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Star Trek Online Instancing

Kzang151Kzang151 Member Posts: 149

Is STO really full of instancing? Anyone got any concrete info on this (Such as a notable website or official website?)

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Comments

  • DoomsDay01DoomsDay01 Member UncommonPosts: 781

    Your on one of those web sites. Just read the reviews. They have stated it many times.

  • neorandomneorandom Member Posts: 1,681

     its been stated by cryptic themselves on their website that the game is going to be 1 server such as eve, everyone will pvp with everyone else on 1 team or the other ect.  its also been said its instanced so too many of those people are never crowded into the same place, but grouping with friends is supposed to be intuitive and easy so people can group up to level (game is suppsoed to adjust space battle based on how many allied ships are there and ground away missions you take the place of an npc crewman).  in sto i think instancing will not only work fine but will actually help lower lag and ensure fun play time instead of the old school problems like your mob never being up ect ect.

  • BrannagarBrannagar Member CommonPosts: 72

    From most descriptions it will work pretty much the same as Champions Online, which a few people like but most did not.  I am sure they will tweak it a bit but I am not sure on this point.  I am pretty disappointed that they would take a wide open space and instance the hell out of it but we will see how it works out. 

    image

  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 Member UncommonPosts: 1,431
    Originally posted by Brannagar


    From most descriptions it will work pretty much the same as Champions Online, which a few people like but most did not.  I am sure they will tweak it a bit but I am not sure on this point.  I am pretty disappointed that they would take a wide open space and instance the hell out of it but we will see how it works out. 



     

    With Star Trek, I think the idea of instancing will work better than a wide open universe. It would not be fun to try to reach a planet to respond to a distress call when 250 other players are there responding to the same thing. Wide open space would turn into I5 in LA during rush hour if they even get 100k subs at launch.

     

    It makes more sense to limit PvE space as well as PvP space to create a better experience for the player. Grouping would be with a que or pre made groups for missions and PvP. If would be nice to have space stations larger instances with global chat to set up mission runs. The rest is fine with solo or group instances for PvE and a battleground set up for PvP. Excluding neutral zone PvP.

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • carnage22carnage22 Member Posts: 28

    Instancing sucks, especially in an IP like Star Trek, the whole fun of Star Trek is being surprised by a random event.

  • hanshotfirsthanshotfirst Member UncommonPosts: 712
    Originally posted by carnage22


    Instancing sucks, especially in an IP like Star Trek, the whole fun of Star Trek is being surprised by a random event.

     

    By "random event" you meant a client/server crash from having too many players in one area? You know there's other forms of instancing besides the closed, private variety, right?

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Originally posted by carnage22


    Instancing sucks, especially in an IP like Star Trek, the whole fun of Star Trek is being surprised by a random event.

    It really depends on how large an instance is and how many players each one can hold. A gigantic zone with many players instead of a server works fine. Smaller zones with few players however sucks.

     

  • comerbcomerb Member UncommonPosts: 944

     I'm not going to bother providing you with a link, cause honestly you can do that research for yourself.  However I will say STO is heavily instanced.  In fact, while going down my mental list of MMOs, I can't think of another game thats more heavily instanced.

  • oddjobs74oddjobs74 Member Posts: 526

    I think that when the game releases, if both subscribers are in an area, that it will not cause a crash. After the first free month when the subscriber bases falls to 50% of that, I think they will even have less to worry about. Instancing in this case is silly

  • DoomsDay01DoomsDay01 Member UncommonPosts: 781
    Originally posted by Zorndorf

    Originally posted by comerb


     I'm not going to bother providing you with a link, cause honestly you can do that research for yourself.  However I will say STO is heavily instanced.  In fact, while going down my mental list of MMOs, I can't think of another game thats more heavily instanced.

    Launch ANY episode of the TV series and find me ANY scene with more than 40 people in it.

    ST - the episodes - is   the only Scienc Fiction world that could be played in a theater with 4 or 5 stage settings.

    Very smart move to use the CO engine to capter this.

    Let's see if the makers realized this from the very beginning or just stumbled on it by accident.

    BTW: I don't accept the same instanced settings for any other SF or Fanatsy game, but for ST .... instances ARE ST Lore.

     

    Well, that would depend, are you talking 40 people or 40 ships. There definitely have been scenes with more than 40 ships during the dominion war in ds9. However, I do agree that instancing would seem to fit here very well for missions. But as with COH, COV, CO or DDO, to much instancing really detracts from the MMO experience. I don't mind missions and things like that being instanced but I fully believe that there should be a single central hub for people to meet up at and there not be multiple copies of that central hub. That is my personal opinion though. However, we are talking about a single server here so, having say 100k people playing and having a couple thousand of those in the central hub could easily crash peoples systems if they couldn't handle that much data being transmitted all the time.

  • comerbcomerb Member UncommonPosts: 944
    Originally posted by Zorndorf

    Originally posted by comerb


     I'm not going to bother providing you with a link, cause honestly you can do that research for yourself.  However I will say STO is heavily instanced.  In fact, while going down my mental list of MMOs, I can't think of another game thats more heavily instanced.

    Launch ANY episode of the TV series and find me ANY scene with more than 40 people in it.

    ST - the episodes - is   the only Scienc Fiction world that could be played in a theater with 4 or 5 stage settings.

    Very smart move to use the CO engine to capter this.

    Let's see if the makers realized this from the very beginning or just stumbled on it by accident.

    BTW: I don't accept the same instanced settings for any other SF or Fanatsy game, but for ST .... instances ARE ST Lore.

    I'm not arguing for or against it in Cryptics case.   I were merely commenting on my impression of the game.  I do think you're stretching very far if you actually believe it was a "smart move to use the CO engine to capture this".   It was merely a matter of nessecity.  Eve presents a much better system of allowing for instanced missions w/out compromising  a seamless world(not that it isn't instanced, but it does a damn good job of covering up that instancing).

    Fact is it was a limitation of the engine and the design concept. Instancing allows for fast and cheap development because you don't have to build and code seamless worlds and systems(and the resources necessary to run them). Instancing is always viewed with a sour taste in MMOs... and good developer will generally avoid it when possible.  Honestly, when was the last time you heard someone say "I hate how seemless this world is, I sure do wish there was more instancing in the game."... Never.  

    However, Cryptic is apparently on a very strict timetable per Atari... and heavy instancing was the only possible way to deliver a working product in such a short development cycle.   It's sad in its own way... personally if I was going to make an STO it would be a marriage of Eve, SWG, and DAoC; but I guess a Cryptic STO is better than nothing.  And since those are the two choices we were left with...

     

  • MandyMandy Member Posts: 132

     

     

    Instancing sucks having it at all.  I hated guild wars because of the instancing.  also Lord of the rings online was instanced like guild wars. If this game is instanced like that allot of people won't bother playing it

    Cryptic making it is bad enough as it is with out instancing it.

    I have a feeling this game is going to sink and not swim.

    Keep the instancing to guild wars.

  • MandyMandy Member Posts: 132

     

     

    Instancing like this it should not even be called an online game. I hope they are not going to try to charge a monthly fee to play Star trek.

    It might as well be an offline  with how instancing is.

  • Vato26Vato26 Member Posts: 3,930
    Originally posted by Mandy


     
     
    Instancing sucks having it at all.  I hated guild wars because of the instancing.  also Lord of the rings online was instanced like guild wars.  Really?  I could've sworn a vast majority of LoTRO was open-world, not instanced.  Unlike GW, which ALL of the game is nothing but instances.   If this game is instanced like that allot of people won't bother playing it  I disagree with this, as you don't have a crystal ball to point out the population vs. instancing.  GW was very popular when I used to play it, and it is the game that defined instancing.  And, another game that uses instancing technology quite frequently (for their dungeons and battlegrounds) is WoW, and it is pretty much the king of the MMORPG castle.


    Cryptic making it is bad enough as it is with out instancing it.  Yay, more Cryptic haters.
    I have a feeling this game is going to sink and not swim.  And, I have a feeling that this game will swim and not sink.


    Keep the instancing to guild wars.  Yet, many other games use it today... even WoW.
  • RohnRohn Member UncommonPosts: 3,730
    Originally posted by Vato26

    Originally posted by Mandy


     
     
    Instancing sucks having it at all.  I hated guild wars because of the instancing.  also Lord of the rings online was instanced like guild wars.  Really?  I could've sworn a vast majority of LoTRO was open-world, not instanced.  Unlike GW, which ALL of the game is nothing but instances.   If this game is instanced like that allot of people won't bother playing it  I disagree with this, as you don't have a crystal ball to point out the population vs. instancing.  GW was very popular when I used to play it, and it is the game that defined instancing.  And, another game that uses instancing technology quite frequently (for their dungeons and battlegrounds) is WoW, and it is pretty much the king of the MMORPG castle.


    Cryptic making it is bad enough as it is with out instancing it.  Yay, more Cryptic haters.
    I have a feeling this game is going to sink and not swim.  And, I have a feeling that this game will swim and not sink.


    Keep the instancing to guild wars.  Yet, many other games use it today... even WoW.



     

    I agree.  It's not just instancing that needs to be considered - the enjoyability of this game depends on the concept and design of the game, and how instancing is used to support that design.

    Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Member CommonPosts: 1,096
      if I was going to make an STO it would be a marriage of Eve, SWG, and DAoC; but I guess a Cryptic STO is better than nothing.  And since those are the two choices we were left with...

     

    In a way STO seems like its going to be that way.

    EvE is instanced (or Zoned which is a Public Instance) Each space sector and stations are instanced and the transition between them works smoothly so it doesnt seem instanced.

     

    SWG is also instanced (Public Zone). Each planet is its own instance. Each space sector is a different instance. Then there is Deep Space and Kessel Space.

     

    If Cryptic makes Public Planet and Space areas/zones/instances large (like SWG planet or/and EvE Sector large) while also using small(er) Private instances for solo/group experiences, I think instancing would work perfectly for an ST game.

     

    Instancing isnt a bad thing if used correctly. Its all in the Transition. If you are hitting loading screens constantly it blows the immersion of a seamless world.

    *(check out Fallen Earth is you want to see how seamless and well done instancing can be used)

     

    Where Cryptic FAILS is the DAoC part. They are making Albion (Federation) a content complete (PvE/PvP) faction and Midgard/Hibernia (Klingon) and unlockable PvP only (Monster Play) faction.

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
    Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
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    Following: The Repopulation
    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
    ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  • RohnRohn Member UncommonPosts: 3,730
    Originally posted by PyrateLV

      if I was going to make an STO it would be a marriage of Eve, SWG, and DAoC; but I guess a Cryptic STO is better than nothing.  And since those are the two choices we were left with...

     

    In a way STO seems like its going to be that way.

    EvE is instanced (or Zoned which is a Public Instance) Each space sector and stations are instanced and the transition between them works smoothly so it doesnt seem instanced.

     

    SWG is also instanced (Public Zone). Each planet is its own instance. Each space sector is a different instance. Then there is Deep Space and Kessel Space.

     

    If Cryptic makes Public Planet and Space areas/zones/instances large (like SWG planet or/and EvE Sector large) while also using small(er) Private instances for solo/group experiences, I think instancing would work perfectly for an ST game.

     

    Instancing isnt a bad thing if used correctly. Its all in the Transition. If you are hitting loading screens constantly it blows the immersion of a seamless world.

    *(check out Fallen Earth is you want to see how seamless and well done instancing can be used)

     

    Where Cryptic FAILS is the DAoC part. They are making Albion (Federation) a content complete (PvE/PvP) faction and Midgard/Hibernia (Klingon) and unlockable PvP only (Monster Play) faction.



     

    Good post, but I'd disagree with your final comparison to Klingons in STO and monster play in LOTRO.  From what I've seen, Klingon play will be far more robust than LOTRO's monster play, it isn't 100% PvP right now, and will probably evolve into something more akin to a "full" faction shortly after launch.  Personally, I hope they keep Klingon play very PVP-centric.

    Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  • hanshotfirsthanshotfirst Member UncommonPosts: 712
    Originally posted by comerb
    I'm not arguing for or against it in Cryptics case.   I were merely commenting on my impression of the game.  I do think you're stretching very far if you actually believe it was a "smart move to use the CO engine to capture this".   It was merely a matter of nessecity.  Eve presents a much better system of allowing for instanced missions w/out compromising  a seamless world(not that it isn't instanced, but it does a damn good job of covering up that instancing).
    Fact is it was a limitation of the engine and the design concept. Instancing allows for fast and cheap development because you don't have to build and code seamless worlds and systems(and the resources necessary to run them). Instancing is always viewed with a sour taste in MMOs... and good developer will generally avoid it when possible.  Honestly, when was the last time you heard someone say "I hate how seemless this world is, I sure do wish there was more instancing in the game."... Never.  
    However, Cryptic is apparently on a very strict timetable per Atari... and heavy instancing was the only possible way to deliver a working product in such a short development cycle.   It's sad in its own way... personally if I was going to make an STO it would be a marriage of Eve, SWG, and DAoC; but I guess a Cryptic STO is better than nothing.  And since those are the two choices we were left with...
     

     

    EVE Online has loading screens every time you change a system.



    EVE Online adds the Jita system (the game's primary trading hub) to every new players' avoidance list by default.



    Jita is still *frequently* a major source of lag, server disconnects, and overall performance headaches.



    CCP requests players inform them *beforehand° of any intended large fleet actions.



    Fact is, you can only fit so many players into one area before performance takes a serious hit. This holds true not just for STO or EVE, but *every* multiplayer game. It's a limitation of not just one engine/design concept, but *every* MMO's engine/design concept.



    All the wishful thinking or righteous indignation in the world isn't gonna change that.

  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 Member UncommonPosts: 1,431

    With regards to loading screens and STO. It seems that it would fit well in the IP. You will be in warp drive when you go from sector to sector. You ship should just disapear in the distance then reapear in the sector you were traveling to. That makes sence to me.


    The other is beaming a crew to a planet. Again you are going to disapear off the pad then re-apear on the planet bad vise versa. That will also fit well.


    The other is a que for PvP. Again, when you get the button to join a battle. You should enter warp drive ans head to the PvP spot.


    If any game had an IP designed where instancing makes sence. STO is the game and it should work well.

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • comerbcomerb Member UncommonPosts: 944
    Originally posted by PyrateLV

      if I was going to make an STO it would be a marriage of Eve, SWG, and DAoC; but I guess a Cryptic STO is better than nothing.  And since those are the two choices we were left with...

     

    In a way STO seems like its going to be that way.

    EvE is instanced (or Zoned which is a Public Instance) Each space sector and stations are instanced and the transition between them works smoothly so it doesnt seem instanced.

     

    SWG is also instanced (Public Zone). Each planet is its own instance. Each space sector is a different instance. Then there is Deep Space and Kessel Space.

     

    If Cryptic makes Public Planet and Space areas/zones/instances large (like SWG planet or/and EvE Sector large) while also using small(er) Private instances for solo/group experiences, I think instancing would work perfectly for an ST game.

     

    Instancing isnt a bad thing if used correctly. Its all in the Transition. If you are hitting loading screens constantly it blows the immersion of a seamless world.

    *(check out Fallen Earth is you want to see how seamless and well done instancing can be used)

     

    Where Cryptic FAILS is the DAoC part. They are making Albion (Federation) a content complete (PvE/PvP) faction and Midgard/Hibernia (Klingon) and unlockable PvP only (Monster Play) faction.

     

    It's really not the same in STO as it is in Eve and SWG, for reasons I'm not going to go in to.  Open beta isn't too far off, so you'll see it for yourself.

     

    I agree instancing can be well done and contribute to a game.  However you need look no farther than CO to get a concept of how STO instancing is handled... except to the nth degree.

  • AevenathAevenath Member UncommonPosts: 115

    Yay one MMORPG I'm not buying. Saves me a little money... now for the other 6 or so that are coming out soon. 80 bucks a month for all of them ftw?

  • comerbcomerb Member UncommonPosts: 944
    Originally posted by hanshotfirst

    Originally posted by comerb
    I'm not arguing for or against it in Cryptics case.   I were merely commenting on my impression of the game.  I do think you're stretching very far if you actually believe it was a "smart move to use the CO engine to capture this".   It was merely a matter of nessecity.  Eve presents a much better system of allowing for instanced missions w/out compromising  a seamless world(not that it isn't instanced, but it does a damn good job of covering up that instancing).
    Fact is it was a limitation of the engine and the design concept. Instancing allows for fast and cheap development because you don't have to build and code seamless worlds and systems(and the resources necessary to run them). Instancing is always viewed with a sour taste in MMOs... and good developer will generally avoid it when possible.  Honestly, when was the last time you heard someone say "I hate how seemless this world is, I sure do wish there was more instancing in the game."... Never.  
    However, Cryptic is apparently on a very strict timetable per Atari... and heavy instancing was the only possible way to deliver a working product in such a short development cycle.   It's sad in its own way... personally if I was going to make an STO it would be a marriage of Eve, SWG, and DAoC; but I guess a Cryptic STO is better than nothing.  And since those are the two choices we were left with...
     

     

    EVE Online has loading screens every time you change a system.



    EVE Online adds the Jita system (the game's primary trading hub) to every new players' avoidance list by default.



    Jita is still *frequently* a major source of lag, server disconnects, and overall performance headaches.



    CCP requests players inform them *beforehand° of any intended large fleet actions.



    Fact is, you can only fit so many players into one area before performance takes a serious hit. This holds true not just for STO or EVE, but *every* multiplayer game. It's a limitation of not just one engine/design concept, but *every* MMO's engine/design concept.



    All the wishful thinking or righteous indignation in the world isn't gonna change that.

     

    If you jump to Jita, you are in Jita.  There is no Jita#2,Jita#3, Jita#4.  The loading screens, while annoying, aren't the real killer of instancing.  The fracturing of the world is.

    CCP is willing to throw the money for technology, hardware, and coding that makes that possible.  They provide players with a singular world, and they don't compromise the integrity of that world for what would be cheaper, easier, or faster.  

    Imagine if they had taken the Cryptic route.  Eve wouldn't be nearly as successful as it is today.  Now like I said, I don't think Cryptic had much choice in the matter... but thats besides the point.

    *as a side note, I haven't  experienced problems in Jita for about 6 months... since the last overhaul they did on it.  And it requires massive fleets to start putting even a chink in Eve's  playability.  A testament to good programming and not being cheap with your hardware.

     

  • comerbcomerb Member UncommonPosts: 944

    I'm not arguing for or against it in Cryptics case.   I were merely commenting on my impression of the game.  I do think you're stretching very far if you actually believe it was a "smart move to use the CO engine to capture this".   It was merely a matter of nessecity.  Eve presents a much better system of allowing for instanced missions w/out compromising  a seamless world(not that it isn't instanced, but it does a damn good job of covering up that instancing).
    Fact is it was a limitation of the engine and the design concept. Instancing allows for fast and cheap development because you don't have to build and code seamless worlds and systems(and the resources necessary to run them). Instancing is always viewed with a sour taste in MMOs... and good developer will generally avoid it when possible.  Honestly, when was the last time you heard someone say "I hate how seemless this world is, I sure do wish there was more instancing in the game."... Never.  
    However, Cryptic is apparently on a very strict timetable per Atari... and heavy instancing was the only possible way to deliver a working product in such a short development cycle.   It's sad in its own way... personally if I was going to make an STO it would be a marriage of Eve, SWG, and DAoC; but I guess a Cryptic STO is better than nothing.  And since those are the two choices we were left with...
     

    Simple one liner to counter your reasoning ....:

     

    "Beam me up Scotty".

    It's the ultimate transport in ST and the ultimate instance mechanism. So yeah, the cryptic engine is good to represent it.

    ST the TV series was ALWAYS about filming SF with a (very) limited budget. For once I don't care about too much instances.

    I won't accept it in most other games. But for ST the MMO,  it isn't even a disadvantage.

     

    Um ok.  I thought the concept of an MMO was to bring a world to life?  Not to replicate the feel of a cheaply produced TV series. Sorry, but ultimately I'd rather have a singular Startrek universe to play around it.  Naturally instancing becomes important in the cases of starbases, planets, different solar systems, etc.. but if I'm on Risa... I want to be on Risa with everyone else in the game thats on Risa.  I don't want to be on Risa #52.  

    Like I said in a previous post, loading times aren't really that big of a deal.  It's pretty much of a necessity in Space games because of the very nature of space, and the necessary transitions from space>planets>stations etc.  But the fracturing of the world, Cryptic style,  is definitely a negative thing.

  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 Member UncommonPosts: 1,431

    STO would never work with the open sandbox style of EVE. They want to deliver this game as the TV series did. In missions for each captain solo or in small groups for PvE. That type of quest system would not work in an open world. Nor would it make any sence at all like EVE does for it's style.


    The PvP side will be some limited open space, but mainly a bunch of battlegrounds. They are going for a different style of game. I am looking forword to playing just because it is different from what I normally play. To each his own, but many players will be playing just for the Star Trek IP. With one server only, they can do just fine with around 100k.


    EVE is a great game for it's style. STO will not be going down that road and I am glad they won't.

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by comerb


    I'm not arguing for or against it in Cryptics case.   I were merely commenting on my impression of the game.  I do think you're stretching very far if you actually believe it was a "smart move to use the CO engine to capture this".   It was merely a matter of nessecity.  Eve presents a much better system of allowing for instanced missions w/out compromising  a seamless world(not that it isn't instanced, but it does a damn good job of covering up that instancing).
    Fact is it was a limitation of the engine and the design concept. Instancing allows for fast and cheap development because you don't have to build and code seamless worlds and systems(and the resources necessary to run them). Instancing is always viewed with a sour taste in MMOs... and good developer will generally avoid it when possible.  Honestly, when was the last time you heard someone say "I hate how seemless this world is, I sure do wish there was more instancing in the game."... Never.  
    However, Cryptic is apparently on a very strict timetable per Atari... and heavy instancing was the only possible way to deliver a working product in such a short development cycle.   It's sad in its own way... personally if I was going to make an STO it would be a marriage of Eve, SWG, and DAoC; but I guess a Cryptic STO is better than nothing.  And since those are the two choices we were left with...
     

    Simple one liner to counter your reasoning ....:

     

    "Beam me up Scotty".

    It's the ultimate transport in ST and the ultimate instance mechanism. So yeah, the cryptic engine is good to represent it.

    ST the TV series was ALWAYS about filming SF with a (very) limited budget. For once I don't care about too much instances.

    I won't accept it in most other games. But for ST the MMO,  it isn't even a disadvantage.

     

    Um ok.  I thought the concept of an MMO was to bring a world to life?  Not to replicate the feel of a cheaply produced TV series. Sorry, but ultimately I'd rather have a singular Startrek universe to play around it.  Naturally instancing becomes important in the cases of starbases, planets, different solar systems, etc.. but if I'm on Risa... I want to be on Risa with everyone else in the game thats on Risa.  I don't want to be on Risa #52.  

    Like I said in a previous post, loading times aren't really that big of a deal.  It's pretty much of a necessity in Space games because of the very nature of space, and the necessary transitions from space>planets>stations etc.  But the fracturing of the world, Cryptic style,  is definitely a negative thing.

     

    You are wrong. The concept of MMO has changed. The idea is to make a fun game with a heavy MP component.

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