen
    2.) Those who watch things happen
    3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"


  • KhalathwyrKhalathwyr Member Posts: 3,138
    Originally posted by brs24


    Yes, that game was called Asheron's Call and was probably 10-20 years ahead of its time.

     

    Yep. Like I always say, with every post I make in fact (in my sig), AC is the red-headed step-child of the MMO world. A PvP server ruleset that many still sing the praises of today and PvE worlds with loot and content and mechanics that were just great. It wasn't perfect (though near enough for me) and things like getting rid of botting needed to be worked on, but the game's mechanics/systems as a whole should have been used and polished and updated and refined a few times by now in subsequent games.

    "Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

    Kickstarter 2 / Naysayers 0

  • fyerwallfyerwall Member UncommonPosts: 3,240
    Originally posted by Zorndorf

    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Zorndorf

    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Zorndorf


    Most hardcore PvP is the ladder based competition PvP

    Depends on interpretation.

    For some, hardcore = difficult and competitive, i.e. Ladder based.

    For others, hardcore = long time investment; i.e. Bladder based.

    'til we have a consensus on what hardcore means, we're just pishing in the wind.

    The consensus in our society is that it is "competition" based.

    We're all from different societies.

    You're from Belgium, I'm English. Most people on this site are American.

    As a forum community, we have no consensus on most things.



     

    Sociology (in our western civilisation) is the common factor here.

    Our society is ladder based, so competitive "play" and present day sports are a reflection of it.

    So in an mmorpg the "hardest" hardcore in PvP is based on a ladder system as is society and our "norms" of " work" and "leistung".

    Go back a few ages and you don't have this definition of modern sports (it all started with the industrial process of our western societies).

    As a matter of fact: Arena is simply TOO hardcore for a game like WOW (and Blizzard already ack'd this).

    A game option in which already 50% are rated UNDER the average and where only 1% can reach champ status is simply TOO hard for an mmorpg .... that needs subscriptions to be paid ...

    So ... in fact ANY mmorpg based on a ladder based competitive PvP play is doomed (if no other options are available).

     



     

    The problem is Arena PvP is not the same as world PvP.

    Areana PvP is an even fight (same numbers on each side and dependant upon stats of those involved involving around the same sort of skill level between both sides). A ladder system works here because this system makes it easier to calculate and track who 'the best' is/are. It makes it more of a 'sport' than a battle.

    World PvP is based around more of a war type setting where bodies can matter more than skill/stats can. On a battlefield anything can change the outcome (be it players, variables such as weather (if talking about the real world), Mobs/NPCs who happen to get involved, etc...). This is why you see a lot more people considering this sort of PvP to be preferable to Arena style PvP, the fact that the unknown can have a great impact on the outcome. War was never meant to be fair, controlled or evenly matched. If that were the case, Pitting Germany against Russia in an arena in WWII would have possibly resulted in Russia falling victim to Germany.

    There are 3 types of people in the world.
    1.) Those who make things happen
    2.) Those who watch things happen
    3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"


  • spades07spades07 Member UncommonPosts: 852

    I maybe blunt here but hardcore PvE doesn't really exist does it? The mobs have no AI for one.

  • kopemakopema Member Posts: 263
    Originally posted by tro44_1


    Is it possible: For a MMORPG, to have both HardCore PvP and HardCore PvE all in the same game?



     

    Yes and no.

    One MMORPG can have PvP and PvE, but they are not the same game.

    A lot of people are confused by the fact that many of the same graphics are reused.  However, the the very concepts of PvE and PvP games are not merely different; they are in many ways precisely opposite.

  • LansidLansid Member Posts: 1,097
    Originally posted by Axehilt


    I'm more curious about this question:

    Is it possible for the word Hardcore to be useful or meaningful in any discussion about MMORPGs?

    I mean I'll occasionally toss the term around to refer to people who play considerably more than others, but calling PVP or PVE "hardcore" is pretty damn useless.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardcore_gamer

    Wiki is truth. Long live Wiki. lol

    "There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."

  • djazzydjazzy Member Posts: 3,578

    Interesting that you stated wiki. Here is the second sentence in that page,

    There is currently no unanimously agreed upon definition for the term

  • midmagicmidmagic Member Posts: 614
    Originally posted by Ceridith


    PvP and PvE balance are mutually exclusive. That is, without dumbing down the game so much that it is extremely simple, in which case there is nothing hardcore about extremely simple.
    So, even if you did get "hardcore" PvP and PvE in the same game, one, the other, or both would be humorously out of balance.

     

    Not if the developer makes pvp and pve gameplay relatively the same.

    Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.

  • toddzetoddze Member UncommonPosts: 2,150
    Originally posted by tro44_1


    Is it possible: For a MMORPG, to have both HardCore PvP and HardCore PvE all in the same game?
    If so, how do you believe it could/should be done?
     
    I been seeing vast rage on the topic of Hardcore game play, and would like to see a Good MMORPG to come out for this crowd.
    But coming from WoW, I would really like to see more games that have both PvE End Dame and PvP End Game all in the same MMORPG. Hardcore or not, I want to see more Hybrid Endgame MMORPGs.


    If done correctly, this could be a huge success, and lower down the hardcore community’s rage.

     

     

    It really depends on your definition of hardcore PvP and PvE.

    If your talking about FFA open world PvP then no you cant have hardcore open world  PvE. Youll have massive zerg guild monopolizing content. So much so that one really couldnt enjoy the PvE aspect. So my opinion its not possible.

    Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
    Now Playing: N/A
    Worst MMO: FFXIV
    Favorite MMO: FFXI

  • RajCajRajCaj Member UncommonPosts: 704

    As cheap and unimaginative as Ultima Online was about it, they had a good system in place with the Felucia / Trammel system. 

    For those who haven't played the game, the "PvP Switch" in UO was your choice to play in in a world with "Wild Wild West" rule set that allowed for complete open PvP and to play in a mirror image of the world where PvP is limited to waring factions and clans.

    Those who wanted to play in a more risky hardcore enivronment (sometimes for better rewards) you can play in Felucia....if you wanted a safer existence you chose Trammel.

    Not saying UO had hardcore PvE......but the system they went with to apease both niches wasn't all that bad considering how lazy the solution was.

  • luckturtzluckturtz Member Posts: 422

    Hardcore PVP= Full loot PvP?

    Hardcore PVE= Raiding for Phat loot?

     

    I can't see the two existing.If you meant

    Hardcore PvP: DAOC PvP

    Hardcore PVE: WoW  endgame PVE

    Then yes,It could happen if War had put a little more focus on PVE you might have had that game.Most games made today have that focus Aion,AoC for example,I willing to bet ToR will be more of the same.I believe even Final Fantasy will be force to put in some pvp in its game.

     

     

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