I'm going in like every other mmo I try, i'm looking to have fun. The game has potential in my eyes anyways.
I agree with you. Unlike most MMOs that I anxiously await I am not following STO detail by detail as it gets released. I feel like I will have a better assessment of the game if I just go into it without reading all the hype, gossip, and rumors. I will try it and if it feels like a smooth game with enough content to keep me occupied I will likely play for a long time.
Personally I don't see the virtue in spending money mostly blindly. One should try to make a purchasing decision as reasonably informed as possible. If you have trouble telling how good a game is by previews, reviews, first-hand accounts, gameplay footage, possibly open beta, and other sources then rather than ignore all that information you should change how you process it.
In my mind, given how Cryptic bungled Champions Online only months ago and how STO was also made in an extremely short amount of time, that is cause for caution regarding buying this game. Given that even some people somewhat positive about the game (Dana for instance) have a large list of flaws in it and have even questioned whether it can be ready in time for release*, I think that is even more reason for caution. Adding the needless IP breaking and incomplete Klingon faction, and I see no reason to buy this game blindly when it comes out. There are other reasons for concern as well. The wiser course is to wait and reevaluate a few months after release (note that such a principle would have worked well for Champions Online, and heck if it works like CO you'd even have plenty of free weekends to try out the game).
*Dana implied this at the beginning of the first part of his preview, though admittedly he didn't go into depth as to why he felt this way.
1. Who said anything about going into it blindly? He didn't say he was ignoring all information. He is just choosing which information he wants to read about. The game has bugs, there is no doubt about it, especially if you read any of the articles that talk about STO. That doesn't mean you shouldn't buy it. You are choosing not to buy it at launch which is well within your rights. You feel the game is not ready for release and your not willing to spend money on something you don't feel is ready to be played. No problem there.
2. What I find strange is that you seem to be trying to convince others not to buy this game at launch and I just can't figure out why. Are you really that concerned about how others spend their money and are trying to keep them from making a mistake or do you have some hidden agenda here to try and kill the game before it launches?
I am pretty sure that by now, most folks who even vaguely follow STO knows that it has many issues that it needs to fix. With that said, many of these folks are willing to give it a go anyway, including myself, Heck I even bought the CE version and I believe it may either be the first or possibly second time I have ever done that. I vaguely remember buying another mmo and it might have been a deluxe version but its been so long ago, I can't remember what it was.
3. I just can't help the feeling that I have that you really don't want this game to release as is and if it is going to, that your going to try your best to ruin it for everyone including cryptic. I can understand you being upset that the game isn't turning out the way you want it,
4. I can understand you not wanting to buy it in its current state, I don't understand why you seem to against it though. I say this as a person who hates SONY with a passion, yet I will not go onto a message board of one of their games and downplay the game or the company at all. My stand is firm, until sony gets rid of a certain person in their games division, I simply will not buy any more of their games. If STO had been in their hands, I simply wouldn't buy it, but I wouldn't be trying to encourage others not to buy it, nor would I be on the message boards slamming their game. But hey, thats just me. I feel everyone has the right to choose freely if they want something or not, regardless of who is making it or even what it is.
1. Hmm, where to begin? He only talked about ignoring information, he didn't talk about anything he was paying attention to, so I made my post focus on the idea of not paying attention to the details about a game and just buying it anyway (e.g. buying it blindly, though if you want to consider that half-blind or whatever, then feel free). Maybe the person I quoted was paying attention to more than he let on, but he didn't seem to be saying he was and I didn't find any other posts where he talked about it. Even so, that doesn't really change the point I was trying to make which was more generalized.
2. Btw, if I feel like I want to share my reasoning about why I am not buying the game, that's certainly my choice and a perfectly fine thing to do. The same is true for anyone who wants to talk about why they are buying the game. I will say I do feel that the fact we Trekkers buy any Trek game that comes out is a contributing factor to most Trek games being bad -- there's just not a lot of financial incentive to making sure such games are good. STO looks like it will be yet another example of this phenomenon. So yeah, I feel like sharing that reasoning and opinion with other people. If you have a problem with that opinion, then that's fine, but it is rather silly to have a problem with someone expressing that opinion. Anyhow, this is hardly a "hidden agenda" as I've been pretty vocal about all of this before (and even in this thread).
3. Yeah, that's such an odd "feeling" for you to have. I'm pretty sure I've stated the game looks like it needs another year or two of development. Others have stated this as well, btw. I also want quality Trek games where the proper time is taken to make them. This "feeling" that I don't want to have the game release "as is" is in fact something I've explicitly said more than once. The only thing that causes me puzzlement over this is the fact you seem to be following my posts to some extent, and yet you act like I'm doing something cloak and dagger when I've been upfront and clear about my feelings, opinions, reasonings, and desires from the get-go (including how I was originally looking forward to this game months ago).
As for the idea I am trying to "ruin it for everyone"...I'm told I have a bit of an ego, but seriously, I am NOT THAT INFLUENTIAL. The idea I could single-handedly "ruin" a game by apparently influencing a couple hundred thousand people is ludicrous. At best I might convince a few dozen people, but I don't find that very likely...a handful is more likely. Anyhow, if the game is "ruined" (which I largely expect...though I don't expect it to necessarily be ruined to the point of folding) it will be Cryptic's doing, not mine. Now, I do enjoy talking about ideas, and like most people I like a nice rant on something that looks terrible, but if my reasoning and opinions ruin the game forever for anyone, then I'd propose it wasn't me that ruined it, but rather the game itself that was flawed. Anyhow, thank you for the amusing idea that I am "trying to kill the game"...it entertained me quite a bit.
4. I don't like bad Star Trek games. The fact it looks bad is why I won't buy it AND why I am against the current state of the game as well as the fairly limited initial design of it. As for going on message boards, I visit boards of some sites from time to time. MMORPG is one of them, and this isn't the only board on here I am active in. I certainly wouldn't waste my time on the STO boards.
The game has bugs, there is no doubt about it, especially if you read any of the articles that talk about STO. That doesn't mean you shouldn't buy it.
Yes that is EXACTLY what it means. Do you normally make it a habit of buying products that are unfinished, broken and not working the way they should/could?
What I find strange is that you seem to be trying to convince others not to buy this game at launch and I just can't figure out why.
Are you really that obtuse?
Maybe its because that the more people that keep buying games that are buggy and not ready for release, the more Game Companies will keep releasing games that are buggy and not ready for release.
Game Company Exec 1- "Ok the game is set to release on XX-YY-ZZZZ, but it still has alot of issues. Should we still release it or push it back and continue to work on it until its ready?"
Game Company Exec 2- "Why delay? Release it! People will buy it no matter what. We will worry about fixing those issues at a later date. Right now we need to get it on the market so we can start making some $$$."
See right there is the problem. We keep buying their crap, they will keep making and releasing crap.
Its been 10+ years and until the Game Player Community says NO MORE we will continue to keep getting crap like this.
If just ONE (1) game was released buggy and unfinished and gamers (as a whole) didnt buy it I will bet that any Game Company that wanted to make a MMO would seriously think twice about the finished quality of their product. If we just stopped buying these crappy unfinished buggy pieces of garbage we would probably start to see less crappy unfinished buggy pieces of garbage.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
I'm going in like every other mmo I try, i'm looking to have fun. The game has potential in my eyes anyways.
I agree with you. Unlike most MMOs that I anxiously await I am not following STO detail by detail as it gets released. I feel like I will have a better assessment of the game if I just go into it without reading all the hype, gossip, and rumors. I will try it and if it feels like a smooth game with enough content to keep me occupied I will likely play for a long time.
Personally I don't see the virtue in spending money mostly blindly. One should try to make a purchasing decision as reasonably informed as possible. If you have trouble telling how good a game is by previews, reviews, first-hand accounts, gameplay footage, possibly open beta, and other sources then rather than ignore all that information you should change how you process it.
In my mind, given how Cryptic bungled Champions Online only months ago and how STO was also made in an extremely short amount of time, that is cause for caution regarding buying this game. Given that even some people somewhat positive about the game (Dana for instance) have a large list of flaws in it and have even questioned whether it can be ready in time for release*, I think that is even more reason for caution. Adding the needless IP breaking and incomplete Klingon faction, and I see no reason to buy this game blindly when it comes out. There are other reasons for concern as well. The wiser course is to wait and reevaluate a few months after release (note that such a principle would have worked well for Champions Online, and heck if it works like CO you'd even have plenty of free weekends to try out the game).
*Dana implied this at the beginning of the first part of his preview, though admittedly he didn't go into depth as to why he felt this way.
1. Who said anything about going into it blindly? He didn't say he was ignoring all information. He is just choosing which information he wants to read about. The game has bugs, there is no doubt about it, especially if you read any of the articles that talk about STO. That doesn't mean you shouldn't buy it. You are choosing not to buy it at launch which is well within your rights. You feel the game is not ready for release and your not willing to spend money on something you don't feel is ready to be played. No problem there.
2. What I find strange is that you seem to be trying to convince others not to buy this game at launch and I just can't figure out why. Are you really that concerned about how others spend their money and are trying to keep them from making a mistake or do you have some hidden agenda here to try and kill the game before it launches?
I am pretty sure that by now, most folks who even vaguely follow STO knows that it has many issues that it needs to fix. With that said, many of these folks are willing to give it a go anyway, including myself, Heck I even bought the CE version and I believe it may either be the first or possibly second time I have ever done that. I vaguely remember buying another mmo and it might have been a deluxe version but its been so long ago, I can't remember what it was.
3. I just can't help the feeling that I have that you really don't want this game to release as is and if it is going to, that your going to try your best to ruin it for everyone including cryptic. I can understand you being upset that the game isn't turning out the way you want it,
4. I can understand you not wanting to buy it in its current state, I don't understand why you seem to against it though. I say this as a person who hates SONY with a passion, yet I will not go onto a message board of one of their games and downplay the game or the company at all. My stand is firm, until sony gets rid of a certain person in their games division, I simply will not buy any more of their games. If STO had been in their hands, I simply wouldn't buy it, but I wouldn't be trying to encourage others not to buy it, nor would I be on the message boards slamming their game. But hey, thats just me. I feel everyone has the right to choose freely if they want something or not, regardless of who is making it or even what it is.
1. Hmm, where to begin? He only talked about ignoring information, he didn't talk about anything he was paying attention to, so I made my post focus on the idea of not paying attention to the details about a game and just buying it anyway (e.g. buying it blindly, though if you want to consider that half-blind or whatever, then feel free). Maybe the person I quoted was paying attention to more than he let on, but he didn't seem to be saying he was and I didn't find any other posts where he talked about it. Even so, that doesn't really change the point I was trying to make which was more generalized.
1A) You might want to generalize your generalizations more then. Seemed, not so generalized to me.
2. Btw, if I feel like I want to share my reasoning about why I am not buying the game, that's certainly my choice and a perfectly fine thing to do. The same is true for anyone who wants to talk about why they are buying the game. I will say I do feel that the fact we Trekkers buy any Trek game that comes out is a contributing factor to most Trek games being bad -- there's just not a lot of financial incentive to making sure such games are good. STO looks like it will be yet another example of this phenomenon. So yeah, I feel like sharing that reasoning and opinion with other people. If you have a problem with that opinion, then that's fine, but it is rather silly to have a problem with someone expressing that opinion. Anyhow, this is hardly a "hidden agenda" as I've been pretty vocal about all of this before (and even in this thread).
2A) Your opinion would be that you dont like the game, this is why, Im not going to buy it. When you cross that line to telling others that they should reconsider their decisions then thats no longer your opinion.
3. Yeah, that's such an odd "feeling" for you to have. I'm pretty sure I've stated the game looks like it needs another year or two of development. Others have stated this as well, btw. I also want quality Trek games where the proper time is taken to make them. This "feeling" that I don't want to have the game release "as is" is in fact something I've explicitly said more than once. The only thing that causes me puzzlement over this is the fact you seem to be following my posts to some extent, and yet you act like I'm doing something cloak and dagger when I've been upfront and clear about my feelings, opinions, reasonings, and desires from the get-go (including how I was originally looking forward to this game months ago).
3A) Yes many others have stated that it could use more development, Im not denying that. As a matter of fact, I have said many things to many of them to
As for wanting a quality trek game, I am pretty sure we all would like that. The point I am making is regardless of your feelings, the game IS releasing. Maybe you should realize that and accept the game for the way its going to start, because it is obviously not waiting on you to give the approval for it.
Well, I am following this thread because *I* started this thread. I follow several other threads. It just so happens that our opinions seem to conflict with each other a lot. I been looking forward to this game since it was first announced by Perpetual. Oddly though, I am still looking forward to this game where as you are not.
As for the idea I am trying to "ruin it for everyone"...I'm told I have a bit of an ego, but seriously, I am NOT THAT INFLUENTIAL. The idea I could single-handedly "ruin" a game by apparently influencing a couple hundred thousand people is ludicrous. At best I might convince a few dozen people, but I don't find that very likely...a handful is more likely. Anyhow, if the game is "ruined" (which I largely expect...though I don't expect it to necessarily be ruined to the point of folding) it will be Cryptic's doing, not mine. Now, I do enjoy talking about ideas, and like most people I like a nice rant on something that looks terrible, but if my reasoning and opinions ruin the game forever for anyone, then I'd propose it wasn't me that ruined it, but rather the game itself that was flawed. Anyhow, thank you for the amusing idea that I am "trying to kill the game"...it entertained me quite a bit.
4. I don't like bad Star Trek games. The fact it looks bad is why I won't buy it AND why I am against the current state of the game as well as the fairly limited initial design of it. As for going on message boards, I visit boards of some sites from time to time. MMORPG is one of them, and this isn't the only board on here I am active in. I certainly wouldn't waste my time on the STO boards.
4A) I never said you were that influential, I said you seemed to be trying very hard, which you sure have been. You are not the only one either. Some others feel this game is doomed. They are more obvious about how they say it though.
I don't like bad games in general, Not just ST. I dont see the game looking bad at all. I see the game may have some bug problems but overall the game, from what I have seen, Looks freaking awesome! Ok, maybe not the ground so much, but I am sure that will get better at some point. So please, since you feel this game is so bad, explain it even more.
I look at the game and think, ok space, looks awesome. Not to happy about how the ships are controlled (wasd keys) but oh well. Ground, looks good, not to happy about the characters movements, but those are both my opinions. Klingons, PVP faction, hrmm. Couldn't get them fully implemented by the time the game released. Well, Great freaking idea though, to make them a sole pvp faction. At LEAST they are there and people will get to play them at the start. The ships look good to me, the special effects look pretty darn good, what I have seen of the UI is kinda blah. The episodes as they call them sound to be very well though out and implemented. Yes there will be bugs, but that is expected in anything that is huge like this.
There. I have stated both good and bad about the game so far and the reasons I am going to play it. All I have heard from you is bad and that your not. Why so negative? Why can't you be happy for the ones that are happy to see it release.
I just hope it succeeds and turns out to be as expected of star trek IP. alot of people are saying it will fail. but as we know this is assumption from videos. in fact i hear alot of positive from the in closed beta. i have learned to ignore people's comments before open beta or even launch. warhammer online an AoC both where said to be the next big thing and push WoW aside now all we here is it's dying servers will shut down blah blah. i look foward to open beta because then players opinion will hold more fact.
The game has bugs, there is no doubt about it, especially if you read any of the articles that talk about STO. That doesn't mean you shouldn't buy it.
Yes that is EXACTLY what it means. Do you normally make it a habit of buying products that are unfinished, broken and not working the way they should/could?
You obviously have never programmed. There is and has never been a single program sold that didnt have some kind of bug in it. An MMO is NEVER finished. If they were, then it certainly wouldn't last very long. Oh, so something that isn't working the way YOU want it to is obviously broken? And you think thats perfectly acceptable? Please....
What I find strange is that you seem to be trying to convince others not to buy this game at launch and I just can't figure out why.
Are you really that obtuse?
Maybe its because that the more people that keep buying games that are buggy and not ready for release, the more Game Companies will keep releasing games that are buggy and not ready for release.
Game Company Exec 1- "Ok the game is set to release on XX-YY-ZZZZ, but it still has alot of issues. Should we still release it or push it back and continue to work on it until its ready?"
Game Company Exec 2- "Why delay? Release it! People will buy it no matter what. We will worry about fixing those issues at a later date. Right now we need to get it on the market so we can start making some $$$."
See right there is the problem. We keep buying their crap, they will keep making and releasing crap.
Its been 10+ years and until the Game Player Community says NO MORE we will continue to keep getting crap like this.
If just ONE (1) game was released buggy and unfinished and gamers (as a whole) didnt buy it I will bet that any Game Company that wanted to make a MMO would seriously think twice about the finished quality of their product. If we just stopped buying these crappy unfinished buggy pieces of garbage we would probably start to see less crappy unfinished buggy pieces of garbage.
Again, I think you are showing your ignorance on programming and business. We are talking millions of lines of code here, not your basic hello world pop up box. People are the ones required to find bugs. There is no way of getting around it. Let me give you an example. I ran a BBS many years ago. A friend of mine wrote an addin for me for my BBS software that would allow people to deposit some of their time remaining so that if they needed more time on another day, they could take some of it out and remain online while they finished what they were doing. I saw my friends code. It was not very complex but at the time, it was way beyond me at what he was doing. Anyhow, we found out there was a bug in it. You know how we found out? I caught someone cheating the time bank. They found if they inputted a negative number that it actually gave positive time. It was something that him nor I would have ever thought about doing. It never crossed our minds that anyone would even try that. Now, take that exact same scenario and multiply it by millions and then add hundreds and thousands of people who will try anything and everything imaginable. Thats how bugs are found. Then it takes serious time going through code to find out how that is happening in the first place.
As for your execs. Sure it might be that way. Consider that most MMO's even if it is 5 years in the making, are losing MILLIONS of dollars on this while it is happening. At some point, you just can't wait any longer and have to release, bugs or no bugs. Content or less content. Lets not forget the investors that have put in their money on the projects. They could be getting pressure from so many sides that they have no choice. And again, Unfinished in an MMO is an MMO. They are never finished until they close the doors on them.
When you cross that line to telling others that they should reconsider their decisions then thats no longer your opinion.
You're wrong. It's still an opinion. If my opinion also includes a recommendation, then that's just how it goes, but it certainly doesn't change the fact it is still an opinion.
As for the other thing about accepting the fact the game is being released as-is, I've already done that. That's part of why I think it is going to suck and that it is a waste of money; yet another rushed game that is going to come out with too many problems to bother with and will bleed customers.
When you cross that line to telling others that they should reconsider their decisions then thats no longer your opinion.
You're wrong. It's still an opinion. If my opinion also includes a recommendation, then that's just how it goes, but it certainly doesn't change the fact it is still an opinion.
As for the other thing about accepting the fact the game is being released as-is, I've already done that. That's part of why I think it is going to suck and that it is a waste of money; yet another rushed game that is going to come out with too many problems to bother with and will bleed customers.
Well, from my side, it doesn't look like your just expressing your opinion, it appears that you are trying to get a revolt against the game. Not just you, but others on here as well. Now, what about my other question of why can't you be happy for others that want to try the game? If you have accepted the game as is, and think its going to suck and your not going to get it, then why continue the negative campaign? Why not simply quit following the game?
When you cross that line to telling others that they should reconsider their decisions then thats no longer your opinion.
You're wrong. It's still an opinion. If my opinion also includes a recommendation, then that's just how it goes, but it certainly doesn't change the fact it is still an opinion.
As for the other thing about accepting the fact the game is being released as-is, I've already done that. That's part of why I think it is going to suck and that it is a waste of money; yet another rushed game that is going to come out with too many problems to bother with and will bleed customers.
Well, from my side, it doesn't look like your just expressing your opinion, it appears that you are trying to get a revolt against the game. Not just you, but others on here as well. Now, what about my other question of why can't you be happy for others that want to try the game? If you have accepted the game as is, and think its going to suck and your not going to get it, then why continue the negative campaign? Why not simply quit following the game?
Well, from my side, it doesn't look like you're just expressing your opinion, it appears that you are trying to get a cult for the game. Not just you, but others on here as well. Now, what about my other quest of why can't you be happy for others that don't like the game? If you have accepted the game as is, and think it is going to be great and you're going to get it, then why continue the positive campaign? Why not simply quit following the forums?
Hmm, yup, seems just as silly a statement either way.
i agree with doom. if it's opinion you would have stated it once and left at that but you keep at it. why you hate a game thats in closed beta is beyond me. but if it is opinion then thats cool and stop the fighting . but if your goal IS to change peoples view of game 99.99% of the world has not gotten there hands on then you should be ashamed and needs to stop.
i agree with doom. if it's opinion you would have stated it once and left at that but you keep at it. why you hate a game thats in closed beta is beyond me. but if it is opinion then thats cool and stop the fighting . but if your goal IS to change peoples view of game 99.99% of the world has not gotten there hands on then you should be ashamed and needs to stop.
At the risk of derailing this thread further (though all this is tangentially related to the topic, I suppose), why do you think any of that? What's your reasoning that makes you think people only express their opinion once and then vanish into the night or that one should feel ashamed for voicing their opinion and their reasoning that backs it up in the belief that the merits should be debated and discussed? Is this some sort of anti-intellectualism, a rejection of people that don't follow what you consider the groupthink, or something else?
It doesn't seem like you are saying that people shouldn't change other people's opinions in general though. If you are, then you are being inconsistent with the application of that credo, since you are clearly trying to change my opinion about how I should express my opinions. Then again, you have an odd definition of "opinion" that I don't quite follow, since apparently the term for you is only confined to things people don't care much about. Anyhow, care to elaborate on your thinking here?
When you cross that line to telling others that they should reconsider their decisions then thats no longer your opinion.
You're wrong. It's still an opinion. If my opinion also includes a recommendation, then that's just how it goes, but it certainly doesn't change the fact it is still an opinion.
As for the other thing about accepting the fact the game is being released as-is, I've already done that. That's part of why I think it is going to suck and that it is a waste of money; yet another rushed game that is going to come out with too many problems to bother with and will bleed customers.
Well, from my side, it doesn't look like your just expressing your opinion, it appears that you are trying to get a revolt against the game. Not just you, but others on here as well. Now, what about my other question of why can't you be happy for others that want to try the game? If you have accepted the game as is, and think its going to suck and your not going to get it, then why continue the negative campaign? Why not simply quit following the game?
Well, from my side, it doesn't look like you're just expressing your opinion, it appears that you are trying to get a cult for the game. Not just you, but others on here as well. Now, what about my other quest of why can't you be happy for others that don't like the game? If you have accepted the game as is, and think it is going to be great and you're going to get it, then why continue the positive campaign? Why not simply quit following the forums?
Hmm, yup, seems just as silly a statement either way.
I have acknowledged that the game has faults. Yet, I am going to be playing the game. Thus why I keep posting on a forum, about a game, that I am going to play. I will also be posting after I start playing it as well. Thats what people do for a game that they are eager to play or are playing (and no, im not in the beta, that was generalized). We talk about the game, improvements we want to see, problems that will need fixed and so on. It is obvious by anyone who reads me threads that I am not launching a campaign about anything. I am simply looking forward to the game.
However, when someone isn't going to play a game and yet keeps harping on it and trying to persuade others not to play, that is a campaign. And for the record, I have never said the game is going to be great. I have no idea what its going to be like. I only hope that it is good.
See the difference here also, is that I have posted and do post occasionally on the regular STO forums. You have admitted that you don't even go to them. I mean, there, is where you should be spelling out your problems with the game. Instead, your here, not debating if the game is going to be good or not, you have already condemned it. Instead, your trying to get people to not play the game.
You can state opinion as long as many times as you want just don't force it down are thoat. pure and simple your opinion and most others on this board are assumption because only few dozen people in world of billions has access so fighting on this is pointless pure and simple end of story. theres difference to stating opinion and defending it and then theres trying to get everyone to look at YOUR view when your view or anyone else who hasn't played it yet has no idea what really to expect.
That it will sell well and then lose the majority of it's people after the first month or two.
STO will then l limp along like CO with Cryptic trying to continue to add things that should of been in and fixed before release.
Atari (Publisher) will make a nice profit and then move on looking for the next game to make money on.
Game Dev's (Ones that write the code) are not the ones that foster this shove it out the door and move on. It is the game publishers/directors that control the time frames and the cash that set these people up as the fall guys.
Not to let Cryptic people totally off the hook. They seem to really believe that they can put out a MMO in under 3 years development time. Well they can, just do not expect a good MMO.
Originally posted by DoomsDay01 I have acknowledged that the game has faults. Yet, I am going to be playing the game. Thus why I keep posting on a forum, about a game, that I am going to play. I will also be posting after I start playing it as well. Thats what people do for a game that they are eager to play or are playing (and no, im not in the beta, that was generalized). We talk about the game, improvements we want to see, problems that will need fixed and so on. It is obvious by anyone who reads me threads that I am not launching a campaign about anything. I am simply looking forward to the game. However, when someone isn't going to play a game and yet keeps harping on it and trying to persuade others not to play, that is a campaign. And for the record, I have never said the game is going to be great. I have no idea what its going to be like. I only hope that it is good. See the difference here also, is that I have posted and do post occasionally on the regular STO forums. You have admitted that you don't even go to them. I mean, there, is where you should be spelling out your problems with the game. Instead, your here, not debating if the game is going to be good or not, you have already condemned it. Instead, your trying to get people to not play the game.
I've acknowledged the game has good elements, just far too few and overall there are too many flaws. I'm disappointed in the game and it looks like yet another rushed game. This is a game I was looking forward to because it was Sci-Fi and I love the IP, yet like CO it looks like Cryptic is going to make another crappy game. I'm perfectly in my rights to discuss my disappointment with the game. If you can't handle me saying why I am disappointed, why I don't deem the game will be able to overcome the clear shortcomings even you see before release, and why that means one shouldn't buy the game (in my opinion), then you are free to block me. I'm not going to stop posting just because you don't like reading my posts and think I should exit the forums. I'm not launching a campaign about anything either, that's why my posts are confined to these boards. I obviously enjoy some of the discussion that goes on, and I participate in it. That's all. Yes, I think my conclusions are right and my attitude is the correct one, but really, who doesn't? I could argue just as readily you are involved in a campaign to get people to buy the game no matter what flaws it has, but I don't think it is any more accurate than your characterization of me.
I find it odd you don't think I should be posting here, yet you think I should go to the STO forums to post. It isn't like if I go there they'll listen and delay launch until the Klingons are done, or get the other 12 or so months of development time the game seems to need. The reality is the game is due to be released soon and the reality is also that no matter when in the last couple of months I signed up for the STO forums, that wasn't going to change. The game will be released overly buggy, unpolished (even Dana seems to think they probably won't get that together in time for launch), missing significant content, and if past games by Cryptic are anything to go by it will have big balance problems. I am perfectly willing to debate the merits of the game, and I am willing to change my position if the facts are against me. That doesn't seem likely to happen. Heck, you concede most of my points. You admit the game is buggy. You admit significant content isn't there (Klingon). I believe you've admitted the game is rushed. The only thing you deny is that all these problems mean the safer course of action is to wait and see what happens rather than hoping it is a good game despite looking like it won't be (as we have seen time and time again with other MMOs). Sorry, but I can't quite see the logic in that, especially giving how much of a disappointment Champions Online was only months ago. There's no reason to give Cryptic the benefit of the doubt here.
That said, if someone actually had facts or a good argument against the above, I'd be perfectly willing to change my mind. No one seems to though, other than saying "just buy it and try it out!" which is the root cause of why we have so many bad MMOs to begin with, people buy them anyways and I'm not going to be a party to that. No, I fully expect the game to be a massive disappointment, and I'm not going to buy it irrationally hoping it will somehow be good despite all the things it has going against it. I'll continue to state my opinion and position on here, and continue to discuss the fine points of the opinion I have formed. I'll probably take a break from this section of the MMO forums shortly after the release, but I'll check back after a few months to double-check my conclusions. I don't expect to be surprised by the results.
As to your thought that I should just shut up and go away (because that is what you are suggesting), I have to decline. Other people considering buying this game that visit the forums deserve a full spectrum of thought and opinion on it. I personally don't think Cryptic deserves to make money on the quickly manufactured crap MMOs they seem to want to make. I don't think we as gamers should support a business model that encourages crappy games to be made. If you think one person expressing their well thought-out opinion more than once on one board on the internet means they have a "campaign" then you are free to think that. That kind of definition means the vast majority of posters are campaigning though.
Even though i prefer creative Fantasy type games,i will probably try this game.My gut tells me this game will be very cheap,doing nothing more than scratch the surface with every idea they have in the game.However that is my preconception of the game.
My reason for this preconception?You can thank EVE for it.When other games stand back and see how successful Eve is for doing very little with the POTENTIAL of the game,other developers are going to think they can do the same and get away with it.As you can see MOST of the people awaiting STO DO want to be able to stand in their ship and land on planets,so this crowd is much more demanding than the EVE crowd.
I will go in open minded to any kind of creativity and enjoy anything that looks well thought out.If i enter and see nothing but cheap ideas,and shake my head at every option,it will be a short stay on my HD.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
That it will sell well and then lose the majority of it's people after the first month or two. STO will then l limp along like CO with Cryptic trying to continue to add things that should of been in and fixed before release. Atari (Publisher) will make a nice profit and then move on looking for the next game to make money on. Game Dev's (Ones that write the code) are not the ones that foster this shove it out the door and move on. It is the game publishers/directors that control the time frames and the cash that set these people up as the fall guys. Not to let Cryptic people totally off the hook. They seem to really believe that they can put out a MMO in under 3 years development time. Well they can, just do not expect a good MMO.
I can't say one way or another if CO was a flop. I tried the open beta and didnt like it, but not because of gameplay, I could not stand the graphics in that game, to me it was horrible. Not horrible in sense of it wasn't good. But horrible in that I did not like that style of art. Will STO be good? Who knows, I know it sure looks good so far but only time will tell.
I was browsing You Tube last night and found one that Jack was talking to some guys in an interview and was talking about klingons and fed play. When he got done, I was like, Ouch! he really stepped into it on that one. I think that is the exact reason companies don't want to give out information because if something doesn't make it in that they say is going to be there, people throw a complete temper tantrum. But we are the ones that cause this. Our demanding of more information forces these companies to speak out and then when something isn't like they say, its a lynch mob style retort.
I don't know how much time they had with COH, but I thought it was a lot of fun. I think they can make a good game, but I think that you can't expect it to have everything you want in it right from the start in that short amount of time. And that is a problem for a lot of folks, they want it all right now and are not willing to help the game evolve. Or, if it doesn't have everything they want, than its simply doomed to failure in their eyes.
Originally posted by DoomsDay01 I have acknowledged that the game has faults. Yet, I am going to be playing the game. Thus why I keep posting on a forum, about a game, that I am going to play. I will also be posting after I start playing it as well. Thats what people do for a game that they are eager to play or are playing (and no, im not in the beta, that was generalized). We talk about the game, improvements we want to see, problems that will need fixed and so on. It is obvious by anyone who reads me threads that I am not launching a campaign about anything. I am simply looking forward to the game. However, when someone isn't going to play a game and yet keeps harping on it and trying to persuade others not to play, that is a campaign. And for the record, I have never said the game is going to be great. I have no idea what its going to be like. I only hope that it is good. See the difference here also, is that I have posted and do post occasionally on the regular STO forums. You have admitted that you don't even go to them. I mean, there, is where you should be spelling out your problems with the game. Instead, your here, not debating if the game is going to be good or not, you have already condemned it. Instead, your trying to get people to not play the game.
I've acknowledged the game has good elements, just far too few and overall there are too many flaws. I'm disappointed in the game and it looks like yet another rushed game. This is a game I was looking forward to because it was Sci-Fi and I love the IP, yet like CO it looks like Cryptic is going to make another crappy game. I'm perfectly in my rights to discuss my disappointment with the game. If you can't handle me saying why I am disappointed, why I don't deem the game will be able to overcome the clear shortcomings even you see before release, and why that means one shouldn't buy the game (in my opinion), then you are free to block me. I'm not going to stop posting just because you don't like reading my posts and think I should exit the forums. I'm not launching a campaign about anything either, that's why my posts are confined to these boards. I obviously enjoy some of the discussion that goes on, and I participate in it. That's all. Yes, I think my conclusions are right and my attitude is the correct one, but really, who doesn't? I could argue just as readily you are involved in a campaign to get people to buy the game no matter what flaws it has, but I don't think it is any more accurate than your characterization of me.
Hey, I could be wrong about you. And if you want to spell your disappointment on here thats fine, but to suggest others not by the game is wrong. Let the people decide for themselves.
I find it odd you don't think I should be posting here, yet you think I should go to the STO forums to post. It isn't like if I go there they'll listen and delay launch until the Klingons are done, or get the other 12 or so months of development time the game seems to need. The reality is the game is due to be released soon and the reality is also that no matter when in the last couple of months I signed up for the STO forums, that wasn't going to change. The game will be released overly buggy, unpolished (even Dana seems to think they probably won't get that together in time for launch), missing significant content, and if past games by Cryptic are anything to go by it will have big balance problems. I am perfectly willing to debate the merits of the game, and I am willing to change my position if the facts are against me. That doesn't seem likely to happen. Heck, you concede most of my points. You admit the game is buggy. You admit significant content isn't there (Klingon). I believe you've admitted the game is rushed. The only thing you deny is that all these problems mean the safer course of action is to wait and see what happens rather than hoping it is a good game despite looking like it won't be (as we have seen time and time again with other MMOs). Sorry, but I can't quite see the logic in that, especially giving how much of a disappointment Champions Online was only months ago. There's no reason to give Cryptic the benefit of the doubt here.
Right there. Its to late for you to do anything about it. The game is launching as is. Maybe if more of you had been on their forums, they might not have been so quick to release. Then again, atari may be forcing it at a certain date and there just aint a darn thing that cryptic can do about it but comply.
I admit the game is buggy from the reviews I have read. Not to mention that there has never been a single mmo released that didnt have bugs. If I go by past interviews, I think they fully intended on having klingons in at launch with a similar setup that the federation has. Thats my opinion though, I could have simply read into what they were saying as something else. I don't particularly care about the klingons so that never really affected me any. The game being rushed is debatable. 2.5 years is a short amount of time to put out an MMO. Its not to say they can't do it, but I think in that time limit, they can't get everything they want to put into it without a significant boost in their employee numbers. Ok, so you say CO was a flop. Maybe it was, I dont know. I think COH was not a flop and they did a good job with it. So, in that context, one good, one bad, hey, maybe their next one according to this trend, will be good.
And No, I am not telling anyone they should or shouldn't buy the game. I said *I* was buying it and gave my reasons why. Is it a safer course of action to wait? Im sure it always is no matter what game comes out, if your that concerned that your not going to like it. I am not that worried though. I look at all games as a form of entertainment. Its just like going to see a bad movie, sometimes you get one you just don't like. So if a person wants to be on the cautious side, more power to them, I find no fault in wanting to wait.
That said, if someone actually had facts or a good argument against the above, I'd be perfectly willing to change my mind. No one seems to though, other than saying "just buy it and try it out!" which is the root cause of why we have so many bad MMOs to begin with, people buy them anyways and I'm not going to be a party to that. No, I fully expect the game to be a massive disappointment, and I'm not going to buy it irrationally hoping it will somehow be good despite all the things it has going against it. I'll continue to state my opinion and position on here, and continue to discuss the fine points of the opinion I have formed. I'll probably take a break from this section of the MMO forums shortly after the release, but I'll check back after a few months to double-check my conclusions. I don't expect to be surprised by the results.
Thats because there are no facts yet because the game has not been released. And those that are in beta are under an NDA that keeps them from stating facts. And contrary to popular belief, just buy it and try it is not the root cause of bad video games. All video games has followings that like them. Just some have much less than others. You want to know what I told one of my friends the very first time I heard about ST being developed by perpetual? The very first thing out of my mouth was, If I fire a phaser and I see that it only does X amount of damage to someone, I am going to break that cd into a billion pieces and probably throw my computer out the window in disgust. Why? because thats not normally how a battle goes in ST. Its usually a one shot hit and either stun or kill. Sometimes there is a graze but usually only to the people that is vital to the show. Now, with that being said, I realized that this is an MMO and thus there was going to have to be many concessions like that in order to make the game play more fun. Some people just cant see that many things in ST can not be translated into an MMO and it still be fun.
Let me add this. If you go into a game expecting it to be shit, it will be shit, no matter if the game is actually good or not. That attitude will nitpick at every little detail till it finds enough little things that makes you /ragequit. I really hope though, that when you come back after a couple months, that you see there are people loving the game. But even then, with that attitude, you probably still wont like it.
As to your thought that I should just shut up and go away (because that is what you are suggesting), I have to decline. Other people considering buying this game that visit the forums deserve a full spectrum of thought and opinion on it. I personally don't think Cryptic deserves to make money on the quickly manufactured crap MMOs they seem to want to make. I don't think we as gamers should support a business model that encourages crappy games to be made. If you think one person expressing their well thought-out opinion more than once on one board on the internet means they have a "campaign" then you are free to think that. That kind of definition means the vast majority of posters are campaigning though.
No, I don't think you should shut up and go away. I think you should continue to debate your point of view without trying to influence others one way or another. The only problem with this is that nobody can really refute much of what you say because we aren't in the game to be able to refute your conjecture. See, here is the problem with naysayers. They can complain about every little thing, doom the game, doom the company, and do it all by speculation. The fact they have not played the game, nor has most of the world, it is irrelevant to them. Yet when that is mentioned, it is just washed off by saying, we are going by the past history of the company, and anything else said is BS and that is the only relevant conclusions. No other arguements are even valid anymore because that mindset is set in stone. So, if you really want to look at past games for the company, I am going to say they are 1-1, however, the failed one, is simply going off of hearsay on my part. That does not sound like a doomed company. Even movie stars have bad films they star in once and a while.
One final note. This is the difference between a campaign and opinion. I don't think I have seen anyone that is going to be trying the game, to try and convince someone else to try the game. The ones who feel the game has failed from the start or that the company has failed them, seem to be the ones trying to convince others to not play the game. So you tell me, who is really on a campaign?
You obviously have never programmed. There is and has never been a single program sold that didnt have some kind of bug in it. An MMO is NEVER finished. If they were, then it certainly wouldn't last very long. Oh, so something that isn't working the way YOU want it to is obviously broken? And you think thats perfectly acceptable? Please....
This is a falsehood that needs to be put to rest. I will grant you there may have been no CONSUMER software ever sold bug-free (though I doubt that), but that is again a by-product of consumer conditioning into believing that it is impossible. I work in lifecycle management for military government contracts (not a programmer) and can tell you that we thoroughly test every piece of new software to the point it is bug-free before deployment to the fleet. Why? Because an airborn fighter pilot does not have the high threshold for buggy software that gamers have.
Now, before you jump in with the "government is different blah blah blah," my point is software can be made bug-free prior to release. Do not even try to tell me a piece of game software is any more complex than software designed to track, identify, prioritize and engage multiple boggies at near mach speeds. Software can be made bug-free first time out. It can be done. It won't be done as long as we - as consumers - refuse to demand it. At the very least, our threshold for acceptance should be very high, so that any bugs at release are minor annoyances and are fixed immediately.
An MMO is never finished- this may be true. If so, game companies need to release with fewer but fully functional features and later add new fully functional features as the game matures.
You obviously have never programmed. There is and has never been a single program sold that didnt have some kind of bug in it. An MMO is NEVER finished. If they were, then it certainly wouldn't last very long. Oh, so something that isn't working the way YOU want it to is obviously broken? And you think thats perfectly acceptable? Please....
This is a falsehood that needs to be put to rest. I will grant you there may have been no CONSUMER software ever sold bug-free (though I doubt that), but that is again a by-product of consumer conditioning into believing that it is impossible. I work in lifecycle management for military government contracts (not a programmer) and can tell you that we thoroughly test every piece of new software to the point it is bug-free before deployment to the fleet. Why? Because an airborn fighter pilot does not have the high threshold for buggy software that gamers have.
Now, before you jump in with the "government is different blah blah blah," my point is software can be made bug-free prior to release. Do not even try to tell me a piece of game software is any more complex than software designed to track, identify, prioritize and engage multiple boggies at near mach speeds. Software can be made bug-free first time out. It can be done. It won't be done as long as we - as consumers - refuse to demand it. At the very least, our threshold for acceptance should be very high, so that any bugs at release are minor annoyances and are fixed immediately.
An MMO is never finished- this may be true. If so, game companies need to release with fewer but fully functional features and later add new fully functional features as the game matures.
But games CAN be bug-free at launch.
Even you just admitted that consumer software is more than likely buggy. You know the difference here. A piece of military software that is malfunctioning could cost human lives. Not only that, but you are also looking at highly focused testing by people that know exactly what they are looking for. In the "real" world, that test group is not there. I bet half the testers in the games are there for playing the game for free, not for testing. Sure, a game CAN be bug free, but if your just going to let the average joe blow test your apps, they aint going to find these bugs. So, I would say that you would have to put just as much emphasis on the "testers" as you do the companies.
Oh, just as a side note. It has been shown that even military software can be buggy. Just watch the military channel some time. You will see that even jets have had software issues that have cost people their lives. Luckily, a video game having bugs in it, is not a threat to the people that are playing them.
of course it's buggy thats why it's in closed beta. and every mmo is still buggy when launched even WoW was. the real question is will they fix them and how long. for example star wars galaxies was and still very buggy game some have been around for years and some mmo's are pretty stable. this should be expected of any mmo in beta or just launched.
You obviously have never programmed. There is and has never been a single program sold that didnt have some kind of bug in it. An MMO is NEVER finished. If they were, then it certainly wouldn't last very long. Oh, so something that isn't working the way YOU want it to is obviously broken? And you think thats perfectly acceptable? Please....
This is a falsehood that needs to be put to rest. I will grant you there may have been no CONSUMER software ever sold bug-free (though I doubt that), but that is again a by-product of consumer conditioning into believing that it is impossible. I work in lifecycle management for military government contracts (not a programmer) and can tell you that we thoroughly test every piece of new software to the point it is bug-free before deployment to the fleet. Why? Because an airborn fighter pilot does not have the high threshold for buggy software that gamers have.
Now, before you jump in with the "government is different blah blah blah," my point is software can be made bug-free prior to release. Do not even try to tell me a piece of game software is any more complex than software designed to track, identify, prioritize and engage multiple boggies at near mach speeds. Software can be made bug-free first time out. It can be done. It won't be done as long as we - as consumers - refuse to demand it. At the very least, our threshold for acceptance should be very high, so that any bugs at release are minor annoyances and are fixed immediately.
An MMO is never finished- this may be true. If so, game companies need to release with fewer but fully functional features and later add new fully functional features as the game matures.
But games CAN be bug-free at launch.
Even you just admitted that consumer software is more than likely buggy. That actually is not what I said, but let's move on.
You know the difference here. A piece of military software that is malfunctioning could cost human lives. Not only that, but you are also looking at highly focused testing by people that know exactly what they are looking for.
Granted. Military software is more mission critical than consumer games. I would not expect the same detail level of testing. The purpose of this very lop-sided comparision is to get out of the mindset that bug-free launches are "impossible" and go with "improbable." As long as we believe it is impossble, there will be no pressure to improve quality.
In the "real" world, that test group is not there. I bet half the testers in the games are there for playing the game for free, not for testing. Sure, a game CAN be bug free, but if your just going to let the average joe blow test your apps, they aint going to find these bugs. So, I would say that you would have to put just as much emphasis on the "testers" as you do the companies.
Great point. So game companies should rethink the whole open beta nonsense (an issue often discussed here). But they won't as long as their bug-riddled and feature-retracted games are huge sellers at launch because people absolutely have to wear that pixalated Star Fleet uniform.
Oh, just as a side note. It has been shown that even military software can be buggy. Just watch the military channel some time. You will see that even jets have had software issues that have cost people their lives. Luckily, a video game having bugs in it, is not a threat to the people that are playing them.
Not being able to speak to specifics, I can imagine bugs in military software, which have lead to the very stringent testing and evaluation requirements we have today. Yet I doubt anyone will argue that, overall, games (MMO or SP) are the most bug-ridden of consumer software. Why aren't game companies taking their quality control more seriously? Could it be because their customers do not demand it? Could it be they are so afraid they will never get the chance to play Captain Krik or Commander Kor if they don't support an incomplete game at full price the very moment it is offered?
of course it's buggy thats why it's in closed beta. and every mmo is still buggy when launched even WoW was. the real question is will they fix them and how long. for example star wars galaxies was and still very buggy game some have been around for years and some mmo's are pretty stable. this should be expected of any mmo in beta or just launched.
No, it should not be expected or accepted.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
You know the difference here. A piece of military software that is malfunctioning could cost human lives. Not only that, but you are also looking at highly focused testing by people that know exactly what they are looking for.
Granted. Military software is more mission critical than consumer games. I would not expect the same detail level of testing. The purpose of this very lop-sided comparision is to get out of the mindset that bug-free launches are "impossible" and go with "improbable." As long as we believe it is impossble, there will be no pressure to improve quality.
This refers to my point below.
In the "real" world, that test group is not there. I bet half the testers in the games are there for playing the game for free, not for testing. Sure, a game CAN be bug free, but if your just going to let the average joe blow test your apps, they aint going to find these bugs. So, I would say that you would have to put just as much emphasis on the "testers" as you do the companies.
Great point. So game companies should rethink the whole open beta nonsense (an issue often discussed here). But they won't as long as their bug-riddled and feature-retracted games are huge sellers at launch because people absolutely have to wear that pixalated Star Fleet uniform.
Yes they should. However it is improbable due to having to pay testers to do just that, test. The problem I feel is three fold. Budget, time constraints being levied onto the developers by outside forces and crappy non paid testers. You have to look no further than Vanguard for all the above. When they ran out of money, the got more publishers, they ran out of money again, got more money, then the demands were set that they must release. Compared to any game out there, I feel they had more content and more of an actual world than any other mmo ever released. But they were not allowed to finish the game, they had to push it out then they ended up selling it to sony. Then it really went to hell. Yet, even this failed game does have a pretty decent following, so in a since, it didnt really fail.
So the chances of going to paid testers in this economy just does not seem like it will happen. People seem to forget the economy sucks right now and badly. My group at my job was a group of 10. Now we are down to 4 and overworked and still will not ever catch up without hiring more people, yet they dont want to, Even if it causes us to fail to meet certain goals. And it continues to get worse every year. Heck, half the people I have to deal with are overseas in india. Many of our own in house apps have been outsourced for programming. So yeah, it could be done. But are we the people willing to pay double or triple for a video game? I serously doubt it.
Oh, just as a side note. It has been shown that even military software can be buggy. Just watch the military channel some time. You will see that even jets have had software issues that have cost people their lives. Luckily, a video game having bugs in it, is not a threat to the people that are playing them.
Not being able to speak to specifics, I can imagine bugs in military software, which have lead to the very stringent testing and evaluation requirements we have today. Yet I doubt anyone will argue that, overall, games (MMO or SP) are the most bug-ridden of consumer software. Why aren't game companies taking their quality control more seriously? Could it be because their customers do not demand it? Could it be they are so afraid they will never get the chance to play Captain Krik or Commander Kor if they don't support an incomplete game at full price the very moment it is offered?
Or it could be that they dont have the funds or man power to do it. Do you want to pay 500 dollars for a video game that is bug free or 50 bucks and put up with some bugs? Someone has to pay for all that extra work and to be honest, I think the game companies feel that we would not pay 500 bucks for a video game. And as most of the world knows, the military or government is not as self concious about paying a lot more for a program or piece of hardware.
to the guy that tests military software till its bug free: you guys have an unlimited budget and no expectations of ever making that money back. consumer software has a very strict programming and testing budget, and has to turn a profit or it wont ever hit the shelves. also i have yet to see a piece of consumer software that could directly get someone killed if it crashes to blue screen.
of course it's buggy thats why it's in closed beta. and every mmo is still buggy when launched even WoW was. the real question is will they fix them and how long. for example star wars galaxies was and still very buggy game some have been around for years and some mmo's are pretty stable. this should be expected of any mmo in beta or just launched.
No, it should not be expected or accepted.
my point is sir is that accepting or not thats the way mmo's have and still are we like it or not. when i say expect as in thats the way it will most likly be. for example just an example mind you. say the 1st of every month stock crashes but rises any other day after many decades people EXPECT it to to so after so long. now my point is sir is we expect it to have bug not because we like or want or accept BUT because thats te way they have been for so long. we can't always expect or accept whatever we can't control. class dismissed.
Comments
I agree with you. Unlike most MMOs that I anxiously await I am not following STO detail by detail as it gets released. I feel like I will have a better assessment of the game if I just go into it without reading all the hype, gossip, and rumors. I will try it and if it feels like a smooth game with enough content to keep me occupied I will likely play for a long time.
Personally I don't see the virtue in spending money mostly blindly. One should try to make a purchasing decision as reasonably informed as possible. If you have trouble telling how good a game is by previews, reviews, first-hand accounts, gameplay footage, possibly open beta, and other sources then rather than ignore all that information you should change how you process it.
In my mind, given how Cryptic bungled Champions Online only months ago and how STO was also made in an extremely short amount of time, that is cause for caution regarding buying this game. Given that even some people somewhat positive about the game (Dana for instance) have a large list of flaws in it and have even questioned whether it can be ready in time for release*, I think that is even more reason for caution. Adding the needless IP breaking and incomplete Klingon faction, and I see no reason to buy this game blindly when it comes out. There are other reasons for concern as well. The wiser course is to wait and reevaluate a few months after release (note that such a principle would have worked well for Champions Online, and heck if it works like CO you'd even have plenty of free weekends to try out the game).
*Dana implied this at the beginning of the first part of his preview, though admittedly he didn't go into depth as to why he felt this way.
1. Who said anything about going into it blindly? He didn't say he was ignoring all information. He is just choosing which information he wants to read about. The game has bugs, there is no doubt about it, especially if you read any of the articles that talk about STO. That doesn't mean you shouldn't buy it. You are choosing not to buy it at launch which is well within your rights. You feel the game is not ready for release and your not willing to spend money on something you don't feel is ready to be played. No problem there.
2. What I find strange is that you seem to be trying to convince others not to buy this game at launch and I just can't figure out why. Are you really that concerned about how others spend their money and are trying to keep them from making a mistake or do you have some hidden agenda here to try and kill the game before it launches?
I am pretty sure that by now, most folks who even vaguely follow STO knows that it has many issues that it needs to fix. With that said, many of these folks are willing to give it a go anyway, including myself, Heck I even bought the CE version and I believe it may either be the first or possibly second time I have ever done that. I vaguely remember buying another mmo and it might have been a deluxe version but its been so long ago, I can't remember what it was.
3. I just can't help the feeling that I have that you really don't want this game to release as is and if it is going to, that your going to try your best to ruin it for everyone including cryptic. I can understand you being upset that the game isn't turning out the way you want it,
4. I can understand you not wanting to buy it in its current state, I don't understand why you seem to against it though. I say this as a person who hates SONY with a passion, yet I will not go onto a message board of one of their games and downplay the game or the company at all. My stand is firm, until sony gets rid of a certain person in their games division, I simply will not buy any more of their games. If STO had been in their hands, I simply wouldn't buy it, but I wouldn't be trying to encourage others not to buy it, nor would I be on the message boards slamming their game. But hey, thats just me. I feel everyone has the right to choose freely if they want something or not, regardless of who is making it or even what it is.
1. Hmm, where to begin? He only talked about ignoring information, he didn't talk about anything he was paying attention to, so I made my post focus on the idea of not paying attention to the details about a game and just buying it anyway (e.g. buying it blindly, though if you want to consider that half-blind or whatever, then feel free). Maybe the person I quoted was paying attention to more than he let on, but he didn't seem to be saying he was and I didn't find any other posts where he talked about it. Even so, that doesn't really change the point I was trying to make which was more generalized.
2. Btw, if I feel like I want to share my reasoning about why I am not buying the game, that's certainly my choice and a perfectly fine thing to do. The same is true for anyone who wants to talk about why they are buying the game. I will say I do feel that the fact we Trekkers buy any Trek game that comes out is a contributing factor to most Trek games being bad -- there's just not a lot of financial incentive to making sure such games are good. STO looks like it will be yet another example of this phenomenon. So yeah, I feel like sharing that reasoning and opinion with other people. If you have a problem with that opinion, then that's fine, but it is rather silly to have a problem with someone expressing that opinion. Anyhow, this is hardly a "hidden agenda" as I've been pretty vocal about all of this before (and even in this thread).
3. Yeah, that's such an odd "feeling" for you to have. I'm pretty sure I've stated the game looks like it needs another year or two of development. Others have stated this as well, btw. I also want quality Trek games where the proper time is taken to make them. This "feeling" that I don't want to have the game release "as is" is in fact something I've explicitly said more than once. The only thing that causes me puzzlement over this is the fact you seem to be following my posts to some extent, and yet you act like I'm doing something cloak and dagger when I've been upfront and clear about my feelings, opinions, reasonings, and desires from the get-go (including how I was originally looking forward to this game months ago).
As for the idea I am trying to "ruin it for everyone"...I'm told I have a bit of an ego, but seriously, I am NOT THAT INFLUENTIAL. The idea I could single-handedly "ruin" a game by apparently influencing a couple hundred thousand people is ludicrous. At best I might convince a few dozen people, but I don't find that very likely...a handful is more likely. Anyhow, if the game is "ruined" (which I largely expect...though I don't expect it to necessarily be ruined to the point of folding) it will be Cryptic's doing, not mine. Now, I do enjoy talking about ideas, and like most people I like a nice rant on something that looks terrible, but if my reasoning and opinions ruin the game forever for anyone, then I'd propose it wasn't me that ruined it, but rather the game itself that was flawed. Anyhow, thank you for the amusing idea that I am "trying to kill the game"...it entertained me quite a bit.
4. I don't like bad Star Trek games. The fact it looks bad is why I won't buy it AND why I am against the current state of the game as well as the fairly limited initial design of it. As for going on message boards, I visit boards of some sites from time to time. MMORPG is one of them, and this isn't the only board on here I am active in. I certainly wouldn't waste my time on the STO boards.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
I agree with you. Unlike most MMOs that I anxiously await I am not following STO detail by detail as it gets released. I feel like I will have a better assessment of the game if I just go into it without reading all the hype, gossip, and rumors. I will try it and if it feels like a smooth game with enough content to keep me occupied I will likely play for a long time.
Personally I don't see the virtue in spending money mostly blindly. One should try to make a purchasing decision as reasonably informed as possible. If you have trouble telling how good a game is by previews, reviews, first-hand accounts, gameplay footage, possibly open beta, and other sources then rather than ignore all that information you should change how you process it.
In my mind, given how Cryptic bungled Champions Online only months ago and how STO was also made in an extremely short amount of time, that is cause for caution regarding buying this game. Given that even some people somewhat positive about the game (Dana for instance) have a large list of flaws in it and have even questioned whether it can be ready in time for release*, I think that is even more reason for caution. Adding the needless IP breaking and incomplete Klingon faction, and I see no reason to buy this game blindly when it comes out. There are other reasons for concern as well. The wiser course is to wait and reevaluate a few months after release (note that such a principle would have worked well for Champions Online, and heck if it works like CO you'd even have plenty of free weekends to try out the game).
*Dana implied this at the beginning of the first part of his preview, though admittedly he didn't go into depth as to why he felt this way.
1. Who said anything about going into it blindly? He didn't say he was ignoring all information. He is just choosing which information he wants to read about. The game has bugs, there is no doubt about it, especially if you read any of the articles that talk about STO. That doesn't mean you shouldn't buy it. You are choosing not to buy it at launch which is well within your rights. You feel the game is not ready for release and your not willing to spend money on something you don't feel is ready to be played. No problem there.
2. What I find strange is that you seem to be trying to convince others not to buy this game at launch and I just can't figure out why. Are you really that concerned about how others spend their money and are trying to keep them from making a mistake or do you have some hidden agenda here to try and kill the game before it launches?
I am pretty sure that by now, most folks who even vaguely follow STO knows that it has many issues that it needs to fix. With that said, many of these folks are willing to give it a go anyway, including myself, Heck I even bought the CE version and I believe it may either be the first or possibly second time I have ever done that. I vaguely remember buying another mmo and it might have been a deluxe version but its been so long ago, I can't remember what it was.
3. I just can't help the feeling that I have that you really don't want this game to release as is and if it is going to, that your going to try your best to ruin it for everyone including cryptic. I can understand you being upset that the game isn't turning out the way you want it,
4. I can understand you not wanting to buy it in its current state, I don't understand why you seem to against it though. I say this as a person who hates SONY with a passion, yet I will not go onto a message board of one of their games and downplay the game or the company at all. My stand is firm, until sony gets rid of a certain person in their games division, I simply will not buy any more of their games. If STO had been in their hands, I simply wouldn't buy it, but I wouldn't be trying to encourage others not to buy it, nor would I be on the message boards slamming their game. But hey, thats just me. I feel everyone has the right to choose freely if they want something or not, regardless of who is making it or even what it is.
1. Hmm, where to begin? He only talked about ignoring information, he didn't talk about anything he was paying attention to, so I made my post focus on the idea of not paying attention to the details about a game and just buying it anyway (e.g. buying it blindly, though if you want to consider that half-blind or whatever, then feel free). Maybe the person I quoted was paying attention to more than he let on, but he didn't seem to be saying he was and I didn't find any other posts where he talked about it. Even so, that doesn't really change the point I was trying to make which was more generalized.
1A) You might want to generalize your generalizations more then. Seemed, not so generalized to me.
2. Btw, if I feel like I want to share my reasoning about why I am not buying the game, that's certainly my choice and a perfectly fine thing to do. The same is true for anyone who wants to talk about why they are buying the game. I will say I do feel that the fact we Trekkers buy any Trek game that comes out is a contributing factor to most Trek games being bad -- there's just not a lot of financial incentive to making sure such games are good. STO looks like it will be yet another example of this phenomenon. So yeah, I feel like sharing that reasoning and opinion with other people. If you have a problem with that opinion, then that's fine, but it is rather silly to have a problem with someone expressing that opinion. Anyhow, this is hardly a "hidden agenda" as I've been pretty vocal about all of this before (and even in this thread).
2A) Your opinion would be that you dont like the game, this is why, Im not going to buy it. When you cross that line to telling others that they should reconsider their decisions then thats no longer your opinion.
3. Yeah, that's such an odd "feeling" for you to have. I'm pretty sure I've stated the game looks like it needs another year or two of development. Others have stated this as well, btw. I also want quality Trek games where the proper time is taken to make them. This "feeling" that I don't want to have the game release "as is" is in fact something I've explicitly said more than once. The only thing that causes me puzzlement over this is the fact you seem to be following my posts to some extent, and yet you act like I'm doing something cloak and dagger when I've been upfront and clear about my feelings, opinions, reasonings, and desires from the get-go (including how I was originally looking forward to this game months ago).
3A) Yes many others have stated that it could use more development, Im not denying that. As a matter of fact, I have said many things to many of them to
As for wanting a quality trek game, I am pretty sure we all would like that. The point I am making is regardless of your feelings, the game IS releasing. Maybe you should realize that and accept the game for the way its going to start, because it is obviously not waiting on you to give the approval for it.
Well, I am following this thread because *I* started this thread. I follow several other threads. It just so happens that our opinions seem to conflict with each other a lot. I been looking forward to this game since it was first announced by Perpetual. Oddly though, I am still looking forward to this game where as you are not.
As for the idea I am trying to "ruin it for everyone"...I'm told I have a bit of an ego, but seriously, I am NOT THAT INFLUENTIAL. The idea I could single-handedly "ruin" a game by apparently influencing a couple hundred thousand people is ludicrous. At best I might convince a few dozen people, but I don't find that very likely...a handful is more likely. Anyhow, if the game is "ruined" (which I largely expect...though I don't expect it to necessarily be ruined to the point of folding) it will be Cryptic's doing, not mine. Now, I do enjoy talking about ideas, and like most people I like a nice rant on something that looks terrible, but if my reasoning and opinions ruin the game forever for anyone, then I'd propose it wasn't me that ruined it, but rather the game itself that was flawed. Anyhow, thank you for the amusing idea that I am "trying to kill the game"...it entertained me quite a bit.
4. I don't like bad Star Trek games. The fact it looks bad is why I won't buy it AND why I am against the current state of the game as well as the fairly limited initial design of it. As for going on message boards, I visit boards of some sites from time to time. MMORPG is one of them, and this isn't the only board on here I am active in. I certainly wouldn't waste my time on the STO boards.
4A) I never said you were that influential, I said you seemed to be trying very hard, which you sure have been. You are not the only one either. Some others feel this game is doomed. They are more obvious about how they say it though.
I don't like bad games in general, Not just ST. I dont see the game looking bad at all. I see the game may have some bug problems but overall the game, from what I have seen, Looks freaking awesome! Ok, maybe not the ground so much, but I am sure that will get better at some point. So please, since you feel this game is so bad, explain it even more.
I look at the game and think, ok space, looks awesome. Not to happy about how the ships are controlled (wasd keys) but oh well. Ground, looks good, not to happy about the characters movements, but those are both my opinions. Klingons, PVP faction, hrmm. Couldn't get them fully implemented by the time the game released. Well, Great freaking idea though, to make them a sole pvp faction. At LEAST they are there and people will get to play them at the start. The ships look good to me, the special effects look pretty darn good, what I have seen of the UI is kinda blah. The episodes as they call them sound to be very well though out and implemented. Yes there will be bugs, but that is expected in anything that is huge like this.
There. I have stated both good and bad about the game so far and the reasons I am going to play it. All I have heard from you is bad and that your not. Why so negative? Why can't you be happy for the ones that are happy to see it release.
I just hope it succeeds and turns out to be as expected of star trek IP. alot of people are saying it will fail. but as we know this is assumption from videos. in fact i hear alot of positive from the in closed beta. i have learned to ignore people's comments before open beta or even launch. warhammer online an AoC both where said to be the next big thing and push WoW aside now all we here is it's dying servers will shut down blah blah. i look foward to open beta because then players opinion will hold more fact.
Again, I think you are showing your ignorance on programming and business. We are talking millions of lines of code here, not your basic hello world pop up box. People are the ones required to find bugs. There is no way of getting around it. Let me give you an example. I ran a BBS many years ago. A friend of mine wrote an addin for me for my BBS software that would allow people to deposit some of their time remaining so that if they needed more time on another day, they could take some of it out and remain online while they finished what they were doing. I saw my friends code. It was not very complex but at the time, it was way beyond me at what he was doing. Anyhow, we found out there was a bug in it. You know how we found out? I caught someone cheating the time bank. They found if they inputted a negative number that it actually gave positive time. It was something that him nor I would have ever thought about doing. It never crossed our minds that anyone would even try that. Now, take that exact same scenario and multiply it by millions and then add hundreds and thousands of people who will try anything and everything imaginable. Thats how bugs are found. Then it takes serious time going through code to find out how that is happening in the first place.
As for your execs. Sure it might be that way. Consider that most MMO's even if it is 5 years in the making, are losing MILLIONS of dollars on this while it is happening. At some point, you just can't wait any longer and have to release, bugs or no bugs. Content or less content. Lets not forget the investors that have put in their money on the projects. They could be getting pressure from so many sides that they have no choice. And again, Unfinished in an MMO is an MMO. They are never finished until they close the doors on them.
You're wrong. It's still an opinion. If my opinion also includes a recommendation, then that's just how it goes, but it certainly doesn't change the fact it is still an opinion.
As for the other thing about accepting the fact the game is being released as-is, I've already done that. That's part of why I think it is going to suck and that it is a waste of money; yet another rushed game that is going to come out with too many problems to bother with and will bleed customers.
You're wrong. It's still an opinion. If my opinion also includes a recommendation, then that's just how it goes, but it certainly doesn't change the fact it is still an opinion.
As for the other thing about accepting the fact the game is being released as-is, I've already done that. That's part of why I think it is going to suck and that it is a waste of money; yet another rushed game that is going to come out with too many problems to bother with and will bleed customers.
Well, from my side, it doesn't look like your just expressing your opinion, it appears that you are trying to get a revolt against the game. Not just you, but others on here as well. Now, what about my other question of why can't you be happy for others that want to try the game? If you have accepted the game as is, and think its going to suck and your not going to get it, then why continue the negative campaign? Why not simply quit following the game?
You're wrong. It's still an opinion. If my opinion also includes a recommendation, then that's just how it goes, but it certainly doesn't change the fact it is still an opinion.
As for the other thing about accepting the fact the game is being released as-is, I've already done that. That's part of why I think it is going to suck and that it is a waste of money; yet another rushed game that is going to come out with too many problems to bother with and will bleed customers.
Well, from my side, it doesn't look like your just expressing your opinion, it appears that you are trying to get a revolt against the game. Not just you, but others on here as well. Now, what about my other question of why can't you be happy for others that want to try the game? If you have accepted the game as is, and think its going to suck and your not going to get it, then why continue the negative campaign? Why not simply quit following the game?
Well, from my side, it doesn't look like you're just expressing your opinion, it appears that you are trying to get a cult for the game. Not just you, but others on here as well. Now, what about my other quest of why can't you be happy for others that don't like the game? If you have accepted the game as is, and think it is going to be great and you're going to get it, then why continue the positive campaign? Why not simply quit following the forums?
Hmm, yup, seems just as silly a statement either way.
i agree with doom. if it's opinion you would have stated it once and left at that but you keep at it. why you hate a game thats in closed beta is beyond me. but if it is opinion then thats cool and stop the fighting . but if your goal IS to change peoples view of game 99.99% of the world has not gotten there hands on then you should be ashamed and needs to stop.
At the risk of derailing this thread further (though all this is tangentially related to the topic, I suppose), why do you think any of that? What's your reasoning that makes you think people only express their opinion once and then vanish into the night or that one should feel ashamed for voicing their opinion and their reasoning that backs it up in the belief that the merits should be debated and discussed? Is this some sort of anti-intellectualism, a rejection of people that don't follow what you consider the groupthink, or something else?
It doesn't seem like you are saying that people shouldn't change other people's opinions in general though. If you are, then you are being inconsistent with the application of that credo, since you are clearly trying to change my opinion about how I should express my opinions. Then again, you have an odd definition of "opinion" that I don't quite follow, since apparently the term for you is only confined to things people don't care much about. Anyhow, care to elaborate on your thinking here?
You're wrong. It's still an opinion. If my opinion also includes a recommendation, then that's just how it goes, but it certainly doesn't change the fact it is still an opinion.
As for the other thing about accepting the fact the game is being released as-is, I've already done that. That's part of why I think it is going to suck and that it is a waste of money; yet another rushed game that is going to come out with too many problems to bother with and will bleed customers.
Well, from my side, it doesn't look like your just expressing your opinion, it appears that you are trying to get a revolt against the game. Not just you, but others on here as well. Now, what about my other question of why can't you be happy for others that want to try the game? If you have accepted the game as is, and think its going to suck and your not going to get it, then why continue the negative campaign? Why not simply quit following the game?
Well, from my side, it doesn't look like you're just expressing your opinion, it appears that you are trying to get a cult for the game. Not just you, but others on here as well. Now, what about my other quest of why can't you be happy for others that don't like the game? If you have accepted the game as is, and think it is going to be great and you're going to get it, then why continue the positive campaign? Why not simply quit following the forums?
Hmm, yup, seems just as silly a statement either way.
I have acknowledged that the game has faults. Yet, I am going to be playing the game. Thus why I keep posting on a forum, about a game, that I am going to play. I will also be posting after I start playing it as well. Thats what people do for a game that they are eager to play or are playing (and no, im not in the beta, that was generalized). We talk about the game, improvements we want to see, problems that will need fixed and so on. It is obvious by anyone who reads me threads that I am not launching a campaign about anything. I am simply looking forward to the game.
However, when someone isn't going to play a game and yet keeps harping on it and trying to persuade others not to play, that is a campaign. And for the record, I have never said the game is going to be great. I have no idea what its going to be like. I only hope that it is good.
See the difference here also, is that I have posted and do post occasionally on the regular STO forums. You have admitted that you don't even go to them. I mean, there, is where you should be spelling out your problems with the game. Instead, your here, not debating if the game is going to be good or not, you have already condemned it. Instead, your trying to get people to not play the game.
You can state opinion as long as many times as you want just don't force it down are thoat. pure and simple your opinion and most others on this board are assumption because only few dozen people in world of billions has access so fighting on this is pointless pure and simple end of story. theres difference to stating opinion and defending it and then theres trying to get everyone to look at YOUR view when your view or anyone else who hasn't played it yet has no idea what really to expect.
That it will sell well and then lose the majority of it's people after the first month or two.
STO will then l limp along like CO with Cryptic trying to continue to add things that should of been in and fixed before release.
Atari (Publisher) will make a nice profit and then move on looking for the next game to make money on.
Game Dev's (Ones that write the code) are not the ones that foster this shove it out the door and move on. It is the game publishers/directors that control the time frames and the cash that set these people up as the fall guys.
Not to let Cryptic people totally off the hook. They seem to really believe that they can put out a MMO in under 3 years development time. Well they can, just do not expect a good MMO.
I've acknowledged the game has good elements, just far too few and overall there are too many flaws. I'm disappointed in the game and it looks like yet another rushed game. This is a game I was looking forward to because it was Sci-Fi and I love the IP, yet like CO it looks like Cryptic is going to make another crappy game. I'm perfectly in my rights to discuss my disappointment with the game. If you can't handle me saying why I am disappointed, why I don't deem the game will be able to overcome the clear shortcomings even you see before release, and why that means one shouldn't buy the game (in my opinion), then you are free to block me. I'm not going to stop posting just because you don't like reading my posts and think I should exit the forums. I'm not launching a campaign about anything either, that's why my posts are confined to these boards. I obviously enjoy some of the discussion that goes on, and I participate in it. That's all. Yes, I think my conclusions are right and my attitude is the correct one, but really, who doesn't? I could argue just as readily you are involved in a campaign to get people to buy the game no matter what flaws it has, but I don't think it is any more accurate than your characterization of me.
I find it odd you don't think I should be posting here, yet you think I should go to the STO forums to post. It isn't like if I go there they'll listen and delay launch until the Klingons are done, or get the other 12 or so months of development time the game seems to need. The reality is the game is due to be released soon and the reality is also that no matter when in the last couple of months I signed up for the STO forums, that wasn't going to change. The game will be released overly buggy, unpolished (even Dana seems to think they probably won't get that together in time for launch), missing significant content, and if past games by Cryptic are anything to go by it will have big balance problems. I am perfectly willing to debate the merits of the game, and I am willing to change my position if the facts are against me. That doesn't seem likely to happen. Heck, you concede most of my points. You admit the game is buggy. You admit significant content isn't there (Klingon). I believe you've admitted the game is rushed. The only thing you deny is that all these problems mean the safer course of action is to wait and see what happens rather than hoping it is a good game despite looking like it won't be (as we have seen time and time again with other MMOs). Sorry, but I can't quite see the logic in that, especially giving how much of a disappointment Champions Online was only months ago. There's no reason to give Cryptic the benefit of the doubt here.
That said, if someone actually had facts or a good argument against the above, I'd be perfectly willing to change my mind. No one seems to though, other than saying "just buy it and try it out!" which is the root cause of why we have so many bad MMOs to begin with, people buy them anyways and I'm not going to be a party to that. No, I fully expect the game to be a massive disappointment, and I'm not going to buy it irrationally hoping it will somehow be good despite all the things it has going against it. I'll continue to state my opinion and position on here, and continue to discuss the fine points of the opinion I have formed. I'll probably take a break from this section of the MMO forums shortly after the release, but I'll check back after a few months to double-check my conclusions. I don't expect to be surprised by the results.
As to your thought that I should just shut up and go away (because that is what you are suggesting), I have to decline. Other people considering buying this game that visit the forums deserve a full spectrum of thought and opinion on it. I personally don't think Cryptic deserves to make money on the quickly manufactured crap MMOs they seem to want to make. I don't think we as gamers should support a business model that encourages crappy games to be made. If you think one person expressing their well thought-out opinion more than once on one board on the internet means they have a "campaign" then you are free to think that. That kind of definition means the vast majority of posters are campaigning though.
Even though i prefer creative Fantasy type games,i will probably try this game.My gut tells me this game will be very cheap,doing nothing more than scratch the surface with every idea they have in the game.However that is my preconception of the game.
My reason for this preconception?You can thank EVE for it.When other games stand back and see how successful Eve is for doing very little with the POTENTIAL of the game,other developers are going to think they can do the same and get away with it.As you can see MOST of the people awaiting STO DO want to be able to stand in their ship and land on planets,so this crowd is much more demanding than the EVE crowd.
I will go in open minded to any kind of creativity and enjoy anything that looks well thought out.If i enter and see nothing but cheap ideas,and shake my head at every option,it will be a short stay on my HD.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I can't say one way or another if CO was a flop. I tried the open beta and didnt like it, but not because of gameplay, I could not stand the graphics in that game, to me it was horrible. Not horrible in sense of it wasn't good. But horrible in that I did not like that style of art. Will STO be good? Who knows, I know it sure looks good so far but only time will tell.
I was browsing You Tube last night and found one that Jack was talking to some guys in an interview and was talking about klingons and fed play. When he got done, I was like, Ouch! he really stepped into it on that one. I think that is the exact reason companies don't want to give out information because if something doesn't make it in that they say is going to be there, people throw a complete temper tantrum. But we are the ones that cause this. Our demanding of more information forces these companies to speak out and then when something isn't like they say, its a lynch mob style retort.
I don't know how much time they had with COH, but I thought it was a lot of fun. I think they can make a good game, but I think that you can't expect it to have everything you want in it right from the start in that short amount of time. And that is a problem for a lot of folks, they want it all right now and are not willing to help the game evolve. Or, if it doesn't have everything they want, than its simply doomed to failure in their eyes.
I've acknowledged the game has good elements, just far too few and overall there are too many flaws. I'm disappointed in the game and it looks like yet another rushed game. This is a game I was looking forward to because it was Sci-Fi and I love the IP, yet like CO it looks like Cryptic is going to make another crappy game. I'm perfectly in my rights to discuss my disappointment with the game. If you can't handle me saying why I am disappointed, why I don't deem the game will be able to overcome the clear shortcomings even you see before release, and why that means one shouldn't buy the game (in my opinion), then you are free to block me. I'm not going to stop posting just because you don't like reading my posts and think I should exit the forums. I'm not launching a campaign about anything either, that's why my posts are confined to these boards. I obviously enjoy some of the discussion that goes on, and I participate in it. That's all. Yes, I think my conclusions are right and my attitude is the correct one, but really, who doesn't? I could argue just as readily you are involved in a campaign to get people to buy the game no matter what flaws it has, but I don't think it is any more accurate than your characterization of me.
Hey, I could be wrong about you. And if you want to spell your disappointment on here thats fine, but to suggest others not by the game is wrong. Let the people decide for themselves.
I find it odd you don't think I should be posting here, yet you think I should go to the STO forums to post. It isn't like if I go there they'll listen and delay launch until the Klingons are done, or get the other 12 or so months of development time the game seems to need. The reality is the game is due to be released soon and the reality is also that no matter when in the last couple of months I signed up for the STO forums, that wasn't going to change. The game will be released overly buggy, unpolished (even Dana seems to think they probably won't get that together in time for launch), missing significant content, and if past games by Cryptic are anything to go by it will have big balance problems. I am perfectly willing to debate the merits of the game, and I am willing to change my position if the facts are against me. That doesn't seem likely to happen. Heck, you concede most of my points. You admit the game is buggy. You admit significant content isn't there (Klingon). I believe you've admitted the game is rushed. The only thing you deny is that all these problems mean the safer course of action is to wait and see what happens rather than hoping it is a good game despite looking like it won't be (as we have seen time and time again with other MMOs). Sorry, but I can't quite see the logic in that, especially giving how much of a disappointment Champions Online was only months ago. There's no reason to give Cryptic the benefit of the doubt here.
Right there. Its to late for you to do anything about it. The game is launching as is. Maybe if more of you had been on their forums, they might not have been so quick to release. Then again, atari may be forcing it at a certain date and there just aint a darn thing that cryptic can do about it but comply.
I admit the game is buggy from the reviews I have read. Not to mention that there has never been a single mmo released that didnt have bugs. If I go by past interviews, I think they fully intended on having klingons in at launch with a similar setup that the federation has. Thats my opinion though, I could have simply read into what they were saying as something else. I don't particularly care about the klingons so that never really affected me any. The game being rushed is debatable. 2.5 years is a short amount of time to put out an MMO. Its not to say they can't do it, but I think in that time limit, they can't get everything they want to put into it without a significant boost in their employee numbers. Ok, so you say CO was a flop. Maybe it was, I dont know. I think COH was not a flop and they did a good job with it. So, in that context, one good, one bad, hey, maybe their next one according to this trend, will be good.
And No, I am not telling anyone they should or shouldn't buy the game. I said *I* was buying it and gave my reasons why. Is it a safer course of action to wait? Im sure it always is no matter what game comes out, if your that concerned that your not going to like it. I am not that worried though. I look at all games as a form of entertainment. Its just like going to see a bad movie, sometimes you get one you just don't like. So if a person wants to be on the cautious side, more power to them, I find no fault in wanting to wait.
That said, if someone actually had facts or a good argument against the above, I'd be perfectly willing to change my mind. No one seems to though, other than saying "just buy it and try it out!" which is the root cause of why we have so many bad MMOs to begin with, people buy them anyways and I'm not going to be a party to that. No, I fully expect the game to be a massive disappointment, and I'm not going to buy it irrationally hoping it will somehow be good despite all the things it has going against it. I'll continue to state my opinion and position on here, and continue to discuss the fine points of the opinion I have formed. I'll probably take a break from this section of the MMO forums shortly after the release, but I'll check back after a few months to double-check my conclusions. I don't expect to be surprised by the results.
Thats because there are no facts yet because the game has not been released. And those that are in beta are under an NDA that keeps them from stating facts. And contrary to popular belief, just buy it and try it is not the root cause of bad video games. All video games has followings that like them. Just some have much less than others. You want to know what I told one of my friends the very first time I heard about ST being developed by perpetual? The very first thing out of my mouth was, If I fire a phaser and I see that it only does X amount of damage to someone, I am going to break that cd into a billion pieces and probably throw my computer out the window in disgust. Why? because thats not normally how a battle goes in ST. Its usually a one shot hit and either stun or kill. Sometimes there is a graze but usually only to the people that is vital to the show. Now, with that being said, I realized that this is an MMO and thus there was going to have to be many concessions like that in order to make the game play more fun. Some people just cant see that many things in ST can not be translated into an MMO and it still be fun.
Let me add this. If you go into a game expecting it to be shit, it will be shit, no matter if the game is actually good or not. That attitude will nitpick at every little detail till it finds enough little things that makes you /ragequit. I really hope though, that when you come back after a couple months, that you see there are people loving the game. But even then, with that attitude, you probably still wont like it.
As to your thought that I should just shut up and go away (because that is what you are suggesting), I have to decline. Other people considering buying this game that visit the forums deserve a full spectrum of thought and opinion on it. I personally don't think Cryptic deserves to make money on the quickly manufactured crap MMOs they seem to want to make. I don't think we as gamers should support a business model that encourages crappy games to be made. If you think one person expressing their well thought-out opinion more than once on one board on the internet means they have a "campaign" then you are free to think that. That kind of definition means the vast majority of posters are campaigning though.
No, I don't think you should shut up and go away. I think you should continue to debate your point of view without trying to influence others one way or another. The only problem with this is that nobody can really refute much of what you say because we aren't in the game to be able to refute your conjecture. See, here is the problem with naysayers. They can complain about every little thing, doom the game, doom the company, and do it all by speculation. The fact they have not played the game, nor has most of the world, it is irrelevant to them. Yet when that is mentioned, it is just washed off by saying, we are going by the past history of the company, and anything else said is BS and that is the only relevant conclusions. No other arguements are even valid anymore because that mindset is set in stone. So, if you really want to look at past games for the company, I am going to say they are 1-1, however, the failed one, is simply going off of hearsay on my part. That does not sound like a doomed company. Even movie stars have bad films they star in once and a while.
One final note. This is the difference between a campaign and opinion. I don't think I have seen anyone that is going to be trying the game, to try and convince someone else to try the game. The ones who feel the game has failed from the start or that the company has failed them, seem to be the ones trying to convince others to not play the game. So you tell me, who is really on a campaign?
This is a falsehood that needs to be put to rest. I will grant you there may have been no CONSUMER software ever sold bug-free (though I doubt that), but that is again a by-product of consumer conditioning into believing that it is impossible. I work in lifecycle management for military government contracts (not a programmer) and can tell you that we thoroughly test every piece of new software to the point it is bug-free before deployment to the fleet. Why? Because an airborn fighter pilot does not have the high threshold for buggy software that gamers have.
Now, before you jump in with the "government is different blah blah blah," my point is software can be made bug-free prior to release. Do not even try to tell me a piece of game software is any more complex than software designed to track, identify, prioritize and engage multiple boggies at near mach speeds. Software can be made bug-free first time out. It can be done. It won't be done as long as we - as consumers - refuse to demand it. At the very least, our threshold for acceptance should be very high, so that any bugs at release are minor annoyances and are fixed immediately.
An MMO is never finished- this may be true. If so, game companies need to release with fewer but fully functional features and later add new fully functional features as the game matures.
But games CAN be bug-free at launch.
This is a falsehood that needs to be put to rest. I will grant you there may have been no CONSUMER software ever sold bug-free (though I doubt that), but that is again a by-product of consumer conditioning into believing that it is impossible. I work in lifecycle management for military government contracts (not a programmer) and can tell you that we thoroughly test every piece of new software to the point it is bug-free before deployment to the fleet. Why? Because an airborn fighter pilot does not have the high threshold for buggy software that gamers have.
Now, before you jump in with the "government is different blah blah blah," my point is software can be made bug-free prior to release. Do not even try to tell me a piece of game software is any more complex than software designed to track, identify, prioritize and engage multiple boggies at near mach speeds. Software can be made bug-free first time out. It can be done. It won't be done as long as we - as consumers - refuse to demand it. At the very least, our threshold for acceptance should be very high, so that any bugs at release are minor annoyances and are fixed immediately.
An MMO is never finished- this may be true. If so, game companies need to release with fewer but fully functional features and later add new fully functional features as the game matures.
But games CAN be bug-free at launch.
Even you just admitted that consumer software is more than likely buggy. You know the difference here. A piece of military software that is malfunctioning could cost human lives. Not only that, but you are also looking at highly focused testing by people that know exactly what they are looking for. In the "real" world, that test group is not there. I bet half the testers in the games are there for playing the game for free, not for testing. Sure, a game CAN be bug free, but if your just going to let the average joe blow test your apps, they aint going to find these bugs. So, I would say that you would have to put just as much emphasis on the "testers" as you do the companies.
Oh, just as a side note. It has been shown that even military software can be buggy. Just watch the military channel some time. You will see that even jets have had software issues that have cost people their lives. Luckily, a video game having bugs in it, is not a threat to the people that are playing them.
of course it's buggy thats why it's in closed beta. and every mmo is still buggy when launched even WoW was. the real question is will they fix them and how long. for example star wars galaxies was and still very buggy game some have been around for years and some mmo's are pretty stable. this should be expected of any mmo in beta or just launched.
This is a falsehood that needs to be put to rest. I will grant you there may have been no CONSUMER software ever sold bug-free (though I doubt that), but that is again a by-product of consumer conditioning into believing that it is impossible. I work in lifecycle management for military government contracts (not a programmer) and can tell you that we thoroughly test every piece of new software to the point it is bug-free before deployment to the fleet. Why? Because an airborn fighter pilot does not have the high threshold for buggy software that gamers have.
Now, before you jump in with the "government is different blah blah blah," my point is software can be made bug-free prior to release. Do not even try to tell me a piece of game software is any more complex than software designed to track, identify, prioritize and engage multiple boggies at near mach speeds. Software can be made bug-free first time out. It can be done. It won't be done as long as we - as consumers - refuse to demand it. At the very least, our threshold for acceptance should be very high, so that any bugs at release are minor annoyances and are fixed immediately.
An MMO is never finished- this may be true. If so, game companies need to release with fewer but fully functional features and later add new fully functional features as the game matures.
But games CAN be bug-free at launch.
Even you just admitted that consumer software is more than likely buggy. That actually is not what I said, but let's move on.
You know the difference here. A piece of military software that is malfunctioning could cost human lives. Not only that, but you are also looking at highly focused testing by people that know exactly what they are looking for.
Granted. Military software is more mission critical than consumer games. I would not expect the same detail level of testing. The purpose of this very lop-sided comparision is to get out of the mindset that bug-free launches are "impossible" and go with "improbable." As long as we believe it is impossble, there will be no pressure to improve quality.
In the "real" world, that test group is not there. I bet half the testers in the games are there for playing the game for free, not for testing. Sure, a game CAN be bug free, but if your just going to let the average joe blow test your apps, they aint going to find these bugs. So, I would say that you would have to put just as much emphasis on the "testers" as you do the companies.
Great point. So game companies should rethink the whole open beta nonsense (an issue often discussed here). But they won't as long as their bug-riddled and feature-retracted games are huge sellers at launch because people absolutely have to wear that pixalated Star Fleet uniform.
Oh, just as a side note. It has been shown that even military software can be buggy. Just watch the military channel some time. You will see that even jets have had software issues that have cost people their lives. Luckily, a video game having bugs in it, is not a threat to the people that are playing them.
Not being able to speak to specifics, I can imagine bugs in military software, which have lead to the very stringent testing and evaluation requirements we have today. Yet I doubt anyone will argue that, overall, games (MMO or SP) are the most bug-ridden of consumer software. Why aren't game companies taking their quality control more seriously? Could it be because their customers do not demand it? Could it be they are so afraid they will never get the chance to play Captain Krik or Commander Kor if they don't support an incomplete game at full price the very moment it is offered?
No, it should not be expected or accepted.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
You know the difference here. A piece of military software that is malfunctioning could cost human lives. Not only that, but you are also looking at highly focused testing by people that know exactly what they are looking for.
Granted. Military software is more mission critical than consumer games. I would not expect the same detail level of testing. The purpose of this very lop-sided comparision is to get out of the mindset that bug-free launches are "impossible" and go with "improbable." As long as we believe it is impossble, there will be no pressure to improve quality.
This refers to my point below.
In the "real" world, that test group is not there. I bet half the testers in the games are there for playing the game for free, not for testing. Sure, a game CAN be bug free, but if your just going to let the average joe blow test your apps, they aint going to find these bugs. So, I would say that you would have to put just as much emphasis on the "testers" as you do the companies.
Great point. So game companies should rethink the whole open beta nonsense (an issue often discussed here). But they won't as long as their bug-riddled and feature-retracted games are huge sellers at launch because people absolutely have to wear that pixalated Star Fleet uniform.
Yes they should. However it is improbable due to having to pay testers to do just that, test. The problem I feel is three fold. Budget, time constraints being levied onto the developers by outside forces and crappy non paid testers. You have to look no further than Vanguard for all the above. When they ran out of money, the got more publishers, they ran out of money again, got more money, then the demands were set that they must release. Compared to any game out there, I feel they had more content and more of an actual world than any other mmo ever released. But they were not allowed to finish the game, they had to push it out then they ended up selling it to sony. Then it really went to hell. Yet, even this failed game does have a pretty decent following, so in a since, it didnt really fail.
So the chances of going to paid testers in this economy just does not seem like it will happen. People seem to forget the economy sucks right now and badly. My group at my job was a group of 10. Now we are down to 4 and overworked and still will not ever catch up without hiring more people, yet they dont want to, Even if it causes us to fail to meet certain goals. And it continues to get worse every year. Heck, half the people I have to deal with are overseas in india. Many of our own in house apps have been outsourced for programming. So yeah, it could be done. But are we the people willing to pay double or triple for a video game? I serously doubt it.
Oh, just as a side note. It has been shown that even military software can be buggy. Just watch the military channel some time. You will see that even jets have had software issues that have cost people their lives. Luckily, a video game having bugs in it, is not a threat to the people that are playing them.
Not being able to speak to specifics, I can imagine bugs in military software, which have lead to the very stringent testing and evaluation requirements we have today. Yet I doubt anyone will argue that, overall, games (MMO or SP) are the most bug-ridden of consumer software. Why aren't game companies taking their quality control more seriously? Could it be because their customers do not demand it? Could it be they are so afraid they will never get the chance to play Captain Krik or Commander Kor if they don't support an incomplete game at full price the very moment it is offered?
Or it could be that they dont have the funds or man power to do it. Do you want to pay 500 dollars for a video game that is bug free or 50 bucks and put up with some bugs? Someone has to pay for all that extra work and to be honest, I think the game companies feel that we would not pay 500 bucks for a video game. And as most of the world knows, the military or government is not as self concious about paying a lot more for a program or piece of hardware.
to the guy that tests military software till its bug free: you guys have an unlimited budget and no expectations of ever making that money back. consumer software has a very strict programming and testing budget, and has to turn a profit or it wont ever hit the shelves. also i have yet to see a piece of consumer software that could directly get someone killed if it crashes to blue screen.
No, it should not be expected or accepted.
my point is sir is that accepting or not thats the way mmo's have and still are we like it or not. when i say expect as in thats the way it will most likly be. for example just an example mind you. say the 1st of every month stock crashes but rises any other day after many decades people EXPECT it to to so after so long. now my point is sir is we expect it to have bug not because we like or want or accept BUT because thats te way they have been for so long. we can't always expect or accept whatever we can't control. class dismissed.