I see a lot of well thought out reasons why some ppl think WoW isn't as easy as hardcore gamers like to say. Hardcore gamers respond with comments about if WoW wasn't your first mmorpg, you'd understand, without explaining. I think it's become more cliche then anything else. You can't be hardcore and like WoW. You'll notice even a lot of the ppl that support/defend WoW usually follow it up with a comment about how they "aren't saying WoW is a great game" or "I quit because it got boring". If the ppl that defend WoW can't even admit to playing the game, is that saying something about the game, or the negative connotation associated with the WoW community. BTW, I quit WoW a year ago, it got boring.
I've played a lot of "open pvp" games they're not rare, AoC Aion are both open pvp games. My experience in open pvp games are people run away from fair fights, and only engage in fights where they know they'll win. This was especially true in Aion.
Thats the biggest problem with games today. Most new gamers started with WoW, and most of the only open pvp games they know of are Aion,AoC, or DF. The problem with this that hardly anyone remember the great RvR pvp of DAoC, or the open pvp of Shadowbane. Or the original kids on the bloack UO,or AC.
Uh, even before WoW most were fleeing fair fights :-)
Though I have very good memories of huge sieges in Shadowbane, until everybody started using the lag ball strategy...
I see a lot of well thought out reasons why some ppl think WoW isn't as easy as hardcore gamers like to say. Hardcore gamers respond with comments about if WoW wasn't your first mmorpg, you'd understand, without explaining. I think it's become more cliche then anything else. You can't be hardcore and like WoW. You'll notice even a lot of the ppl that support/defend WoW usually follow it up with a comment about how they "aren't saying WoW is a great game" or "I quit because it got boring". If the ppl that defend WoW can't even admit to playing the game, is that saying something about the game, or the negative connotation associated with the WoW community. BTW, I quit WoW a year ago, it got boring.
WoW has been out for 5 years now, although a great game that i played for just over 4 years. It just gets repetitive after a while, my last year of WoW all I really did was play arenas, i got gladiator on my priest 2 seasons in a row and threw in the towel.
i'm not really positive on what point you're trying to make, but I would never deny that I played WoW and loved it for 4 years. The only thing that I hate about WoW is the game is to damn good, it ruins all other games for me when I compare it to WoW. The only game i've played that caught my interest since WoW is EVE, but thats because the games are sooo different.
I see a lot of well thought out reasons why some ppl think WoW isn't as easy as hardcore gamers like to say. Hardcore gamers respond with comments about if WoW wasn't your first mmorpg, you'd understand, without explaining. I think it's become more cliche then anything else. You can't be hardcore and like WoW. You'll notice even a lot of the ppl that support/defend WoW usually follow it up with a comment about how they "aren't saying WoW is a great game" or "I quit because it got boring". If the ppl that defend WoW can't even admit to playing the game, is that saying something about the game, or the negative connotation associated with the WoW community. BTW, I quit WoW a year ago, it got boring.
So are we supposed to worship the game?
While it's great, it has its bad parts. Especially for me, even if not for other people.
IlgauskasLineage II CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 58
Originally posted by DiSpLiFF
honestly the only thing that would bring me back to WoW would be some mass MEANINGFUL pvp like the lineage 2 castle sieges.
Meaningful open PvP (Lineage 2) is very difficult to implement in WoW. That's because:
One of the main flaws of Lineage 2 is that full-loot is now allowed as it makes the gained equipment pernament (augmentation system even more assured that). That means that by camping bosses the most powerful clans would fortify their dominance by out-gearing everyone. Then they'll take out a castle after castle and in the end the competition is defeated. What's then? Exactly, they start ganking lowbies and other people because they are dominant. As Lineage 2 is all about competition, the game is over....
Such a situation exist in the majority of Lineage 2 servers (both retail and private).
I still can not believe people still call fighting in an arena PVP! Go out in the world and fight; that is PVP, oh wait, you can not do that in WOW, only arena and bg. OOPS sorry your game sucks so bad for REAL PVP.
honestly the only thing that would bring me back to WoW would be some mass MEANINGFUL pvp like the lineage 2 castle sieges.
Meaningful open PvP (Lineage 2) is very difficult to implement in WoW. That's because:
One of the main flaws of Lineage 2 is that full-loot is now allowed as it makes the gained equipment pernament (augmentation system even more assured that). That means that by camping bosses the most powerful clans would fortify their dominance by out-gearing everyone. Then they'll take out a castle after castle and in the end the competition is defeated. What's then? Exactly, they start ganking lowbies and other people because they are dominant. As Lineage 2 is all about competition, the game is over....
Such a situation exist in the majority of Lineage 2 servers (both retail and private).
You're right thats exactly what happened on the server I played on Gustin. The game was really fun for the first year until one Alliance had the most high levels + best gear, and then it stopped being competitive. They went on to control all the castles, and then WoW came out and I left.
WoW is easy, no matter what anyone says. And thats the beauty of the game, as it was never meant to be 'hard' or 'hardcore'. Even the devs have stated this throughout development and release.
The point of the game was that any player could pick it up and start playing without needed to spend hours learning anything about the game.
Now is it too easy? Depends on the player and how much time they spend in the game. To me, the game wasnt 'too easy'... the game was just redundant once you hit max level. While you are leveling up the game is entertaining, between the quest lines, the characters, the NPC stories, etc. Once you hit level 80 you run into the brick wall of Dailies and Raids. Thats all there is. And I didnt mention PvP for the simple reason that BGs are fun every now and then, but doing them too often gets boring real quick. Same goes for arena play.
The game is just over too quickly (if you sneeze while playing the middle game, you might miss everything) and then you are stuck doing the same raids/daily quests like a needle skipping on a warped record.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I still can not believe people still call fighting in an arena PVP! Go out in the world and fight; that is PVP, oh wait, you can not do that in WOW, only arena and bg. OOPS sorry your game sucks so bad for REAL PVP. Toodles, ta ta, bye bye!
But....most fighting sports are done in an "arena". Unless you consider high school fights or gang fights. And that is like making yourself look bad.
And Fyerwall,no matter what people say, arena is not easy.
I still can not believe people still call fighting in an arena PVP! Go out in the world and fight; that is PVP, oh wait, you can not do that in WOW, only arena and bg. OOPS sorry your game sucks so bad for REAL PVP. Toodles, ta ta, bye bye!
There is tons of open pvp opportunities in WoW, you can go to any daily quest zone and get all the open pvp you want. Your argument is not valid, WoW arenas and bgs are for people that want to play in competitive situations. Typical response from someone that couldn't stand not being able to bring 8 people in arenas to fight 3.
Also we must remember when WoW first came out, it was strictly open pvp. What ended up happening? Huge masses of open pvp at tauren mill/south shore. How is that any different from AV? other than it ensures both sides have an equal amount of people.
I see a lot of well thought out reasons why some ppl think WoW isn't as easy as hardcore gamers like to say. Hardcore gamers respond with comments about if WoW wasn't your first mmorpg, you'd understand, without explaining. I think it's become more cliche then anything else. You can't be hardcore and like WoW. You'll notice even a lot of the ppl that support/defend WoW usually follow it up with a comment about how they "aren't saying WoW is a great game" or "I quit because it got boring". If the ppl that defend WoW can't even admit to playing the game, is that saying something about the game, or the negative connotation associated with the WoW community. BTW, I quit WoW a year ago, it got boring.
So are we supposed to worship the game?
While it's great, it has its bad parts. Especially for me, even if not for other people.
No, not at all. Many ppl have very valid reasons for thinking WoW is easy or not for them. I just feel that many hardcore gamers hate WoW because for them it has come to represent casual gameplay. For them, being uber in a hardcore mmorpg is paramount. It becomes a defining part of their real life. If a 10 year old kid or someones grandma is playing it, it fails immediately, regardless of how hard or easy the gameplay is.
I still can not believe people still call fighting in an arena PVP! Go out in the world and fight; that is PVP, oh wait, you can not do that in WOW, only arena and bg. OOPS sorry your game sucks so bad for REAL PVP. Toodles, ta ta, bye bye!
But....most fighting sports are done in an "arena". Unless you consider high school fights or gang fights. And that is like making yourself look bad.
And Fyerwall,no matter what people say, arena is not easy.
No, arena isnt easy, and wasnt saying it is.
What I was saying is the game itself just gets redundant real quick seeing as the bulk of the game passes by faster than anything, leaving you stuck at an end game that is nothing more than repeating the same dungeons over and over again until something new comes along.
As for PvP in WoW, including Arenas, Its not as 'hardcore' as open world PvP as some might claim, but it still adds a bit more variety and the unknown to an otherwise redundant endgame.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Easy and hard are subjective. If you feel WoW is easy, then it's easy for you. If you feel WoW is hard, then it's hard for you. Michael Phelps probably thinks swimming is easy. Tiger Woods probably thinks golf is easy.
Yeah, you can't simplify it like that...
If you feel first grade math is easy, then you're normal.
If you feel first grade math is hard, then you're an idiot.
The definition of what is easy and hard is determined by the majority, so the percentage of content that can be completed by the majority, the higher the percentage then the easier the game is.
"I will not play it nor any other MMO until they make it possible to obtain the best gear without forcing people to group up to do so." SwampRob
But "hardcore" MMORPG players...in my opinion, that's plain laughable. MMORPGs were never that hard, they just need a lot of dedication through time.
You could put a casual player, give him some time, and he'll probably be hardcore. This is even more true with older MMORPG titles such as EQ, L2 or UO. I don't say it's easy in coordonating a siege, because I've been there and it's not, but it pales when compared to the hardcore players of other genres.
SC, CS, Quake, UT...that's hardcore. Most hardcore MMORPG players could never reach the style of play of the people who play those games in tourneys.
Cause of Lvling being faster? Well lvling imo, was never intended to be the main focus of WoW or any MMO for that matter.
Actually the original EQ was just a leveling game. That was indeed the main focus of the entire game.
Actually, I played EQ to explore. I got the game shortly after it first came out and I rolled a barbarian Warrior, looked at the crude map, then set out to explore the world. Sure, leveling was some part of the game, but for me the allure of PVE danger and world mysteries were the very recipe of that magical feeling.
Later they added raids, but when it released, people didn't know there would even be an "end game". Everyone was playing the game to level.
Which makes sense, since single player RPGs, and then later Multi Player games, are based on paper and pencil games like Dungeons and Dragons.
There wasn't really a "raiding" or "RvR" game, it was just leveling. When you reached max level, you started over. Same with RPg single players. You leveled, got to the end, that was it.
So yes, current MMORPGs like WoW have evolved into an "end game" focus, and made the leveling part superficial, but it's just incorrect to say leveling was never intended to be the main focus of any MMO.
but I can see how you might think that if you started playing MMORPGs with WoW.
WOW is as easy or as hard as you want to make it. You can solo to level cap or you can PVP and do group instances. Diversity, among other things that have been discussed to death, is one of the things that made the game what it is. It gives people different ways to reach the same goals.
But "hardcore" MMORPG players...in my opinion, that's plain laughable. MMORPGs were never that hard, they just need a lot of dedication through time.
You could put a casual player, give him some time, and he'll probably be hardcore. This is even more true with older MMORPG titles such as EQ, L2 or UO. I don't say it's easy in coordonating a siege, because I've been there and it's not, but it pales when compared to the hardcore players of other genres.
SC, CS, Quake, UT...that's hardcore. Most hardcore MMORPG players could never reach the style of play of the people who play those games in tourneys.
"Hardcore" MMORPG's are not really good general video game players I think.
That's why some of them have it so difficult to love WOW and certainly WOW 2009.
Blizzard took the genre and melted it with pure gaming elements these guys don't like.
The boss fights (cetainly on heroic hardest modes) these days tend to be the absolute max in numeric calculation, fast keyboard reflexes and video game elements. The same raids range from (very) easy to medium, to almost impossible. See Totc. But 99% of us mere mortals won't ever reach the last stage ...: that's the influence of a game producer in the mmo field ...
Take WoW Arena for example: the fastest eye hand coordination needed and a tremendous knowledge needed of the classes(but certainly a very fast reckon of the situations).
That's very challeging, but a lot of old timers want those zergy "massive" so called heroic fights with people on line in old fashioned mmo's. ZERO skill needed and complete out of whack in balance.
From a pure gaming point of view these uncontrollable "world fights" are a mess. But most people like to think THEY are the ones making the difference.
Arena doesn't allow these "romantic" thoughts... Arena consists of the purest video gaming elements and then add some reflexes. And .... arena ratings can NEVER be had by simply grinding over time. That's bothering most of these "old timers": the video game elements put into WOW.
From a video gaming point of view, WOW - in its end game ! - is the most challeging MMO ever designed. But from an old fashioned "mmorpg" point of view it is simply too much game for some and so they think "leveling" should be a challenge.
Blizzard included "options" and "scaling" to solve this problem, but you'll never please all people all of the time.
All I can say is ... the future of on line play is even simpler than today's .... : hop in - play for 60 minutes - hop out
The game with the best video game elements for everyone (hard, soft, gamer, socializer), wins the subs.
Don't you ever get tired of saying the same shit over and over about the same topic? this site needs new source material.
You've become boring, even the number one fanboi of WoW is predictable at this point.
But "hardcore" MMORPG players...in my opinion, that's plain laughable. MMORPGs were never that hard, they just need a lot of dedication through time.
You could put a casual player, give him some time, and he'll probably be hardcore. This is even more true with older MMORPG titles such as EQ, L2 or UO. I don't say it's easy in coordonating a siege, because I've been there and it's not, but it pales when compared to the hardcore players of other genres.
SC, CS, Quake, UT...that's hardcore. Most hardcore MMORPG players could never reach the style of play of the people who play those games in tourneys.
"Hardcore" MMORPG's are not really good general video game players I think.
That's why some of them have it so difficult to love WOW and certainly WOW 2009.
Blizzard took the genre and melted it with pure gaming elements these guys don't like.
The boss fights (cetainly on heroic hardest modes) these days tend to be the absolute max in numeric calculation, fast keyboard reflexes and video game elements. The same raids range from (very) easy to medium, to almost impossible. See Totc. But 99% of us mere mortals won't ever reach the last stage ...: that's the influence of a game producer in the mmo field ...
Take WoW Arena for example: the fastest eye hand coordination needed and a tremendous knowledge needed of the classes(but certainly a very fast reckon of the situations).
That's very challeging, but a lot of old timers want those zergy "massive" so called heroic fights with people on line in old fashioned mmo's. ZERO skill needed and complete out of whack in balance.
From a pure gaming point of view these uncontrollable "world fights" are a mess. But most people like to think THEY are the ones making the difference.
Arena doesn't allow these "romantic" thoughts... Arena consists of the purest video gaming elements and then add some reflexes. And .... arena ratings can NEVER be had by simply grinding over time. That's bothering most of these "old timers": the video game elements put into WOW.
From a video gaming point of view, WOW - in its end game ! - is the most challeging MMO ever designed. But from an old fashioned "mmorpg" point of view it is simply too much game for some and so they think "leveling" should be a challenge.
Blizzard included "options" and "scaling" to solve this problem, but you'll never please all people all of the time.
All I can say is ... the future of on line play is even simpler than today's .... : hop in - play for 60 minutes - hop out
The game with the best video game elements for everyone (hard, soft, gamer, socializer), wins the subs.
Don't you ever get tired of saying the same shit over and over about the same topic? this site needs new source material.
You've become boring, even the number one fanboi of WoW is predictable at this point.
At least he is now coming around to the point that WoW is becoming more 'video game' or console than a true MMORPG, and the twitch factor becoming the skill/difficulty. He does have a point though, WoW is no longer an RPG, it's an MMO period. There is no longer an RPG element in it, well very little anyway, and what is left is being removed that much more by each expansion and patch. This should please many people on these forums, as it infers that eventually WoW will be removed from this site all together.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
You can often distinguish two different claims when somebody says "WoW is easy". The first one has more to do with the user-friendliness of the GUIs and the simple rules for the character development. It is very easy for a newcomer to get used to the GUI, and to understand how the character will develop (with talent points). The distribution of attribute points (STR, AGI..) goes automatically as you level up, and the talent trees are easy to master. Crafting is also easy to master. The second claim is that the game is easy to beat. Well, if you don't take into account the achievements and hard modes, a new player can complete everything within a reasonable amount of time (or even shorter if he's being carried through, of course), especially under the new developer's mentality since WotLK.
The game WoW is easy to play and get going, but very very hard to master everything.
That actually is good, as there is something for just about everyone to try out. Balanced and varied. This comes at the expense of compromise, so that for some very focused players, who only want 1 thing in a game WoW may not be the choice.
Say, for gamers who want to grief everyone all the time, WoW may not be the best game to pick. But for the majority, WoW is a game that has a wide span of appeal.
But "hardcore" MMORPG players...in my opinion, that's plain laughable. MMORPGs were never that hard, they just need a lot of dedication through time.
You could put a casual player, give him some time, and he'll probably be hardcore. This is even more true with older MMORPG titles such as EQ, L2 or UO. I don't say it's easy in coordonating a siege, because I've been there and it's not, but it pales when compared to the hardcore players of other genres.
SC, CS, Quake, UT...that's hardcore. Most hardcore MMORPG players could never reach the style of play of the people who play those games in tourneys.
"Hardcore" MMORPG's are not really good general video game players I think.
That's why some of them have it so difficult to love WOW and certainly WOW 2009.
Blizzard took the genre and melted it with pure gaming elements these guys don't like.
The boss fights (cetainly on heroic hardest modes) these days tend to be the absolute max in numeric calculation, fast keyboard reflexes and video game elements. The same raids range from (very) easy to medium, to almost impossible. See Totc. But 99% of us mere mortals won't ever reach the last stage ...: that's the influence of a game producer in the mmo field ...
Take WoW Arena for example: the fastest eye hand coordination needed and a tremendous knowledge needed of the classes(but certainly a very fast reckon of the situations).
That's very challeging, but a lot of old timers want those zergy "massive" so called heroic fights with people on line in old fashioned mmo's. ZERO skill needed and complete out of whack in balance.
From a pure gaming point of view these uncontrollable "world fights" are a mess. But most people like to think THEY are the ones making the difference.
Arena doesn't allow these "romantic" thoughts... Arena consists of the purest video gaming elements and then add some reflexes. And .... arena ratings can NEVER be had by simply grinding over time. That's bothering most of these "old timers": the video game elements put into WOW.
From a video gaming point of view, WOW - in its end game ! - is the most challeging MMO ever designed. But from an old fashioned "mmorpg" point of view it is simply too much game for some and so they think "leveling" should be a challenge.
Blizzard included "options" and "scaling" to solve this problem, but you'll never please all people all of the time.
All I can say is ... the future of on line play is even simpler than today's .... : hop in - play for 60 minutes - hop out
The game with the best video game elements for everyone (hard, soft, gamer, socializer), wins the subs.
Don't you ever get tired of saying the same shit over and over about the same topic? this site needs new source material.
You've become boring, even the number one fanboi of WoW is predictable at this point.
At least he is now coming around to the point that WoW is becoming more 'video game' or console than a true MMORPG, and the twitch factor becoming the skill/difficulty. He does have a point though, WoW is no longer an RPG, it's an MMO period. There is no longer an RPG element in it, well very little anyway, and what is left is being removed that much more by each expansion and patch. This should please many people on these forums, as it infers that eventually WoW will be removed from this site all together.
This I have to disagree in some way.
The character building aspect of WoW is still very deep and fun. There are many dimensions in building a character, minimaxing for each type of gameplay is not a simple process, and is always changing with patches after patches of balancing, new skills and options. Take a druid. Soon heals over time (or dots over time) depends on haste, that is a ground breaking change, and totally rewrites the minimaxing gameplay for druids.
Whether character development = role is a matter of opinion. Your view my view.
Since playing Aion, I'll likely never return to WoW. I get tired of unchallenging content in any MMO, whether its WoW or not. Questing and not feeling a sence of fear of death for me gets old very fast. In Aion I fear death around every corner, the way it should be in an MMO imo. So ya, WoW is way to easy and bland for my taste anymore.
People who say WoW is easy mode haven't played WoW.
One day, someone got mad at the fact they suck at WoW and said "Man, WoW is too easy!!!"
Quickly that spread like a disease (only to the ignorant and biased) and everyone started saying it.
This also spread to the "hardcore" (or in other words, the masochistic weirdos who get off on their own and others' pain) and since WoW is only full of SOME time-sinks and life-wasting grinding instead of EVERYTHING being a time-sink and long grind, they labeled it "easy mode".
I find it rather ignorant and idiotic (bc it's totally biased) that some people relate "easy" to how it doesn't take away ALL of your life and instead just takes away MOST of it. Bc to be fair, WoW only takes away MOST of your life. Games like Darkfall take away ALL of your life. LoL.
What MMO isn't full of time-sinks and mindless grinding to eventually achieve fun AFTER all the work? Well, WoW has all the time-sinks but is actually fun while you level up as opposed to Darkfall which requires more work before the fun begins. In that, somehow WoW becomes easier, even though it requires no more skill than Darkfall.
It's never about player skill. Easy or Hard in MMO language is based on how long it takes before you to start having fun, and how boring it is while you're doing the "work".
Since playing Aion, I'll likely never return to WoW. I get tired of unchallenging content in any MMO, whether its WoW or not. Questing and not feeling a sence of fear of death for me gets old very fast. In Aion I fear death around every corner, the way it should be in an MMO imo. So ya, WoW is way to easy and bland for my taste anymore.
Unchallenging content? I have yet to clear 25ToGC and some of the Ulduar hardmodes. You must be a member of the few guilds on earth that have cleared 25ToGC. Less than a hundred people has that out of 5million or 12million subscribers.
Cannot call that unchallenging to me. Can you talk more about how you clear all those achievements?
Comments
I see a lot of well thought out reasons why some ppl think WoW isn't as easy as hardcore gamers like to say. Hardcore gamers respond with comments about if WoW wasn't your first mmorpg, you'd understand, without explaining. I think it's become more cliche then anything else. You can't be hardcore and like WoW. You'll notice even a lot of the ppl that support/defend WoW usually follow it up with a comment about how they "aren't saying WoW is a great game" or "I quit because it got boring". If the ppl that defend WoW can't even admit to playing the game, is that saying something about the game, or the negative connotation associated with the WoW community. BTW, I quit WoW a year ago, it got boring.
honestly the only thing that would bring me back to WoW would be some mass MEANINGFUL pvp like the lineage 2 castle sieges.
Thats the biggest problem with games today. Most new gamers started with WoW, and most of the only open pvp games they know of are Aion,AoC, or DF. The problem with this that hardly anyone remember the great RvR pvp of DAoC, or the open pvp of Shadowbane. Or the original kids on the bloack UO,or AC.
Uh, even before WoW most were fleeing fair fights :-)
Though I have very good memories of huge sieges in Shadowbane, until everybody started using the lag ball strategy...
WoW has been out for 5 years now, although a great game that i played for just over 4 years. It just gets repetitive after a while, my last year of WoW all I really did was play arenas, i got gladiator on my priest 2 seasons in a row and threw in the towel.
i'm not really positive on what point you're trying to make, but I would never deny that I played WoW and loved it for 4 years. The only thing that I hate about WoW is the game is to damn good, it ruins all other games for me when I compare it to WoW. The only game i've played that caught my interest since WoW is EVE, but thats because the games are sooo different.
So are we supposed to worship the game?
While it's great, it has its bad parts. Especially for me, even if not for other people.
Meaningful open PvP (Lineage 2) is very difficult to implement in WoW. That's because:
One of the main flaws of Lineage 2 is that full-loot is now allowed as it makes the gained equipment pernament (augmentation system even more assured that). That means that by camping bosses the most powerful clans would fortify their dominance by out-gearing everyone. Then they'll take out a castle after castle and in the end the competition is defeated. What's then? Exactly, they start ganking lowbies and other people because they are dominant. As Lineage 2 is all about competition, the game is over....
Such a situation exist in the majority of Lineage 2 servers (both retail and private).
I still can not believe people still call fighting in an arena PVP! Go out in the world and fight; that is PVP, oh wait, you can not do that in WOW, only arena and bg. OOPS sorry your game sucks so bad for REAL PVP.
Toodles, ta ta, bye bye!
Meaningful open PvP (Lineage 2) is very difficult to implement in WoW. That's because:
One of the main flaws of Lineage 2 is that full-loot is now allowed as it makes the gained equipment pernament (augmentation system even more assured that). That means that by camping bosses the most powerful clans would fortify their dominance by out-gearing everyone. Then they'll take out a castle after castle and in the end the competition is defeated. What's then? Exactly, they start ganking lowbies and other people because they are dominant. As Lineage 2 is all about competition, the game is over....
Such a situation exist in the majority of Lineage 2 servers (both retail and private).
You're right thats exactly what happened on the server I played on Gustin. The game was really fun for the first year until one Alliance had the most high levels + best gear, and then it stopped being competitive. They went on to control all the castles, and then WoW came out and I left.
WoW is easy, no matter what anyone says. And thats the beauty of the game, as it was never meant to be 'hard' or 'hardcore'. Even the devs have stated this throughout development and release.
The point of the game was that any player could pick it up and start playing without needed to spend hours learning anything about the game.
Now is it too easy? Depends on the player and how much time they spend in the game. To me, the game wasnt 'too easy'... the game was just redundant once you hit max level. While you are leveling up the game is entertaining, between the quest lines, the characters, the NPC stories, etc. Once you hit level 80 you run into the brick wall of Dailies and Raids. Thats all there is. And I didnt mention PvP for the simple reason that BGs are fun every now and then, but doing them too often gets boring real quick. Same goes for arena play.
The game is just over too quickly (if you sneeze while playing the middle game, you might miss everything) and then you are stuck doing the same raids/daily quests like a needle skipping on a warped record.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
But....most fighting sports are done in an "arena". Unless you consider high school fights or gang fights. And that is like making yourself look bad.
And Fyerwall,no matter what people say, arena is not easy.
There is tons of open pvp opportunities in WoW, you can go to any daily quest zone and get all the open pvp you want. Your argument is not valid, WoW arenas and bgs are for people that want to play in competitive situations. Typical response from someone that couldn't stand not being able to bring 8 people in arenas to fight 3.
Also we must remember when WoW first came out, it was strictly open pvp. What ended up happening? Huge masses of open pvp at tauren mill/south shore. How is that any different from AV? other than it ensures both sides have an equal amount of people.
So are we supposed to worship the game?
While it's great, it has its bad parts. Especially for me, even if not for other people.
No, not at all. Many ppl have very valid reasons for thinking WoW is easy or not for them. I just feel that many hardcore gamers hate WoW because for them it has come to represent casual gameplay. For them, being uber in a hardcore mmorpg is paramount. It becomes a defining part of their real life. If a 10 year old kid or someones grandma is playing it, it fails immediately, regardless of how hard or easy the gameplay is.
But....most fighting sports are done in an "arena". Unless you consider high school fights or gang fights. And that is like making yourself look bad.
And Fyerwall,no matter what people say, arena is not easy.
No, arena isnt easy, and wasnt saying it is.
What I was saying is the game itself just gets redundant real quick seeing as the bulk of the game passes by faster than anything, leaving you stuck at an end game that is nothing more than repeating the same dungeons over and over again until something new comes along.
As for PvP in WoW, including Arenas, Its not as 'hardcore' as open world PvP as some might claim, but it still adds a bit more variety and the unknown to an otherwise redundant endgame.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Yeah, you can't simplify it like that...
If you feel first grade math is easy, then you're normal.
If you feel first grade math is hard, then you're an idiot.
The definition of what is easy and hard is determined by the majority, so the percentage of content that can be completed by the majority, the higher the percentage then the easier the game is.
"I will not play it nor any other MMO until they make it possible to obtain the best gear without forcing people to group up to do so." SwampRob
But "hardcore" MMORPG players...in my opinion, that's plain laughable. MMORPGs were never that hard, they just need a lot of dedication through time.
You could put a casual player, give him some time, and he'll probably be hardcore. This is even more true with older MMORPG titles such as EQ, L2 or UO. I don't say it's easy in coordonating a siege, because I've been there and it's not, but it pales when compared to the hardcore players of other genres.
SC, CS, Quake, UT...that's hardcore. Most hardcore MMORPG players could never reach the style of play of the people who play those games in tourneys.
Actually the original EQ was just a leveling game. That was indeed the main focus of the entire game.
Actually, I played EQ to explore. I got the game shortly after it first came out and I rolled a barbarian Warrior, looked at the crude map, then set out to explore the world. Sure, leveling was some part of the game, but for me the allure of PVE danger and world mysteries were the very recipe of that magical feeling.
Later they added raids, but when it released, people didn't know there would even be an "end game". Everyone was playing the game to level.
Which makes sense, since single player RPGs, and then later Multi Player games, are based on paper and pencil games like Dungeons and Dragons.
There wasn't really a "raiding" or "RvR" game, it was just leveling. When you reached max level, you started over. Same with RPg single players. You leveled, got to the end, that was it.
So yes, current MMORPGs like WoW have evolved into an "end game" focus, and made the leveling part superficial, but it's just incorrect to say leveling was never intended to be the main focus of any MMO.
but I can see how you might think that if you started playing MMORPGs with WoW.
WOW is as easy or as hard as you want to make it. You can solo to level cap or you can PVP and do group instances. Diversity, among other things that have been discussed to death, is one of the things that made the game what it is. It gives people different ways to reach the same goals.
"Hardcore" MMORPG's are not really good general video game players I think.
That's why some of them have it so difficult to love WOW and certainly WOW 2009.
Blizzard took the genre and melted it with pure gaming elements these guys don't like.
The boss fights (cetainly on heroic hardest modes) these days tend to be the absolute max in numeric calculation, fast keyboard reflexes and video game elements. The same raids range from (very) easy to medium, to almost impossible. See Totc. But 99% of us mere mortals won't ever reach the last stage ...: that's the influence of a game producer in the mmo field ...
Take WoW Arena for example: the fastest eye hand coordination needed and a tremendous knowledge needed of the classes(but certainly a very fast reckon of the situations).
That's very challeging, but a lot of old timers want those zergy "massive" so called heroic fights with people on line in old fashioned mmo's. ZERO skill needed and complete out of whack in balance.
From a pure gaming point of view these uncontrollable "world fights" are a mess. But most people like to think THEY are the ones making the difference.
Arena doesn't allow these "romantic" thoughts... Arena consists of the purest video gaming elements and then add some reflexes. And .... arena ratings can NEVER be had by simply grinding over time. That's bothering most of these "old timers": the video game elements put into WOW.
From a video gaming point of view, WOW - in its end game ! - is the most challeging MMO ever designed. But from an old fashioned "mmorpg" point of view it is simply too much game for some and so they think "leveling" should be a challenge.
Blizzard included "options" and "scaling" to solve this problem, but you'll never please all people all of the time.
All I can say is ... the future of on line play is even simpler than today's .... : hop in - play for 60 minutes - hop out
The game with the best video game elements for everyone (hard, soft, gamer, socializer), wins the subs.
Don't you ever get tired of saying the same shit over and over about the same topic? this site needs new source material.
You've become boring, even the number one fanboi of WoW is predictable at this point.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
"Hardcore" MMORPG's are not really good general video game players I think.
That's why some of them have it so difficult to love WOW and certainly WOW 2009.
Blizzard took the genre and melted it with pure gaming elements these guys don't like.
The boss fights (cetainly on heroic hardest modes) these days tend to be the absolute max in numeric calculation, fast keyboard reflexes and video game elements. The same raids range from (very) easy to medium, to almost impossible. See Totc. But 99% of us mere mortals won't ever reach the last stage ...: that's the influence of a game producer in the mmo field ...
Take WoW Arena for example: the fastest eye hand coordination needed and a tremendous knowledge needed of the classes(but certainly a very fast reckon of the situations).
That's very challeging, but a lot of old timers want those zergy "massive" so called heroic fights with people on line in old fashioned mmo's. ZERO skill needed and complete out of whack in balance.
From a pure gaming point of view these uncontrollable "world fights" are a mess. But most people like to think THEY are the ones making the difference.
Arena doesn't allow these "romantic" thoughts... Arena consists of the purest video gaming elements and then add some reflexes. And .... arena ratings can NEVER be had by simply grinding over time. That's bothering most of these "old timers": the video game elements put into WOW.
From a video gaming point of view, WOW - in its end game ! - is the most challeging MMO ever designed. But from an old fashioned "mmorpg" point of view it is simply too much game for some and so they think "leveling" should be a challenge.
Blizzard included "options" and "scaling" to solve this problem, but you'll never please all people all of the time.
All I can say is ... the future of on line play is even simpler than today's .... : hop in - play for 60 minutes - hop out
The game with the best video game elements for everyone (hard, soft, gamer, socializer), wins the subs.
Don't you ever get tired of saying the same shit over and over about the same topic? this site needs new source material.
You've become boring, even the number one fanboi of WoW is predictable at this point.
At least he is now coming around to the point that WoW is becoming more 'video game' or console than a true MMORPG, and the twitch factor becoming the skill/difficulty. He does have a point though, WoW is no longer an RPG, it's an MMO period. There is no longer an RPG element in it, well very little anyway, and what is left is being removed that much more by each expansion and patch. This should please many people on these forums, as it infers that eventually WoW will be removed from this site all together.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
The game is as easy as you make it, look at it this way.
Trial of the Grand Crusader 25: 5 Guilds in the world have cleared it with 50 attempts remaining.
Achievements: 1 player in the world has all achievements
Like i said, its as easy as you make it.
The game WoW is easy to play and get going, but very very hard to master everything.
That actually is good, as there is something for just about everyone to try out. Balanced and varied. This comes at the expense of compromise, so that for some very focused players, who only want 1 thing in a game WoW may not be the choice.
Say, for gamers who want to grief everyone all the time, WoW may not be the best game to pick. But for the majority, WoW is a game that has a wide span of appeal.
"Hardcore" MMORPG's are not really good general video game players I think.
That's why some of them have it so difficult to love WOW and certainly WOW 2009.
Blizzard took the genre and melted it with pure gaming elements these guys don't like.
The boss fights (cetainly on heroic hardest modes) these days tend to be the absolute max in numeric calculation, fast keyboard reflexes and video game elements. The same raids range from (very) easy to medium, to almost impossible. See Totc. But 99% of us mere mortals won't ever reach the last stage ...: that's the influence of a game producer in the mmo field ...
Take WoW Arena for example: the fastest eye hand coordination needed and a tremendous knowledge needed of the classes(but certainly a very fast reckon of the situations).
That's very challeging, but a lot of old timers want those zergy "massive" so called heroic fights with people on line in old fashioned mmo's. ZERO skill needed and complete out of whack in balance.
From a pure gaming point of view these uncontrollable "world fights" are a mess. But most people like to think THEY are the ones making the difference.
Arena doesn't allow these "romantic" thoughts... Arena consists of the purest video gaming elements and then add some reflexes. And .... arena ratings can NEVER be had by simply grinding over time. That's bothering most of these "old timers": the video game elements put into WOW.
From a video gaming point of view, WOW - in its end game ! - is the most challeging MMO ever designed. But from an old fashioned "mmorpg" point of view it is simply too much game for some and so they think "leveling" should be a challenge.
Blizzard included "options" and "scaling" to solve this problem, but you'll never please all people all of the time.
All I can say is ... the future of on line play is even simpler than today's .... : hop in - play for 60 minutes - hop out
The game with the best video game elements for everyone (hard, soft, gamer, socializer), wins the subs.
Don't you ever get tired of saying the same shit over and over about the same topic? this site needs new source material.
You've become boring, even the number one fanboi of WoW is predictable at this point.
At least he is now coming around to the point that WoW is becoming more 'video game' or console than a true MMORPG, and the twitch factor becoming the skill/difficulty. He does have a point though, WoW is no longer an RPG, it's an MMO period. There is no longer an RPG element in it, well very little anyway, and what is left is being removed that much more by each expansion and patch. This should please many people on these forums, as it infers that eventually WoW will be removed from this site all together.
This I have to disagree in some way.
The character building aspect of WoW is still very deep and fun. There are many dimensions in building a character, minimaxing for each type of gameplay is not a simple process, and is always changing with patches after patches of balancing, new skills and options. Take a druid. Soon heals over time (or dots over time) depends on haste, that is a ground breaking change, and totally rewrites the minimaxing gameplay for druids.
Whether character development = role is a matter of opinion. Your view my view.
Since playing Aion, I'll likely never return to WoW. I get tired of unchallenging content in any MMO, whether its WoW or not. Questing and not feeling a sence of fear of death for me gets old very fast. In Aion I fear death around every corner, the way it should be in an MMO imo. So ya, WoW is way to easy and bland for my taste anymore.
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
People who say WoW is easy mode haven't played WoW.
One day, someone got mad at the fact they suck at WoW and said "Man, WoW is too easy!!!"
Quickly that spread like a disease (only to the ignorant and biased) and everyone started saying it.
This also spread to the "hardcore" (or in other words, the masochistic weirdos who get off on their own and others' pain) and since WoW is only full of SOME time-sinks and life-wasting grinding instead of EVERYTHING being a time-sink and long grind, they labeled it "easy mode".
I find it rather ignorant and idiotic (bc it's totally biased) that some people relate "easy" to how it doesn't take away ALL of your life and instead just takes away MOST of it. Bc to be fair, WoW only takes away MOST of your life. Games like Darkfall take away ALL of your life. LoL.
What MMO isn't full of time-sinks and mindless grinding to eventually achieve fun AFTER all the work? Well, WoW has all the time-sinks but is actually fun while you level up as opposed to Darkfall which requires more work before the fun begins. In that, somehow WoW becomes easier, even though it requires no more skill than Darkfall.
It's never about player skill. Easy or Hard in MMO language is based on how long it takes before you to start having fun, and how boring it is while you're doing the "work".
Unchallenging content? I have yet to clear 25ToGC and some of the Ulduar hardmodes. You must be a member of the few guilds on earth that have cleared 25ToGC. Less than a hundred people has that out of 5million or 12million subscribers.
Cannot call that unchallenging to me. Can you talk more about how you clear all those achievements?