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Gamer's Bill of Rights

Someone in another thread brought this to my attention, so I checked it out, here:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=20027

It is a statement from developers who are sick and tired of signing on with publishers that don't seem to mind screwing over their customers.

Now, some publisher may say, "if you're a customer, the only right you have is to quit and go play something else, if you don't like the way we do business"  To that, I think a customer could respond, "well you have the right to invest millions into a game and then watch it stand empty and go down the toilet, along with your investment."

Putting these playground debating skills aside, however, I think the Bill of Rights brings up an important point:  namely; gamers are more likely to do business with a company that treats them with respect and provides them with an entertaining product.  I know that sounds very straightforward, but you wouldn't know it from watching how many publishers conduct themselves in the MMO genre. 

Problems include hyping features that never (no not ever) make it into the game, advertising things that publishers have already planned to axe, changing business models on the fly, pushing things live that have no hope of working correctly, telling people that things have been fixed when they clearly haven't, telling people that things are working or in the game somewhere when they clearly are not...and the list goes on.

If I decide to pay an MMO, I have certain benchmarks I look for before I become a paying customer:

-does the game company deliver what they advertised?

-do they inform customers well in advance of changes to the service?

-if people don't like the changes, can they opt out without losing any more cash?

-do they clearly communicate a business model, and then stick to that business model, or do they change things on the fly, adding layers of additional fees?

-do they respect player progress, or do they simply delete it any time someone in head office gets a "grand new vision" for the game?

-do they collect meaningful feedback from players, and make collaborative decisions (with player reps) about how to address it?

-do they provide good customer service when people are troubled by bugs that interfere with gameplay?

-if they screw up, do they simply admit it and begin to takes steps to make things right?

The answers to these questions tell me whether or not the company is likely to show me basic respect as a customer.  If there's no respect, there's no deal, it's that simple.  Only if I'm convinced that a company is going to deal with me in good faith do I start looking at how fun the product is.  If the respect isn't there, I find it takes all the fun out of it anyways, and replaces it with a lot of frustration.  That's not why I play video games, and that's not why I pay for an entertainment service.

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Comments

  • gandalesgandales Member UncommonPosts: 472

     Not to break the fantasy, but aren't Bill of Rights things that are law for everybody and have to be obey even by force. Benchmarks, standards or criteria might be better terms for what you are proposing. 

  • KhalathwyrKhalathwyr Member UncommonPosts: 3,133

    That's all fine and good, but as I brought up in that other thread there needs to be a Gamer's Union type entity established. Signing onto that BoR, which I didn't get that the average Joe gamer could do, while a positive step, isn't really fulfilling what the idea in that other thread was going for, at least it seems to me. The PC Alliance that was mentioned in that article also just doesn't work as it includes computer gaming companies in it's membership.

    I said grassroots in that other thread and by that I mean an organization started up by gamers, not including game making companies or retailers that sell games. That's the only Gamers Union concept that I think will carry the weight (mainly in numbers) needed to effect change.

    Adding to that, I'd like to see a similar effort of a unifying entity of non-gaming company owned or operated Gaming sites. Sites like this as members but sites that have a game making company or retail company as a parent company not included.

    Adding to that it would be good to see a yearly meeting with representation from those two group and representation from gaming companies to candidly talk out hot button issues and concerns.

    Game companies have their yearly meeting like GDC but those seem to me nothing but mutual admiration societies. FDR had fireside chats. I'd like to see the gaming industry have "Screensaver" chats and get some honest, frank discourse flowing.

    "Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

    Chavez y Chavez

  • SuvrocSuvroc Member Posts: 2,383

    And if a company could provide me with those assurances I'd happily pay extra for it - but sadly I shouldn't have to pay extra for what should be a contractual obligation IMO.

    We as consumers deserve better then some vague EULA that does nothing but protect the company and reliqueshes our rights to a decent product/service. Surely there must be someway to protect both sides right?

  • ElendilasXElendilasX Member Posts: 243
    Originally posted by ArcAngel3



    If I decide to pay an MMO, I have certain benchmarks I look for before I become a paying customer:
    -does the game company deliver what they advertised?
    -do they inform customers well in advance of changes to the service?
    -if people don't like the changes, can they opt out without losing any more cash?
    -do they clearly communicate a business model, and then stick to that business model, or do they change things on the fly, adding layers of additional fees?
    -do they respect player progress, or do they simply delete it any time someone in head office gets a "grand new vision" for the game?
    -do they collect meaningful feedback from players, and make collaborative decisions (with player reps) about how to address it?
    -do they provide good customer service when people are troubled by bugs that interfere with gameplay?
    -if they screw up, do they simply admit it and begin to takes steps to make things right?
     

     

    That (in red) is most important. All other issues usually rises from it. If product is finished and delivers what it promised other should be good too.

     

    Only one I cant agree is feedback. To some extension I say yes. Like if some class is overpowered 1000% or something like that. But most of time players asks for insane/impossible things.

     

    Another thing is to what players they attend. Many people in mmorpg.com is above casual players. And we run out of content faster, we go through things many times faster then casual players (my guess would be that casual makes up to 95% of gaming community, at least after WoW came to life) and it may look there is many bugs when in reality it is only few. We ran into much more problems as well...

     

    We really havent seen a game company deliver what it promises in years (maybe with few exceptions). And all those games are sort of dying. Look at WAR, AoC. If they would just havent released their games for 6-12 months and polished them, they could be great games now. But when you have to finish project, there isnt much time left to attend to customers. 

  • GyrusGyrus Member UncommonPosts: 2,413

    I believe that was me that brought that up.

    My interest, for quite some time now, is in consumer protection in particular in relation to computer games.

    Is it possible to have laws that are fair to both parties (Game Developers & Publishers and consumers)?

    I believe it is.

     

    In Australia we have the ACCC and the Trade Practices Act

    The Trade Practices Act implies the following statutory conditions into consumer contracts:

    * The goods must be of merchantable quality. That is, they must meet a basic level of quality and performance, taking into account their price and description. They also should be free from defects that were not obvious to you at the time of purchase.

    * The goods must be fit for their purpose. That is, they should do what they are supposed to do and be suitable for any purpose that you might have made known to the supplier.

    * The goods must match the description you were given or the sample you chose from. For example, any carpet laid must be the same quality and colour as the sample you chose from.

    * You must receive clear title to the goods, including goods bought at auction. In other words, you can expect to own the goods outright and any restriction on ownership should be explained to you beforehand.

    Note that this applies to all goods - including software and the rights are statutory so that they cannot be overridden by an EULA.

    However, this only applies to goods purchased within Australia - purchasing over the internet is a different issue.

    (If you buy your software from Australia over the internet this law applies to you)

     

     

    The U.S.A. has always been a problem here however as it is my understanding (please correct me if I am wrong?) that consumer laws in the U.S.A. do NOT apply to software.

    There is a body that now may be able to assist with this however:

    http://www.icpen.org/

    You will note that the USA is a member of this group

    Within that site there are links to consumer bodies in various countries - including (in some cases) provision for online lodgement of complaints.

    http://www.icpen.org/related.htm

     

    There is also this site:

    http://www.econsumer.gov/english/

    Again, provision for lodging complaints.  However, this does not (yet) guarantee a resolution as the power of this organisation is still restricted and local laws still apply.

    The public site allows consumers to lodge cross-border complaints, and to try to resolve their complaints through means other than formal legal action. Using the Consumer Sentinel network (a database of consumer complaint data and other investigative information operated by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission), the incoming complaints are shared with participating consumer protection law enforcers.

     

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  • InterestingInteresting Member UncommonPosts: 973

    Ive been posting about this for a while now.

     

    Every now and then I rant about it and in my past posting story there are atleast 2 or 3 pages worth of the subject only. It always felt like an herculean task that is not worth taking or heading.

    Yesterday I posted this on a thread in onrpg dot com:

     

    I wish we had consumerist laws appliable to virtual entertainment services such as MMOs, something that would protect the consumer/user (the player) from patches or nerfs that would aggravate the "pay to win" rate, to the point when we would have a law like this: "A game company cant reduce the abstract value of players time by selling anything on item mall that affects power beyond the original rate set in the release". Or something to that effect. If they did, players would be able to sue the company or something.

    Once people who make the laws and people with money start noticing how much money flows in this market and once people and communities gets older and actually matures I could see it happening...

    We have laws protecting labor and laws protecting people buying products or services. A MMORPG is also a service, albeit virtual, but virtual/imaterial property is still property, like copyright property.

     END OF QUOTE

    -------------------------------------

     

     

    One thing it needs to be done is examine the consumerist rights, specially those regarding services (for MMORPG specific bill of rights) instead of products (for single player boxed games) and addapt the laws, make an analog comparison.

    This would affect costumer support, billing support.

    It would make developers responsible for bugs and exploits, actually forcing them to fix them in a certain period of time or giving back peoples money. All those to protect the consumer, the players. Like in general consumerist law.

    It would prevent arbitrary bans and overall moderation of means of communications, such as in-game chat and forums.

    They wouldnt be able to close or delete threads, or ban players without solid information as in a due process of law behind it.

    If a player cheats, to actually ban the player, the game company would have to investigate and provide public proof of the illegal act for every player before actually taking act. Almost like an employer firing an employee for misconduct.

    Rules of Conduct and Terms of Service wouldnt be as arbitrary and one side, such as adesion contracts. its not a matter of "you dont like it, dont play it". Games companies cant do that. There has to be a standard, where games company dont go overboard with their own written rights and where players dont have no rights at all.

    As it stands nowadays, we cant complain, they dont provide costumer support, only emails with automatic responses. There has to exist a system in effect that players can withdraw from the "contract" without depending on company good will (wich doesnt exist).

    This is one thing.

    Another front line of the battle we will have to face in the future would be to change the idea that "any content inside the game and characters dont belong to the players". This have to go as well. Regarding Labor and Property Law (I dont know how its called in the anglo-saxonic law schools, since I come from italic-germanic law school) there is a principle about "if you spent time and effort on it as if it was yours and you administered it the way you wanted, it belongs to you".

    In other words, the virtual property (nothing more than a branch of imaterial property) belongs to the players.

    The side effects of this would be laws that prevented game companies from wiping servers, from nerfing classes or skills or anything that reduced indirectly the players time and effort spent on the game. Players would be able to trade accounts any items inside it and the company wouldnt be able to deny it or even ask for any kind of unecessary taxes over this.

    People dont need to ask permission for that, neither people need the companies aid or extra services in that regard, since everything can be done in-game with interpersonal trade or outside the game, by just exchanging the information about the account and password.

     

    Also, no more "eternal betas" to protect companies from their own mistakes. No more Item Malls and Cash Shops in Alphas and Betas. No more money laundry schemes such as Entropy and that other russian mmo. No more blatantly Pay to Win RMT games. There should be a minimum of ethics in the business, minimum standards that companies absolutelly couldnt go below.

    I understand most of the players are kids or simple minded individuals, ignorant of laws, and its universal principles. But there have been many historical moments where game companies screwed up and people got left without nothing.

    Im tired of waiting for communities to mature, for the players to get old and start asking themselfs why they allow such things.

     

    Edit. I think its why the players are so pissed of, complaining about everything, trolling and bitching and all the game have been "failing". Forums filled with negativity and counter propaganda. Also, all the hacking/cheating and piracy. All of those are a side effect of the "bigger picture".

  • CaleveiraCaleveira Member Posts: 556

    To add my perspective as a lawyer; All rights imply a corresponding set of obligations upon the claimant party. This is the reason animals cannot  be entitled to rights under law as, whatever other attributes they may posses, they cannot bind themselves to obey it. This may seem counterintuitive as we are mostly used to thinking about rights as emanating from charter or permission (as in old legal systems) but contemporary thought has fortunately stressed rights as intrinsic to an agent. Back on the example of animals, while they cannot be said to posses rights per se, the law does grant comunities the right of setting standards for their treatment, that is it recognizes people's right to spare them unnecessary suffering. Children on the other hand posses the right to education on the understanding exercise of said right confers the obligation of working hard in school, doing homework, etc.

    Yes, some rights apply regardless of the receiving party's capacity to enter an agreement, as say food rights for the very young, but in the overall scheme of law the principle applies regardless.

    The problem with gamer's rights is they would also bind players towards companies, which would be ridiculous... Regulatory schemes are usually not a solution. Don't get me wrong, i've always been for players organizing themselves. This issue is not only about consumer rights but consumer organizations as well. Large enough groups that could pledge to either support or boycott games, in meaningful measurable ways, could have enough leverage to effect change within the industry, and need not bring government to the table.

    Ofc given the current state of things it is unlikely any such effort will be made on the foreseeable future... 

    Just to make things clear...
    I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.

  • Death1942Death1942 Member UncommonPosts: 2,587
    Originally posted by gandales


     Not to break the fantasy, but aren't Bill of Rights things that are law for everybody and have to be obey even by force. Benchmarks, standards or criteria might be better terms for what you are proposing. 

     

    If i was to pick one i would say Industry standards enforced by an international gaming society that is supported by both Developers and Players (But must be neutral)

     

    I honestly can see such a society being set up in the future and as a soon to be developer...i welcome it

    MMO wish list:

    -Changeable worlds
    -Solid non level based game
    -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads

  • ArcAngel3ArcAngel3 Member Posts: 2,931
    Originally posted by Gyrus


    I believe that was me that brought that up.
    My interest, for quite some time now, is in consumer protection in particular in relation to computer games.
    Is it possible to have laws that are fair to both parties (Game Developers & Publishers and consumers)?
    I believe it is.
     
    In Australia we have the ACCC and the Trade Practices Act

    The Trade Practices Act implies the following statutory conditions into consumer contracts:
    * The goods must be of merchantable quality. That is, they must meet a basic level of quality and performance, taking into account their price and description. They also should be free from defects that were not obvious to you at the time of purchase.

    * The goods must be fit for their purpose. That is, they should do what they are supposed to do and be suitable for any purpose that you might have made known to the supplier.

    * The goods must match the description you were given or the sample you chose from. For example, any carpet laid must be the same quality and colour as the sample you chose from.

    * You must receive clear title to the goods, including goods bought at auction. In other words, you can expect to own the goods outright and any restriction on ownership should be explained to you beforehand.
    Note that this applies to all goods - including software and the rights are statutory so that they cannot be overridden by an EULA.
    However, this only applies to goods purchased within Australia - purchasing over the internet is a different issue.

    (If you buy your software from Australia over the internet this law applies to you)

     
     
    The U.S.A. has always been a problem here however as it is my understanding (please correct me if I am wrong?) that consumer laws in the U.S.A. do NOT apply to software.
    There is a body that now may be able to assist with this however:

    http://www.icpen.org/

    You will note that the USA is a member of this group
    Within that site there are links to consumer bodies in various countries - including (in some cases) provision for online lodgement of complaints.

    http://www.icpen.org/related.htm
     
    There is also this site:

    http://www.econsumer.gov/english/
    Again, provision for lodging complaints.  However, this does not (yet) guarantee a resolution as the power of this organisation is still restricted and local laws still apply.

    The public site allows consumers to lodge cross-border complaints, and to try to resolve their complaints through means other than formal legal action. Using the Consumer Sentinel network (a database of consumer complaint data and other investigative information operated by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission), the incoming complaints are shared with participating consumer protection law enforcers.
     

    Yes, it was your comment in another thread that got me thinking about this, thanks.  Thanks also for the links and additional information.

     

    I'm really enjoying the responses.  I think inevitably that the MMO industry will have its services more regulated, just like the regulation of other entertainment services such as cable television.  I don't see television regulation as intrusive; actually I'm thankful that the local cable company has some limits.  Imagine how much they'd screw us if they didn't lol.

    Meanwhile though, I hope that some publishers get the drift that some of the failing of MMOs over the past number of years has a lot to do with the piss-poor way customers get treated in this genre all too often.  They shouldn't need regulation to realize this, and start changing the way they do business.  If they want to survive, I think they need to change.

    Some gamers, a minority I think, may be so hooked on a virtual world and its community that they'll put up with almost anything.  Most of us though recognize that we can speak with our wallets.  I think games would do a lot better if publishers start listening.  Meanwhile, I'll continue to be selective, since I really have no desire to pay to experience frustration and/or loss.

  • hobo9766hobo9766 Member UncommonPosts: 457

    Its a great idea in principle but it will never come to pass.

  • ArcAngel3ArcAngel3 Member Posts: 2,931
    Originally posted by Death1942

    Originally posted by gandales


     Not to break the fantasy, but aren't Bill of Rights things that are law for everybody and have to be obey even by force. Benchmarks, standards or criteria might be better terms for what you are proposing. 

     

    If i was to pick one i would say Industry standards enforced by an international gaming society that is supported by both Developers and Players (But must be neutral)

     

    I honestly can see such a society being set up in the future and as a soon to be developer...i welcome it

    /applaud

     

    In my experience, it's the devs and players that get maneuvered into nasty situations by some business person way up the food-chain looking only at revenue charts and not given a rat's hind-end about the game, the genre, the developer's work, or the player's actual enjoyment of the service.

    I checked out some of the links provided earlier in the thread.  There's some good stuff in the works.  There's also an international working group looking at MMO and other online EULAs.  I agree that anything should be neutral.  I believe in win/win outcomes for publishers, devs and players.

    As I've highlighted, the status quo isn't just bad for developers and players, it's resulting (I believe) in the failure of games and lost investment capital.  I've often heard publishers point to their EULAs and defend their legal "right" to screw their customers.  My response to that is, "Just because nothing is stopping you from driving away your customers, doesn't mean it's a good idea guys."

    Also, truth be told, there are some legal parameters for MMO companies.  The trouble is that the rules change from country to country, state to state etc..  Part of a EULA may be enforceable in San Diego, for example, but not in Boston.  I think more consistency would help, and that people should be able to easily find out about their consumer rights when it comes to MMOs.  Right now, even just knowing your rights as a customer is complex.

    I think some publishers exploit the inconsistencies and ambiguities.  I also think they count on players being uninformed.  When I think I see a company like that, I avoid them and share my perceptions with other gamers.

  • GyrusGyrus Member UncommonPosts: 2,413
    Originally posted by Interesting

    ...
    This would affect costumer support, billing support.
    It would make developers responsible for bugs and exploits, actually forcing them to fix them in a certain period of time or giving back peoples money. All those to protect the consumer, the players. Like in general consumerist law.
    This is what the Australian Law does.  If you get a game that does not work (not of merchantable quality, not fit for their purpose or that does not match the description you were given) you can ask for your money back.
    It would prevent arbitrary bans and overall moderation of means of communications, such as in-game chat and forums.
    They wouldnt be able to close or delete threads, or ban players without solid information as in a due process of law behind it.
    If a player cheats, to actually ban the player, the game company would have to investigate and provide public proof of the illegal act for every player before actually taking act. Almost like an employer firing an employee for misconduct.
    Rules of Conduct and Terms of Service wouldnt be as arbitrary and one side, such as adesion contracts. its not a matter of "you dont like it, dont play it". Games companies cant do that. There has to be a standard, where games company dont go overboard with their own written rights and where players dont have no rights at all.
    As it stands nowadays, we cant complain, they dont provide costumer support, only emails with automatic responses. There has to exist a system in effect that players can withdraw from the "contract" without depending on company good will (wich doesnt exist).
    I have no objection to moderation - chat and forums are usually supplementary services. But I do agree about the arbitrary bans.

    In the Erik Estavillo vs Sony case it was unfortunate that Estavillo chose to bark up the wrong tree of 'free speech' and '1st Ammendment Rights' rather than simply claim a refund of money paid and claim that a network wide ban for poor behaviour in one game was inappropriate.


    If companies wish to ban players for any reason then they should be restricted to keep those bans to services directly related to the one the alledged 'offense' occurred and they should be required to refund any and all prepaid funds on request.


    And yes, there should be an avenue of appeal.  Perhaps even to an external body.

     
    ...

     

     

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  • nAAtimusnAAtimus Member Posts: 342

    So I guess I am in the minority in that I don't feel that I need a set of rights for gaming.

    I'm not here to complete my forum PVP dailies.

  • Are there any MMOs that live up to those criteria?

  • tro44_1tro44_1 Member Posts: 1,819
    Originally posted by ElendilasX

    Originally posted by ArcAngel3



    If I decide to pay an MMO, I have certain benchmarks I look for before I become a paying customer:
    -does the game company deliver what they advertised?
    -do they inform customers well in advance of changes to the service?
    -if people don't like the changes, can they opt out without losing any more cash?
    -do they clearly communicate a business model, and then stick to that business model, or do they change things on the fly, adding layers of additional fees?
    -do they respect player progress, or do they simply delete it any time someone in head office gets a "grand new vision" for the game?
    -do they collect meaningful feedback from players, and make collaborative decisions (with player reps) about how to address it?
    -do they provide good customer service when people are troubled by bugs that interfere with gameplay?
    -if they screw up, do they simply admit it and begin to takes steps to make things right?
     

     

    That (in red) is most important. All other issues usually rises from it. If product is finished and delivers what it promised other should be good too.

     

    Only one I cant agree is feedback. To some extension I say yes. Like if some class is overpowered 1000% or something like that. But most of time players asks for insane/impossible things.

     

    Another thing is to what players they attend. Many people in mmorpg.com is above casual players. And we run out of content faster, we go through things many times faster then casual players (my guess would be that casual makes up to 95% of gaming community, at least after WoW came to life) and it may look there is many bugs when in reality it is only few. We ran into much more problems as well...

     

    We really havent seen a game company deliver what it promises in years (maybe with few exceptions). And all those games are sort of dying. Look at WAR, AoC. If they would just havent released their games for 6-12 months and polished them, they could be great games now. But when you have to finish project, there isnt much time left to attend to customers. 



     

    This still need a sticky

  • ReklawReklaw Member UncommonPosts: 6,495

    I like to place a few comments on the GBoR.

    1) Gamers shall have the right to return games that don’t work with their computers for a full refund.

    How will this work?, do we as consumers take our systems to the gamestory, or somehow show our specs in order to get a refund, or do we just buy blind without looking for gamespecs then notice our system is simply no good enough after trying to install/play the game and then have the shop take our game back and give a refund?

    2) Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.

    Yeah what I am about to say sounds easy, but it really is, see a game not finished don't play, and if a game is really not worth playing then more will follow, if still people are playing it means they might have different things they look for in a game, some people want lvl 1 content all the way up to cap lvl at day one, for some cap lvl is least important thing in a MMORPG and by the time they get there, there is more then enough content. Take a look at FE, already there are people at lvl cap, and what do we see them talk about, they are bored, LOL no wonder if they ignored allot of content.



    3) Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game’s release.

    What might be meaning full for some people, might not be meaningfull to others, of all the MMORPG's I ever played or tested there where always update's that meant something to me and some that I didn't really care for. So who is going to deceide what is meaningfull.



    4) Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.

    Out of the games I played several had that options, with many others games I played it was/is nothing I worried about.



    5) Gamers shall have the right to expect that the minimum requirements for a game will mean that the game will play adequately on that computer.

    Ever since I'm into pc gaming considered medium specs to be the lowest specs to atleast enjoy the game given, I feel gamers should be more aware of what gametype/genre they are getting into aswell knowing what to expect from their gamesystems. Do people really want to play a game on the lowest settings?



    6) Gamers shall have the right to expect that games won’t install hidden drivers or other potentially harmful software without their consent.

    This one is just plain obvious, even with consent who would give a okay to install hidden drivers or other potentially harmfull software?, if a gamecompany does this then that company is already breaking the law and we don't need this GBoR for that.



    7) Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest versions of the games they own at any time.

    This way we can be sure that games in the future will cost even more, perhaps even pay higher sub-fee or in current cases see more and more RMT involved MMORPG's, there are just to many updates required for MMORPG, this would mean that every time there is a update/patch the whole game needs to be send again to all the digital distrubutors. It's often just the updating that is a minor anyonce, but with most games you are able to re-download them, just the updating is a longer procces often then downloading/installing the game. I feel it could be done let's say 2 times a year to re-download the latest versions incl. update/patches, but expecting this to happen after each release of update/patch would just be to costy and will end up coming out of our pockets.



    8) Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.

     

    This one I found very funny, never witnessed this ever, other then seeing comments on forums from people.

    9) Gamers shall have the right to demand that a single-player game not force them to be connected to the Internet every time they wish to play.

    This one I can sort of agree with, Sort of because I feel this should be a options for those who are intrested in like sharing their ingame stats, I do not feel I need to connect with the internet just to be able to run the game in singleplayer mod, so finaly one rule I can personaly agree with.



    10) Gamers shall have the right that games which are installed to the hard drive shall not require a CD/DVD to remain in the drive to play.



    Ah....another one I can agree on.

    Now if you don't mind Arc. I like to comment on your benchmark:

     -does the game company deliver what they advertised?

    What company does? really...what company regardless in what industry really does, obvious there needs to be a thin line in what is advertized and actualy delivered, overall it's a common issue to be found in any industry, also keep in mind that often expectations of people exceeds that of what is advertised. To me it's more like  "Am I enjoying what the developers have made me play", if I play or focus on things that are advertised not only in games but also in real life I would often be very dissappointed, that's why I rather experiance something myself then to read about something that I might not encounter, does make me less disappointed with a game but if I get disappointed it's it is because of what I encoutner ingame and not what might be promised or/and missing.

    -do they inform customers well in advance of changes to the service?

    There should be some ingame system that states such changes, far to many people do not visit official forums or regular forums to keep updated on gamechanges, so in a way I agree with you on this.

    -if people don't like the changes, can they opt out without losing any more cash?

    Not sure I see the problem here, I could see the problem for those  that for some reason buy life-time or 1/2 or full year subs, for myself I know MMORPG's can change over time, sometimes alittle sometimes much, sometimes for the good sometimes not for the better, that is why I never sub more then a month. And would suggest for others to do the same, that way less risk in "losing" some cash.

    -do they clearly communicate a business model, and then stick to that business model, or do they change things on the fly, adding layers of additional fees?

    In a way we already are communicating with developers by the way we play, they see the data and will respond to it, where we just play and might be suprised about certain changes. Do they need to communicate their business model more clear....Yes they have too.

    -do they respect player progress, or do they simply delete it any time someone in head office gets a "grand new vision" for the game?

    Again somethingreally hard to answer as I do not have harddate coming out of these games, other then player reactions or own experiance. Let's say 5% of a game is enjoying some sort of feature and they feel it's the best thing ever in the game, yet 95% doesn't like those feature's at all, should the company honour those 5% and let those 95% of players endure something they dislike? What could be seen as some sort of "Grand Vision" made up by some headoffice in is percieved that way by by players, could aswell be hard data we players never get to see.

    -do they collect meaningful feedback from players, and make collaborative decisions (with player reps) about how to address it?

    Feedback only gives you a very tiny inside of a game as complex as a MMORPG, hard data comming from it's players ingame in form of code gives allot more "feedback" than what people can state on forums. It sure helps that we speak in a constructive manner, unfortunaly this constructive manner does not happen very often.

    -do they provide good customer service when people are troubled by bugs that interfere with gameplay?

    I never have been disappointed with customer service, I take into account that I might not be the only one trying to contact them, these games are not played by just a dozen people, we are talking about thousands and thousands of people who al might have a question or issue to report. I sometimes just laugh about some help I got back in SWG beta, where you could explain everything you tried to do to resolve a issue, making sure you told everything to the CSR, yet getting a response to try this or that, yet you already explained you did try those things already, sometimes alittle anoying, but more laugheble then it really was a issue. As in the end my issue('s) where fixed either by update/patch or with the help of a CSR. Other then that when I needed help I got it.

    -if they screw up, do they simply admit it and begin to takes steps to make things right?

     

    I have seen plenty of company's that have admitted that they "strewed up" but then what can be the steps to make it right? This is so personal and totally depends on the players style/wishes/wants and needs. What might be right for you might not be right for someone else.

    I personaly could not play games if I would use some sort of benchmark I see here. Perhaps I just see games as a form of entertainment where I have the choice to either get involved playing them or simply choose not to play them. All these things outside of games do intrest me but my benchmark for playing games consists mostly about if the game is FUN!, after all it's more a loss to the game company if they lose another sub. As I always will quite a game if it's not fun to me. Don't get me wrong as there have to be rules, but I feel there is a long road ahead of us if we indeed want to make new rules or have something like that Gamers Bill of Rights as I personaly feel those 10 commentments are not really thought thru.

  • GyrusGyrus Member UncommonPosts: 2,413
    Originally posted by nAAtimus


    So I guess I am in the minority in that I don't feel that I need a set of rights for gaming.

    I...I...I...I...

    Many years ago, long before any of us were even born, men (and women) discussed what values they held dear.

    They discussed what type of world they wanted their descendants to live in.  They thought of issues that didn't affect them at the time in many cases - but they thought of more people than just themselves.

    It's thanks to those people, establishing those standards, that we enjoy the lives we do.

     

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  • DinidainDinidain Member UncommonPosts: 48

    Most important thing I noticed from the article that link went to was... that it was an article from August 2008!

     

    the reference to the "upcoming title Demigod" was what made me check the date because I know Demigod has been out for awhile.

    Interesting concept, but over 15 months later is still just that...Concept

    Anyone and everyone can feel free to disagree with any or all of my opinions and observations whenever I rarely post them; it doesn't bother me one bit. Just know that I'll likely never respond to YOUR disagreement or personal attack, because I know better than to argue with idiots, especially upon internet Forums. See what I did there? -- Dinidain

  • ScalebaneScalebane Member UncommonPosts: 1,883

     That bill of rights sounds nice and all but how do we protect the companies from the rampant piracy of games?

    A lot of measures we do not like are because of these people, they screw things up for the rest of us, yeah i know they will run in here making excuses as to why they do it, but its just that , an excuse.

    A lot of these games take hundreds of millions to make anymore, a company has to come up with different ways to make that money back and get a nice profit...hopefully a really nice profit so they can come up with another great tittle.  Yeah i know there are companies now that make crap games and expect you to pay for them but that's what reviews are for and trials.  

    I would say if there was a bill of rights for consumers that part of that bill would enforce companies having to put out a playable demo before the game ships so people can decide if the game is worth the money or not.

    The piracy on Games is hurting the industry though and the consumers, this isn't like the music industry where they make most of their money from concerts, games only have box sales unless its an MMO, i think that's why we see so many companies making mmo's.   People really can't just steal an MMO and play, at least not that i know of.

    I remember back in the day we didn't have to worry about cd's having to be in the drive still or connecting to the internet to verify the game isn't stolen or other programs, because of people thinking its okay to still another's hard work that they spent millions on we now have all this crap we gotta go through just to play a game.  I think the prices for Games are pretty fair, as a matter of fact i think PC game prices should fall in line with Console game prices.

     

    image

    "The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
    - Lewis Thomas

  • ScalebaneScalebane Member UncommonPosts: 1,883
    Originally posted by Dinidain


    Most important thing I noticed from the article that link went to was... that it was an article from August 2008!
     
    the reference to the "upcoming title Demigod" was what made me check the date because I know Demigod has been out for awhile.
    Interesting concept, but over 15 months later is still just that...Concept

    Yeah its old, i've seen bill or rights topics pop up every so often, but i personally feel its unnecessary.  I think consumers need to be more responsible for researching a produce they want to buy.  If they blindly take a risk on buying something (impluse buying) then that is their fault.  

    Some of the things on that list i can see being abused really bad by consumers.  

     

    image

    "The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
    - Lewis Thomas

  • RagnavenRagnaven Member Posts: 483

    The problem is as old as the first mmo's, the question of what does the player own and what rights do they have. Sadly most companies opt to go with "they own nothing, therefore have no rights." Which is the strangest buisness model and one I have yet to understand why no one has legislated against. The simple problem is that mmo's are the only product that I know of, other than mogwai, that if you miss use it the seller has the right to take it away from you. Unlike mogwai however, if you feed an mmo after midnight you just sleep late, it doesn't turn into a little green monster.

    Now pretty much anything on the planet you own can be taken from you if you miss use it in a bad way, but it is taken from you by a third party. IE the feds, the police, the dea, the atf, etc.. it is not taken back by the seller if the product have been payed for in full. So the big question is exactly why the hell is it legal for them to arbitrarily decide your baned, suspended, or anything else without a third legal party being involved? Better question still, any other product on the planet that is sold, if it proves to have a major flaw in it after purchuse can be returned, and the purchesor reinbursed.

    I've never been banned or suspended before in my gaming lifetime, I never done anything to get done that way if I had however I'd like a third party that would look at the evidence and hear my case, which is the real fun question of it all is why do we let mmo companies run without any real oversite? They advertise and don't deliver, stating that things change even if they rode that bit of advertised fluff to launch almost saying it would be there to bost presells. Which is close to but blissfully, for the mmo companies, not false advertising.

    They release untested software that can harm the game and at rare times your computer, if you car can harm you the company is forced to make a recall. They can cancel service at any time on their end, not accounting if you have months of play time left, usually returning that time in the form of a time card of gift cert not in the form of payment as tendered.

    Yes these are extreme examples, I want them to be extreme examples, I want someone to ask why is there not more oversite on the mmo companies. Why is there not more of a standards and practices commison on them, why do we not demand they be accountable for actions that invalidate time played without reinbursing us?

  • I'm afraid that it's likely only us as more extreme gamers would care about anything such as a gamer's bill of rights.  I imagine the very vast majority of regular joe gamers don't really have any problem with the industry.  Most people aren't mmo gamers after all.  Consider EA.  Most of us as mmo gamers (and even some fpsers) probably have some negative thoughts about EA for a variety of reasons.  However, the vast majority of their customer base are console gamers who pick up their yearly copy of Madden football (or whatever sport) and would wonder just what in the heck we're complaining about.

     

    In the end, we're pretty small potatoes to these developers.

  • GyrusGyrus Member UncommonPosts: 2,413
    Originally posted by Scalebane


     That bill of rights sounds nice and all but how do we protect the companies from the rampant piracy of games?
    A lot of measures we do not like are because of these people, they screw things up for the rest of us, yeah i know they will run in here making excuses as to why they do it, but its just that , an excuse.
    A lot of these games take hundreds of millions to make anymore, a company has to come up with different ways to make that money back and get a nice profit...hopefully a really nice profit so they can come up with another great tittle.  Yeah i know there are companies now that make crap games and expect you to pay for them but that's what reviews are for and trials.  
    I would say if there was a bill of rights for consumers that part of that bill would enforce companies having to put out a playable demo before the game ships so people can decide if the game is worth the money or not.
    ...
     

    I won't try to justify Piracy - in fact I am 100% against piracy but:

    ...

    6) Gamers shall have the right to expect that games won’t install hidden drivers or other potentially harmful software without their consent.

    ...

    8) Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.

    Let's be honest - DRMs?  do they work?

    If you think so look at Spore.  I never played it - but DRM included it was pirated more than it sold?

     

    As for reviews and trials - I would like to agree unfortunately 'professional reviewers' seem to have trouble with math?

    You see the median from 0-10 is 5... NOT 7 or 8 which they seem to regard as 'average'.  So fro the point of view of the consumer - how are you supposed to make an informed judgment?

    Giving consumers 'rights' is not the end of the world.  Strange as it may sound - other industries have done it.



     

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  • TorikTorik Member UncommonPosts: 2,342
    Originally posted by Ragnaven


    The problem is as old as the first mmo's, the question of what does the player own and what rights do they have. Sadly most companies opt to go with "they own nothing, therefore have no rights." Which is the strangest buisness model and one I have yet to understand why no one has legislated against. The simple problem is that mmo's are the only product that I know of, other than mogwai, that if you miss use it the seller has the right to take it away from you. Unlike mogwai however, if you feed an mmo after midnight you just sleep late, it doesn't turn into a little green monster.
    Now pretty much anything on the planet you own can be taken from you if you miss use it in a bad way, but it is taken from you by a third party. IE the feds, the police, the dea, the atf, etc.. it is not taken back by the seller if the product have been payed for in full. So the big question is exactly why the hell is it legal for them to arbitrarily decide your baned, suspended, or anything else without a third legal party being involved? Better question still, any other product on the planet that is sold, if it proves to have a major flaw in it after purchuse can be returned, and the purchesor reinbursed.
    I've never been banned or suspended before in my gaming lifetime, I never done anything to get done that way if I had however I'd like a third party that would look at the evidence and hear my case, which is the real fun question of it all is why do we let mmo companies run without any real oversite? They advertise and don't deliver, stating that things change even if they rode that bit of advertised fluff to launch almost saying it would be there to bost presells. Which is close to but blissfully, for the mmo companies, not false advertising.
    They release untested software that can harm the game and at rare times your computer, if you car can harm you the company is forced to make a recall. They can cancel service at any time on their end, not accounting if you have months of play time left, usually returning that time in the form of a time card of gift cert not in the form of payment as tendered.
    Yes these are extreme examples, I want them to be extreme examples, I want someone to ask why is there not more oversite on the mmo companies. Why is there not more of a standards and practices commison on them, why do we not demand they be accountable for actions that invalidate time played without reinbursing us?

    So you want some sort of MMO Police to supervise MMOs and a MMO Court to have final say on who gets banned?

    I fully believe that the industry has to stop with the rampant false advertising and MMO companies should be refunding unused subscription money when they ban an account but beyond that I see nothing wrong the companies are doing.  They should have the right to refuse to do business with anyone they find disruptive to their business.  It is a fundamental right.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675

    Unfortunately, beyond the aspects of a company delivering what it's promised to deliver in their advertising (ie. false advertising), gamers have few rights, nor do they deserve many.  A lot of gamers don't recognize what it is they are paying for.  They're not paying for progression, they're not paying for their character, they're paying for access.  That's it.  A monthly fee is all about time.  You pay your $15 and you get to play the game for a month.  If you progress at all during that month is irrelevant, if you get gear or gold or whatever during that month is irrelevant.  The company doesn't *OWE* you anything but access to the game during that time that you've paid for.  If you don't like the game, don't play it.  They don't owe you anything more than access to the game for which you've paid.

    Now granted, a good company will go farther and actually care if your experience is good, mostly to ensure that you keep coming back and paying a monthly fee, but the idea that somehow you have any "rights" outside of laws that already exist to deal with fraud, is rather absurd.  It's like saying Hollywood *OWES* you good movies. 

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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