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Only 20 Levels?!?!

PhelimReaghPhelimReagh Member UncommonPosts: 680

Unlike other popular MMOs where you level up to 60, 80 or 100, D&D only allows you 20 levels.

 

Only 20 levels? Well that must severely limit gameplay!

 

But it doesn't. Players get new abilities ("Feats") at little sub-levels along the way as you progress from one level to the next. So while you're not technically "leveling up" and getting more HP & Mana, you're getting some benefits as you play.

 

One huge, unexpected boon for having only 20 levels is the massive number of players with whom you can group for adventures.

 

Going up a level takes many, many hours. In the time it took me to get to level 3 in one of the faster leveling classes (Cleric), I probably would have been 15-20, if not higher, in another MMO. So while in that other MMO I would have a small number of players to group with, in DDO I can realistically run dungeons with players level 2-4. And there are massive amounts of players at those levels who are interested in running the same content as I am. It's the equivalent of being able to group with players from level 5 to 20 in another MMO, and the content we're running is desirable for all of us.

 

This is a pretty great feature I hadn't expected. I thought only 20 levels meant a limited experience. The reality, however, is quite different. It means a much larger pool of people to play with as you work your way through dungeons.

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Comments

  • LiddokunLiddokun Member UncommonPosts: 1,665

    The reason why they limit the actual levels to 20 is that in the D&D rules, 20 is the normal maximum progression level for mortal adventurer before they become epic characters (basically a demi-god). DDO at the moment doesn't have the capability to handle an epic character yet. Epic characters are a beast of their own and they are so powerful not much can hurt them or pose a threat  so in order for the game to be fun and challenging you had to design even more powerful enemies (such as powerful extraplanar beings, super monsters (like the tarrasque),elder dragons, other demi-gods, and demon lords as their enemies). Also playing an epic character is a bit different from playing a normal adventurer in fact they even had a whole book for rules in dealing with epic characters. Each rank is DDO is a level up basically you have 100 ranks to achieve level 20 and that would take at least a couple of months of playing.

  • RokurgeptaRokurgepta Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 2,136
    Originally posted by PhelimReagh


    Unlike other popular MMOs where you level up to 60, 80 or 100, D&D only allows you 20 levels.
     
    Only 20 levels? Well that must severely limit gameplay!
     
    But it doesn't. Players get new abilities ("Feats") at little sub-levels along the way as you progress from one level to the next. So while you're not technically "leveling up" and getting more HP & Mana, you're getting some benefits as you play.
     
    One huge, unexpected boon for having only 20 levels is the massive number of players with whom you can group for adventures.
     
    Going up a level takes many, many hours. In the time it took me to get to level 3 in one of the faster leveling classes (Cleric), I probably would have been 15-20, if not higher, in another MMO. So while in that other MMO I would have a small number of players to group with, in DDO I can realistically run dungeons with players level 2-4. And there are massive amounts of players at those levels who are interested in running the same content as I am. It's the equivalent of being able to group with players from level 5 to 20 in another MMO, and the content we're running is desirable for all of us.
     
    This is a pretty great feature I hadn't expected. I thought only 20 levels meant a limited experience. The reality, however, is quite different. It means a much larger pool of people to play with as you work your way through dungeons.

    You get to use actions points on enhancements between levels not feats. Feats are what you pick at certain level ups. As you get higher in levels those enhancements cost mose, so while at lower levels they feel like mini level ups that stops once those enhancements cost 3 APs as now you will go nearly an entire level, and some cost more than that, before you can pick a new enhancement.

     

     

    Takes many many hours to level? Maybe past 16 you could say that, but the first 8 levels in DDO really do not take much time. I am sure for new players it takes more but DDO does not take that long to get past the lower levels.

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Member RarePosts: 9,637

    actually the game has 100 levels....

    every level has 5 ranks, and at every rank you get some minor abbility....  At the main levels you get major things. so all in all there are 100 ranks.

     

     

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • RokurgeptaRokurgepta Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 2,136
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus


    actually the game has 100 levels....
    every level has 5 ranks, and at every rank you get some minor abbility....  At the main levels you get major things. so all in all there are 100 ranks.
     
     



     

    No you do not. AT every rank you get an action point and the first few levels most of those can get you something, but after the first few levels you have to start saving them as you have enhancements that will cost you 6 APs that takes a level and a half to improve one enhancement. Not to say they are not worth the invesment, but anyone saying you get minor abilities at every rank is simply wrong, or too low level to see the action point costs that they will incur at even mid levels.

     

    DDO has 20 levels. It does not have 100 levels. I would never compare ranks to levels in other games as the usefulness of individual ranks starts to change by level 6 or so.

  • PhelimReaghPhelimReagh Member UncommonPosts: 680
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus


    actually the game has 100 levels....
    every level has 5 ranks, and at every rank you get some minor abbility....  At the main levels you get major things. so all in all there are 100 ranks.
     
     

     

    The game has 20 levels, as far as grouping is concerned. Which is really the point I was trying to make. The game's design, intended or not, has allowed them a deeper pool of folk whom a player can group with.

     

    What's more, you're not necessarily constrained by the Tank/DPS/Healer dynamic, either, I've found. It's far more tactical.

  • RokurgeptaRokurgepta Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 2,136
    Originally posted by PhelimReagh

    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus


    actually the game has 100 levels....
    every level has 5 ranks, and at every rank you get some minor abbility....  At the main levels you get major things. so all in all there are 100 ranks.
     
     

     

    The game has 20 levels, as far as grouping is concerned. Which is really the point I was trying to make. The game's design, intended or not, has allowed them a deeper pool of folk whom a player can group with.

     

    What's more, you're not necessarily constrained by the Tank/DPS/Healer dynamic, either, I've found. It's far more tactical.

    It is based of of PnP D&D and the 20 level system they use.

     

  • PhelimReaghPhelimReagh Member UncommonPosts: 680
    Originally posted by Rokurgepta

    Originally posted by PhelimReagh

    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus


    actually the game has 100 levels....
    every level has 5 ranks, and at every rank you get some minor abbility....  At the main levels you get major things. so all in all there are 100 ranks.
     
     

     

    The game has 20 levels, as far as grouping is concerned. Which is really the point I was trying to make. The game's design, intended or not, has allowed them a deeper pool of folk whom a player can group with.

     

    What's more, you're not necessarily constrained by the Tank/DPS/Healer dynamic, either, I've found. It's far more tactical.

    It is based of of PnP D&D and the 20 level system they use.

     

    Yes I know. I've plaed D&D since the early 80s. Still have my Basic red box!

  • PapadamPapadam Member Posts: 2,102

    Yea Ive always wonder why all MMOs have so many levels when it just splits up the player base. I like the leveling pace in DDO even thou it slows down alot after lvl 10 (also because there are less people over 10 on Cannith so not as easy to find good groups).

    What I also like is that you get XP from raids!

    If WoW = The Beatles
    and WAR = Led Zeppelin
    Then LotrO = Pink Floyd

  • Death1942Death1942 Member UncommonPosts: 2,587

    Its based on the Pen and paper system and i have yet to reach level 10 in that system (been playing for 2 years now, we had roughly 3 campaigns in that time) so 20 is more than enough to keep someone occupied.

     

    tbh i like this system far more than having 50+ levels but most people want to feel like they have achieved something every time they play and levels are the easiest way for the developer to reward them.

    MMO wish list:

    -Changeable worlds
    -Solid non level based game
    -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads

  • RokurgeptaRokurgepta Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 2,136
    Originally posted by Death1942


    Its based on the Pen and paper system and i have yet to reach level 10 in that system (been playing for 2 years now, we had roughly 3 campaigns in that time) so 20 is more than enough to keep someone occupied.
     
    tbh i like this system far more than having 50+ levels but most people want to feel like they have achieved something every time they play and levels are the easiest way for the developer to reward them.



     

    In DDO it is not the levels that keep you occupied. Once you hit 20 lots of content is needed to keep you occupied. WHile you may not have hit 10 in PnP in 2 years, I fail to see how that compares to DDO.

     

    The 20 levels in DDO will take some time to reach and they really do not need to add more.

  • PhelimReaghPhelimReagh Member UncommonPosts: 680
    Originally posted by Rokurgepta

    Originally posted by Death1942


    Its based on the Pen and paper system and i have yet to reach level 10 in that system (been playing for 2 years now, we had roughly 3 campaigns in that time) so 20 is more than enough to keep someone occupied.
     
    tbh i like this system far more than having 50+ levels but most people want to feel like they have achieved something every time they play and levels are the easiest way for the developer to reward them.



     

    In DDO it is not the levels that keep you occupied. Once you hit 20 lots of content is needed to keep you occupied. WHile you may not have hit 10 in PnP in 2 years, I fail to see how that compares to DDO.

     

    The 20 levels in DDO will take some time to reach and they really do not need to add more.

     

    Considering DDO is pretty much D&D 3.5 brought to life, the comparison is quite apt. Advancement in D&D PnP is very slow, as is this.

     

    Don't get offended. For many folks, the slower progression has many positives.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,552

    Progression was the absolute least of my concerns in DDO.When i logged into that game i was amazed at how cheap and dated it looked.There is games i rate very low because they miss many features or just do things far too simplistic or dumb down,DDO just does everything below average.

    IMO it ranks amongst the worst games in the market,alongside the cartoon F2p games you see popping up everywhere.I believe it set a new record for the fastest game i ever deleted from my HD,it really is that bad.To think that DDO was at one time a P2P is amazing that any sucker would have paid for that.

    It is very sad to see the theme that really set RPG's into motion,stemming way back to the miniatures by Gary Gygax, TSR and Chainmail and D&D board games.That was some 30 odd years ago and it has come to this ?I think it shows Turbine is a poor developer,and i actually have little respect for anything Hasbro ,witch is WOTC parent company.They are about money over quality,and will cheat,lie or break laws to do it as witnessed by Hasbro's lost lawsuit to the USA Government.

    Heck i remember playing DnD games on my first PC and Sega Sytems,and they were actually fun and pretty darn good.I remember the game Eternal Sun and EYE of the Beholder,of course Westwood studios was a developer i really liked,i played other games by them,but man that was 20 years ago,this product is a very small improvement at best.

     

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • PapadamPapadam Member Posts: 2,102
    Originally posted by Wizardry


    Progression was the absolute least of my concerns in DDO.When i logged into that game i was amazed at how cheap and dated it looked.There is games i rate very low because they miss many features or just do things far too simplistic or dumb down,DDO just does everything below average.
    IMO it ranks amongst the worst games in the market,alongside the cartoon F2p games you see popping up everywhere.I believe it set a new record for the fastest game i ever deleted from my HD,it really is that bad.To think that DDO was at one time a P2P is amazing that any sucker would have paid for that.
    It is very sad to see the theme that really set RPG's into motion,stemming way back to the miniatures by Gary Gygax, TSR and Chainmail and D&D board games.That was some 30 odd years ago and it has come to this ?I think it shows Turbine is a poor developer,and i actually have little respect for anything Hasbro ,witch is WOTC parent company.They are about money over quality,and will cheat,lie or break laws to do it as witnessed by Hasbro's lost lawsuit to the USA Government.
    Heck i remember playing DnD games on my first PC and Sega Sytems,and they were actually fun and pretty darn good.I remember the game Eternal Sun and EYE of the Beholder,of course Westwood studios was a developer i really liked,i played other games by them,but man that was 20 years ago,this product is a very small improvement at best.
     



     

    Eh ok?

    I always enjoy reading your long rants, because they never make any sense... thanks for trying thou :)

    If WoW = The Beatles
    and WAR = Led Zeppelin
    Then LotrO = Pink Floyd

  • NadiaNadia Member UncommonPosts: 11,798
    Originally posted by Wizardry


    Progression was the absolute least of my concerns in DDO.When i logged into that game i was amazed at how cheap and dated it looked.There is games i rate very low because they miss many features or just do things far too simplistic or dumb down,DDO just does everything below average.

    that wasnt my impression at all

     

    you say DDO misses many features - yet you list *zero* examples

     

    graphics:

    the game looks better than WOW to me altho you cannot you view your character from the front

     

    community:

    it reminds of me of the old days of Everquest or Guild Wars (at launch)

    most players are grouping after they leave the newbie island  -- and often for more than 1 quest

     

    players can solo if they want for the majority of the quests but grouping is more fun I think

     

    gameplay:

    I'm still getting used to the options for character building and classes / skills / feats

     

    most of the quest dungeons have traps or spawn mobs at different areas

    -- its a much more interesting game than go kill 10 rats

  • SevenOmaticSevenOmatic Member UncommonPosts: 176
    Originally posted by Nadia
    graphics:
    the game looks better than WOW to me altho you cannot you view your character from the front
     



     

    You can view your character from the front. Just use the number pad to control the camera. Make sure Number Lock is on.

  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Originally posted by Nadia
    graphics:
    the game looks better than WOW to me altho you cannot you view your character from the front
     



     

    You can view your character from the front if you hold down one of the keys on your numpad and rotate your view.

    Not sure which one it is,  I found it by accident and have never actually looked to see which key it is I am holding down

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • NadiaNadia Member UncommonPosts: 11,798

    thanks for tips on viewing your character !

  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Originally posted by Death1942


    Its based on the Pen and paper system and i have yet to reach level 10 in that system (been playing for 2 years now, we had roughly 3 campaigns in that time) so 20 is more than enough to keep someone occupied.
     
    tbh i like this system far more than having 50+ levels but most people want to feel like they have achieved something every time they play and levels are the easiest way for the developer to reward them.



     

    Instant gratification is the easy way out, but it lack long term fulfillment.

    I much prefer games whose achievement are more meaningful. DDO is one of the games where you actually feel you've achieved something when you hit level 20.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • RokurgeptaRokurgepta Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 2,136
    Originally posted by PhelimReagh

    Originally posted by Rokurgepta

    Originally posted by Death1942


    Its based on the Pen and paper system and i have yet to reach level 10 in that system (been playing for 2 years now, we had roughly 3 campaigns in that time) so 20 is more than enough to keep someone occupied.
     
    tbh i like this system far more than having 50+ levels but most people want to feel like they have achieved something every time they play and levels are the easiest way for the developer to reward them.



     

    In DDO it is not the levels that keep you occupied. Once you hit 20 lots of content is needed to keep you occupied. WHile you may not have hit 10 in PnP in 2 years, I fail to see how that compares to DDO.

     

    The 20 levels in DDO will take some time to reach and they really do not need to add more.

     

    Considering DDO is pretty much D&D 3.5 brought to life, the comparison is quite apt. Advancement in D&D PnP is very slow, as is this.

     

    Don't get offended. For many folks, the slower progression has many positives.



     

    Except DDO advancement is not very slow. It can be if you choose to make it that way, but you can also level to cap in about 48 hours of in game time.  I do not mind the time it can take if you choose to take your time, I was simply pointing out that comparing PnP time to DDO time is not really a good comparison.

  • GlenalthWGlenalthW Member Posts: 24


    Originally posted by Wizardry
    Progression was the absolute least of my concerns in DDO.When i logged into that game i was amazed at how cheap and dated it looked.

    Sounds like you may need to upgrade your video card.

  • RafadotnechiRafadotnechi Member UncommonPosts: 90
    Originally posted by Wizardry


    When i logged into that game i was amazed at how cheap and dated it looked.There is games i rate very low because they miss many features or just do things far too simplistic
     

    DDO dont have outstanding graphics like AOC but in fact have better graphics than 90% of the MMOs out there.

    DDO has Overbright  Bloom,DX10 Shadowing,HD textures,Dynamic Shadows,the models have a high number of polygons.

    cant say they are outdated.

     

  • masterofwowmasterofwow Member Posts: 23

    yeah i can vouch for that... looks great. ... man this forum is 1 funny 1 lol

  • cloud957cloud957 Member Posts: 8

    The fact that DDO has only 20 levels doesn't bother me at all, it took me longer to level up than in other MMOs, after two hours of DDO I was level 2 (rank 7) while after two hours of WoW I was level four.

  • cloud957cloud957 Member Posts: 8

    DDO looks better than WoW.

  • NefrinNefrin Member Posts: 13
    Originally posted by Nadia


    community:
    it reminds of me of the old days of Everquest or Guild Wars (at launch)
    most players are grouping after they leave the newbie island  -- and often for more than 1 quest

    QFT

    I didn't start in EQ, but my first MMO was DAoC, and I recall many times in that game where a group was formed, and it ran together for multiple hours together, doubely so if they got along and starting grooving.

    Nowadays, I am disappointed in the communities I find, mainly because there is no sense of commraderie anywhere. Most people hop into a group, or create one, for one goal, and then as soon as target X is achieved or killed, the group disbands and runs off to the four corners.

    I miss the days of extended grouping, as it had many advantages, and most players were enthusiastic to help out on a group members harder quests.

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