You could respec when necessary to bring different skills to different activities, but you'd be forced to choose and if you put too much in one area, you'd be limited in some others.
That's a cool idea. It's DIY but not OP. It's also sufficiently complex that L2P means knowing how to build a character for good performance, else you get a gimp build.
Ken
www.ActionMMORPG.com One man, a small pile of money, and the screwball idea of a DIY Indie MMORPG? Yep, that's him. ~sigh~
Example: You can't use holy magic if you are a dark magic practitioner because <insert funny lore reason here>.
And to compensate, make Dark Magic a huge school with branches such as Necromancy, Blood Magic, etc.
You won't have a retarded good-for-all class, but you'll still have some choices.
Absolutely! I'm not against choices (they're a pain to design but fun to play). Really the only problem I see with a hypothetical unlimited full freedom system is that nothing would beat a full tank-mage-healer, and so that's all that anyone wold play.
Ken
www.ActionMMORPG.com One man, a small pile of money, and the screwball idea of a DIY Indie MMORPG? Yep, that's him. ~sigh~
Also class obession is to help the people who don't know how to play. I forgot to say that earlier and don't feel like editing my post. It's plain and simple, if you have classes it's simpler to make it so people don't gimp themselves. By this i mean if you're a magic caster you don't have a max defense skill or something else that's silly. By doing it with classes that are set in stone morons can't gimp themselves.
I'm not saying the average mmo player is a moron but honeslty not enough of the casual market even knows how to play their class. So giving them all of these options would make them very oddly done. You'd have people who were trying to be tanks with almost no defense skill, but had a shit ton of mana and some weak heal spell and also they'd have a fireball spell. But their melee defense and attack would suck. But they're wearing plate armor even though their character shouldn't be wearing it and they're being gimped b/c of it.
I imagine, in the future, someone will create a system where you can craft/discover your own spells and make your own fighting techniques.
Of course, you'll still have some preset models(and even preset but flexible names, mostly to prevent stuff like SEXYBOLT, LOLFIRE, etc) but the flexibility will be (hopefully) high enough to prevent people doing the same bland cookie-cutter setups.
Depending on how the game mechanics work, this model would be succesful if numbers wouldn't matter that much(and by numbers I mean damage, etc) and offer interesting effects instead.
Yeah, it will still be an illusion,but a far better one than a preset school-based and class-based MMO.
Cookier cutter builds are here to stay. As long as there's the internet and if a game becomes popular they'll exist. HUGE guides on how to get the best builds and explore this to have this build. There'll be the best build for all of the holy trinity. There'll be a "cookier cutter" melee dps, magic dps, melee tank, and healer builds all done and ready for everyone. No matter how hard you try, cookie cutter builds will come up and they will become prevelant and as a designer the only thing they can do is to try to do is to make sure that they make the differences in differnet "builds" as little as possible.
Yes, there will be cookie-cutter setups, but it would be far more interesting to see Joe the average player trying to create the most cookie-cutter spells and abilities, especially if the quests/materials/dungeons for doing that are very difficult.
In many games, it's easy to go with a cookie-cutter spec because well...they are very straightforward.You just level up a certain skill by grinding or click a few times and create the uber build.
Classes shouldn't be defined, neither should they favor hybrid of all types. they should have it skill based favoring the training of few skills. Example: There are 7 skills. Fire Water Earth Wind Lightning Sand Void You get skill points by gaining xp. 1 skill point to lvl from 1-5 2 skill points to lvl from 6 -10 3 skill points to lvl from 11 - 15 and so on.
Now to learn a new skill point you would have to pay X (= Your current amount of already learned skills) +1, so it would be X +1. The first few skills you first learn will be fairly cheap, but as you keep getting more and more, these will end up beign alot more expensive than leveling your current skills. If you learned Fire and Water (2 skills learned) then it would be X+1 (X equals 2), 2 + 1= 3 skill points to learn say Earth, and when you wan to learn wind it would cost 3 + 1 = 4, then for lightning it would be 5, then 6 for sand and 7 for void.
This would favor hybrid but not to that extent.
If anyone read my post, I pretty much think that would be the best solution.
If necessary put a limit on skills so players don't get their abilities way too spread out and pathetic.
Lets see if someone finds a flaw here. And don't give me that you can't practice both light and dark magic nonsense, because that would really be a good role play character, with 2 minds or souls .
I also doubt you can make your own spells in the near future, there is no way to censor and I doubt it would promote sticking to the game's current story...
Classes are more popular/wanted then classless games (check how sandbox games and fantasy mmorpgs are in popularity)
Well, the majority(read all) sandbox games are designed by indie companies and arent on the same quality level that the multi million dollar productions that companies behind fantasy MMORPG's make.
Well yes it would be alot harder like i said. It'd still happen and yes it would definately be interesting as a developer watching the players posting "the best dps build ever" in the forums. And then laughing as people tear it apart once someone else has a new one. It'd be very nice to have and see.
I'm always all for nonclass systems. I like hwo tes did it, they gave you template classes so that you could have something incase you didn't feel good enough to make your own class. I'd ilke a system like that or like d&d where you could make your own classes. Yes there was a ton of balance but it'd be nice to see in an mmo.
Classes are more popular/wanted then classless games (check how sandbox games and fantasy mmorpgs are in popularity)
Well, the majority(read all) sandbox games are designed by indie companies and arent on the same quality level that the multi million dollar productions that companies behind fantasy MMORPG's make.
And that makes them not in the Minority how?
Last I heard:
{
Main Entry: minority
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: an outnumbered group
Synonyms:
less than half, opposition, splinter group, the few, the outnumbered, the outvoted
}
Now, there are not that many big companies, but there are many indie companies so they are not outnumbered by the big ones, so they would be effectively not the minority.
Classes shouldn't be viewed as a confinement, just a way to help players make choices. Any good skill based system would have severe limitations on what combinations were allowed anyway, and then you're back to classes with variations.
MMO's don't need MORE self sufficient players, they need less. A lot less. This whole "let everyone be able to do everything as long as they got stupendous amounts of time to put in it" philosophy has backfired in a big way. Enter pointless solo play MMOs.
Classes are more popular/wanted then classless games (check how sandbox games and fantasy mmorpgs are in popularity)
Well, the majority(read all) sandbox games are designed by indie companies and arent on the same quality level that the multi million dollar productions that companies behind fantasy MMORPG's make.
And that makes them not in the Minority how?
Last I heard:
{
Main Entry: minority
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: an outnumbered group
Synonyms:
less than half, opposition, splinter group, the few, the outnumbered, the outvoted
}
Now, there are not that many big companies, but there are many indie companies so they are not outnumbered by the big ones, so they would be effectively not the minority.
You guys missed his point entirely. He wasn't refuting the fact that Sandbox games are less popular than the Standard Fantasy model that exists today. He was making the point that you can't compare the 2 because Sandbox games are made by companies that have far less money. The big companies have much more money, so the chances of producing a quality game and marketing it so a lot of people hear about it/try it are higher.
Now you just look dumb for not figuring that out on your own. Reading comprehension? What's that?
_________________________________ "Fixed it. Because that wall of text attacked me, killed me and looted my body..." -George "sniperg" Light
I imagine, in the future, someone will create a system where you can craft/discover your own spells and make your own fighting techniques.
Of course, you'll still have some preset models(and even preset but flexible names, mostly to prevent stuff like SEXYBOLT, LOLFIRE, etc) but the flexibility will be (hopefully) high enough to prevent people doing the same bland cookie-cutter setups.
Depending on how the game mechanics work, this model would be succesful if numbers wouldn't matter that much(and by numbers I mean damage, etc) and offer interesting effects instead.
Yeah, it will still be an illusion,but a far better one than a preset school-based and class-based MMO.
Cookier cutter builds are here to stay. As long as there's the internet and if a game becomes popular they'll exist. HUGE guides on how to get the best builds and explore this to have this build. There'll be the best build for all of the holy trinity. There'll be a "cookier cutter" melee dps, magic dps, melee tank, and healer builds all done and ready for everyone. No matter how hard you try, cookie cutter builds will come up and they will become prevelant and as a designer the only thing they can do is to try to do is to make sure that they make the differences in differnet "builds" as little as possible.
Yes, there will be cookie-cutter setups, but it would be far more interesting to see Joe the average player trying to create the most cookie-cutter spells and abilities, especially if the quests/materials/dungeons for doing that are very difficult.
In many games, it's easy to go with a cookie-cutter spec because well...they are very straightforward.You just level up a certain skill by grinding or click a few times and create the uber build.
With the right constraints, ability customization could be quite fun. From what I saw of Diablo 3's upcoming system, it's goin to let you mod existing abilities in interesting ways.
It's when you take the step from Customization to Creation that things get completely out of hand. Oblivion's spell creator is completely open to exploitation and therefore reasonably amusing in a singleplayer game (because players enjoy experimenting to discover those completely broken, vastly overpowered combinations), yet a horrible idea for a multiplayer game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
There are two fundamentals to a skill based game that makes them stand out:
Incremental advancement. Level based games have this giant bar that takes forever to fill. You grind you grind and you grind and nothing happens until that bar gets full. If a full day is spent on grinding all for 25% of the bar, it doesn't feel all that exciting. In fact, it's downright boring. With a skill based system, while grinding a player can at least see individual skills going up and improving and see small improvements, if only to let him kill the stuff he was killing slightly faster along the way to what would be the next class-oriented level. It makes a big difference when playing.
Alt-consolidation. Customization has been harped on a lot by other posters, so I'll point out a benefit similar to the customization argument. If someone starts out as a warrior and decides they don't want to do magic, they can still keep their existing character and even their existing warrior durability and start slinging spells. Not having to go back to square 1 to try a different play style is the most important feature. They are not forced into replaying what is ultimately the tutorial area. They do not need to re-run quests to unlock areas or stand a chance in later game content. They do not need to re-prove themselves to NPCs.
These things make for huge improvements over class-based games of old, making the grind slightly less grindy and also eliminating the grind associated with creating alts to explore different aspects of the game.
Sorry I guess I got lost in 3 walls of text and just made a direct answer to the question instead of him making a more comprehensive question on its own.
Totally my fault and not his. He shouldn't make questions which require previous information which is barely readable for someone who just joined the conversation.
This is one of the factors why people sometimes fail at communicating.
Both have their own set of advantages and disadvantages. Neither is clearly better at all things.
Skill systems are versatile, allow a lot of freedom, empower the player, and have some amount of balance by nature of being equal for all players. They are also counterproductive to roles, more vulnerable to flavor of the month builds, and in the long run can hurt replayability since it can seem 'samey' in theme.
Classes are essentially the opposite. They enforce roles which can have a positive effect on group activities and social aspects of a game. One of the biggest benefits is an adherance to theme. Everything specific to that class can have a unified look and feel. Druids can look like druids, necromancers can look like necromancers, instead of everyone using their abilities from the same pool and looking fairly similar or worse, looking vastly different than their skill set would indicate.
In board gaming its called 'variable player powers' and is a solid game mechanic. Everyone has the same goals and challenges, but each player is limited to a different set of rules, strengths, and weaknesses. It can make for a much more interesting and varied play experience if done right. It lets each class break the rules in a different way. It lets each class be overpowered in its own way. A skill based system can't have that kind of diversity because there isn't anything preventing a player from being overpowered in every way or breaking all the rules, which takes a lot of the 'game' out of the game.
Personally, I think there is enough middle ground that you could have an open skill based system with enough class-like restrictions on it to make in both flexible and interesting. I have yet to see any game accomplish this but I am relatively certain that its possible.
Its odd that the most flexible character development system that I have ever experienced in any MMORPG is a class based system. That would be D&D Online. Its also interesting that the most bland boring and generic system I have ever seen in a MMORPG was a purely skill based system. That would be those GM Plate wearing spell casters running around shouting Corp Por without an ounce of diversity in UO.
Sorry I guess I got lost in 3 walls of text and just made a direct answer to the question instead of him making a more comprehensive question on its own. Totally my fault and not his. He shouldn't make questions which require previous information which is barely readable for someone who just joined the conversation. This is one of the factors why people sometimes fail at communicating.
Next time, ask if you're confused. Don't make snide remarks about something you don't understand. Any intelligent person could have seen where he was going with that. I guess maybe you just got pigeonholed into a class that doesn't interpret things very well and I decided to pick the skills that would be advantageous as someone that reads text throughout the day.
Hmm...
_________________________________ "Fixed it. Because that wall of text attacked me, killed me and looted my body..." -George "sniperg" Light
There actually isn't much difference between classes and skills.
Why? Because players create classes from skill-based games.
World of Warcraft gives more skill-based character development than UO ever did.
In WoW, there are not only numerous classes, but multiple talent trees, gear styles, etc. which entirely define those classes. A paladin,priest, or shaman could be DPS or Healer! A warrior can pick almost any weapon he wants, 2h, DW, 1h/shield.
In EQ2, the same applies. AA points allow players to be a fencer (bonuses to only using 1h swords WITHOUT a shield) a knight (bonuses only when on a mount) etc etc.
In UO?
EVERYONE was either a Warrior, a Mage, or a Thief.
EVERYONE was required to have these skills.
Weapon Skill (Swords, Fencing, Macing, Archery) or Magic
Anatomy or Eval Int
Tactics or Meditation
Healing or Magery
The choices were very minimal after the fact. As a mage, a tamer, a bard, or a warrior- you were limited to only a very FEW amount of other skills.
Warriors differentiated with these choices: (1 Weapon Skill, Anatomy, Tactics, Healing 4 out of 7 skills)
BARD (Stopping all combat, Cause monsters to attack each other)
Basically, you picked TWO of those classes, or 1 of those classes and 1/2 of another classes.
WARRIOR + 1/2 Mage
Mage + Tamer
Bard + Warrior
Bard + Mage
Warrior + 1/2 Thief
SKILL BASED GAMES HAVE CLASSES- you just can multiclass sometimes.
WoW, EQ2, and many other class based MMORPG's do pretty much the exact same thing. A priest can be healer + mage. A shaman can be dps + healer. A paladin can be tank + healer. A bard gets turned into 1/2 rogue + bard (Vanguard) or a Cleric (Tank + Healer, Vanguard)
IN DARKFALL- the other skill based game, EVERYONE is: MAGE + WARRIOR + ARCHER + CRAFTER. No one is going to be caught dead without at least TWO of the THREE combat classes. All good players have ALL THREE.
1. I want plate armor for the best protection 2. I want a two handed weapon for good dps 3. I want mana efficient ranged dps spell casting, or maybe a weapon like a rocket launcher 4. A good self-heal is a must have 5. I want a pet to off-tank for me 6. I want good crowd control skills, like a stun 7. I want a decent close-up AOE for pesky zergs 8. I want some sort of aggro-breaker, so I can feign and have enemies walk off so I don't have to die.
Classes are obsolete because I can't do all this in a system that has classes.
Ken edit: funny, but doesn't that look a lot like a DK?
You seem to base this off a game that has a skill system akin to that of Darkfall. I don't think you're familiar with limitations and restrictions.
There actually isn't much difference between classes and skills.
Why? Because players create classes from skill-based games.
World of Warcraft gives more skill-based character development than UO ever did.
In WoW, there are not only numerous classes, but multiple talent trees, gear styles, etc. which entirely define those classes. A paladin,priest, or shaman could be DPS or Healer! A warrior can pick almost any weapon he wants, 2h, DW, 1h/shield.
In EQ2, the same applies. AA points allow players to be a fencer (bonuses to only using 1h swords WITHOUT a shield) a knight (bonuses only when on a mount) etc etc. In UO? EVERYONE was either a Warrior, a Mage, or a Thief.
EVERYONE was required to have these skills.
Weapon Skill (Swords, Fencing, Macing, Archery) or Magic
Anatomy or Eval Int
Tactics or Meditation
Healing or Magery
The choices were very minimal after the fact. As a mage, a tamer, a bard, or a warrior- you were limited to only a very FEW amount of other skills. Warriors differentiated with these choices: (1 Weapon Skill, Anatomy, Tactics, Healing 4 out of 7 skills) Choose 3 of: Hiding, 2nd weapon skill, 3rd weapon skill, Parry (Shields), Magery, Stealing, Taming/Veterinary.
Before things changed, almost everyone was WARRIOR STATS: 100 STR, 100 DEX, 25 INT
MAGE STAT: 100 STR, 25 DEX, 100 INT Sometimes a little more INT for a Warrior with some "magic" but eh.
Honestly, there were these classes in Ultima Online, and you could pick only TWO MAGE (Magery + DMG Increasers + Mediation)
WARRIOR (Wpn Skill + DMG Increasers + Parry)
THIEF (Stealing, Hiding, Moving while Hiding, Poisoning)
BARD (Stopping all combat, Cause monsters to attack each other)
Basically, you picked TWO of those classes, or 1 of those classes and 1/2 of another classes. WARRIOR + 1/2 Mage
Mage + Tamer
Bard + Warrior
Bard + Mage
Warrior + 1/2 Thief
SKILL BASED GAMES HAVE CLASSES- you just can multiclass sometimes. WoW, EQ2, and many other class based MMORPG's do pretty much the exact same thing. A priest can be healer + mage. A shaman can be dps + healer. A paladin can be tank + healer. A bard gets turned into 1/2 rogue + bard (Vanguard) or a Cleric (Tank + Healer, Vanguard)
IN DARKFALL- the other skill based game, EVERYONE is: MAGE + WARRIOR + ARCHER + CRAFTER. No one is going to be caught dead without at least TWO of the THREE combat classes. All good players have ALL THREE.
You're wrong and I'm not going to waste any time explaining why because it would all go right over your head.
There actually isn't much difference between classes and skills.
Why? Because players create classes from skill-based games.
World of Warcraft gives more skill-based character development than UO ever did.
In WoW, there are not only numerous classes, but multiple talent trees, gear styles, etc. which entirely define those classes. A paladin,priest, or shaman could be DPS or Healer! A warrior can pick almost any weapon he wants, 2h, DW, 1h/shield.
In EQ2, the same applies. AA points allow players to be a fencer (bonuses to only using 1h swords WITHOUT a shield) a knight (bonuses only when on a mount) etc etc. In UO? EVERYONE was either a Warrior, a Mage, or a Thief.
EVERYONE was required to have these skills.
Weapon Skill (Swords, Fencing, Macing, Archery) or Magic
Anatomy or Eval Int
Tactics or Meditation
Healing or Magery
The choices were very minimal after the fact. As a mage, a tamer, a bard, or a warrior- you were limited to only a very FEW amount of other skills. Warriors differentiated with these choices: (1 Weapon Skill, Anatomy, Tactics, Healing 4 out of 7 skills) Choose 3 of: Hiding, 2nd weapon skill, 3rd weapon skill, Parry (Shields), Magery, Stealing, Taming/Veterinary.
Before things changed, almost everyone was WARRIOR STATS: 100 STR, 100 DEX, 25 INT
MAGE STAT: 100 STR, 25 DEX, 100 INT Sometimes a little more INT for a Warrior with some "magic" but eh.
Honestly, there were these classes in Ultima Online, and you could pick only TWO MAGE (Magery + DMG Increasers + Mediation)
WARRIOR (Wpn Skill + DMG Increasers + Parry)
THIEF (Stealing, Hiding, Moving while Hiding, Poisoning)
BARD (Stopping all combat, Cause monsters to attack each other)
Basically, you picked TWO of those classes, or 1 of those classes and 1/2 of another classes. WARRIOR + 1/2 Mage
Mage + Tamer
Bard + Warrior
Bard + Mage
Warrior + 1/2 Thief
SKILL BASED GAMES HAVE CLASSES- you just can multiclass sometimes. WoW, EQ2, and many other class based MMORPG's do pretty much the exact same thing. A priest can be healer + mage. A shaman can be dps + healer. A paladin can be tank + healer. A bard gets turned into 1/2 rogue + bard (Vanguard) or a Cleric (Tank + Healer, Vanguard)
IN DARKFALL- the other skill based game, EVERYONE is: MAGE + WARRIOR + ARCHER + CRAFTER. No one is going to be caught dead without at least TWO of the THREE combat classes. All good players have ALL THREE.
You're wrong and I'm not going to waste any time explaining why because it would all go right over your head.
Or in other words,
"You're right, and I can prove it because I have no real response to that other than to call you an idiot because you disagreed with me and used evidence to back it up. F@#$@ ;YOU!!!!!!!!"
:
UO is entirely a class based game, which allows for multi-classing. There are 5 classes, and you're allowed 1 1/2 to 2 of them.
DF is entirely a 1 class based game, which EVERYONE is ALL 3 classes.
DDO allows for up to THREE classes.
WoW, EQ2, and other MMORPGS have multiple classes, and allow for specialization in those classes, providing a lot of diversity and often switching or multi-classing roles all together.
What other skill based game is there, where there are not classes, and everyone isn't allowed to be everything?
UO is entirely a class based game, which allows for multi-classing. There are 5 classes, and you're allowed 1 1/2 to 2 of them.
DF is entirely a 1 class based game, which EVERYONE is ALL 3 classes. DDO allows for up to THREE classes.
WoW, EQ2, and other MMORPGS have multiple classes, and allow for specialization in those classes, providing a lot of diversity and often switching or multi-classing roles all together. What other skill based game is there, where there are not classes, and everyone isn't allowed to be everything?
I agree, but you're using 'classes' and 'roles' for the same thing. They aren't necessarily the same thing. Its just a matter of semantics though.
A WoW Paladin for example can be a tank, dps, or healer. That is quite a bit of flexibility for a class based game. Skill based games start to get boring and generic when a single character is able to fill every role. That is probably its greatest shortcoming. To address this, they add restrictions. Then you start on the slippery slope between pure skill based (like Darkfall) and pure class based (like Aion). A completely restricted skill based system IS class based. You can loosen it up some and add some flexibility, but once you get to the point of unlimited flexibility you're back to a skill based system. Its not really a black and white issue as many people are trying to make it into.
I did understand the question HE made, not the one he intended to communicate towards us. I had no idea he intended to ask a question he didn't even mention.
To whoever said class system and skill based are the same
What if I want to be a Mage + Thieft + Warrior?
You can;t do that in a class system, but you can in a skill based system.
Skill based system with effective tutorial and limitations > Everything you can think of.
A simple tutorial which can recommend a certain build is just as effective as a classed based system, plus class system separates community a lot in terms of gameplay. Last I heard an MMO is about the community.
UO is entirely a class based game, which allows for multi-classing. There are 5 classes, and you're allowed 1 1/2 to 2 of them.
DF is entirely a 1 class based game, which EVERYONE is ALL 3 classes. DDO allows for up to THREE classes.
WoW, EQ2, and other MMORPGS have multiple classes, and allow for specialization in those classes, providing a lot of diversity and often switching or multi-classing roles all together. What other skill based game is there, where there are not classes, and everyone isn't allowed to be everything?
I agree, but you're using 'classes' and 'roles' for the same thing. They aren't necessarily the same thing. Its just a matter of semantics though.
A WoW Paladin for example can be a tank, dps, or healer. That is quite a bit of flexibility for a class based game. Skill based games start to get boring and generic when a single character is able to fill every role. That is probably its greatest shortcoming. To address this, they add restrictions. Then you start on the slippery slope between pure skill based (like Darkfall) and pure class based (like Aion). A completely restricted skill based system IS class based. You can loosen it up some and add some flexibility, but once you get to the point of unlimited flexibility you're back to a skill based system. Its not really a black and white issue as many people are trying to make it into.
what kind of restrictions are you imagining?, I think you are way behind my page here.
The more different skills you get, the less effective they are and the less likely you will be able to fill the role of such skill.
Skill based system allow you to build your specific class over time, be it specialized, dual or you went for too many and now your character can;t do anything right do to him spreading his abilities too far.
Then you haven't made a meaningful decision at all. You are looking to avoid meaningful decisions and have essentially bypassed one of the fundamental tenants of gaming. Also, choosing to be a generic mish-mash of all roles has no context without having class based games to give it any meaning. Without class based gaming you wouldn't be a Mage + Theif + Warrior, instead you would just be a 'character' that, in the end, is just like everyone else. You would be playing a class based game with only one class.
what matters most is the player's ability to have fun and play the way they want to play, and I think classes get in the way of that. I wouldn't say entirely skill-based like Darkfall though is an optimal system either, because everyone can do everything and that's no good either. Really I think the best system is a design your own class where you get a certain amount of points to pick various skills from a list, and a limited amount of points to choose your starting dexterity and stuff. "build your own class"
* ORIGINAL POST EDITED down to just the things i wanted to comment on.
let me comment on the last sentence first, since this is the main point i replied to this thread.....
try Rubies Of Eventide. or at least read about its class system
it seems to me like you are class obsessed cuz you don't think its good to be classless. maybe you just worded the title of your thread haphazardly, and that's really not your point (whether people are class obsessed or not).
i agree with that first statement that players should be able to play the way they want, and that classes get in the way of that. which is why i like that aspect of Darkfall. but it seems like you go on to contradict yourself, by saying its not good that everybody can do everything. if your primary goal is realism (then making games that are supposed to be FUN was the wrong career path for you), then sure, it makes sense to limit players. cuz nobody can be a football star, rock star, professor, painter, teacher, house wife, brain surgeon, rocket scientist all in one lifetime. blah blah blah. for a FUN based game however.....
now FORCING people to do everything is a whole different ballgame. thats an extreme mistake, and unfortunately Darkfall undoes itself by committing that criime. THAT IS NOT INHERRENT IN CLASSLESS SYSTEMS THO. its just a specific, incredibly stupid thing the Darkfall devs have done. i've never done gathering/crafting in games before because i hate it, and yet....unless i wanna have an inferior character..... i'm FORCED to tradeskill in Darkfall. and not just ONE craft but pretty much ALL of them. therefore a good majority of my time in DF is pure progress bar grind to support the small percentage of the time i can participate in the very fun combat. because all the crafts raise various stats. that's the #1 worse thing about the game to me, and the main reason i only subscribed one month. people who only wanted to play melee would hate Darkfall cuz they are forced to do archery or spellcasting part of the time in order to be competitive.
DF does do many things right, and is very unique therefore i've subscribed another month recently, but its back to the love/hate fun/but-grindy-as-hell-grind. grrrrr! please somebody make a game with all its strengths and no grind! definitely can't take more than a month at a time (and not even play the whole month this time probably).
Comments
That's a cool idea. It's DIY but not OP. It's also sufficiently complex that L2P means knowing how to build a character for good performance, else you get a gimp build.
Ken
www.ActionMMORPG.com
One man, a small pile of money, and the screwball idea of a DIY Indie MMORPG? Yep, that's him. ~sigh~
What if you implement some kind of limits.
Example: You can't use holy magic if you are a dark magic practitioner because <insert funny lore reason here>.
And to compensate, make Dark Magic a huge school with branches such as Necromancy, Blood Magic, etc.
You won't have a retarded good-for-all class, but you'll still have some choices.
Absolutely! I'm not against choices (they're a pain to design but fun to play). Really the only problem I see with a hypothetical unlimited full freedom system is that nothing would beat a full tank-mage-healer, and so that's all that anyone wold play.
Ken
www.ActionMMORPG.com
One man, a small pile of money, and the screwball idea of a DIY Indie MMORPG? Yep, that's him. ~sigh~
Also class obession is to help the people who don't know how to play. I forgot to say that earlier and don't feel like editing my post. It's plain and simple, if you have classes it's simpler to make it so people don't gimp themselves. By this i mean if you're a magic caster you don't have a max defense skill or something else that's silly. By doing it with classes that are set in stone morons can't gimp themselves.
I'm not saying the average mmo player is a moron but honeslty not enough of the casual market even knows how to play their class. So giving them all of these options would make them very oddly done. You'd have people who were trying to be tanks with almost no defense skill, but had a shit ton of mana and some weak heal spell and also they'd have a fireball spell. But their melee defense and attack would suck. But they're wearing plate armor even though their character shouldn't be wearing it and they're being gimped b/c of it.
Cookier cutter builds are here to stay. As long as there's the internet and if a game becomes popular they'll exist. HUGE guides on how to get the best builds and explore this to have this build. There'll be the best build for all of the holy trinity. There'll be a "cookier cutter" melee dps, magic dps, melee tank, and healer builds all done and ready for everyone. No matter how hard you try, cookie cutter builds will come up and they will become prevelant and as a designer the only thing they can do is to try to do is to make sure that they make the differences in differnet "builds" as little as possible.
Yes, there will be cookie-cutter setups, but it would be far more interesting to see Joe the average player trying to create the most cookie-cutter spells and abilities, especially if the quests/materials/dungeons for doing that are very difficult.
In many games, it's easy to go with a cookie-cutter spec because well...they are very straightforward.You just level up a certain skill by grinding or click a few times and create the uber build.
If anyone read my post, I pretty much think that would be the best solution.
If necessary put a limit on skills so players don't get their abilities way too spread out and pathetic.
Lets see if someone finds a flaw here. And don't give me that you can't practice both light and dark magic nonsense, because that would really be a good role play character, with 2 minds or souls
.
I also doubt you can make your own spells in the near future, there is no way to censor and I doubt it would promote sticking to the game's current story...
And you know that by?
Classes are more popular/wanted then classless games (check how sandbox games and fantasy mmorpgs are in popularity)
Well, the majority(read all) sandbox games are designed by indie companies and arent on the same quality level that the multi million dollar productions that companies behind fantasy MMORPG's make.
And that makes them not in the Minority how?
Well yes it would be alot harder like i said. It'd still happen and yes it would definately be interesting as a developer watching the players posting "the best dps build ever" in the forums. And then laughing as people tear it apart once someone else has a new one. It'd be very nice to have and see.
I'm always all for nonclass systems. I like hwo tes did it, they gave you template classes so that you could have something incase you didn't feel good enough to make your own class. I'd ilke a system like that or like d&d where you could make your own classes. Yes there was a ton of balance but it'd be nice to see in an mmo.
And you know that by?
Classes are more popular/wanted then classless games (check how sandbox games and fantasy mmorpgs are in popularity)
Well, the majority(read all) sandbox games are designed by indie companies and arent on the same quality level that the multi million dollar productions that companies behind fantasy MMORPG's make.
And that makes them not in the Minority how?
Last I heard:
{
Main Entry: minority
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: an outnumbered group
Synonyms:
less than half, opposition, splinter group, the few, the outnumbered, the outvoted
}
Now, there are not that many big companies, but there are many indie companies so they are not outnumbered by the big ones, so they would be effectively not the minority.
Classes shouldn't be viewed as a confinement, just a way to help players make choices. Any good skill based system would have severe limitations on what combinations were allowed anyway, and then you're back to classes with variations.
MMO's don't need MORE self sufficient players, they need less. A lot less. This whole "let everyone be able to do everything as long as they got stupendous amounts of time to put in it" philosophy has backfired in a big way. Enter pointless solo play MMOs.
And you know that by?
Classes are more popular/wanted then classless games (check how sandbox games and fantasy mmorpgs are in popularity)
Well, the majority(read all) sandbox games are designed by indie companies and arent on the same quality level that the multi million dollar productions that companies behind fantasy MMORPG's make.
And that makes them not in the Minority how?
Last I heard:
{
Main Entry: minority
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: an outnumbered group
Synonyms:
less than half, opposition, splinter group, the few, the outnumbered, the outvoted
}
Now, there are not that many big companies, but there are many indie companies so they are not outnumbered by the big ones, so they would be effectively not the minority.
You guys missed his point entirely. He wasn't refuting the fact that Sandbox games are less popular than the Standard Fantasy model that exists today. He was making the point that you can't compare the 2 because Sandbox games are made by companies that have far less money. The big companies have much more money, so the chances of producing a quality game and marketing it so a lot of people hear about it/try it are higher.
Now you just look dumb for not figuring that out on your own. Reading comprehension? What's that?
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"Fixed it. Because that wall of text attacked me, killed me and looted my body..."
-George "sniperg" Light
Cookier cutter builds are here to stay. As long as there's the internet and if a game becomes popular they'll exist. HUGE guides on how to get the best builds and explore this to have this build. There'll be the best build for all of the holy trinity. There'll be a "cookier cutter" melee dps, magic dps, melee tank, and healer builds all done and ready for everyone. No matter how hard you try, cookie cutter builds will come up and they will become prevelant and as a designer the only thing they can do is to try to do is to make sure that they make the differences in differnet "builds" as little as possible.
Yes, there will be cookie-cutter setups, but it would be far more interesting to see Joe the average player trying to create the most cookie-cutter spells and abilities, especially if the quests/materials/dungeons for doing that are very difficult.
In many games, it's easy to go with a cookie-cutter spec because well...they are very straightforward.You just level up a certain skill by grinding or click a few times and create the uber build.
With the right constraints, ability customization could be quite fun. From what I saw of Diablo 3's upcoming system, it's goin to let you mod existing abilities in interesting ways.
It's when you take the step from Customization to Creation that things get completely out of hand. Oblivion's spell creator is completely open to exploitation and therefore reasonably amusing in a singleplayer game (because players enjoy experimenting to discover those completely broken, vastly overpowered combinations), yet a horrible idea for a multiplayer game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
There are two fundamentals to a skill based game that makes them stand out:
Incremental advancement. Level based games have this giant bar that takes forever to fill. You grind you grind and you grind and nothing happens until that bar gets full. If a full day is spent on grinding all for 25% of the bar, it doesn't feel all that exciting. In fact, it's downright boring. With a skill based system, while grinding a player can at least see individual skills going up and improving and see small improvements, if only to let him kill the stuff he was killing slightly faster along the way to what would be the next class-oriented level. It makes a big difference when playing.
Alt-consolidation. Customization has been harped on a lot by other posters, so I'll point out a benefit similar to the customization argument. If someone starts out as a warrior and decides they don't want to do magic, they can still keep their existing character and even their existing warrior durability and start slinging spells. Not having to go back to square 1 to try a different play style is the most important feature. They are not forced into replaying what is ultimately the tutorial area. They do not need to re-run quests to unlock areas or stand a chance in later game content. They do not need to re-prove themselves to NPCs.
These things make for huge improvements over class-based games of old, making the grind slightly less grindy and also eliminating the grind associated with creating alts to explore different aspects of the game.
Sorry I guess I got lost in 3 walls of text and just made a direct answer to the question instead of him making a more comprehensive question on its own.
Totally my fault and not his. He shouldn't make questions which require previous information which is barely readable for someone who just joined the conversation.
This is one of the factors why people sometimes fail at communicating.
Both have their own set of advantages and disadvantages. Neither is clearly better at all things.
Skill systems are versatile, allow a lot of freedom, empower the player, and have some amount of balance by nature of being equal for all players. They are also counterproductive to roles, more vulnerable to flavor of the month builds, and in the long run can hurt replayability since it can seem 'samey' in theme.
Classes are essentially the opposite. They enforce roles which can have a positive effect on group activities and social aspects of a game. One of the biggest benefits is an adherance to theme. Everything specific to that class can have a unified look and feel. Druids can look like druids, necromancers can look like necromancers, instead of everyone using their abilities from the same pool and looking fairly similar or worse, looking vastly different than their skill set would indicate.
In board gaming its called 'variable player powers' and is a solid game mechanic. Everyone has the same goals and challenges, but each player is limited to a different set of rules, strengths, and weaknesses. It can make for a much more interesting and varied play experience if done right. It lets each class break the rules in a different way. It lets each class be overpowered in its own way. A skill based system can't have that kind of diversity because there isn't anything preventing a player from being overpowered in every way or breaking all the rules, which takes a lot of the 'game' out of the game.
Personally, I think there is enough middle ground that you could have an open skill based system with enough class-like restrictions on it to make in both flexible and interesting. I have yet to see any game accomplish this but I am relatively certain that its possible.
Its odd that the most flexible character development system that I have ever experienced in any MMORPG is a class based system. That would be D&D Online. Its also interesting that the most bland boring and generic system I have ever seen in a MMORPG was a purely skill based system. That would be those GM Plate wearing spell casters running around shouting Corp Por without an ounce of diversity in UO.
Next time, ask if you're confused. Don't make snide remarks about something you don't understand. Any intelligent person could have seen where he was going with that. I guess maybe you just got pigeonholed into a class that doesn't interpret things very well and I decided to pick the skills that would be advantageous as someone that reads text throughout the day.
Hmm...
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"Fixed it. Because that wall of text attacked me, killed me and looted my body..."
-George "sniperg" Light
There actually isn't much difference between classes and skills.
Why? Because players create classes from skill-based games.
World of Warcraft gives more skill-based character development than UO ever did.
In WoW, there are not only numerous classes, but multiple talent trees, gear styles, etc. which entirely define those classes. A paladin,priest, or shaman could be DPS or Healer! A warrior can pick almost any weapon he wants, 2h, DW, 1h/shield.
In EQ2, the same applies. AA points allow players to be a fencer (bonuses to only using 1h swords WITHOUT a shield) a knight (bonuses only when on a mount) etc etc.
In UO?
EVERYONE was either a Warrior, a Mage, or a Thief.
EVERYONE was required to have these skills.
Weapon Skill (Swords, Fencing, Macing, Archery) or Magic
Anatomy or Eval Int
Tactics or Meditation
Healing or Magery
The choices were very minimal after the fact. As a mage, a tamer, a bard, or a warrior- you were limited to only a very FEW amount of other skills.
Warriors differentiated with these choices: (1 Weapon Skill, Anatomy, Tactics, Healing 4 out of 7 skills)
Choose 3 of:
Hiding, 2nd weapon skill, 3rd weapon skill, Parry (Shields), Magery, Stealing, Taming/Veterinary.
Before things changed, almost everyone was
WARRIOR STATS: 100 STR, 100 DEX, 25 INT
MAGE STAT: 100 STR, 25 DEX, 100 INT
Sometimes a little more INT for a Warrior with some "magic" but eh.
Honestly, there were these classes in Ultima Online, and you could pick only TWO
MAGE (Magery + DMG Increasers + Mediation)
WARRIOR (Wpn Skill + DMG Increasers + Parry)
THIEF (Stealing, Hiding, Moving while Hiding, Poisoning)
ANIMAL TAMER (Animal Taming/Control, Animal Healing)
CRAFTER (A harvesting skill + crafting skill)
BARD (Stopping all combat, Cause monsters to attack each other)
Basically, you picked TWO of those classes, or 1 of those classes and 1/2 of another classes.
WARRIOR + 1/2 Mage
Mage + Tamer
Bard + Warrior
Bard + Mage
Warrior + 1/2 Thief
SKILL BASED GAMES HAVE CLASSES- you just can multiclass sometimes.
WoW, EQ2, and many other class based MMORPG's do pretty much the exact same thing. A priest can be healer + mage. A shaman can be dps + healer. A paladin can be tank + healer. A bard gets turned into 1/2 rogue + bard (Vanguard) or a Cleric (Tank + Healer, Vanguard)
IN DARKFALL- the other skill based game, EVERYONE is: MAGE + WARRIOR + ARCHER + CRAFTER. No one is going to be caught dead without at least TWO of the THREE combat classes. All good players have ALL THREE.
IF YOU WANT TO GET RID OF CLASSES,
YOU GET RID OF BOTH SKILLS AND CLASSES
AND CREATE A THIRD OPTION!
You seem to base this off a game that has a skill system akin to that of Darkfall. I don't think you're familiar with limitations and restrictions.
You're wrong and I'm not going to waste any time explaining why because it would all go right over your head.
You're wrong and I'm not going to waste any time explaining why because it would all go right over your head.
Or in other words,
"You're right, and I can prove it because I have no real response to that other than to call you an idiot because you disagreed with me and used evidence to back it up. F@#$@ ;YOU!!!!!!!!"
:
UO is entirely a class based game, which allows for multi-classing. There are 5 classes, and you're allowed 1 1/2 to 2 of them.
DF is entirely a 1 class based game, which EVERYONE is ALL 3 classes.
DDO allows for up to THREE classes.
WoW, EQ2, and other MMORPGS have multiple classes, and allow for specialization in those classes, providing a lot of diversity and often switching or multi-classing roles all together.
What other skill based game is there, where there are not classes, and everyone isn't allowed to be everything?
I agree, but you're using 'classes' and 'roles' for the same thing. They aren't necessarily the same thing. Its just a matter of semantics though.
A WoW Paladin for example can be a tank, dps, or healer. That is quite a bit of flexibility for a class based game. Skill based games start to get boring and generic when a single character is able to fill every role. That is probably its greatest shortcoming. To address this, they add restrictions. Then you start on the slippery slope between pure skill based (like Darkfall) and pure class based (like Aion). A completely restricted skill based system IS class based. You can loosen it up some and add some flexibility, but once you get to the point of unlimited flexibility you're back to a skill based system. Its not really a black and white issue as many people are trying to make it into.
To whoever told me I misunderstood
I did understand the question HE made, not the one he intended to communicate towards us. I had no idea he intended to ask a question he didn't even mention.
To whoever said class system and skill based are the same
What if I want to be a Mage + Thieft + Warrior?
You can;t do that in a class system, but you can in a skill based system.
Skill based system with effective tutorial and limitations > Everything you can think of.
A simple tutorial which can recommend a certain build is just as effective as a classed based system, plus class system separates community a lot in terms of gameplay. Last I heard an MMO is about the community.
I agree, but you're using 'classes' and 'roles' for the same thing. They aren't necessarily the same thing. Its just a matter of semantics though.
A WoW Paladin for example can be a tank, dps, or healer. That is quite a bit of flexibility for a class based game. Skill based games start to get boring and generic when a single character is able to fill every role. That is probably its greatest shortcoming. To address this, they add restrictions. Then you start on the slippery slope between pure skill based (like Darkfall) and pure class based (like Aion). A completely restricted skill based system IS class based. You can loosen it up some and add some flexibility, but once you get to the point of unlimited flexibility you're back to a skill based system. Its not really a black and white issue as many people are trying to make it into.
what kind of restrictions are you imagining?, I think you are way behind my page here.
The more different skills you get, the less effective they are and the less likely you will be able to fill the role of such skill.
Skill based system allow you to build your specific class over time, be it specialized, dual or you went for too many and now your character can;t do anything right do to him spreading his abilities too far.
Then you haven't made a meaningful decision at all. You are looking to avoid meaningful decisions and have essentially bypassed one of the fundamental tenants of gaming. Also, choosing to be a generic mish-mash of all roles has no context without having class based games to give it any meaning. Without class based gaming you wouldn't be a Mage + Theif + Warrior, instead you would just be a 'character' that, in the end, is just like everyone else. You would be playing a class based game with only one class.
* ORIGINAL POST EDITED down to just the things i wanted to comment on.
let me comment on the last sentence first, since this is the main point i replied to this thread.....
try Rubies Of Eventide. or at least read about its class system
it seems to me like you are class obsessed cuz you don't think its good to be classless. maybe you just worded the title of your thread haphazardly, and that's really not your point (whether people are class obsessed or not).
i agree with that first statement that players should be able to play the way they want, and that classes get in the way of that. which is why i like that aspect of Darkfall. but it seems like you go on to contradict yourself, by saying its not good that everybody can do everything. if your primary goal is realism (then making games that are supposed to be FUN was the wrong career path for you), then sure, it makes sense to limit players. cuz nobody can be a football star, rock star, professor, painter, teacher, house wife, brain surgeon, rocket scientist all in one lifetime. blah blah blah. for a FUN based game however.....
now FORCING people to do everything is a whole different ballgame. thats an extreme mistake, and unfortunately Darkfall undoes itself by committing that criime. THAT IS NOT INHERRENT IN CLASSLESS SYSTEMS THO. its just a specific, incredibly stupid thing the Darkfall devs have done. i've never done gathering/crafting in games before because i hate it, and yet....unless i wanna have an inferior character..... i'm FORCED to tradeskill in Darkfall. and not just ONE craft but pretty much ALL of them. therefore a good majority of my time in DF is pure progress bar grind to support the small percentage of the time i can participate in the very fun combat. because all the crafts raise various stats. that's the #1 worse thing about the game to me, and the main reason i only subscribed one month. people who only wanted to play melee would hate Darkfall cuz they are forced to do archery or spellcasting part of the time in order to be competitive.
DF does do many things right, and is very unique therefore i've subscribed another month recently, but its back to the love/hate fun/but-grindy-as-hell-grind. grrrrr! please somebody make a game with all its strengths and no grind! definitely can't take more than a month at a time (and not even play the whole month this time probably).
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Corpus Callosum
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I very much want to see a turn away from class systems in these games, sick of them! Some kind of skill based is the way to go definitely.