To those that say the people playing WOW are MMO vets could someone explain to me where these people earned their vet status? The sub numbers of games pre WOW do not add up to what Blizz "claims" their subscriber numbers are and if you add in what other games say they hold in subs the numbers get even more fantastic. So in short, where did they all come from?
Its obviously a combination of veteran MMO players and people entirely new to the genre. I have been playing MMOs since Ultima Online and I played WoW for 4 years. Many of my friends were the same way. However, I also have many friends from WoW who had never before touched an MMO. So Blizzard took in many MMO vets and added millions to the genre at the same time...
As for where we got our MMO vet status, obviously from playing other MMOs. For me - UO, AC, EQ, DAOC, L2, SWG, etc. You might think MMO vets don't play WOW, but you would be wrong.
Of course most MMO vets have played WOW. However, I have a hard time believing the majority , of "vets" still play it. And even if every "vet" who ever played the game is still playing they would be a minority with the sub numbers blizz claims.
The entire paying market for mmo players prior to wows release was close to 7 million. Not including free to play, players who left the market, those who tried mmos prior to wow and just didn't enjoy them, etc. I think the online market was a whole lot bigger than most people realized. EQ had 550k in 2004, but a lot of people came and went over those 5 years. I will bet you everquest alone easily saw several million different players in its first few years.
Yet I don't see anyone claiming that the majority of wow players are mmo vets as you seem to think was stated.
However, looking at how popular online games have been in the eastern market for so long and the majority of wow players coming from the eastern market, I would not be surprised if that was true.
11 million? I thought WOW was closed in China. It's still running?
Wow the haters on this site truely seem to act like that makes WoW any less of the great game that it has been all along.
It still grows else where, and the only reason for the number lost was over a ban. just think of where other mmos would be if they just randomly got a chuck of their population banned.
I can only speak from my own perspective. I'm in a WoW guild of around ~200 members and only a handful of them entered the genre with WoW. A large proportion of them play multiple MMOs at once. My own experience started with Ultima Online; I currently play both WoW and EVE.
Niche gamers like to try and write off the WoW playing demographics as "consoleers" or simply "not MMO fans". I understand why; take WoW out of the equation and niche based games hold up much better (subscription wise) against the competition.
It's just wishful thinking.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
If thats the theory, then why doesnt Old School Hard core MMO players find a decent mmo to play? I see lots of them here complaing about how the MMO genre has gotten so bad, yet they too reject games like Darkfall and AoC which both tried different things.
Because the old school hard core MMO players are hardly monolithic. They can't agree on what a "decent" MMO might be. Some demand FFA playerlooting PvP, some demand a sandbox, some demand harsh death penalties.
What they can agree on is that WoW is too damn slick for its own good, because it expanded the market and let all these dweebs into it.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Originally posted by metalhead980 The people on this forum are not the majority of mmo gamer. We make up at most 5% of the overall gamer population. Ask WoW players if they like to play MMOs. Half of the responses you get will be "what's an MMO?" and the other half will be "No I don't like MMOs only WoW" These players will all leave for consoles, shooters and blizzard battlenet games.
One of those rare times that I will fully agree with metal.
It seems many MMO fans resent the massive WOW playerbase for rewarding what they see as lazy, derivative and "dumbed down" gameplay... among other things. They feel rewarding the WOW route and not even being bothered to check out the more innovative, broader or deeper MMO mechanics in some other games is stagnating the genre.
What they're missing is, as metal so incisively put, a big part of that playerbase does not even have a conception of what an MMO is. To them, WOW is just a game you play with other people, you do stuff that in the end makes you more powerful and allows you to wear new stuff and go to new places in the gameworld. That's it!
I've closely observed what happens when many people who got into the whole MMO thing with WOW try some other MMOs:
a) They mostly can't tell it apart from WOW, because, you know, again you get to slay monsters and do quests and get XP and level up and get new skills and run dungeons and... well, you get my drift.
b) Where they can tell them part, they don't like what the "new" games do that sets them apart!.. Because it throws off that second-nature thing they've developed with WOW.
Now, you may think this is a bit of a dilemma, but I figure it's just because the MMOs in themselves do not have enough breadth to keep luring new customers yet. Many WOW players were introduced not just to massively multiplayer online gaming, but also the RPG genre with WOW, so now any new MMO-RPG seems a bit samey and inconsequential to them, because that wonder and awe is just not there. These are the casual playerbase at large who keep looking for new and exciting gaming experiences and just another fantasy MMORPG with levels and quests probably won't suffice to keep them, however polished it is.
The genre has to diversify. Or it has to make new big products out of the invisible indie diversification that's always going on out there. It has to borrow from the small innovative ones and polish them to the point that it will present a new gameplay experience to the potential gamers (not just MMO players).
Or I agree the ex-WOW players will sooner play Farmville.
If thats the theory, then why doesnt Old School Hard core MMO players find a decent mmo to play? I see lots of them here complaing about how the MMO genre has gotten so bad, yet they too reject games like Darkfall and AoC which both tried different things.
Age of Conan didn't try anything different. It was just a bad game, that's why it was rejected. A bad game feeding false information from a shady company, with little to no content. The only content they had in game at launch was an instanced tutorial zone. The gameplay mechanics were almost copy and pasted from WoW. How is that anything different?
As for Darkfall, its more a niche of a niche. Not all oldschool gamers like FFA PvP. I do not entirely enjoy it, but I have to say, I've grown to like it. I play Darkfall because there really are no other MMOs like it out there, that combine oldschool MMO mentality (oldschool does NOT mean hardcore, it can translate to better more detailed design and a more realistic world than a super casual fun land with no penalties or accountability) with some new features not seen before in MMOs. I also played Vanguard, which was an oldschool style MMO, it sold like hotcakes and people were desperate to play it, but sadly, the game was largely unfinished. So the answer to your question is, there aren't tons of people playing this "hardcore" games because a really really high budget hardcore game has not been remotely attempted.
1) So people who play mmos are not fans of mmos? How could anyone possibly argue with logic such as this. People who play wow are mmos fans, like it or not. They are also people who play video games, like it or not.
2) Even non-wow players are not sticking around the piece of shit games that are getting released. You focus your attention so much on wow that you don't see the overall picture.
There are several games that offer nearly identical gameplay to wow and people did not flock to them as you want to think is the case. The problem is that new games suck and no one wants to stick around those games, no matter how hard you want to pin that on one segment of players.
3) Yes all these non-mmo fans sure are buying a lot of new mmos for a group of people you say do not like mmos or even video games. They just love buying new games that they have no interest in, because they are not gamers like you and there is no way they will ever like anything but warcraft.
Your logic is so out of whack it isn't even funny. Just because the majority of people do not agree with your views doesn't make them lesser gamers. It just makes your opinion a minority.
It could be argued that a decent portion of people playing WoW are not the type that would normally play an MMO. They play WoW because of the Warcraft franchise, and the Blizzard brand. It's so easy to get by soloing everything up until end game, that a lot of players are very solo-centric and anti-grouping. Ironically, because WoW is their first MMO, and they don't really have interest to seek out any other MMO, they tend not to realize just how poorly done, or lacking in features WoW can be, so they blindly put up with it, or leave MMOs altogether when they get bored with WoW.
Hey cant you solo in Sandbox games like Vanguard and Ruinscape?
1) So people who play mmos are not fans of mmos? How could anyone possibly argue with logic such as this. People who play wow are mmos fans, like it or not. They are also people who play video games, like it or not.
2) Even non-wow players are not sticking around the piece of shit games that are getting released. You focus your attention so much on wow that you don't see the overall picture.
There are several games that offer nearly identical gameplay to wow and people did not flock to them as you want to think is the case. The problem is that new games suck and no one wants to stick around those games, no matter how hard you want to pin that on one segment of players.
3) Yes all these non-mmo fans sure are buying a lot of new mmos for a group of people you say do not like mmos or even video games. They just love buying new games that they have no interest in, because they are not gamers like you and there is no way they will ever like anything but warcraft.
Your logic is so out of whack it isn't even funny. Just because the majority of people do not agree with your views doesn't make them lesser gamers. It just makes your opinion a minority.
It could be argued that a decent portion of people playing WoW are not the type that would normally play an MMO. They play WoW because of the Warcraft franchise, and the Blizzard brand. It's so easy to get by soloing everything up until end game, that a lot of players are very solo-centric and anti-grouping. Ironically, because WoW is their first MMO, and they don't really have interest to seek out any other MMO, they tend not to realize just how poorly done, or lacking in features WoW can be, so they blindly put up with it, or leave MMOs altogether when they get bored with WoW.
Hey cant you solo in Sandbox games like Vanguard and Ruinscape?
Have we really reached a day and age, where all other MMOs are so sad, shallow and linear, that RUNESCAPE, the butt of every internet joke before WoW came along, is considered sandbox? Oh kill me now...
Difference is, soloing is always an option, but grouping should always be encouraged.
1) So people who play mmos are not fans of mmos? How could anyone possibly argue with logic such as this. People who play wow are mmos fans, like it or not. They are also people who play video games, like it or not.
2) Even non-wow players are not sticking around the piece of shit games that are getting released. You focus your attention so much on wow that you don't see the overall picture.
There are several games that offer nearly identical gameplay to wow and people did not flock to them as you want to think is the case. The problem is that new games suck and no one wants to stick around those games, no matter how hard you want to pin that on one segment of players.
3) Yes all these non-mmo fans sure are buying a lot of new mmos for a group of people you say do not like mmos or even video games. They just love buying new games that they have no interest in, because they are not gamers like you and there is no way they will ever like anything but warcraft.
Your logic is so out of whack it isn't even funny. Just because the majority of people do not agree with your views doesn't make them lesser gamers. It just makes your opinion a minority.
It could be argued that a decent portion of people playing WoW are not the type that would normally play an MMO. They play WoW because of the Warcraft franchise, and the Blizzard brand. It's so easy to get by soloing everything up until end game, that a lot of players are very solo-centric and anti-grouping. Ironically, because WoW is their first MMO, and they don't really have interest to seek out any other MMO, they tend not to realize just how poorly done, or lacking in features WoW can be, so they blindly put up with it, or leave MMOs altogether when they get bored with WoW.
Hey cant you solo in Sandbox games like Vanguard and Ruinscape?
Have we really reached a day and age, where all other MMOs are so sad, shallow and linear, that RUNESCAPE, the butt of every internet joke before WoW came along, is considered sandbox? Oh kill me now...
Difference is, soloing is always an option, but grouping should always be encouraged.
Its still a Sandbox by people on this site's definiton. It has major freedom of gameplay. If thats not Sandbox, then wat does SB mean?
Originally posted by metalhead980 The people on this forum are not the majority of mmo gamer. We make up at most 5% of the overall gamer population. Ask WoW players if they like to play MMOs. Half of the responses you get will be "what's an MMO?" and the other half will be "No I don't like MMOs only WoW" These players will all leave for consoles, shooters and blizzard battlenet games.
One of those rare times that I will fully agree with metal.
It seems many MMO fans resent the massive WOW playerbase for rewarding what they see as lazy, derivative and "dumbed down" gameplay... among other things. They feel rewarding the WOW route and not even being bothered to check out the more innovative, broader or deeper MMO mechanics in some other games is stagnating the genre.
What they're missing is, as metal so incisively put, a big part of that playerbase does not even have a conception of what an MMO is. To them, WOW is just a game you play with other people, you do stuff that in the end makes you more powerful and allows you to wear new stuff and go to new places in the gameworld. That's it!
I've closely observed what happens when many people who got into the whole MMO thing with WOW try some other MMOs:
a) They mostly can't tell it apart from WOW, because, you know, again you get to slay monsters and do quests and get XP and level up and get new skills and run dungeons and... well, you get my drift.
b) Where they can tell them part, they don't like what the "new" games do that sets them apart!.. Because it throws off that second-nature thing they've developed with WOW.
Now, you may think this is a bit of a dilemma, but I figure it's just because the MMOs in themselves do not have enough breadth to keep luring new customers yet. Many WOW players were introduced not just to massively multiplayer online gaming, but also the RPG genre with WOW, so now any new MMO-RPG seems a bit samey and inconsequential to them, because that wonder and awe is just not there. These are the casual playerbase at large who keep looking for new and exciting gaming experiences and just another fantasy MMORPG with levels and quests probably won't suffice to keep them, however polished it is.
The genre has to diversify. Or it has to make new big products out of the invisible indie diversification that's always going on out there. It has to borrow from the small innovative ones and polish them to the point that it will present a new gameplay experience to the potential gamers (not just MMO players).
Or I agree the ex-WOW players will sooner play Farmville.
If thats the theory, then why doesnt Old School Hard core MMO players find a decent mmo to play? I see lots of them here complaing about how the MMO genre has gotten so bad, yet they too reject games like Darkfall and AoC which both tried different things.
Age of Conan didn't try anything different. It was just a bad game, that's why it was rejected. A bad game feeding false information from a shady company, with little to no content. The only content they had in game at launch was an instanced tutorial zone. The gameplay mechanics were almost copy and pasted from WoW. How is that anything different?
As for Darkfall, its more a niche of a niche. Not all oldschool gamers like FFA PvP. I do not entirely enjoy it, but I have to say, I've grown to like it. I play Darkfall because there really are no other MMOs like it out there, that combine oldschool MMO mentality (oldschool does NOT mean hardcore, it can translate to better more detailed design and a more realistic world than a super casual fun land with no penalties or accountability) with some new features not seen before in MMOs. I also played Vanguard, which was an oldschool style MMO, it sold like hotcakes and people were desperate to play it, but sadly, the game was largely unfinished. So the answer to your question is, there aren't tons of people playing this "hardcore" games because a really really high budget hardcore game has not been remotely attempted.
But wasnt Old School MMO gamers use to the idea on Unfinished releases? So what made this any different for these games. Plus that have gotton much better.
So iam still confused about What Old School hard core MMO players truely Want.
1) So people who play mmos are not fans of mmos? How could anyone possibly argue with logic such as this. People who play wow are mmos fans, like it or not. They are also people who play video games, like it or not.
2) Even non-wow players are not sticking around the piece of shit games that are getting released. You focus your attention so much on wow that you don't see the overall picture.
There are several games that offer nearly identical gameplay to wow and people did not flock to them as you want to think is the case. The problem is that new games suck and no one wants to stick around those games, no matter how hard you want to pin that on one segment of players.
3) Yes all these non-mmo fans sure are buying a lot of new mmos for a group of people you say do not like mmos or even video games. They just love buying new games that they have no interest in, because they are not gamers like you and there is no way they will ever like anything but warcraft.
Your logic is so out of whack it isn't even funny. Just because the majority of people do not agree with your views doesn't make them lesser gamers. It just makes your opinion a minority.
It could be argued that a decent portion of people playing WoW are not the type that would normally play an MMO. They play WoW because of the Warcraft franchise, and the Blizzard brand. It's so easy to get by soloing everything up until end game, that a lot of players are very solo-centric and anti-grouping. Ironically, because WoW is their first MMO, and they don't really have interest to seek out any other MMO, they tend not to realize just how poorly done, or lacking in features WoW can be, so they blindly put up with it, or leave MMOs altogether when they get bored with WoW.
Hey cant you solo in Sandbox games like Vanguard and Ruinscape?
Have we really reached a day and age, where all other MMOs are so sad, shallow and linear, that RUNESCAPE, the butt of every internet joke before WoW came along, is considered sandbox? Oh kill me now...
Difference is, soloing is always an option, but grouping should always be encouraged.
Its still a Sandbox by people on this site's definiton. It has major freedom of gameplay. If thats not Sandbox, then wat does SB mean?
It's supposed to have freedom, but also have player-created content and overall play-driven gameplay, a lot of gameplay paths and choices, non-combat jobs, etc. Of course, since no AAA companies are willing to do something like this, they'll end up like Darkfall.
A "What if" topic about WoW of course degenerates into nothing more than a WoW bashing thread. Congratulations to Metalhead and the other WoW trolls for continuing to ruin any and all threads about WoW. Metalhead - your broad sweeping generalizations about the WoW playerbase and on WoWs gameplay and end game only proves that you're a bigot.
Originally posted by metalhead980 Originally posted by Xiaoki A "What if" topic about WoW of course degenerates into nothing more than a WoW bashing thread. Congratulations to Metalhead and the other WoW trolls for continuing to ruin any and all threads about WoW. Metalhead - your broad sweeping generalizations about the WoW playerbase and on WoWs gameplay and end game only proves that you're a bigot.
LOL did you just call me a Bigot of videogames? HAHAHAHAHA! Get a life? From Merriam-Webster
Originally posted by Xiaoki Originally posted by metalhead980 Originally posted by Xiaoki A "What if" topic about WoW of course degenerates into nothing more than a WoW bashing thread. Congratulations to Metalhead and the other WoW trolls for continuing to ruin any and all threads about WoW. Metalhead - your broad sweeping generalizations about the WoW playerbase and on WoWs gameplay and end game only proves that you're a bigot.
LOL did you just call me a Bigot of videogames? HAHAHAHAHA! Get a life? From Merriam-Webster
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudice
Hmm, seems to describe you perfectly. In between your WoW troll posts you should pick up a dictionary once in a while.
You're still wrong in your choice of words, despite your regurgitation of the definition.
Being a bigot implies conclusions based on ignorance, look up the word prejudice.
Disliking something because you have experience with it and think it is flawed, poorly made, or otherwise, isn't being a bigot, it's called having an opinion.
Comments
Its obviously a combination of veteran MMO players and people entirely new to the genre. I have been playing MMOs since Ultima Online and I played WoW for 4 years. Many of my friends were the same way. However, I also have many friends from WoW who had never before touched an MMO. So Blizzard took in many MMO vets and added millions to the genre at the same time...
As for where we got our MMO vet status, obviously from playing other MMOs. For me - UO, AC, EQ, DAOC, L2, SWG, etc. You might think MMO vets don't play WOW, but you would be wrong.
Of course most MMO vets have played WOW. However, I have a hard time believing the majority , of "vets" still play it. And even if every "vet" who ever played the game is still playing they would be a minority with the sub numbers blizz claims.
The entire paying market for mmo players prior to wows release was close to 7 million. Not including free to play, players who left the market, those who tried mmos prior to wow and just didn't enjoy them, etc. I think the online market was a whole lot bigger than most people realized. EQ had 550k in 2004, but a lot of people came and went over those 5 years. I will bet you everquest alone easily saw several million different players in its first few years.
Yet I don't see anyone claiming that the majority of wow players are mmo vets as you seem to think was stated.
However, looking at how popular online games have been in the eastern market for so long and the majority of wow players coming from the eastern market, I would not be surprised if that was true.
Wow the haters on this site truely seem to act like that makes WoW any less of the great game that it has been all along.
It still grows else where, and the only reason for the number lost was over a ban. just think of where other mmos would be if they just randomly got a chuck of their population banned.
I can only speak from my own perspective. I'm in a WoW guild of around ~200 members and only a handful of them entered the genre with WoW. A large proportion of them play multiple MMOs at once. My own experience started with Ultima Online; I currently play both WoW and EVE.
Niche gamers like to try and write off the WoW playing demographics as "consoleers" or simply "not MMO fans". I understand why; take WoW out of the equation and niche based games hold up much better (subscription wise) against the competition.
It's just wishful thinking.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Because the old school hard core MMO players are hardly monolithic. They can't agree on what a "decent" MMO might be. Some demand FFA playerlooting PvP, some demand a sandbox, some demand harsh death penalties.
What they can agree on is that WoW is too damn slick for its own good, because it expanded the market and let all these dweebs into it.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
One of those rare times that I will fully agree with metal.
It seems many MMO fans resent the massive WOW playerbase for rewarding what they see as lazy, derivative and "dumbed down" gameplay... among other things. They feel rewarding the WOW route and not even being bothered to check out the more innovative, broader or deeper MMO mechanics in some other games is stagnating the genre.
What they're missing is, as metal so incisively put, a big part of that playerbase does not even have a conception of what an MMO is. To them, WOW is just a game you play with other people, you do stuff that in the end makes you more powerful and allows you to wear new stuff and go to new places in the gameworld. That's it!
I've closely observed what happens when many people who got into the whole MMO thing with WOW try some other MMOs:
a) They mostly can't tell it apart from WOW, because, you know, again you get to slay monsters and do quests and get XP and level up and get new skills and run dungeons and... well, you get my drift.
b) Where they can tell them part, they don't like what the "new" games do that sets them apart!.. Because it throws off that second-nature thing they've developed with WOW.
Now, you may think this is a bit of a dilemma, but I figure it's just because the MMOs in themselves do not have enough breadth to keep luring new customers yet. Many WOW players were introduced not just to massively multiplayer online gaming, but also the RPG genre with WOW, so now any new MMO-RPG seems a bit samey and inconsequential to them, because that wonder and awe is just not there. These are the casual playerbase at large who keep looking for new and exciting gaming experiences and just another fantasy MMORPG with levels and quests probably won't suffice to keep them, however polished it is.
The genre has to diversify. Or it has to make new big products out of the invisible indie diversification that's always going on out there. It has to borrow from the small innovative ones and polish them to the point that it will present a new gameplay experience to the potential gamers (not just MMO players).
Or I agree the ex-WOW players will sooner play Farmville.
If thats the theory, then why doesnt Old School Hard core MMO players find a decent mmo to play? I see lots of them here complaing about how the MMO genre has gotten so bad, yet they too reject games like Darkfall and AoC which both tried different things.
Age of Conan didn't try anything different. It was just a bad game, that's why it was rejected. A bad game feeding false information from a shady company, with little to no content. The only content they had in game at launch was an instanced tutorial zone. The gameplay mechanics were almost copy and pasted from WoW. How is that anything different?
As for Darkfall, its more a niche of a niche. Not all oldschool gamers like FFA PvP. I do not entirely enjoy it, but I have to say, I've grown to like it. I play Darkfall because there really are no other MMOs like it out there, that combine oldschool MMO mentality (oldschool does NOT mean hardcore, it can translate to better more detailed design and a more realistic world than a super casual fun land with no penalties or accountability) with some new features not seen before in MMOs. I also played Vanguard, which was an oldschool style MMO, it sold like hotcakes and people were desperate to play it, but sadly, the game was largely unfinished. So the answer to your question is, there aren't tons of people playing this "hardcore" games because a really really high budget hardcore game has not been remotely attempted.
Darkfall Travelogues!
It could be argued that a decent portion of people playing WoW are not the type that would normally play an MMO. They play WoW because of the Warcraft franchise, and the Blizzard brand. It's so easy to get by soloing everything up until end game, that a lot of players are very solo-centric and anti-grouping. Ironically, because WoW is their first MMO, and they don't really have interest to seek out any other MMO, they tend not to realize just how poorly done, or lacking in features WoW can be, so they blindly put up with it, or leave MMOs altogether when they get bored with WoW.
Hey cant you solo in Sandbox games like Vanguard and Ruinscape?
It could be argued that a decent portion of people playing WoW are not the type that would normally play an MMO. They play WoW because of the Warcraft franchise, and the Blizzard brand. It's so easy to get by soloing everything up until end game, that a lot of players are very solo-centric and anti-grouping. Ironically, because WoW is their first MMO, and they don't really have interest to seek out any other MMO, they tend not to realize just how poorly done, or lacking in features WoW can be, so they blindly put up with it, or leave MMOs altogether when they get bored with WoW.
Hey cant you solo in Sandbox games like Vanguard and Ruinscape?
Have we really reached a day and age, where all other MMOs are so sad, shallow and linear, that RUNESCAPE, the butt of every internet joke before WoW came along, is considered sandbox? Oh kill me now...
Difference is, soloing is always an option, but grouping should always be encouraged.
Darkfall Travelogues!
It could be argued that a decent portion of people playing WoW are not the type that would normally play an MMO. They play WoW because of the Warcraft franchise, and the Blizzard brand. It's so easy to get by soloing everything up until end game, that a lot of players are very solo-centric and anti-grouping. Ironically, because WoW is their first MMO, and they don't really have interest to seek out any other MMO, they tend not to realize just how poorly done, or lacking in features WoW can be, so they blindly put up with it, or leave MMOs altogether when they get bored with WoW.
Hey cant you solo in Sandbox games like Vanguard and Ruinscape?
Have we really reached a day and age, where all other MMOs are so sad, shallow and linear, that RUNESCAPE, the butt of every internet joke before WoW came along, is considered sandbox? Oh kill me now...
Difference is, soloing is always an option, but grouping should always be encouraged.
Its still a Sandbox by people on this site's definiton. It has major freedom of gameplay. If thats not Sandbox, then wat does SB mean?
One of those rare times that I will fully agree with metal.
It seems many MMO fans resent the massive WOW playerbase for rewarding what they see as lazy, derivative and "dumbed down" gameplay... among other things. They feel rewarding the WOW route and not even being bothered to check out the more innovative, broader or deeper MMO mechanics in some other games is stagnating the genre.
What they're missing is, as metal so incisively put, a big part of that playerbase does not even have a conception of what an MMO is. To them, WOW is just a game you play with other people, you do stuff that in the end makes you more powerful and allows you to wear new stuff and go to new places in the gameworld. That's it!
I've closely observed what happens when many people who got into the whole MMO thing with WOW try some other MMOs:
a) They mostly can't tell it apart from WOW, because, you know, again you get to slay monsters and do quests and get XP and level up and get new skills and run dungeons and... well, you get my drift.
b) Where they can tell them part, they don't like what the "new" games do that sets them apart!.. Because it throws off that second-nature thing they've developed with WOW.
Now, you may think this is a bit of a dilemma, but I figure it's just because the MMOs in themselves do not have enough breadth to keep luring new customers yet. Many WOW players were introduced not just to massively multiplayer online gaming, but also the RPG genre with WOW, so now any new MMO-RPG seems a bit samey and inconsequential to them, because that wonder and awe is just not there. These are the casual playerbase at large who keep looking for new and exciting gaming experiences and just another fantasy MMORPG with levels and quests probably won't suffice to keep them, however polished it is.
The genre has to diversify. Or it has to make new big products out of the invisible indie diversification that's always going on out there. It has to borrow from the small innovative ones and polish them to the point that it will present a new gameplay experience to the potential gamers (not just MMO players).
Or I agree the ex-WOW players will sooner play Farmville.
If thats the theory, then why doesnt Old School Hard core MMO players find a decent mmo to play? I see lots of them here complaing about how the MMO genre has gotten so bad, yet they too reject games like Darkfall and AoC which both tried different things.
Age of Conan didn't try anything different. It was just a bad game, that's why it was rejected. A bad game feeding false information from a shady company, with little to no content. The only content they had in game at launch was an instanced tutorial zone. The gameplay mechanics were almost copy and pasted from WoW. How is that anything different?
As for Darkfall, its more a niche of a niche. Not all oldschool gamers like FFA PvP. I do not entirely enjoy it, but I have to say, I've grown to like it. I play Darkfall because there really are no other MMOs like it out there, that combine oldschool MMO mentality (oldschool does NOT mean hardcore, it can translate to better more detailed design and a more realistic world than a super casual fun land with no penalties or accountability) with some new features not seen before in MMOs. I also played Vanguard, which was an oldschool style MMO, it sold like hotcakes and people were desperate to play it, but sadly, the game was largely unfinished. So the answer to your question is, there aren't tons of people playing this "hardcore" games because a really really high budget hardcore game has not been remotely attempted.
But wasnt Old School MMO gamers use to the idea on Unfinished releases? So what made this any different for these games. Plus that have gotton much better.
So iam still confused about What Old School hard core MMO players truely Want.
It could be argued that a decent portion of people playing WoW are not the type that would normally play an MMO. They play WoW because of the Warcraft franchise, and the Blizzard brand. It's so easy to get by soloing everything up until end game, that a lot of players are very solo-centric and anti-grouping. Ironically, because WoW is their first MMO, and they don't really have interest to seek out any other MMO, they tend not to realize just how poorly done, or lacking in features WoW can be, so they blindly put up with it, or leave MMOs altogether when they get bored with WoW.
Hey cant you solo in Sandbox games like Vanguard and Ruinscape?
Have we really reached a day and age, where all other MMOs are so sad, shallow and linear, that RUNESCAPE, the butt of every internet joke before WoW came along, is considered sandbox? Oh kill me now...
Difference is, soloing is always an option, but grouping should always be encouraged.
Its still a Sandbox by people on this site's definiton. It has major freedom of gameplay. If thats not Sandbox, then wat does SB mean?
It's supposed to have freedom, but also have player-created content and overall play-driven gameplay, a lot of gameplay paths and choices, non-combat jobs, etc. Of course, since no AAA companies are willing to do something like this, they'll end up like Darkfall.
A "What if" topic about WoW of course degenerates into nothing more than a WoW bashing thread.
Congratulations to Metalhead and the other WoW trolls for continuing to ruin any and all threads about WoW.
Metalhead - your broad sweeping generalizations about the WoW playerbase and on WoWs gameplay and end game only proves that you're a bigot.
LOL did you just call me a Bigot of videogames?
HAHAHAHAHA! Get a life?
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
LOL did you just call me a Bigot of videogames?
HAHAHAHAHA! Get a life?
From Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: ?bi-g?t
Function: noun
Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot
Date: 1660
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudice
Hmm, seems to describe you perfectly.
In between your WoW troll posts you should pick up a dictionary once in a while.
LOL did you just call me a Bigot of videogames?
HAHAHAHAHA! Get a life?
From Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: ?bi-g?t
Function: noun
Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot
Date: 1660
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudice
Hmm, seems to describe you perfectly.
In between your WoW troll posts you should pick up a dictionary once in a while.
Can you look up idiot for me?
You pegged be a bigot due to a internet video game discussion board?
Ehhh Honestly I know its difficult to even defend yourself on here when you play WoW but seriously insulting people?
You need to back away from the PC and relax a bit. Your taking this shit a bit too seriously.
What else could you tell me about myself by reading my posts on a videogame forum? Pathetic.....
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
LOL did you just call me a Bigot of videogames?
HAHAHAHAHA! Get a life?
From Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: ?bi-g?t
Function: noun
Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot
Date: 1660
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudice
Hmm, seems to describe you perfectly.
In between your WoW troll posts you should pick up a dictionary once in a while.
You're still wrong in your choice of words, despite your regurgitation of the definition.
Being a bigot implies conclusions based on ignorance, look up the word prejudice.
Disliking something because you have experience with it and think it is flawed, poorly made, or otherwise, isn't being a bigot, it's called having an opinion.
I'm going to go with #2. Eventually the population will be looking for something else, and everyone has different tastes.
Just my opinion though.
World of Warcraft II, Gamon's Revenge
World of Warcraft III, Wrath of Gamon
World of Warcraft IV, Who the Hell is Gamon Anyway?
Now it's around 2037
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Option 1 and 3, More option 1.