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Star Trek Online: Preview, Part Three

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  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Originally posted by zaxxon23

    Originally posted by Robsolf

    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

    Originally posted by Phry 
     
    Your post reminded me of another of my questions.. but.. why do starships drop loot items ? 

    It's because it's an MMO standard. WoW in a Trek skin.

    Why is there an Auction House? Ranged Healing? Same answer.

     

    I was always under the impression that the Federation Military was pretty much socialistic.  I don't recall anyone ever having to pay anything for anything, and they have food synthesizers and whatnot.  Seems to me, since you have a military owned vessel, that you'd have to use some form of reputation as currency rather than... space bucks, to buy mods and new ships.

     

    Technically speaking all starfleet officers are paid a salary, although that is of course not necessary in the federation because they do not use currency.  The pay is for other societies, which do use money.  So Trek lore supports the use of money.  

     

    I couldn't quote you the exact reference of this but it was in a star trek official encyclopedia of some sort that I read about 10 years ago.  The fact that other societies use money is supported by the official canon primarily in the television series.  Considering other societies use currency as a medium of exchange, starfleet and other federation entities are required to use money to trade with other civilizations.  It's just the common civilians of the federation that have no need for money (at least for basic goods).  Any luxury you'd want to purchase wouldn't be given to you just because your society doesn't have currency.  It's just basically a form of socialism.



     

    So, they use other peoples money? kind of weird.. does that mean that klingon currency is the defacto standard unit in the federation as it now appears that the federation has somehow monetarised ??? 

  • RohnRohn Member UncommonPosts: 3,730
    Originally posted by Yamota


    The neutral zone is just a queing system for PvP scenarios? Wow, sounds like another debacle to me.
    What was missing in CO was world PvP or atleast zone PvP but it seems like, again, Cryptic didnt get it and offered only PvP scenarios, even in the neutral zone.
    Lame.



     

    Perhaps a "debacle" (lol) for some.  Everyone's got an opinion.

    To me, that's what it comes down to - opinion and taste.  Every game's PvP is going to be "lame" to someone.  What I've found is that the implementation is more important than the general focus or type of PvP each game has.

    Instanced PvP is lame to some - sterile, contrived, "fair", removed from the world.  Open world PvP can be just as lame - susceptible to the zerg, griefing, gate-camping, population dependent.

    I think I'll wait until I've played it, and experience Cryptic's take on PvP, before whipping out the hyperbole.

    Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  • KarahandrasKarahandras Member UncommonPosts: 1,703
    Originally posted by gingus418


     I'm torn here. While I love the premise of the game, I don't like how instanced the game is turning out to be.... knowing me though I'll be picking it up anyway, just to see what all the fuss is about. 

     

  • KarahandrasKarahandras Member UncommonPosts: 1,703
    Originally posted by Rohn

    Originally posted by Yamota


    The neutral zone is just a queing system for PvP scenarios? Wow, sounds like another debacle to me.
    What was missing in CO was world PvP or atleast zone PvP but it seems like, again, Cryptic didnt get it and offered only PvP scenarios, even in the neutral zone.
    Lame.



     

    Perhaps a "debacle" (lol) for some.  Everyone's got an opinion.

    To me, that's what it comes down to - opinion and taste.  Every game's PvP is going to be "lame" to someone.  What I've found is that the implementation is more important than the general focus or type of PvP each game has.

    Instanced PvP is lame to some - sterile, contrived, "fair", removed from the world.  Open world PvP can be just as lame - susceptible to the zerg, griefing, gate-camping, population dependent.

    I think I'll wait until I've played it, and experience Cryptic's take on PvP, before whipping out the hyperbole.

    also don't forget this is monster play pvp so likely to be very unbalanced and capped at 10v10 i think it was

  • SuraknarSuraknar Member UncommonPosts: 852

    Overall, this feels like a mainstream (insert WoW) player's review.

    But thanks anyways, I'll reserve conclusions to my own judgement when the game come out.

     

    - Duke Suraknar -
    Order of the Silver Star, OSS

    ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
  • re: "Federation doesn't use money."

    Keep in mind this was said back in the sixties where credit cards weren't as wide-spread as they are now.

    It would be more accurate to say "The Federation doesn't use HARD CASH".  The Federation probably does use a means of exchange like a "credit" (which has been mentioned fleetingly in odd TOS episodes) to trade for goods and services, however it's all computerized using biometrics (DNA) as identification.  That's why you had the "Still using money"-line from Star Trek IV, the Bird-of-prey didn't have a replicator which could make any money.

    However that exchange system is offset by replicators and effectively unlimited energy generation (solar, fusion, etc) so on a "developed" world like 23rd-24th century Earth you probably had a much lower cost of living.  They also mentioned that's it's relatively easy to tell is something's replicated or not, so there's probably a premium and a desire for non-replicated things/food.  Private ownership also still exists otherwise Picard's family wouldn't have owned a Vineyard, Sisko's father wouldn't have owned a resturant in New Orleans.  The Ferengi's economy was based on Gold pres Latinium, Latinium couldn't be replicated but it's normally a liquid unless it's bonded to gold, while gold had become worthless in the Galactic Economy.

    You also World War III where you had a breakdown of worldwide order and human civilization had to rebuid itself so you had that shared trauma and a desire not to repeat the same mistakes.  That's partly why you don't have rapacious human corporations in Star Trek.  I think the "system" broke so badly that when they rebuilt Earth they abandoned ideas that people believed in only because they had insititutional inertia not because they were "good" ideas.

    So there probably still is a capitalist economy, but it's like trying to explain ATMs and Debit cards to someone from the 1950s or 1960s.  It's probably more managed at least within the Federation, or at least if there's an economy to be crashed it's not going to affect people's homes or jobs on a wide scale like the recession is now.

  • unicorngtmunicorngtm Member UncommonPosts: 22

    While artistically it's solid, the way Cryptic has chosen to roll out new elements is the biggest issue. Star Trek Online is not exactly a simple game, but there is no slow reveal in this one. Skills are tossed at you left and right with only moderate explanation of what they are. There is no sorting, lots of confusion and a lack of feedback on whether what you just spent your 100 points on actually did anything. Sometimes I'd think I spent my skills only to realize 20 minutes later that it didn't take or that I'd tossed them into a skill that did something totally different than I thought.

    A lot of this can be solved through some careful reading, which might make it my own fault, but the average player is not going to sort through three paragraphs to figure out that yes, that skill does make your phasers pack more punch.

    The team did a good job of the balance between immersive quest text and walls of chat spew. You can get the feel and not read a book, but the same goals totally failed in skills. The skill names are often non-descript and unclear of whether they're even for space or ground, your crew or you.

    This sounds annoying. If I remember correctly older COX essentially spawned a "city of data" web site that gave all stats for the ability. If I can't "respect" abilities whenever I need to, then I want to know clearly and concisely exactly what the ability does, and not waste my game time/experience.

  • mythran7mythran7 Member Posts: 57

    So we fly to the neutral zone to fight in some meaningless instanced based PvP?? Whatever for? If we can just que up while we are doing PvE why would anyone ever go to these zones? Is there extra xp for winning them over the other scenarios? This seems to be a significant oversight. Is there any more information on how this works? Or is that for later reviews?

     

  • ScrogdogScrogdog Member Posts: 380
    Originally posted by Suraknar


    Overall, this feels like a mainstream (insert WoW) player's review.
    But thanks anyways, I'll reserve conclusions to my own judgement when the game come out.


     



     

    What??? You didn't pre-order?

    Why you barnicle ridden Canadian!

    Well, I'll show you. When I get to wear TOS uniforms and yell KAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHNNNNNN!!!!! Then we'll see how you feel!

    See you in game, my friend. :)

  • Vagrant_ZeroVagrant_Zero Member Posts: 1,190


    Originally posted by grandpagamer

    Originally posted by zaxxon23

    Originally posted by Robsolf

    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

    Originally posted by Phry 
     
    Your post reminded me of another of my questions.. but.. why do starships drop loot items ? 

    It's because it's an MMO standard. WoW in a Trek skin.

    Why is there an Auction House? Ranged Healing? Same answer.


     
    I was always under the impression that the Federation Military was pretty much socialistic.  I don't recall anyone ever having to pay anything for anything, and they have food synthesizers and whatnot.  Seems to me, since you have a military owned vessel, that you'd have to use some form of reputation as currency rather than... space bucks, to buy mods and new ships.

     
    Technically speaking all starfleet officers are paid a salary, although that is of course not necessary in the federation because they do not use currency.  The pay is for other societies, which do use money.  So Trek lore supports the use of money.  
     
    I couldn't quote you the exact reference of this but it was in a star trek official encyclopedia of some sort that I read about 10 years ago.  The fact that other societies use money is supported by the official canon primarily in the television series.  Considering other societies use currency as a medium of exchange, starfleet and other federation entities are required to use money to trade with other civilizations.  It's just the common civilians of the federation that have no need for money (at least for basic goods).  Any luxury you'd want to purchase wouldn't be given to you just because your society doesn't have currency.  It's just basically a form of socialism.

    That I did not know. I always assumed they just replicated currency for whatever society  they were dealing with. Good information.

    Money not printed by the nation in question is counterfeiting and if done enough would destroy the original nation's economy with runaway deflation of their currency.

    Imagine Russia printing American Dollars.

    Ya...

  • mrw0lfmrw0lf Member Posts: 2,269

    I was soooooooo looking forward to STO, I have gone out of my way to not read too much and get too many preconceptions. From all Dana's reviews I've only really read the conclusion.

    "While no specifics are yet out there, there is an "STO Store" in the UI, which will no doubt feature cosmetic items and "short cuts" for those who want to toss some real life coin on top of their fee."

    Just killed the game for me right there. It was the one and only thing that could have rpevented me from playing this game. Unbelievalbe, so sad now, I feel empty.

    -----
    “The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.”

  • KettringKettring Member UncommonPosts: 5

    In Star Trek currency cant be replicated as the standard currency for alpha quadrant is Latinum which a rare unreplicatable metal. Also there are multiple episodes that refer to the Federation Credit as the federations currency system. Also it should be pointed out that just because Starfleet officers have access to replicators the average citizen does not and they go to actual physical stores to get their goods. Watch DS9 sometime.

  • stevekr21stevekr21 Member Posts: 50

     Good review....just hope the game can last.

  • QualeQuale Member Posts: 105

    Game sounds bloody awful and I'm sad to say that there is not a single cell in my body that so much as stirs over this project. It gets sucked right into the void that is the painful transition between WoW and all the bodies orbiting it, and the next generation MMO's.

    Pardon all the puns.

     

    Kill a borg and loot it.

  • IAmMMOIAmMMO Member UncommonPosts: 1,462

      More you read and see of STO the more you see how they got a MMO on this IP together in 2 years. I got nothing but a sense of the CO foundation layout of the engine ( which STO uses too) having STO put on top of it.

     

     Cryptic really should have created a STO from the ground up here and taken the 4 to 5 years needed using some imagination and innovation.  You're just going feel every now and then when you play STO that you're playing CO reskin mod.

      Not this copy past code from CO to STO approach they're doing now resulting in a what seems to be mounting up to be a very mediocre MMO experience that has no real long term appeal to players because its so shallow. They're making all the same mistakes they made with CO because of forced unrealistic deadlines imposed by the suits of the company who are not gamers themselves.

  • CerionCerion Member Posts: 1,005
    Originally posted by Raithnor


    re: "Federation doesn't use money."
    Keep in mind this was said back in the sixties where credit cards weren't as wide-spread as they are now.
    It would be more accurate to say "The Federation doesn't use HARD CASH".  The Federation probably does use a means of exchange like a "credit" (which has been mentioned fleetingly in odd TOS episodes) to trade for goods and services, however it's all computerized using biometrics (DNA) as identification.  That's why you had the "Still using money"-line from Star Trek IV, the Bird-of-prey didn't have a replicator which could make any money.
    However that exchange system is offset by replicators and effectively unlimited energy generation (solar, fusion, etc) so on a "developed" world like 23rd-24th century Earth you probably had a much lower cost of living.  They also mentioned that's it's relatively easy to tell is something's replicated or not, so there's probably a premium and a desire for non-replicated things/food.  Private ownership also still exists otherwise Picard's family wouldn't have owned a Vineyard, Sisko's father wouldn't have owned a resturant in New Orleans.  The Ferengi's economy was based on Gold pres Latinium, Latinium couldn't be replicated but it's normally a liquid unless it's bonded to gold, while gold had become worthless in the Galactic Economy.
    You also World War III where you had a breakdown of worldwide order and human civilization had to rebuid itself so you had that shared trauma and a desire not to repeat the same mistakes.  That's partly why you don't have rapacious human corporations in Star Trek.  I think the "system" broke so badly that when they rebuilt Earth they abandoned ideas that people believed in only because they had insititutional inertia not because they were "good" ideas.
    So there probably still is a capitalist economy, but it's like trying to explain ATMs and Debit cards to someone from the 1950s or 1960s.  It's probably more managed at least within the Federation, or at least if there's an economy to be crashed it's not going to affect people's homes or jobs on a wide scale like the recession is now.

    This is a great overview of the Star Trek paradigm.  One should keep in mind that Star Trek is science fiction in the Utopian sense. Many aspects represent ideals.  With that in mind, the philosophy of socialism fits nicely:  From each according to his ability, to each according to his deeds.  (compare this to a communist philosophy of: From each according to his abiliy, to each according to his needs.)    In Star Trek, there is a wholesale rejection, by society, of materialism in the most base sense of the word. People find what they're good at and excel at that -- society rewards them to the extent of their deeds. This is most transparent in the TNG episode "Tapestry." Because Piccard, given a second chance to relive his life by Q, isn't quite good enough, he lives out his secondary life as an Astrophysics officer.

    In this sense too, Star Trek is sort of an idealized Meritocracy. 

     

    _____________________________
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    Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.

    Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/

  • thexratedthexrated Member UncommonPosts: 1,368
    Originally posted by Raithnor


    re: "Federation doesn't use money."
    Keep in mind this was said back in the sixties where credit cards weren't as wide-spread as they are now.
    It would be more accurate to say "The Federation doesn't use HARD CASH".  The Federation probably does use a means of exchange like a "credit" (which has been mentioned fleetingly in odd TOS episodes) to trade for goods and services, however it's all computerized using biometrics (DNA) as identification.  That's why you had the "Still using money"-line from Star Trek IV, the Bird-of-prey didn't have a replicator which could make any money.
    However that exchange system is offset by replicators and effectively unlimited energy generation (solar, fusion, etc) so on a "developed" world like 23rd-24th century Earth you probably had a much lower cost of living.  They also mentioned that's it's relatively easy to tell is something's replicated or not, so there's probably a premium and a desire for non-replicated things/food.  Private ownership also still exists otherwise Picard's family wouldn't have owned a Vineyard, Sisko's father wouldn't have owned a resturant in New Orleans.  The Ferengi's economy was based on Gold pres Latinium, Latinium couldn't be replicated but it's normally a liquid unless it's bonded to gold, while gold had become worthless in the Galactic Economy.
    You also World War III where you had a breakdown of worldwide order and human civilization had to rebuid itself so you had that shared trauma and a desire not to repeat the same mistakes.  That's partly why you don't have rapacious human corporations in Star Trek.  I think the "system" broke so badly that when they rebuilt Earth they abandoned ideas that people believed in only because they had insititutional inertia not because they were "good" ideas.
    So there probably still is a capitalist economy, but it's like trying to explain ATMs and Debit cards to someone from the 1950s or 1960s.  It's probably more managed at least within the Federation, or at least if there's an economy to be crashed it's not going to affect people's homes or jobs on a wide scale like the recession is now.

     

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_credit

    "The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."

  • YamotaYamota Member UncommonPosts: 6,593
    Originally posted by Rohn

    Originally posted by Yamota


    The neutral zone is just a queing system for PvP scenarios? Wow, sounds like another debacle to me.
    What was missing in CO was world PvP or atleast zone PvP but it seems like, again, Cryptic didnt get it and offered only PvP scenarios, even in the neutral zone.
    Lame.



     

    Perhaps a "debacle" (lol) for some.  Everyone's got an opinion.

    To me, that's what it comes down to - opinion and taste.  Every game's PvP is going to be "lame" to someone.  What I've found is that the implementation is more important than the general focus or type of PvP each game has.

    Instanced PvP is lame to some - sterile, contrived, "fair", removed from the world.  Open world PvP can be just as lame - susceptible to the zerg, griefing, gate-camping, population dependent.

    I think I'll wait until I've played it, and experience Cryptic's take on PvP, before whipping out the hyperbole.

    I have nothing against instanced PvP scenarios, they are a welcome addition and games like Eve could use it, however to ONLY have instanced PvP scenarios and not offer anything else (even in the so called neutral zone) is lame and a cop out to the Star Trek lore.

    Even the reviewer noted how lame it is for Klingon and Fed players to chill out in the neutral zone and wait in line to start a scenario.

    But that is Cryptic for you, they are the equivalent of fast food joints in MMORPGs. They seem incapable of creating anything with any kind of depth and complexity.

  • MMO_DoubterMMO_Doubter Member Posts: 5,056
    Originally posted by Lanthir 
     
    you destoyed a ship that does not mean there is not wreckage floating about from it you can use

    How often did that happen on a Trek show? Salvaging from a friendly ship, yeah . Don't remember a lot of that from enemy ships.

    "" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2

  • aurickaurick Member Posts: 317

     The article states that they have a month to finish patching the game up to a launch state.  That's not true.  The game may be a month from launch, but they're using the now common preorder-for-open-beta system.  Since open beta begins on January 12, they really have just under two weeks to get this game ship shape.  (Sorry for the double pun, but it was too good to resist.)

    It sounds more and more like Cryptic will see a pretty significant number of canceled preorders out of this game as players get into the open beta and decide to jump ship rather than buy it.

    image
    image
  • wootinwootin Member Posts: 259

    Thanks for the reviews Dana! This is the best preview of a game one could have.

  • LaterisLateris Member UncommonPosts: 1,766

    I want to like STO. I love beaming down to a planet and then heading back to space.  I have to look at how fast they put this together since they bought the rights to the game from Perpetual as quite a feat. But at this point  I will silently root for your studio and wish you the best over at STO.  

  • LektronikLektronik Member Posts: 28
    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

    Originally posted by Lanthir 
     
    you destoyed a ship that does not mean there is not wreckage floating about from it you can use

    How often did that happen on a Trek show? Salvaging from a friendly ship, yeah . Don't remember a lot of that from enemy ships.

     

    Arguing against common sense is futile.  Don't you have a funeral to attend??

  • Christopher8Christopher8 Member Posts: 134

    PvP is accessed in two ways. There are global queues in the UI where you simply pick the scenarios you want to wait in line for and a pop-up window beams you in as soon as one kicks off. The second way is through the map itself. Players can fly to the neutral zone and go to sectors on the map that throw them in line for the queue in question.

    This is reason enough to delay the game, this is the most god awful excuse for player versus player I have ever read, especially in terms of a space MMO and Star Trek to boot.

  • LektronikLektronik Member Posts: 28
    Originally posted by Christopher8


    PvP is accessed in two ways. There are global queues in the UI where you simply pick the scenarios you want to wait in line for and a pop-up window beams you in as soon as one kicks off. The second way is through the map itself. Players can fly to the neutral zone and go to sectors on the map that throw them in line for the queue in question.
    This is reason enough to delay the game, this is the most god awful excuse for player versus player I have ever read, especially in terms of a space MMO and Star Trek to boot.

     

     

    Really?  It sounds like a "battlegrounds" or "capture the flag" type pvp setup where you can sign up into a queue to join.  The only difference is roleplayers have an option now to travel to the neutral zone instead of opening a menu.  Sounds nice to me.

    And last I checked, battlegrounds/capture-the-flag/scenario type pvp areas are very popular.  So what's the "god awful excuse"?

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