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Whats so bad about Gear Focused MMO? Can a Sandbox MMO be Gear Focused?

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Comments

  • VanpryVanpry Member Posts: 152

    You really need to ask why running the same crappy instance to get some crappy piece of gear is bad?

    UO has become much more gear centric, so yes a sandbox can be just as gear centric as a level game.

  • jagd1jagd1 Member Posts: 281
    Originally posted by Xiaoki


     

    Originally posted by metalhead980
     

    So, are you still flying the same ship in Eve you had 2 years ago.

     

    If you arent then time and accomplishments you spent getting that ship are gone forever. Just like tier 2 in WoW.

    Its all about perspective.

     

    Nothing gones forever  at eve, neither time nor accomphlishments ,you even may not be using ship you trained but skills trained to fly it always usefull  and effect other ships you fly .Not like a  armor/weapon devalued because devs added new armor/weapons to new expansion at another game.

  • MidareMidare Member Posts: 46

    I voted "no" simply because the OP didn't clarify if he meant the gear is THE focus or merely a potential point of focus.

     

    I don't think, for example... that all the characters in a theme park should be identical except for their gear. Focus to that extreme, where the gear is the only thing that decides what class you are... or what skills you can have would be horrible. The only way that fits really is if we were talking about an MMO where everyone were modern soldiers withthe same background training. Even then it would be better off having some other forms of character customization through stats and skills. Otherwise you may as well go play Counter Strike.

     

    For myself gear should only be -a- focus and never be the main make-you-or-break-you element in a game. I've a preference for fantasy settings, though, for other games it would weight differently.  Gear is important, but ... yeah... if you're reaching the point where people NEED specific items/sets to be able to take part in things, then it has become too pervasive in the game.

  • HYPERI0NHYPERI0N Member Posts: 3,515

    I voted no.

     

    Why? well in a gear based MMO you need the latest gear in order to compete. To do this you grind away till you get the gear then you discard the old gear that you no longer need. You cant compete in low level gear no matter how high your level or skills are at. So high level gear is a requirement in being accepted in taking part in endgame content where generally in a gear based game the real fun is at.

     

    In a well thought out Sandbox MMO you don ot need the latest gear at all, you just need to know how to use your skillsclass advantages in order to compete. So old gear is still good depending on the situation making a PvP opponent hard to judge as you have little idea what he has, therefore adding a bit of mystery to an engagement and a genuine adrenalin buzz because there is a unpredictable chance of losing. Also this makes endgame content easier to get to.

    Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981

  • uquipuuquipu Member Posts: 1,516

     It's all about the gear.

    Even in gamest that mostly deal with role play, it's about gear.  In EvE they don't have gear because your space ship is your gear.   Wait, I guess they do have gear in EvE too.

     

    Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren

  • HYPERI0NHYPERI0N Member Posts: 3,515
    Originally posted by uquipu


     It's all about the gear.
    Even in gamest that mostly deal with role play, it's about gear.  In EvE they don't have gear because your space ship is your gear.   Wait, I guess they do have gear in EvE too.
     

     

    The question is about a gear focused sandbox which means that to progress you must have the best gear. My point was that you dont need the best gear in order to compete in a sandbox which [in EvE's case] makes it a skillsocial focussed sadbox. Gear is just a tool in EvE.

    Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by metalhead980


    Sandbox games usually are gear focused but the gear is all crafted so its not really a grind to get the stuff.



     

    In EVE Mining, how often is the player's input required?  Once every 15 mins to empty cargo into a container or something?  How much total mining/production time is necessary to create a capital ship?

    I ask because in WOW the "grind" for gear involves a very high rate of interaction (a constant flow of decisions/reactions during boss fights.)

    Both games ask you to do the relevant activity a long time.  But one of the activities (EVE Mining) starts out grindy, and never varies at all.  Whereas each WOW boss tends to be a little different from the others, resulting in varied gameplay.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • HYPERI0NHYPERI0N Member Posts: 3,515
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by metalhead980


    Sandbox games usually are gear focused but the gear is all crafted so its not really a grind to get the stuff.



     

    In EVE Mining, how often is the player's input required?  Once every 15 mins to empty cargo into a container or something?  How much total mining/production time is necessary to create a capital ship?

    I ask because in WOW the "grind" for gear involves a very high rate of interaction (a constant flow of decisions/reactions during boss fights.)

    Both games ask you to do the relevant activity a long time.  But one of the activities (EVE Mining) starts out grindy, and never varies at all.  Whereas each WOW boss tends to be a little different from the others, resulting in varied gameplay.

    You 'forget' several things concerning eve and mining.

    You work in groups which reduces indervidual mining time.

    You forget that Pirate NPC ships can arrive at any time to kill you especially the AFK miner.

    You forget that there are roving gangs of real players who get there jollies by ganking miners.

    You forget that there a many resource sources such as AsteroidsIce fieldsNPC's [all NPC's have gear and mineral compounds that can be recycled for some very nice minerals]Salvage parts [dead ships of all types leave wreckage that can be salvaged for some high end resouces] moons and Gas fields.

    You forget that some of these resources can be dangerouse [yes you can be killed by some rocks and corrosive gas clounds].

    You forget proper mining groupe has protection from more PvP focused friendsmercenaries.

     

    And in the future there will be moving comets to mineplanetsstars and moving asterid fields all with there own risks and challenges to overcome.

     

    EDIT:- You also forget that only the insane would try and build any capital ship on his own, such things are the domain of alliances. If you really want one buy it or join an Alliance and skill up to be decent at piloting one.

    Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981

  • Southpaw.GamerSouthpaw.Gamer Member CommonPosts: 572

    The reason I don't like gear based MMO's is simply player skill is more important to me.  I would rather have an MMO where all the gear is equal and the deciding factor is the players ability to think, reason and decide upon actions and how fast said player can do those things.  Gear based MMO's make it so the more a player plays the better they are, no matter how much smarter a player is who plays less this guy who should win because he uses his brain will always lose to the idiot with better gear because said idiot does nothing but play all day.

    Full Sail University - Game Design

  • ZyonneZyonne Member Posts: 259

    Yes, a sandbox MMO can be gear focused, in the sense that gear makes a huge difference in character performance. The gear ladder does not belong in a sandbox game, though.  In a sandbox game, a newbie with enough friends in the game should be able to acquire, and use the same game as someone who has played the game since launch. 

    A sandbox MMO with a heavy focus on gear should have one, or more of the following:

    • No gated content or instances for high-end loot drops. Difficulty of an encounter should be possible to overcome with higher numbers of players and strategy, not just a set number of players with the best possible builds/equipment.
    • No BoP/BoE/no-drop restrictions.... which of course means it needs item decay and/or recycling of item materials to counter this.
    • No "best in every possible situations" gear. All gear should have strengths and weaknesses so that using cheaper, more attainable gear just means you need to specialize more.

    So, basically, I don't think gear focus detracts from the sandbox experience as long as there are enough ways to acquire the gear you want. Buying it from other players (if they are willing to sell) is the easy way to solve this, as there are always plenty of ways to make money.

     

     

  • neorandomneorandom Member Posts: 1,681

     the very definition of sandbox means you cant focus on hard to get super gear, if you have to have hard to get super gear your only goal is going to be having to get that gear, thats not sandbox then at all is it since everyone is forced to do the same thing to get the same gear to do anything else!  take dfo, gear makes minimal differences over naked with a noob weapon when ur skills are maxed, sure the gear helps but anyone can get it, if you cant make it you can make friends who can, so getting your gear in dfo is very easy, letting oyu chose whether to go grind on mobs or quest or pvp or harvest, ect ect, sandbox fun.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by HYPERI0N

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by metalhead980


    Sandbox games usually are gear focused but the gear is all crafted so its not really a grind to get the stuff.



     

    In EVE Mining, how often is the player's input required?  Once every 15 mins to empty cargo into a container or something?  How much total mining/production time is necessary to create a capital ship?

    I ask because in WOW the "grind" for gear involves a very high rate of interaction (a constant flow of decisions/reactions during boss fights.)

    Both games ask you to do the relevant activity a long time.  But one of the activities (EVE Mining) starts out grindy, and never varies at all.  Whereas each WOW boss tends to be a little different from the others, resulting in varied gameplay.

    You 'forget' several things concerning eve and mining.

    You work in groups which reduces indervidual mining time.

    You forget that Pirate NPC ships can arrive at any time to kill you especially the AFK miner.

    You forget that there are roving gangs of real players who get there jollies by ganking miners.

    You forget that there a many resource sources such as AsteroidsIce fieldsNPC's [all NPC's have gear and mineral compounds that can be recycled for some very nice minerals]Salvage parts [dead ships of all types leave wreckage that can be salvaged for some high end resouces] moons and Gas fields.

    You forget that some of these resources can be dangerouse [yes you can be killed by some rocks and corrosive gas clounds].

    You forget proper mining groupe has protection from more PvP focused friendsmercenaries.

     

    And in the future there will be moving comets to mineplanetsstars and moving asterid fields all with there own risks and challenges to overcome.

     

    EDIT:- You also forget that only the insane would try and build any capital ship on his own, such things are the domain of alliances. If you really want one buy it or join an Alliance and skill up to be decent at piloting one.



     

    So in 100 hours of mining, how many hours are engaging and fun?   Because in the ~7 hours total I've spent mining in EVE, I think 6.5 were spent AFK.

    But let's get back on topic: is mining in EVE really something you want to defend as not being grindy?  Really?!?

    It's partially an honest question, even if my personal experience is that EVE Mining is quite possibly the single most grindy activity in any game ever (surpassing even Lineage 2 leveling, if you can believe that.)

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • IlvaldyrIlvaldyr Member CommonPosts: 2,142
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by HYPERI0N


    You 'forget' several things concerning eve and mining.
    You work in groups which reduces indervidual mining time.
    You forget that Pirate NPC ships can arrive at any time to kill you especially the AFK miner.
    You forget that there are roving gangs of real players who get there jollies by ganking miners.
    You forget that there a many resource sources such as AsteroidsIce fieldsNPC's [all NPC's have gear and mineral compounds that can be recycled for some very nice minerals]Salvage parts [dead ships of all types leave wreckage that can be salvaged for some high end resouces] moons and Gas fields.
    You forget that some of these resources can be dangerouse [yes you can be killed by some rocks and corrosive gas clounds].
    You forget proper mining groupe has protection from more PvP focused friendsmercenaries. 
    And in the future there will be moving comets to mineplanetsstars and moving asterid fields all with there own risks and challenges to overcome. 
    EDIT:- You also forget that only the insane would try and build any capital ship on his own, such things are the domain of alliances. If you really want one buy it or join an Alliance and skill up to be decent at piloting one.

    So in 100 hours of mining, how many hours are engaging and fun?   Because in the ~7 hours total I've spent mining in EVE, I think 6.5 were spent AFK.

    But let's get back on topic: is mining in EVE really something you want to defend as not being grindy?  Really?!?

    It's partially an honest question, even if my personal experience is that EVE Mining is quite possibly the single most grindy activity in any game ever (surpassing even Lineage 2 leveling, if you can believe that.)

    This could very well be one of those situations where both posters are right.

    If you're mining in a 1.0 system, then it's not gonna be interesting. At all. It's gonna be duller than a dull thing that has been specifically dulled to prevent causing injuries to dull children.

    1.0 mining is introductory or for when you want to be semi afk.

    Mining in 0.0 is a very different experience.

    image
    Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by tro44_1
    You tell me. I have seen this term get thrown around Warhammer and Guild Wars forums.
    So by Gear Focused, I mean it , in the same terms their fan base and developers mean it

    /facepalm

    You better know what you ask before asking...

  • HYPERI0NHYPERI0N Member Posts: 3,515
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by HYPERI0N

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by metalhead980


    Sandbox games usually are gear focused but the gear is all crafted so its not really a grind to get the stuff.



     

    In EVE Mining, how often is the player's input required?  Once every 15 mins to empty cargo into a container or something?  How much total mining/production time is necessary to create a capital ship?

    I ask because in WOW the "grind" for gear involves a very high rate of interaction (a constant flow of decisions/reactions during boss fights.)

    Both games ask you to do the relevant activity a long time.  But one of the activities (EVE Mining) starts out grindy, and never varies at all.  Whereas each WOW boss tends to be a little different from the others, resulting in varied gameplay.

    You 'forget' several things concerning eve and mining.

    You work in groups which reduces indervidual mining time.

    You forget that Pirate NPC ships can arrive at any time to kill you especially the AFK miner.

    You forget that there are roving gangs of real players who get there jollies by ganking miners.

    You forget that there a many resource sources such as AsteroidsIce fieldsNPC's [all NPC's have gear and mineral compounds that can be recycled for some very nice minerals]Salvage parts [dead ships of all types leave wreckage that can be salvaged for some high end resouces] moons and Gas fields.

    You forget that some of these resources can be dangerouse [yes you can be killed by some rocks and corrosive gas clounds].

    You forget proper mining groupe has protection from more PvP focused friendsmercenaries.

     

    And in the future there will be moving comets to mineplanetsstars and moving asterid fields all with there own risks and challenges to overcome.

     

    EDIT:- You also forget that only the insane would try and build any capital ship on his own, such things are the domain of alliances. If you really want one buy it or join an Alliance and skill up to be decent at piloting one.



     

    So in 100 hours of mining, how many hours are engaging and fun? Depends on where you mine safe space not at all fun low sec Risky and 0.0 very tense.   Because in the ~7 hours total I've spent mining in EVE, I think 6.5 were spent AFK. Let me guess you mined in high sec probably in the newbie mning belts were there are no dangers at all no wonder you were AFK so much

    But let's get back on topic: is mining in EVE really something you want to defend as not being grindy?  Really?!? this is not 'On Topic'. the topic is about can a sandbox game be gear focussed, i merely reminded you on what mining was like as you forgot *cough* Troll *cough*

    It's partially an honest question, even if my personal experience is that EVE Mining is quite possibly the single most grindy activity in any game ever (surpassing even Lineage 2 leveling, if you can believe that.)

    You are probably one of those players who try out a themepark MMO and Quit in 7 hours in because you cant get beyond the newbie safe areas.

    Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981

  • uquipuuquipu Member Posts: 1,516

     It's all about things you get for your character.

    In Second Life they don't have gear.  Wait, it's all about looking cool in SL so that new hair, crafted by an artist, can cost you twenty dollars in real money.  Or that leather jacket.  And many own plots of land that they build their dream houses on.

    It's all a gear chase.  Keeping up with the Jones comes to mind.

    Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren

  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 4,011

    I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with gear-focused MMOs. But one thing that I don't like about it is that many players won't participate in aspects of the game that do not benefit them directly. It leads to a lot of greed and animosity between members of the same community, which I think is generally a bad thing. Competition is fine, but when you start to exclude players because of their gearscore and stuff like that, it just kind of sucks for a lot of players. But there are almost always alternatives. Usually players are not forced to participate in gear treadmills if keeping up with the latest greatest trends is not their cup of tea.

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504

    "So in 100 hours of mining, how many hours are engaging and fun?" -Axehilt 

    "Depends on where you mine safe space not at all fun low sec Risky and 0.0 very tense." -HYPERI0N

    How many hours?

    What percentage of gameplay, on average, goes beyond "tense" and actually involves additional decisionmaking beyond watching your ship shoot a laser at an asteroid?

    People claimed sandboxes weren't grindy.  I maintain that EVE is probably a lot more grindy than WOW for actually producing the "endgame gear" of that game. Evasive answers from the EVE side of court haven't addressed my assertion.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by Axehilt

    How much total mining/production time is necessary to create a capital ship?


    The answer is wrongly put and irrelevant at the same time.
    You should ask me: How many hours I need to mine(grind) to get a capital ship?

    And for that there is a simple answer: Anything in range between 0 to XX hours.

    Unlike in themeparks, you have options in EVE.

    (Leaving aside the fact that you can't build a cap ship just from mined minerals)



    Originally posted by Axehilt

    People claimed sandboxes weren't grindy. I maintain that EVE is probably a lot more grindy than WOW for actually producing the "endgame gear" of that game. Evasive answers from the EVE side of court haven't addressed my assertion.


    That's why it is a sandbox, you make it grindy for yourself only as much as you want.

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