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Why do most MMORPG combat systems have to be so boring and uninvolving?
Scottc
Member Posts: 680
Is there a reason for it? Common sense would say that the FPS style combat would be used more simply because it gives the user more control and more involvement. If you think about it, grind comes down to combat, you're being forced to fight tons of monsters, and it's boring because you're hardly doing anything at all except pressing the same key combinations at once. Surely it would be more exciting if you could dodge the monsters attacks by moving out of the way and hit them by aiming at them and moving yourself into the right place as you swing. With such a system you could have the monsters do more damage as well, since you have the capability now to negate that damage by moving out of the way.
I can't see how anyone could be opposed to such a system. I often see people come up with something like "It's an MMORPG not an FPS", which is just ridiculous. Imagine if Savage decided "It's an RTS it can't have FPS or RPG gameplay in it", or if Natural Selection decided "It's an FPS, there's no need to have an RTS style game in it", and where would DOTA be if Warcraft 3 is an RTS and the DOTA creators decided that it shouldn't be an RPG? We would have no Oblivion if Bethesda had decided that fine control over combat had no place in RPGs.
Any theories on the existence of the current system of "unlock abilities, spam abilities" dullfest? Personally I believe it was an attempt to replicate the combat of JRPGs where you control a party and have all kinds of ridiculous abilities. However that doesn't make much sense, since controlling a party is a bit more involving than controlling a single character.
There is no reason we can't have something better with more control. Asheron's Call let us dodge attacks by moving out of the way, even if it lacked the player aiming for himself, Age of Conan also had FPS style combat, and Darkfall Online had full FPS combat (although you really only got the best of it in PvP because the monster AI was so horrible).
Comments
The closest thing i have come to seeing something different was Hellgate London and it worked well in my opinion. However circle jerking mobs in a FPS styled form of combat over the current combat systems we see now is not that much more exciting.
You're probably talking about Darkfall, the mob circle jerking is a result of Darkfall's absolutely terrible AI. It would definitely be more exciting if there were some strategy behind defeating monsters instead of circling them in so they can't move and then beating them til they die while the guy who is getting hit holds down his block key. Consider an MMO with combat like that in Dark Messiah of Might & Magic. It would be quite good.
What you're talking about is the Action-RPG subgenre.
RPG combat is primarily based on the characters stats and abilities.
FPS combat is primarily based on the twitch skills of the player.
Action RPG combat is a hybrid of the two. Twitch skills affected by character stats and abilities.
I love Action RPGs; (Fallout 3, Oblivion/Morrowind, Mass Effect) and would be very happy to see MMOs launched that incorporated that sort of combat gameplay. I don't know how well those MMOs would be received by the fans of traditional MMORPGs (and RPGs such as BG, NWN, Dragon Age) though. I'm sure it'll happen eventually.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I can't speak for everyone, but a LOT of people I've talked to, grouped with, and/or guilded with in MMO's; don't like FPS because they're twitchy. These same people play MMO's because they want to relax. Twitch games are almost exercise for your reflexes. It was impossible for me to convince any of my friends in the past to try Planetside let alone a standard FPS.
Simply because you can't see opposition, doesn't mean there isn't any and the argument that "It's an MMORPG not an FPS." isn't ridiculous just because you don't like it.
I can't speak for everyone, but a LOT of people I've talked to, grouped with, and/or guilded with in MMO's; don't like FPS because they're twitchy. These same people play MMO's because they want to relax. Twitch games are almost exercise for your reflexes. It was impossible for me to convince any of my friends in the past to try Planetside let alone a standard FPS.
Simply because you can't see opposition, doesn't mean there isn't any and the argument that "It's an MMORPG not an FPS." isn't ridiculous just because you don't like it.
Gaming isn't for relaxation. By it's very interactive nature you are supposed to be involved in what's going on on the screen, not sitting back and watching it. If you want to go relax, go do something passive like watching a movie or TV, or listening to music. This is by far the thing that bugs me the most that people bring up as to why they play games. It makes about as much sense as drinking coffee to relax. IT'S FULL OF CAFFEINE!
If anyone ever needed to be told that gaming wasn't for them, it is by far these people.
Not everyone likes FPS combat. You can have involving and tactical combat without it being twitch-style FPS combat. One of the best combat systems I have seen was the one in Asherons Call for solo play, you could dodge certain attacks and use the terrain, but for group combat FF XI was awesome where a group could cooperate to create powerful combinations.
Even so I do agree that most MMORPGs combat are boring and uninspiring. WoW effect I guess...
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Asheron's Call had my favorite MMO combat. 8) The problem is that 99% of MMORPGs have combat that is easy and simplistic and boring as hell. I understand what you're saying. I'm more referring to the games where you have auto attack and a bunch of skills to spam which are pretty much everything but FoM, AC, AoC, Darkfall, and Mortal Online.
I, personally, hate FPS games. I avoid them like a plague and would avoid any mmo that took up that play style with no choice otherwise.
This topic was never about not interacting with the game, but the method that is used and your displeasure with how others do it.
As for gaming not being a form of relaxation; gaming is, typically, a hobby and people pursue hobbies as a form of relaxation. Who are you to dictate how other people spend their time???
Haha, wow. What a crazy statement.
I imagine if you ever walked into a gaming cafe you'd start shaking the first MMORPG player you saw, "GAMING ISN'T FOR YOU! STOP USING GAMES TO RELAX! DON'T YOU SEE IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!?!?"
Meanwhile, companies will continue to make games with relaxing pacing, and continue making good money by doing it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Haha, wow. What a crazy statement.
I imagine if you ever walked into a gaming cafe you'd start shaking the first MMORPG player you saw, "GAMING ISN'T FOR YOU! STOP USING GAMES TO RELAX! DON'T YOU SEE IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!?!?"
Meanwhile, companies will continue to make games with relaxing pacing, and continue making good money by doing it.
I think youre completely missing his point. Hes right, gaming isnt meant to be "relaxing", its meant to be fun and exciting and entertaining. If i wanted to just sit there and stare at a screen and not have to think and react at all and just have everything on auto-pilot... well i wouldnt bother playing games, id just do like he says and go watch tv or read a book or something. If the combat is extremely boring and repetitive (which the majority of games have become lately) i lose interest in the game extremely fast, whereas in FPS/twitch games (when done properly), the combat constantly offers something unique, it is pretty much entirely based on skill, reflexes, quick thinking, etc and you constantly find yourself coming up against other players who are improving their skill and give you a greater challenge and keep it fun, rather than basically just level and equipment being all that matters, with practically no skill involved in winning a battle.
Majority of MMO players don't play twitch games well, that's why they're playing MMO's rather than FPS. I came from Quake/Doom fps genre so going into AC1's twitch gameplay was easy for me. But I know many many many others that simply can't twitch play, and they have no interest in learning, trying, or bothering with it.
Now if you ask why they can't make a twitch MMO to cater to the niche fps-mmo playerbase, well the answer is that most fps players don't like the tedium of MMO's, with leveling, questing, and all that junk. While MMO enthusiasts don't like twitch fps gameplay. So you are really talking about a very small faction of the playerbase that actually do like and would play a fps-style MMO. If you look back at how many people played AC1 Darktide, you would know that is a very niche playerbase.
I'm with you, I would love to see another AC1. But it'll be hard to convince any companies to fork out millions of funds to build one for a small playerbase.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
I don't like FPS as well but the Action RPG or as I call them FPSRPG, I love them. I love FPS combat but since there is no character progression not really any customization of weapons and armor i get bored of shooting people really quick. But with games like Fallen Earth, Mass Effect, Fallout 3 and Morrowind and Oblivion, i am so hooked on those games. You get to interact with NPC's make choices that effect the game and other things just like any other RPG but with the sweetness of twitch based combat. That is good in my book its like having your cake and eating it too.
I may not be the best at FPS and get owned a lot when playing against people but I still have fun though. What is it that you don't like in FPS style combat and is it just the combat that wouldn't make you play a FPSRPG?
Do you actually like the combat systems in most current MMORPGs?
Haha, wow. What a crazy statement.
I imagine if you ever walked into a gaming cafe you'd start shaking the first MMORPG player you saw, "GAMING ISN'T FOR YOU! STOP USING GAMES TO RELAX! DON'T YOU SEE IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!?!?"
Meanwhile, companies will continue to make games with relaxing pacing, and continue making good money by doing it.
I think youre completely missing his point. Hes right, gaming isnt meant to be "relaxing", its meant to be fun and exciting and entertaining. If i wanted to just sit there and stare at a screen and not have to think and react at all and just have everything on auto-pilot... well i wouldnt bother playing games, id just do like he says and go watch tv or read a book or something. If the combat is extremely boring and repetitive (which the majority of games have become lately) i lose interest in the game extremely fast, whereas in FPS/twitch games (when done properly), the combat constantly offers something unique, it is pretty much entirely based on skill, reflexes, quick thinking, etc and you constantly find yourself coming up against other players who are improving their skill and give you a greater challenge and keep it fun, rather than basically just level and equipment being all that matters, with practically no skill involved in winning a battle.
Actually, it really depends on what genre of games you are talking about. Puzzle games and Adventure games for example are fun , entertaining and ...RELAXING...and yes, they are still called "games"
I played Asheron's Call with this Swedish woman who had 2 kids, and she had arthritis, she still managed to play it. What makes you think it's a small playerbase? Oblivion had millions of copies sold, not sure on how well Dark Messiah did. So it's certainly not niche, nobody has actually made an MMORPG with such gameplay before, but look at any Oblivion forum and you'll how badly people want an Oblivion style MMORPG.
Haha, wow. What a crazy statement.
I imagine if you ever walked into a gaming cafe you'd start shaking the first MMORPG player you saw, "GAMING ISN'T FOR YOU! STOP USING GAMES TO RELAX! DON'T YOU SEE IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!?!?"
Meanwhile, companies will continue to make games with relaxing pacing, and continue making good money by doing it.
I think youre completely missing his point. Hes right, gaming isnt meant to be "relaxing", its meant to be fun and exciting and entertaining. If i wanted to just sit there and stare at a screen and not have to think and react at all and just have everything on auto-pilot... well i wouldnt bother playing games, id just do like he says and go watch tv or read a book or something. If the combat is extremely boring and repetitive (which the majority of games have become lately) i lose interest in the game extremely fast, whereas in FPS/twitch games (when done properly), the combat constantly offers something unique, it is pretty much entirely based on skill, reflexes, quick thinking, etc and you constantly find yourself coming up against other players who are improving their skill and give you a greater challenge and keep it fun, rather than basically just level and equipment being all that matters, with practically no skill involved in winning a battle.
Actually, it really depends on what genre of games you are talking about. Puzzle games and Adventure games for example are fun , entertaining and ...RELAXING...and yes, they are still called "games"
I'm not sure you know what relaxing is. Puzzle games challenge your brain, they make you think. Relaxation is a state of mind where you're not doing much thinking.
Edit: Here, have a definition: abatement or relief from bodily or mental work, effort, application, etc.
Haha, wow. What a crazy statement.
I imagine if you ever walked into a gaming cafe you'd start shaking the first MMORPG player you saw, "GAMING ISN'T FOR YOU! STOP USING GAMES TO RELAX! DON'T YOU SEE IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!?!?"
Meanwhile, companies will continue to make games with relaxing pacing, and continue making good money by doing it.
I think youre completely missing his point. Hes right, gaming isnt meant to be "relaxing", its meant to be fun and exciting and entertaining. If i wanted to just sit there and stare at a screen and not have to think and react at all and just have everything on auto-pilot... well i wouldnt bother playing games, id just do like he says and go watch tv or read a book or something. If the combat is extremely boring and repetitive (which the majority of games have become lately) i lose interest in the game extremely fast, whereas in FPS/twitch games (when done properly), the combat constantly offers something unique, it is pretty much entirely based on skill, reflexes, quick thinking, etc and you constantly find yourself coming up against other players who are improving their skill and give you a greater challenge and keep it fun, rather than basically just level and equipment being all that matters, with practically no skill involved in winning a battle.
Actually, it really depends on what genre of games you are talking about. Puzzle games and Adventure games for example are fun , entertaining and ...RELAXING...and yes, they are still called "games"
Puzzle games aren't in the least relaxing to me at all. Ever play safecracker for the Wii? That game fries my frickin brain it gets my thinking so much. A game will either stimulate the mind or the body in some way. When I relax I just watch some TV or play some guitar.
I'm not sure you know what relaxing is. Puzzle games challenge your brain, they make you think. Relaxation is a state of mind where you're not doing much thinking.
Maybe you should look up "relaxation" in the dictionary.
From your definition ..notice the "OR" ?
I'm not sure you know what relaxing is. Puzzle games challenge your brain, they make you think. Relaxation is a state of mind where you're not doing much thinking.
Maybe you should look up "relaxation" in the dictionary.
From your definition ..notice the "OR" ?
re⋅lax⋅a⋅tion
/?rilæk?se???n/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ree-lak-sey-shuhn] Show IPA
Use relaxation in a Sentence
See web results for relaxation
See images of relaxation
–noun
1. abatement or relief from bodily or mental work, effort, application, etc.
2. an activity or recreation that provides such relief; diversion; entertainment.
3. a loosening or slackening.
4. diminution or remission of strictness or severity.
5. Mathematics. a numerical procedure for solving systems of equations by successive approximations of the variables.
6. Physics.
a. the return of a system undergoing dissipation to an initial state of equilibrium after being displaced from it.
b. the approach to steady-state operation of a system that has undergone dissipation and a change in state or has been subjected to an abrupt periodic disturbance.
The first thing basically says Relaxation is the relief from bodily or mental work. Even though gaming is entertainment it still can make you think or do physical stuff so its really not relaxing.
Yes, because "...fun and exciting and entertaining." couldn't possibly be considered "relaxing". One of the definitions of "Relax" is to relieve tension. Trust me, putting C4 on a jeep and watching a squad of of opponents go up in smoke, is RELAXING.
The "relaxing" argument is irrelevant to the OP's original post, but he decided to use that as ammunition in his argument under the assumption that achieving a relaxed state requires a passive activity and no physical involvement from the involved party, when this isn't the case.
The OP's point was that he felt that MMO's should move to a more FPS-style of combat. His issue is valid; his solution is quite possibly not. Not everyone likes FPS-style combat. While this may solve the issue for some, it will create the similiar issues for others.
Yes, because "...fun and exciting and entertaining." couldn't possibly be considered "relaxing". One of the definitions of "Relax" is to relieve tension. Trust me, putting C4 on a jeep and watching a squad of of opponents go up in smoke, is RELAXING.
I know exactly what you mean, every time I do this in Battlefield 2 my whole body goes limp and my brain turns off.
Kind of off topic but I was told that Dragon Age: Origins was like a fantasy style Mass Effect. After I installed it and found out it didn't have real-time aiming like Mass Effect, I was severely disapointed.
Yes, because "...fun and exciting and entertaining." couldn't possibly be considered "relaxing". One of the definitions of "Relax" is to relieve tension. Trust me, putting C4 on a jeep and watching a squad of of opponents go up in smoke, is RELAXING.
I know exactly what you mean, every time I do this in Battlefield 2 my whole body goes limp and my brain turns off.
I guess all coma patients are relaxing....
Likewise, definition two states: "an activity or recreation that provides such relief; diversion; entertainment."
As well, you can't possibly say that playing games is taxing or effort; FPS or not.