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Whats so bad about Gear Focused MMO? Can a Sandbox MMO be Gear Focused?
tro44_1
Member Posts: 1,819
Hey
Whats so bad about Gear Focused MMOs?
Can Sandbox MMOs be gear focused?
Comments
Your questions aren't deep enough.
What is "Gear Focused"?
Does "Gear Focused" mean that if I have Epic everything and you're all in greens, but we're the same level, then you might as well be lvl 1 and I'm lvl 80? Then No.
Other than that, ALL MMOs are gear focused in one way or another.
If you're talking about a Gear Grind, then that's linear and not a sandbox. You start at point A and try to reach point B.
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Gear focused how?
Are we speaking of Drops off raid bosses and gear off vendors or gear through crafting?
Sandbox games usually are gear focused but the gear is all crafted so its not really a grind to get the stuff.
Explain what you mean and I could give you a solid answer.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
You tell me. I have seen this term get thrown around Warhammer and Guild Wars forums.
So by Gear Focused, I mean it , in the same terms their fan base and developers mean it
A gear-centric MMO is one that is focused on obtaining and upgrading gear. The classic example is World of Warcraft. Sandboxes, probably could be gear-centric, but that really cripples the sandbox aspect inasmuch as it builds obsolescence into all but the highest level loot. Most sandbox games have loot that is usable and viable by/to all players of all ranks.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
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imo when you make a game 100% about gear it feels somewhat shallow to me.
Don't get me wrong I like Items but what I don't like is when every gameplay option in the game ultimately leads to aquiring gear and then waiting and getting more gear to replace that.
I want to get gear and with that gear do other things.
Like in Eve I can train into a HAC to do this I farm isk and wait on skills once thats done the skies the limit I can pvp with it, I can run missions, help with sleepers and do other stuff.
When I play a game that makes me farm for gear just so I could continue to farm for more gear I get bored and frustrated.
IN Eve I will always have that HAC, In a game like WoW MY t1, t2, t3 sets are gone and the accomplishments i made to get those go with it.
So to answer your question can a sandbox game work if its Item focused (like WoW)?
No. You need options in sandbox games, a reason to keep playing and no that reason should not be to farm another armor set.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
So, you mean a gear grind? That's linear. Point A to Point B. So, no.
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Aren't they already, to some extent?
In some class/level games, (such as WoW) gear dependancy is an end-game progression mechanic. You hit max level, then you get progressively better gear that increases your characters strength relative to other players of the same class.
In other games, (such as EVE) gear also replaces the "class" mechanic. Your abilities are defined by which ship you're flying and how it's fitted and your relative strength is tied to what type of modules you have fitted.
As to whether gear should be the most important factor in a sandbox, (as it is in WoW at 80), I'd say no. I don't like item-ladder progressions at all, really .. and it's a bugger when an expansion effectively wipes our years of progression by making all ones gear obsolete.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I'm comfortable with gear progression in a non-themepark environment.
In my own work, stats from leveling 0 to 69 yields something like 350 points of gain. The same amount of gain can be achieved just in gear enchants alone. I had a report the other day of a well geared level 25 warlock that dropped a level 65 in PVE.
If one aspect of a sandbox is a strongly decreased emphasis on player level, then I see gear progression as being very sandboxy.
When a level 40 has a chance against a level 60 in PVP, that makes for some exciting fights. How many themeparks can say that is even remotely possible?
Got Gear?
Ken
Disclaimed: in my work, almost all gear is craftable and enchants only done by players.
www.ActionMMORPG.com
One man, a small pile of money, and the screwball idea of a DIY Indie MMORPG? Yep, that's him. ~sigh~
Not busting on you, may I ask why? If not gear and not level (and assuming not twitch combat)... what is appropriate to drive progression?
Ken
www.ActionMMORPG.com
One man, a small pile of money, and the screwball idea of a DIY Indie MMORPG? Yep, that's him. ~sigh~
The reason some people don't like gear focused is because it then becomes just that gear focused.
If you have a game where gear is mostly irrelevant then skill becomes more of a factor then gear. So the guy that is always on top in PvP, or the guy you always want in a PvE group because he destroys everything, gets the recognition of being skillful at the game. In a gear based game it turns into, you just have good gear. It also leads to people buying the good gear/gear filled accounts and instantly being the uber character instead of learning to be skillful.
Personally I play both types of games, however I hate gear based when it starts becoming raid to get the gear. I don't want to have to get involved in big 2 hour raids where everyone has to do everything right to then have a 1% chance at a piece of gear I need to have the only set that matters. Then I have to dice roll against a couple other guys if it does land, etc etc etc.
I actually think that is why more people hate gear based, because it has become the same as being a raid grind game.
Not busting on you, may I ask why? If not gear and not level (and assuming not twitch combat)... what is appropriate to drive progression?
Ken
Imo progression shouldnt entirely focus on gear but other things as well, skills, game mechanics (like taking over territory).
As an example in Eve I play a covert ops pilot most of the time. MY progression is just playing a scout, raising skills sure gear helped me preform the role but gear isnt the end its the beggining.
Any sandbox that 100% focuses on gear as the only way to progress is shallow.
WHy get gear? to use that to farm more gear? How many times can you repeate the process before burn out?
Not much freedom in a sandbox game when your stuck in a cycle like that.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
That's because you made your accomplishments about gear. If you make your accomplishments about actually achieving something then they will reamain with you pretty much forever. ie beating Ragnaros wasn an accomplishment while the T2 pants you go from him was just gear.
If you make your accomplishment about gear then you put yourself into a trap. One needs to mark accomplishments by the intangibles like pride or skill.
BTW EVE also obsoletes gear. When I first played the game, there were many expensive and tough to get ships, weapons and modules. When I played again a couple years later most of them were pretty much worthless since better, less expensive items were added in the meantime.
Aside from twitch, level and gear, should a factor in determining outcome a fight be the tactics (and skill thereof) from the combatants?
If so, then I'm guessing that a major failing of devs is the basis of combat (pve or pvp) on the concept of tank 'n spank? (which doesn't take much in the way of tactics)
Ken
www.ActionMMORPG.com
One man, a small pile of money, and the screwball idea of a DIY Indie MMORPG? Yep, that's him. ~sigh~
That's because you made your accomplishments about gear. If you make your accomplishments about actually achieving something then they will reamain with you pretty much forever. ie beating Ragnaros wasn an accomplishment while the T2 pants you go from him was just gear.
If you make your accomplishment about gear then you put yourself into a trap. One needs to mark accomplishments by the intangibles like pride or skill.
BTW EVE also obsoletes gear. When I first played the game, there were many expensive and tough to get ships, weapons and modules. When I played again a couple years later most of them were pretty much worthless since better, less expensive items were added in the meantime.
When you raid to reach the next point of progression you need gear. So getting those Pants off rag were needed to help my guild take down BWL and getting my Wrath as a MT helped my guild take down AQ40 and Getting those random pieces of tank gear helped get me into Naxx and beyond that in the next expansion.
To say its not about gear is wrong. its about progression through itemization when it comes to raiding.
Also your wrong about Eve the only item that is obsolete is the starting ship try telling a four year Rifter pvper that his t1 frig is obsolete last Time I check my thunderfury a god damn legendary item along with the content that went with it was obsolete in WoW.
An accomplishment that took me what 6 months to gain whipped out yet in Eve I still have my very first punisher and its completely useful. can I say the same for t1 armor in Wotlk?
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
The gear based problem has came from developers inability to find ways to keep leveling (or skilling up) slow and interesting. Who really wants to spend a month on the same level? That isn't fun at all. So they sped up leveling but now max level is obtainable with a couple weeks. So how do you keep your customers? In stomps raids and the endless gear farming.
Long ago and far away, DAOC was designed so that the highest form of gear was player crafted in almost all cases, so the end game wasn't about getting ever higher gear, it was fighting RVR.
Then came TOA and the artifact system and it helped destroy what mede the game great. These days player crafted gear is only used to fill in some holes to cap out a particular attribute, but doesn't play the promiment role that it once did.
And I don't like the game anymore.
WOW was more of the same, and I walked away from it and games like it pretty much ever since.
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If by gear-centric, we were talking aestetic value, then yes! Your armor is worth more now than then, due to the drought of creative armor design. I troll I troll.
On a constructive note- I would place my vote with 'no'. Sandbox style play revolves around exploration and pick-your-own way of playing. By placing too much value into 1 basket, you effectively force anyone playing the game to focus on not being weak themselves... you need a spread. Mechanics, abilities, gear,.. and the list goes on.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
If by gear-centric, we were talking aestetic value, then yes!
Not always.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
If your game's gear focused. If you don't have the top gear you can't do shit with anyone else. The whole idea of it is tohave this one type of gear that everyone else has and you have to have it too. Which means you wearing only that one unless you wan to fail.
No they cannot be gear focused as that takes away the whole point of being a sandbox mmo. Which is freedom to do whatever the hell you want(within reason of course). If it's gear focused, everyone will be the wearing the same exact gear, and everyone will be doing the same exact crap with the same exact builds and everyone will be exactly the same. changing it from what was a game about exploration and adventuring with friends into a "oh your gear score's too low sorry we're kicking you from teh group". Without it being gear focused instead skill focused it'd be like "oh hey you wanna go adventure with us we're going to go explore area x"
If by gear-centric, we were talking aestetic value, then yes!
Not always.
Aww I loved that pally set dude!!!! back then when WoW was a Raid centric game and didnt try to be a hundred things at once. Raid or die!!! goodtimes man.
Too bad you're considered a no life on these forums if you liked gameplay like that.
Oh im talking strickly of themepark games. I would give my left nut for an awesome hardcore raid centric themepark to play along with my Eve addiction.
Guess that playstyle is long dead
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Back in the good old days of SWG pre-CU, i wasnt that concerned about top-shelf gear. Both armour and weapons decayed and was in the end beyond repair. Tanking a Krayt or a full geno run most likely ruined your gear. Armour back then cost about 150-200k per suit and a good power hammer costed about the same. So if that krayt dragon didnt drop anything worth selling the whole trip could be a costly project lol.
But it kept the economy running. When i think of all the players that had a hand in the making of the gear we used, i just gotta smile. Hunters, resource gatherers, crafters, smugglers and loot. I really miss those times.
Hauken Stormchaser
I want pre-CU back
Station.com : We got your game
Yeah?, Well i want it back!!!
If by gear-centric, we were talking aestetic value, then yes!
Not always.
Aww I loved that pally set dude!!!! back then when WoW was a Raid centric game and didnt try to be a hundred things at once. Raid or die!!! goodtimes man.
Too bad you're considered a no life on these forums if you liked gameplay like that.
Oh im talking strickly of themepark games. I would give my left nut for an awesome hardcore raid centric themepark to play along with my Eve addiction.
Guess that playstyle is long dead
Hah, my main character at the time was a dwarf priest.
He did look pretty awesome in full Prophecy clobber. Better than any shoddy Paladin!
The raid-or-die playstyle isn't dead; it's alive and kicking in WoW thanks to the hard-mode instances and such. Only difference is that it's 25 man instead of 40 man.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
If you arent then time and accomplishments you spent getting that ship are gone forever. Just like tier 2 in WoW.
Its all about perspective.
If you arent then time and accomplishments you spent getting that ship are gone forever. Just like tier 2 in WoW.
Its all about perspective.
Not the exact ship, it was blown up a long time ago.
But, I'm still flying around in the same model HAC that I have been flying around in for 2-3yrs now. Same loadout and everything. +rigs of course
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If you arent then time and accomplishments you spent getting that ship are gone forever. Just like tier 2 in WoW.
Its all about perspective.
Yes I am actually lol.
Don't know much about Eve do you? Everything I accomplished in Eve is still with me. My skills, my isk and the Ships im able to fly. I've trained in specific roles and not once has a ship been obsolete. Certain things A wow newb would think is worthless like a T1 frig or cruiser are awesome pvp ships and great for particular escalations in exploring,
I to this day pvp in my platted/Neut vexor.
Edit: obviously its not the same exact ship since ships get blown up but the same model I trained for. See CCP does a great job not making content worthless, something blizzard fails to do. Hows that 70% of raid content thats worthless treating you?
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum