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So sick of quest focused themeparks. Player freedom is the way forward
mrmeloni
Member UncommonPosts: 236
There's one type of mmo that gets me so bored, it makes me wonder why I ever got into mmos in the first place, then I remember, sandboxes are a different ballgame which require the player to actually think rather than just brainlessly follow the quest chains.
I'm sure many others feel this way, you log in to some new mmo, all flashy graphics, it looks great from the outside, but as soon you're an hour into the game you're on the verge of quitting because you're sick of doing the same old thing that most mmos have you do these days.
I'm talking about being steered along a set path that the game designers want you to follow, they have you follow this path by giving you quests and making it rewarding enough to do them that you have little choice but to do them. You complete one quest or set of quests, only to be sent to the next npc/area for a bunch of new quests. In many games you will be herded through the game from level 1 right up to max level in this way, and it's very boring. A person who is fairly new to mmos might slightly enjoy this, but anyone who has played them for a while is going to get bored real fast.
I thought about why games are like this and if it's possible to change it, and it is, the very first mmo (uo) gave you a great number of options on things to do from the moment you created your first character. You didn't need xp to level up in this game, what you really needed was money, because without money there was little you could really train. There was many ways to make money in UO as a newly created character, you start out with almost nothing, the most important thing in your inventory being the small quanity of starting gold you received. This is where players had options, you didn't need to speak to the quest giver npc and kill 5 snakes, to then be told to goto X and receive the quest to kill 5 goblins (repeat this step about 10,000 times with various different npcs and quests and boom you're max level) You could use the starting gold to purchase a weapon and a skinning knife and choose to hunt and skin wild animals, the meat and skin you gather being sold on at a tidy profit to player crafters. You could buy a pickaxe or a woodaxe and gather logs or ore, which you could sell to player crafters for a probable 10 fold return on your investment.
As your gold grew, more options would become available to you, such as becoming a crafter yourself, and there was many different craft options available. If you wanted to, you could max out your blacksmithing without ever fighting a single battle, and the same goes for every craft. No themepark game offers you that kind of freedom, you're always forced to level up if you want to get anywhere, it's always about the levels. You could max out blacksmithing and alchemy and earn enough money from that to buy a house, and even start training to use magic (magic in UO was supposed to be powerful in the early days, not just something that everyone could use on day 1). How many games can you do all that before venturing into PVE? You could craft yourself a full set of exceptional armor and weapon and strong potions and then finally turn to the PVE side of things. That's the kind of freedom i'm looking for in an mmorpg.
I personally think that people are getting bored of themepark style games, I know I am, and I know others are, obviously I don't have actual numbers. WoW is dominating the mmo market, it is a very well made themepark game, and no game new themepark game is going to de-throne it. Seriously, when will developers learn that trying to copy WoW is not going to lead to great success, there has been a few major mmo launches in the last few years, aswell as many smaller ones, most are trying to do what WoW did, some are even blatantly coyping WoW. All of these games are failing.
Developers looking to create a new mmo should pay attention here, i'm going to start about Alganon. Alganon is such a blatant copy of wow that they even copied the inferace, the character movements, how characters look, it's the worst case of a direct copy i've seen yet. I believe 2000 max people have bought a copy of Alganon, and i'm being very generous with that. You can estimate how many people have bought it by checking how many people registered to their forum, you need to have registered a forum account in order to buy a copy of Alganon. They had less than 4000 register users when I checked last week. I'm one of those users and I didn't buy the game, I bet there is a lot more like me.
Now you can see how miserable Alganon is doing, you have to wonder why didn't the developers try to come up with their own idea for an mmo, they could have made some sort of sandbox (hate using that word but what else can I call an mmo where you have freedom to choose how to play) They instead decided to basically copy/paste from WoW and alter a very minor details. That game will be going down soon, all their time and money wasted for nothing. Understand this game developers, people don't want a copy of WoW, and that theme park style of gameplay, they want a new style of game.
My personal thought is that Blizzards secret mmo may be a sandbox, we already know they are creating a new mmo and they do not want it to be the same as WoW. What else could they make other than a sandbox style of game? Barbie online? Football manager? I doubt it.
Comments
I hope you are right on Blizzard's secret MMO possibly being a sandbox, and I understand your feelings on focused themeparks. I think the latter were okay for drawing in the non-gaming community and boosting the player base. Folks who have never played computer games, much less MMO's, might need a little hand-holding at first, and might be otherwise turned off if they have too many choices or are required to exercise more initiative.
But now, there is a huge player population who is ready for the next level of MMO gaming, and I think that means more immersion, more risk, and more sandbox-ish or free range elements.
Let's hope.
Some more to support my theory on why Blizzard is making a sandbox...
There are two dominant styles of mmo, themepark and sandbox. Before WoW came about they were roughly equal, Wow has since made themepark the dominant style of mmo, many say WoW took a lot from Everquest.
There is one sandbox mmo which is doing well right now, EVE online, i'd even say it's doing as well as Everquest was before WoW came about. Could blizzard be coming up with their own EVE online? Ok it probably won't be quite like that, but you get the idea. I say that Blizzard is working a big sandbox mmo.
An alternate theory: Blizzard could be making a themepark inside a sandbox.
Doesn't have to be such a black and white choice between the two.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Makes sense, Blizzard massively increases the number of people interested in MMOs by creating WoW. Years later Blizzard realise these people are getting bored with that style of game and many will want to play something new and challenging. Blizzard starts creating new more challenging sandbox mmo so they will be the ones to keep these players subscriptions in the future.
They're probably working on another themepark, but if not. My next guess would be a themepark/sandbox hybrid similar to what Fallen Earth does.
I'm personally hoping it's either a sandbox or hybrid. Guess we just have to wait (a long time?) and see.
You can do all that without ever killing a single monster? Nope, it's still a themepark, they just gave you more options in the higher levels. What you just said is fluff anyway, flying carpets? motorbikes? How do these effect gameplay?
Maybe so, but you just highlighted another problem: crafting helicopters in a medieval fantasy-themed MMO. IMO, WOW has been getting a bit off track lately.
While I can suspend belief to accept dragons in a fantasy-themed MMO, scoped laser rifles and motorcycles are a bit much (although the latter are possible today, while dragons probably never existed).
I don't know, some people like Steampunk and genre-blending elements, but to me they are jarring. I much prefer an "in character" fantasy MMO.
I personally think that Blizzard are crafty devils, smart enough to make the right choice. I'll be very surpised if their new mmo is another themepark. Especially since Blizzard VIPs have been quoted stating that their new mmo is something that is new and "very cool". I don't see what would be so cool about another themepark.
A few fluff crafting abilities does not make a game sandbox.
WoW is still a linear theme park style game where you level up and spend the rest of the game grinding raid instances or tooling around in BGs. There is no real player dynamic in the game, just an A to B exercise.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
You can do all that without ever killing a single monster? Nope, it's still a themepark, they just gave you more options in the higher levels. What you just said is fluff anyway, flying carpets? motorbikes? How do these effect gameplay?
How can you call a game where you can't even leave your cockpit chair ... a sandbox ?
Easily, because in EVE you have multiple choices on what to do from the moment you log in, you don't have to follow the pre-set path set for you by the developers. There is no set path. That is a sandbox.
I personally think that Blizzard are crafty devils, smart enough to make the right choice. I'll be very surpised if their new mmo is another themepark. Especially since Blizzard VIPs have been quoted stating that their new mmo is something that is new and "very cool". I don't see what would be so cool about another themepark.
Very true. I can understand them wanting to make something new and cool. But Blizzard tends to 'do what works', and from a financial standpoint a sandbox might not meet their usual standards moneywise.
Then again it's Blizzard, if there's a company that can do something right, it's them. (Ignore this line Blizzard haters. =P)
What exactly can you change about teh landscape of the game by crafting in WoW?
We know you love WoW, and there is nothing wrong with the game. But when you go out of your way with vague claims and comparisons to other games you tend to lose ground.
And the only reason I can see anyone agreeing with you on the point of WoW being non-linear in its end game is because there isnt anything left to do other than the newest raid and running the same BGs. Therefore there is no path left to following seeing as you pretty much hit the content wall.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I personally think that Blizzard are crafty devils, smart enough to make the right choice. I'll be very surpised if their new mmo is another themepark. Especially since Blizzard VIPs have been quoted stating that their new mmo is something that is new and "very cool". I don't see what would be so cool about another themepark.
Very true. I can understand them wanting to make something new and cool. But Blizzard tends to 'do what works', and from a financial standpoint a sandbox might not meet their usual standards moneywise.
Then again it's Blizzard, if there's a company that can do something right, it's them. (Ignore this line Blizzard haters. =P)
There was another quote that was floating around here a few days ago. A top Blizzard guy was telling game developers to stop trying to copy WoW, he said as flattering as it is, players do not want to re-live their WoW experience in a new game similar to WoW, what people are looking for is a new type of game.
This quote only goes to strengthen my belief that Blizzard is working on anything but a thempark mmo.
Editing in link to the article/quote: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=228470?cid=OTC-RSS&attr=CVG-General-RSS
I think what is going on is many folks are using the phrase "sandbox" when they really mean "free range". The call these days does not appear to be so much "how can I change the physical environment" as "give me a world and the opportunity to wander and explore freely within it."
In other words, I do not need to chop down a tree and have it remain permanently chopped down; I just need to start in a sensible starting village and not some artificial instanced quest tutorial where I have to complete a maddeningly redundant series of quests and cutscenes just to "leave the door" and get into the world.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think more player freedom is what many folks would like to see. And the first step, I believe, is for devs to design a world meant for the NPC's, not the players. If the world makes sense for the NPC's (i.e., sensibly-placed farms, towns, vendors, factions, societies, etc...), then it will be much more immersive for the players. A civilized settlement should not be looked upon as a "player quest hub", but as a "city" or "town" of such-and-such empire or kingdom.
This can be hard to describe, but players who started MMO's in UO or Everquest or AC will know what I am talking about.
Hoping the next MMO is a "world."
^ Nailed it for me!
Every thing you said here is really part of what I am looking for in an MMO again.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I found the Blizzard quote I was looking for:
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=228470?cid=OTC-RSS&attr=CVG-General-RSS
""Players that have invested time in WOW don't just want to do the same thing in other game - they want to try something completely new and different," he argues.
"I think the industry needs to move in that direction to come up with some innovative new MMOs that are trying really different things. Take City of Heroes - at least that's something that's not a fantasy game."
Imo this says a lot about the new game that Blizzard are making.
Maybe so, but you just highlighted another problem: crafting helicopters in a medieval fantasy-themed MMO. IMO, WOW has been getting a bit off track lately.
While I can suspend belief to accept dragons in a fantasy-themed MMO, scoped laser rifles and motorcycles are a bit much (although the latter are possible today, while dragons probably never existed).
I don't know, some people like Steampunk and genre-blending elements, but to me they are jarring. I much prefer an "in character" fantasy MMO.
While I absolutely disagree with Zorndorf's depiction of WoW as a sandbox; I have to disagree with you on this point. WoW has never had a medieval fantasy theme.
Gnomes and Goblins have been in the game since day one, and the steampunk element is basic to the design of each races lore. Choppers and bikes "fit" the WoW world.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
The only problem you got is that you do NOT have a unique defintion of what is a sandbox....
Here take a GOOD look on the last two sentences this "guy" says :
....... http://www.wow-europe.com/wowanniversary/video/?v=Jeff_Kaplan_Q2#video
Like I said: take note of his last two lines.
It may help this thread and its meaning .....
And I think he has got some advantages over all of you
I think most are talking "free range", but using "sandbox" as a term. There are really very few true sandbox games.
The only problem you got is that you do NOT have a unique defintion of what is a sandbox....
Here take a GOOD look on the last two sentences this "guy" says :
....... http://www.wow-europe.com/wowanniversary/video/?v=Jeff_Kaplan_Q2#video
Like I said: take note of his last two lines.
It may help this thread and its meaning .....
And I think he has got some advantages over all of you
I think most are talking "free range", but using "sandbox" as a term. There are really very few true sandbox games.
Free range probably suits it more. I mean UO wasn't really a sandbox, but you were certainly free to do as you please right from the moment you logged in, with options opening up rapidly as you increased your wealth. Many people talk of UO as being a sandbox, what I think they mean is a game with great player freedom.
Free range probably suits it more. I mean UO wasn't really a sandbox, but you were certainly free to do as you please right from the moment you logged in, with options opening up rapidly as you increased your wealth. Many people talk of UO as being a sandbox, what I think they mean is a game with great player freedom.
Aye, when you played UO you would log in and usually think about what you wanted to do at that point. Did you want to go explore with friends? Harvest some reagents or some crafting materials?
You didnt log in and automatically go "Ok, I need to complete these quests in order to get the item I need to gain access to the dungeon that everyone else is in." or "Now I need to get to that level 77-80 zone so I can gain the last few levels I need so I can start raiding"
Its the whole not feeling like you 'have to' do something in the game but rather the feeling of 'I could do..' that make the whole 'free range' game feel good.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
The only problem you got is that you do NOT have a unique defintion of what is a sandbox....
Here take a GOOD look on the last two sentences this "guy" says :
....... http://www.wow-europe.com/wowanniversary/video/?v=Jeff_Kaplan_Q2#video
Like I said: take note of his last two lines.
It may help this thread and its meaning .....
And I think he has got some advantages over all of you
"And I think that we spent a lot of time creating a lot of big, epic Warcraft moments for people. Obviously, there was the scene at the Wrath Gate that’s really memorable, but really it was the moments that the players created that stand out, for me, more than anything, more than any moment that we could have created in the Warcraft universe..."
This man is creating the new MMO of Blizzard btw....
it doesnt matter how many quotes you make, you still get the same answer, WOW is not a sandbox game, it is a themepark, and a very good one at that, i even play it myself on occasion when im taking a break from Eve, so its not like i dont know anything about WOW, i really dont know why you have a problem with WOW being a theme park game? the fact that it is one is its biggest draw, after all.
Depending on your idea of a "Sandbox" MMO you could claim that WOW is a sandbox or that EVE is a sandbox game. If end game play with no real rewards other then armor or weapons or even crafted items is your goal then WOW is a sandbox at end game. Using this meaning of a sandbox EVE is also a sandbox but it is a sandbox from the moment you log in to the moment you log out with no real level cap or end game except 0.0 space.
Now another way to look at "Sandbox" is choices, originality, goals, different paths to get to everything. WOW by this definition is not a sandbox, you must grind creatures to level up to become good enough to participate in End game, your choices are not vast, they are narrow and laid out before you. EVE on the other hand gives you choices from moment 1, you don't have to grind anything in EVE to "Level Up", yes I used "Level Up" for eve, the reason being in even each plateu of skill points is basically a level. The problem is EVE plays itself you have no interaction with the training of your skills. In this respect it just became WOW's End game, and that is it.
So to me a true sandbox is a game where you decide what path you want to take with your character, "I want to be a bow guy" then 2 days later "I want to change to a sword guy" then , "A mage". Open endedness no real end game, just playing, my favorite example of this is still Asheron's Call. I have not played UO, but it would be close as well. In these games you could just stand around and cast spells all day and become a buff guy. Or you can go out and kill, but you don't have to follow a quest, and that is the best part about it.
Only my opinion
Let's be real here, your talking about Blizzard, they don't do niche. Most likely their new MMO will be one you can play over Facebook or iPhone. First thing you ask yourself if your Blizzard when brainstorming a new MMO is, "how can I get more users then WOW?"
It's not going to be sandbox as it is common knowledge that majority of gamers do not like choices. Choices give user the ability to fuck up. A noob picks up a game and decides so forth as he building his character how he develops and then learns months later discover so and so skill is useless. That's why we have unlimited resets now, cause people are stupid.
My bet is definitely that Blizzard's working on a sandbox mmo that is themed with their new IP and that is more massive than wow, they gonna release it in 2012 imo.
I'll be surprised if this game has quests I think they will make it a kind of game that the player can do everything like building houses/castles/ crafting that isn't limited to recipes or anything like that.. massive battles in the open world ( a thing that was in wow for a real short time and they decided to end it). There won't be player levels but skill levels. In short it will probably have everything that isn't in wow.
World of Warcraft is a proof that MMORPG quality should affect schedule/budget and not the other way around.
Easily, because in EVE you have multiple choices on what to do from the moment you log in, you don't have to follow the pre-set path set for you by the developers. There is no set path. That is a sandbox.
Multiple choices on HOW TO MAKE ISK!!! Thats ALL YOU DO!! Thats all the game is about. Everything you do is related to making ISK because everything is dependent upon it. In WOW its all about leveling up, UNTILL you cap out. THEN, you can do a whole bunch of things not related to leveling up at all. You can make money, collect things, craft, run dungeons, PvP, ect.
So please explain an acitivity in Eve that doesn't revolve around ISK? I'd love to hear it. If you say Rping, I can do that in every MMO.
Your choices in Eve...
1. Run missions for ISK just like WOW, except WOW's has a much better quest system.
2. Randomly kill things for ISK, just like WOW
3. Craft things to make ISK, just like WOW
4. Sell things on the market to make ISK, just like WOW, except its the AH. The economy is more player dependant in Eve. But for most people thats a BAD, BAD thing and its not like players don't effect WOW's economy. They have a huge impact. Its just more controlled.
5. You can go exploring, but lets face it, theres NOTHING to actually find in Eve. Another indenitcal system with asteroids but with a different background map is not exploring? C'mon...exploration is a pretty loose term in Eve. In WOW you actually expand your map, can open acheivments and get EXP for exploring, making it a far more in-depth feature.
6. You can mine of course for ISK, but WOW actually has a lot more variety on this front, with different things to find for different uses. In Eve, its all just rocks and ore and you can do it without even being at the computer, which most people do.
7. You can buy and collect ships which requires ISK, but you can reroll different characters in WOW AND have a huge assortment of mounts. You're not rerolling in Eve unless you make a second account, which everyone does=)
8. You can go start a corp in order to make more ISK. In WOW you can start a guild which isn't about making gold.
9. You can go build a space station to make more ISK, but you're not doing that alone. WOW doesn't let you build any stuctures, mostly because people don't care enough to. Its not like Blizzard couldn't have designed housing years ago. They chose not to.
10. You can PvP, but you're not actually doing that effectively for a few months. In WOW, you can PvP in a few hrs if you want. You can go destroy a space station, but how often does that occur? You can go destroy a fortress in WOW all the time.
11. You can choose which skills to train in Eve, plotting what you want. You do the same thing in WOW, except its more hands on and requires actually PLAYING the game.
The only pre-set path in WOW is being confined to a level(until you cap), but if you think Eve doesn't have those same confinements in the skill system, you're blind. Skills=levels In Eve, you still have to do X before Y like any MMO. There are FAQs that explain why you have to do A, then B, then C, ect in order to acheive D.
So again, please explain how EVE has more choices than WOW again? I'd love to hear it=)