Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Does FPS combat take THAT much skill?

After seeing all these threads about how FPS combat is vastly superior to Target&Cast combat, I still wonder why do you guys praise FPS combat in MMORPGs so much. 

After playing Darkfall for a few days, I can honestly say that its paceness is on par with Team Fortress 2, or even slower. Then...what's the point of all of this? At this pace, it's not exactly hard to just move the mouse over the target and click.

It's kinda funny, magic reminds me of the Soldier's Rocket Launcher and archery isn't way too different from the Huntsman.

To me, there's barely any difference between Target&Cast and FPS combat, and I think developers should stop trying adding this in MMORPGs.

FPS combat simply doesn't belong in this genre, in my opinion, its point is basically killed by the fact that is so SLOW paced, not to mention, it kills some advantages of the old school combat.

Being way too fast will also kill it and will feel like a native FPS, so there aren't too many choices.

Also, keep in mind, you can create a very fast paced Target&Cast combat as well.

«1

Comments

  • AngorimAngorim Member Posts: 466
    Originally posted by Thenarius


    After seeing all these threads about how FPS combat is vastly superior to Target&Cast combat, I still wonder why do you guys praise FPS combat in MMORPGs so much. 

    After playing Darkfall for a few days, I can honestly say that its paceness is on par with Team Fortress 2, or even slower. Then...what's the point of all of this? At this pace, it's not exactly hard to just move the mouse over the target and click.

    It's kinda funny, magic reminds me of the Soldier's Rocket Launcher and archery isn't way too different from the Huntsman.

    To me, there's barely any difference between Target&Cast and FPS combat, and I think developers should stop trying adding this in MMORPGs.

    FPS combat simply doesn't belong in this genre, in my opinion, its point is basically killed by the fact that is so SLOW paced, not to mention, it kills some advantages of the old school combat.

    Being way too fast will also kill it and will feel like a native FPS, so there aren't too many choices.

    Also, keep in mind, you can create a very fast paced Target&Cast combat as well.



     

    That's insulting that you're comparing TF2 with Darkfall.  Darkfall's hitboxes are gigantic and there are no headshots (at least that I'm aware of) as well as the combat is much slower paced compared to TF2.  With proper mechanics and a better engine, FPS is far more intense and takes a lot more skill when you can literally aim and dodge attacks.

    Darkfall is a step in the right direction, it's just not that well implemented.  Mount and Blade is a good example of another indie company doing something quite well; the combat is fluid and really addictive though graphics are obviously lacking since it wasn't a large budget game.

    Honestly, I feel that the technology just isn't quite there to create a full MMOFPS that can operate on large scale terms.  I loved Planetside, but the registry and hitboxes were terrible.

  • inBOILinBOIL Member Posts: 669

    "FPS combat simply doesn't belong in this genre"

    Darkfall = new Dungeon Master

    Generation P

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504

    FPSes don't inherently require more skill.  The amount of skill they require is based on a lot of factors, and the overall skill might be more or less than a typical RPG requires (of course the typical RPG is likely to focus on strategic/tactical skill, not twitch skill.)

    I'm hardly a huge fan of Darkfall's overall design, but I think you're unnecessarily harsh on the skill required to do well.  It does an adequate job rewarding skill imo.  It may be terrible at giving players a variety of interesting skills to use, and the gameplay may be overly tedious, but the skill-check side of things is not DF's weak point.

    Does FPS style combat belong in this genre?  Half the room will say "yes", half the room will say "no", and both are right.  There will always be a big market of RPG players who want combat which takes little skill (or which takes strategic/tactical skill; a different kind of skill,) just as there will always be a good market of players who want an interesting combination of the game mechanics.  Oblivion, Fallout, and Borderlands are all very successful games of recent years, and while you're free to say "I don't like em" you'd be wrong to say "It's stupid for RPGs to have FPS combat."

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • daarcodaarco Member UncommonPosts: 4,275

    I would say it is FPS that should be the norm in MMOs. The autotargeting was something thay had to invent, because the tech didnt exist ten years ago to support FPS.

    And if it takes skill?

    That depends on what kind of players you hang around with. Average players and you only need average skill, and mounstrous players and you need mounstrous skill : )

     

  • ThenariusThenarius Member Posts: 1,106
    Originally posted by Axehilt



    Does FPS style combat belong in this genre?  Half the room will say "yes", half the room will say "no", and both are right.  There will always be a big market of RPG players who want combat which takes little skill (or which takes strategic/tactical skill; a different kind of skill,) just as there will always be a good market of players who want an interesting combination of the game mechanics.  Oblivion, Fallout, and Borderlands are all very successful games of recent years, and while you're free to say "I don't like em" you'd be wrong to say "It's stupid for RPGs to have FPS combat."

    At the moment, the choices are rather stale. With the way FPS combat is implemented in todays MMOs, I can clearly state that the difference(in skill) between a very fast paced traditional combat and this type of combat is minimal for plenty of players.

    But sure, I'd like to be impressed by a good MMOFPS, although I don't want this thing to be implemented in all future MMOs just like a "cool box feature".

    There's also a very big difference between Bethesda's RPGs and a MMOFPS, especially when you start playing the massive part of it.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504

    Well yeah the choices are stale.  There's like...1 choice?  Darkfall?  And that's it?

    I mean if you want MMOFPS, Planetside is still around and WWIIO is apparently still kicking around too.  But for a game with more of an RPG tilt like Darkfall, I don't know of any other options.

    I find it both easy and hard to criticize Darkfall's implementation.

    Copying soldier rockets and sniper bow arcs is exactly the right thing to do.  You want to have interesting skill-rewarding weaponry in a game like this.

    It's interesting because I could simultaneously see them fix their problem in two ways:

    A. Improve variety. 24 hours into a WOW hunter, I have DOTs, traps, debuffs, self-buffs; all sorts of ability types.  24 hours into my DF character I have melee attack, ranged attack, and self-heal...and that's it.  Very disappointing.

    Improving the interface itself would be nice, as it's basically a game which requires multiple skill bars to play well, but I have yet to find the option to display just 2 or 3 bars (even though an option exists to display all 10 bars...go figure.) 

    B. Improve encounter design.  The other direction they could've chosen, would be to make encounters dramatically more interesting.  Like you said, DF characters are a lot like TF2 characters in terms of not having much weapon variety.  So playing a TF2 soldier in a open MMORPG world?  Not so interesting.  Playing a TF2 soldier in Modern Warfare 2-style scripted instances?  That would be awesome.  So if they'd design some fun instanced dungeons where fun combat encounters are constantly being thrown at you in a frenzy of gaming awesomeness, that would be fun as heck!

    Sadly this idea is totally unrealistic, as it directly conflicts with the design direction of the game.  And there's really no way to make combat encounters all that interesting in a world PVE system, because you just can't control the player experience tight enough.

    It's partly why I wonder why they bothered with PVE at all, instead of just having a sort of Medieval Planetside With Crafting game (which would be awesome.)

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,662

    The only thing that FPS games have more "skill" is that you can't go afk and like the above poster said with FPS games you have less skills(variety) to use to compensate the first person view.


  • luckturtzluckturtz Member Posts: 422

    FPS shooter  relies totally on player skill this not saying it does not take skill to play to play WoW or Aoc pvp but in WoW or AoC another rpg class and gear can surpass player skill at times aka well gear stunlock in WoW or well geared Pet necro in AoC.They may be overpowered weapon in FPS but it still take skill to aim them.

    The future is going to interesting as more FPS add in rpg type systems and roles for classes and how they go about balancing things.It is not that a FPS take more skill to play it is everything is skill related.Classes and Gear in rpg pvp is almost as important as player skill

  • CactusmanXCactusmanX Member Posts: 2,218

    No combat system inherently takes more skill than another.

    FPS style combat can be twitchy, tactical, neither, both, depends on the game.  The reason I think people like it is that it gives a one to one correlation between what I do and what my character does, click a button he attacks, you are in full control, no auto attack or to hit rolls or dodge rolls.  And when you control your character directly combat is more satisfying.

    Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit

  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 4,011

    I'm not real sure how you define skill. To do well, it definitely takes alot of practice to learn how the different guns fire, how to aim in different games, when to use certain guns or special items. And it takes alot of experience, knowing the maps, and where the best ambush or vantage points are. But having played alot of FPS games, I can generally jump into most of them and do pretty well just because I'm familiar with most of the mechanics and have good hand-eye coordination.

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • GTwanderGTwander Member UncommonPosts: 6,035

    It really is based on your definition of 'skill' and whether you are trying to weigh one type against another. The tactile knowledge and forethought of standard MMO combat is akin to playing chess, you are basically outwitting them more often than outperforming them (unless they are just way higher level than you, or the scissors to your rock). FPS games take coordination, timing and quicker thinking, and because most of the attributes needed to excel in them take far longer to attain than typical MMO supremacy - I have to personally say FPS games take far more skill overall, as it even includes over-specified group planning and map research sometimes too.

    It takes a while to learn the in's and outs of a class and be able to be feared in PvP when it comes to MMOs, but it takes years of play, or unnatural reflexes to headshot a small moving target at a moment's notice. Just hop in MW2 and you'll see how zoned in these people are, and how intense the clans get over strategy. You think raid groups can be bad? Ha.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,332
    Originally posted by CactusmanX


    No combat system inherently takes more skill than another.

     

    I disagree. FPS requires player skill, while MMO requires repetition of character skills. In an FPS, unless you, the player, improve how you dodge, target and move within the game you will remain stagnant in terms of the character's abilities on the battlefield. In an MMO, you do a repetitive task to progress your character. You can suck completely at doing that task and you can still  advance even without learning a single thing about the encounter or the experience. As long as you invest enough time in the combat system that most MMOs use, you will advance your character. Level and gear offer significantly higher benefits in most MMO combat than knowledge of the game. Most battlefields or locations for combat in MMOs are not designed for any real type of strategic gameplay because none is necessary.

     

    In FPS games you have to actually have the dexterity for the tqitch combat and learn how to move and react. There is no IWIN button in an FPS. In most MMOs there are usually several areas of disparity that one can use to make up for actual player skill, the most common being gear and level disparity, both of which usually carry more weight in an even battle than any injection of player skill.

    -- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG 
    RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? 
    FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?  
  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Member Posts: 14,495
    Originally posted by LynxJSA

    Originally posted by CactusmanX


    No combat system inherently takes more skill than another.

     

    I disagree. FPS requires player skill, while MMO requires repetition of character skills. In an FPS, unless you, the player, improve how you dodge, target and move within the game you will remain stagnant in terms of the character's abilities on the battlefield. In an MMO, you do a repetitive task to progress your character. You can suck completely at doing that task and you can still  advance even without learning a single thing about the encounter or the experience. As long as you invest enough time in the combat system that most MMOs use, you will advance your character. Level and gear offer significantly higher benefits in most MMO combat than knowledge of the game. Most battlefields or locations for combat in MMOs are not designed for any real type of strategic gameplay because none is necessary.

     

    In FPS games you have to actually have the dexterity for the tqitch combat and learn how to move and react. There is no IWIN button in an FPS. In most MMOs there are usually several areas of disparity that one can use to make up for actual player skill, the most common being gear and level disparity, both of which usually carry more weight in an even battle than any injection of player skill.

     

    I agree. It's very important to learn your way around a new map in a game like CoD. You need to learn where the hiding spots are so you can snipe or avoid being sniped, where the bottlenecks are, alternate routes if a route is heavily camped, and things like that.

    In am MMORPG, doesn't really matter, except for knowing the enemy is that a way.

    I like both kinds of games.

    I don't see that the FPS needs any improvement. I enjoy playing them, they are very fast paced, but eventually they make my fingers hurt from so much shooting.

    It's nice to play something comlpetely different, like an MMORPG.

    If  an MMORPG became a FPS I probably won't play it. I'd get just as much enjoyment from a basic FPS and there's no sub fee.

     

    image

  • MazinMazin Member Posts: 640
    Originally posted by Palebane


    I'm not real sure how you define skill. To do well, it definitely takes alot of practice to learn how the different guns fire, how to aim in different games, when to use certain guns or special items. And it takes alot of experience, knowing the maps, and where the best ambush or vantage points are. But having played alot of FPS games, I can generally jump into most of them and do pretty well just because I'm familiar with most of the mechanics and have good hand-eye coordination.

     

    LOL, WTF does good hand-eye coordination have to do with it, are you serious?  I can hit a 90mph baseball, which does need good hand-eye coordination.

    I am not the greatest at FPS games, why because I refuse to play them all day.  Being good at an FPS is about one thing, experience.  Learning every nook and cranny and every trick in the book, that's all there is to it.

    Now I'm gonna go do some thumb pull-ups to get ready for my fps action tonight.....

  • ThenariusThenarius Member Posts: 1,106

    I wasn't exactly talking about the aim combat in native FPS games, but the way aim combat is implemented in MMORPGs.

    To me, it seems a huge difference, the latter one being a lot more slow paced and removing the point of why it's there in the first place.

    It seems people are worshipping it like it's vastly superior over the traditional combat, but it isn't.

    And if you make it way too fast paced, it will no longer play like an RPG.

    I'd like developers to be able to make a difference between a MMOFPS and a MMORPG with slow aim combat.

    If they'll just implement this type of combat in all future MMOs, then I doubt I'll continue following this genre.

    A FPS and a proper MMOFPS(with very fast paced combat) is great, but na MMORPG with slow aim combat is a little bit too overdone.

    I could just go play shooters instead, where this type of combat is actually useful.

  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,332
    Originally posted by Thenarius




    And if you make it way too fast paced, it will no longer play like an RPG.

     

    Why? RPG just means you have character advancement. The pace of gameplay only changes the rate of advancement. It doesn't remove it.

    -- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG 
    RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? 
    FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?  
  • ThenariusThenarius Member Posts: 1,106
    Originally posted by LynxJSA

    Originally posted by Thenarius




    And if you make it way too fast paced, it will no longer play like an RPG.

     

    Why? RPG just means you have character advancement. The pace of gameplay only changes the rate of advancement. It doesn't remove it.

    That was strictly from a combat point of view. I'm sure that not many people would enjoy a MMORPG that is fast like CS.

    And saying that RPGs are just about character advancement is superficial, otherwise S.T.A.L.K.E.R would be in the same league with Oblivion.

  • IrishIrish Member UncommonPosts: 259
    Originally posted by Mazin

    Originally posted by Palebane


    I'm not real sure how you define skill. To do well, it definitely takes alot of practice to learn how the different guns fire, how to aim in different games, when to use certain guns or special items. And it takes alot of experience, knowing the maps, and where the best ambush or vantage points are. But having played alot of FPS games, I can generally jump into most of them and do pretty well just because I'm familiar with most of the mechanics and have good hand-eye coordination.

     

    LOL, WTF does good hand-eye coordination have to do with it, are you serious?  I can hit a 90mph baseball, which does need good hand-eye coordination.

    I am not the greatest at FPS games, why because I refuse to play them all day.  Being good at an FPS is about one thing, experience.  Learning every nook and cranny and every trick in the book, that's all there is to it.

    Now I'm gonna go do some thumb pull-ups to get ready for my fps action tonight.....

    I will agree that knowing the map is very important in a FPS (or most other games), but knowledge and application of that knowledge are two different things. Someone could know the ins and outs of every map in a FPS, but if he can't handle being outnumbered or a close one on one situation, then it does little good.

    You have to be cool as a cucumber when under fire, losing, or in other situations. Twitch coordination is paramount, and it takes more than knowledge to win.

    I suppose you could have made your fastball explanation a bit more clear, but what I got from it is; "I can hit a 90 mph baseball, so I know that anyone can shoot a player in a FPS." Was this just tooting your own horn, or am I correct in my interpretation?

    On a sidenote, and I don't mean this to troll, but you should change your avatar to "Rowdy" Roddy Piper, the original speaker of the bubble gum line. Duke may be cool, but he is a certified hack when it comes to lines. I think that particular one came from John Carpenter's  "They Live."

  • DiSpLiFFDiSpLiFF Member UncommonPosts: 602

     fps combat doesn't really work in mmo's in my opinion, or maybe a AAA game needs to come out in this genre. 

    If you compare Counter Strike, Quake, Unreal, Call of Duty modern warfare 2 etc.. to some of the better known fps mmos -- Fallen Earth, Dark Fall, Mortal Online. They all look like old school doom or duke nukem. 

    I don't see how anyone would play an mmo fps over clal of duty modern warfare 2 to be honest or any mainstream fps. 

    To be on topic I think straight up FPS takes a lot of skill something like counter strike, but when you put fps in mmo there are always unfair advantages so the less and less skill it takes. 

  • KenaoshiKenaoshi Member UncommonPosts: 1,022

    i dont belive this skill myth, it end in time playing & good latency.

    But seriously, play mount&blade and comeback here, its just the BEST combat system out there, made by a tinny indy company.

    I do like target combat too, but WE NEED more variety games for diverse playstyles.

    now: GW2 (11 80s).
    Dark Souls 2.
    future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
    "Bro, do your even fractal?"
    Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.

  • IrishIrish Member UncommonPosts: 259
    Originally posted by LynxJSA

    Originally posted by Thenarius




    And if you make it way too fast paced, it will no longer play like an RPG.

     

    Why? RPG just means you have character advancement. The pace of gameplay only changes the rate of advancement. It doesn't remove it.

     

    True enough, but the rate of advancement is just a mathematical equation which can be altered by the devs, so it could theoretically stay static. Just food for thought, not hassling you. :D

  • gothagotha Member UncommonPosts: 1,074

    I think fps works great in MMOs if people know how to do it right.  You cannot just copy and paste M&B or quake style combat,  the tech is just not there.  But you can use it to add another element of skill.  make the people concentrate on aiming for long distance . For melee,  even though it is fairly easy to stay on target,  it adds an extra level of thought that keeps you on your toes.

  • IrishIrish Member UncommonPosts: 259
    Originally posted by Kenaoshi


    i dont belive this skill myth, it end in time playing & good latency.
    But seriously, play mount&blade and comeback here, its just the BEST combat system out there, made by a tinny indy company.
    I do like target combat too, but WE NEED more variety games for diverse playstyles.

    Definetly. Time refines skill in anything we humans do. Good latency is also extremely important, but now that everyone has cable/dsl, it's not difficult to have a good ping. The cool thing about MMOs is that you really have some fudge room when it comes to latency due to the target system.

    Completely agree Mount and Blade rules. I've been hooked for years now on just vanilla!

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by DiSpLiFF
    I don't see how anyone would play an mmo fps over clal of duty modern warfare 2 to be honest or any mainstream fps. 



     

    Apparently someone never tried Planetside.  An updated Planetside with new tech, graphics, and content would have me ditching MW2 in a heartbeat.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,332
    Originally posted by Kenaoshi


    i dont belive this skill myth, it end in time playing & good latency.

     

    I agree that time playing has an effect but it presents two different effects. In most FPS combat environments, you have to actually improve how you play the game in order to advance. In most character skill based combat environments, you just have to simply repeat the same actions over and over to advance. In the former, increase in player skill determines advancement. In the latter, repetition of action determines advancement.

     

     

    -- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG 
    RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? 
    FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?  
Sign In or Register to comment.