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A Long Time Ago, In a Galaxy Far, Far Away...
X-Porter
Member Posts: 229
Before the Interwebz, even before half-decent personal computers (PC's to some of you), there was a game called Starfleet Battles.
This was a strategy game based in the Star Trek universe. There was no Kirk, no Spock. It was set in a time of General War. There were Humans and Klingons and Vulcans. There were also Kzinti and Lyrans and Hydrans. It even accepted the Star Trek Animated Series as canon (go look it up. I'll wait).
Now, here's the really hard to believe part. It had nothing to do with exploration. Or diplomacy. Or Ensign Ricky pushing the Red Button at just the right time. Yet gamers loved it.
How did this happen?
Why were there no cries of outrage because people couldn't make contact with the people of Chtorr ? Why didn't people cry themselves to sleep at night because they had to destroy that Klingon troop transport rather than show them the True Meaning of Christmas? Because it was a game based on an IP they liked, and it was good.
So now what's changed?
There's a new Trek game on the horizon, and it looks pretty sweet. All kinds of character and ship customisation. Full content still undetermined, future possibilities unknown. But people are already crying Doom and Gloom. Why? Because it doesn't include what they consider canon? Because it includes new material they cry to Kahless not to be canon? Because they can't go to Mafia Planet and get a piece of the action? Or, wait, because there's too much focus on combat?
Bad news. Star Fleet is a military organization. Star Trek is no more a typical view of that future than M*A*S*H was a typical view of the past. Not every ship would have a Miracle Worker Engineer, a Wunderkind Navigator and a Philospher King Captain with a Pinnochio protege. For every Captain Kirk there would be a dozen Commodore Deckers, for every Janeway a score of Ransoms, for every Sisko a bunch of guys who did...less..boring crap. Ok, bad example there.
Short version, I see a lot less "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra" and a lot more "Kirk Forming a Rudimentary Lathe and Blasting the Gorn with a Bamboo Diamond Howitzer".
So, in a "Universe" that makes massive use of Parrallel Realities and Time Travel Paradoxes and "Ok, we accept this and this but not this", why are so many people complaining about the feel of this game? I'm not talking about player crews or things like that. I'm talking to the "Too Much Combat" crowd. Why was SFB a great game and yet STO is doomed to LOLfail? Is the Trek Universe so small that these things don't happen? Or is the idea that Shakespearian monologues might not be enough to forestall a planetary invasion too much to deal with?
Flame on.
Comments
Funny title. Excellent post. I don't approve of the "everyone captains their own ship thing", but they have said guild manned ships with future expansions will be in. As such, I can give them time to deliver on that promise.
now, if they'd just send me my beta key so I can boldly go...
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Har har...
Very, very nice.
But to add something useful I think that social interacting stuff like diplomacy etc. can't be forced into game mechanics. As a long time Eve-player I'd say that it will come naturally from player to player to player if the gaming world is open enough. Those people who cry "too much combat" can still use diplomacy when interacting with other players... Just don't forget that every featured ship in Star Trek had big guns too in case diplomacy failed.
I think you're caricaturing your opposition.
I'm pretty sure that most people concerned about the game being too combat-focused are not wishing for a pacifistic solution at every turn, but rather having nightmares of the Federation being very poorly represented, or the galaxy in general being more cheesily hostile than usual, full of fanged and dreadlocked neanderthals with warp drives.
You know, half the plot of Voyager.
Yes, of course Starfleet is a military organization, their vessels often heavily armed and so on. Anyone familiar with the setting through any medium knows how often Federation starships must kick ass whilst taking names.
What I think a lot of people don't want to see is a majority of combat-for-the-sake-of-combat type of gameplay, because pew-pewing is so oresome and all. At least in the case of Starfleet.
I don't know why you used Star Wars' opening tag line for this.
I called this game 'Star Fleet Battle - the MMO' about two months ago. Too bad Cryptic wasn't honest about that.
That board game did not prevent other Trek games from being made. My big objection to STO is that its existence probably prevents anyone from making a real MMORPG based on Trek.
Calling this Trek, when it is SO different from Trek is clearly a deception to bait some Trek fans who haven't researched the game. You are going to see a LOT of "Why can't I play Scotty, or Spock, or Data" posts when the game releases.
'Darmok' was my favourite TNG episode. A rerun of that episode actually got me back to watching the show after I had dropped it after a couple of seasons.
Drones weren't fun - they were a PITA.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Playing Devils advocate here....
1) I played Starfleet Battles (still have the box somewhere) and enjoyed it alot. It was a great WARGAME. I also played Risk and Panzer Leader and World in Flames and Advanced Squad Leader.... All of them were excellent WARGAMES. Would make pretty crappy role-playing games though without some major revisions.
At around the same time there was another game out there, by a company called FASA. It was called Star Trek - The RPG. It even had lots of cool combat rules... THAT was a good Role-Playing Game.
I like playing Chess to....it's a great game...you can even buy Star Trek themed sets..or so I hear. Don't think it would play very well as an MMORPG though.
2) Starfleet Battles (unlike the current descriptions of STO) actually involved the use of STRATEGY & TACTICS. Probably because it was designed by people who had some experience in playing and designing wargames. They knew at least, how terrestrial ships in the 20th Century fought each other...and could extrapolate that in a general way to work in a space based board game.
In Starfleet Battles shield facings mattered....took a little time to reinforce a downed shield. Energy allocation mattered....took a little time to shift your allocation around. Ship speed and facing and turning radius mattered, torpedo speed mattered, wild weasels and drones and all that other fun stuff mattered. You didn't have "Healer Ships" running around healing other ships and "Buffer Ships" and "DPS Ships".
In other words.....the combat in STO sounds about as deep in terms of STRATEGY & TACTICS as it does in World of Warcraft. It's all about... "My ship is higher level and has more HP then yours...I win!" And the "Mega-Phaser strike button on my hot-bar is flashing....that means it's time to press it and win!"
It would make for a crappy Role-Playing Game.....but a modern computer game version of Starfleet Battles WOULD be alot of fun to play.... STO isn't it. If you are looking for something like that....there are 10 year old computer games out there that are better. I'll be happy to reccomend any one of a dozen or so for you.... SOME of them even ARE Star Trek themed and feature MULTI-PLAYER online play.
I don't predict problems with this game because of anything to do with Star Trek. I do wonder if this is the game hard core Star Trek fans are looking for and I do think they need to add a lot of non-combative activites to this game for it to make sense. But I'm not a Trek fanboy and none of that stuff is my primary concern with this game.
My real issue is with Cryptic and their decisions concerning this game. There are some things Cryptic does really well (like character customization) and there are somethings Cryptic simply does very, very poorly (like... everything else). And its the things which Cryptic does poorly which are most important in MMORPGs in general but even more so in a Space combat game.
Look at EvE. Its a HUGE game with fantastic graphics, music and gameplay. It has a HUGE open ended game world where you can go anywhere at any level and the only barrier is the other players really. Now I'm not saying that EvE is a perferct game by any measure because it isn't. But thus far its the only successful space simulator MMO out there. Others have tried and failed (like the notoriously crappy "Earth and Beyond") and I think the reason EvE has thrived where others failed is because they understand how to present the vast nature of space in both a believeable and fun format.
Compare that to the type of game Cryptic knows how to make. City of Heroes and Chapmions Online (they recycled the game engine from CO to make STO by the way) were very tiny games with limited content and small instanced zones. There was little to no PvP. Once the end game content ran out there was little reason for players to continue to subscribe. That may work for a super hero game but will it do the job for a space game? No! I've said this before: You cannot simulate the galaxy in a series of small boxes!
Now Cryptic claims that this is going to be a different kind of game for them. They claim that it will all be on one server and that there will be open exploration. If you go to the STO website and read the laundry list of features they have planned it sounds pretty awesome. But a laundry list of features on a website is not a game and I have seen so many other developers fail to deliver in the past it is impossible for me to have faith anymore. AoC had an awesome laundry list of features but the game itself failed. Darkfall had a very awesome laundry list of features but it failed. Hell, years before anyone even heard of Darkfall there was a virtually identical game called Shadowbane which had a virtually identical laundry list of features and that game failed in such a spectular fashion that it has been topped only by the ultimate disaster of Dark and Light (which also had a pretty impressive laundry list). Why do so many MMOs fail these days? Because the developers promise things they are not able to deliver.
So Cryptic can claim whatever they like, it won't make be believe they have the skills to make a game like STO until I see them actually do it. They have proved twice now that they are very good at making one very specific type of game and STO is not meant to be that type of game. If Cryptic tries to force it to be that type of game (which is what I suspect they are trying to do) then it will fail to deliver what Star Trek fans want AND what MMO fans want. That is my complaint with this game. Other than that it looks like a fine product.
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields
Wow Raltar that was a pretty pessimistic view there, may be right, but real negative. Your right the developers have been promising the moon but I still hold out hope that the current ones see what happened to those others and won't repeat the same mistakes.
I too loved Star Fleet Battles and hope this game can spark some of those old flames. I'm more optimistic about the direction Crytic is headed than the OP, but understand his concerns. I'm real happy they included the Klingons as oppoenents and the fact the Klingon Houses will be a major factor in leveling there.
In all fairness, EVERY game in development has its doom and gloomers. Some people get just get off on being pessimistic.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
@MMO_Doubter:
Star Wars tagline in the STO forums? "Made you look".
As far as the IP lock, maybe with Star Wars having a second and perhaps third online game in the works, and with the possibility of two Marvel games on the horizon, maybe we'll see a change in how these things are handled? I don't know.
@GrumpyMel2:
This is kind of my point.
SFB took the Trek IP and adapted it fit within a WARGAME framework. And it took a lot of liberties with that IP. There were never any Attack or EWAR Shuttles in Trek. It straight up murdered Roddenberry's "Bright, Sunshiny Future" by having everyone in the galaxy fighting like rabid dogs. Yet no one seemed to mind because it was a good game.
Now STO is trying to adapt it to fit within the MMO framework and people are throwing fits.
Let's face it. MMO's are traditionally action-heavy (Yes, I know there's supposed to be an "RPG" there on the end but, really, that doesn't happen all that much in most of these games). There are certain mechanics todays MMO gamers are going to expect, and Cryptic pretty much has to make this game relatable to them as well as Trek fans. Maybe more so. They're not out to shift paradigms or become the bad-boy of gaming, they want an appealing game.
Labelling ships as "Buffer", "Healer", and "Dps" is entirely accurate from a gameplay stance. The trick is to paint it in the right velour shades of gold, blue, and red. How many times has Voyager had to extend it's shields to protect another ship? Hasn't the Enterprise had to reinforce another ship's structural integrity field on occassion, or relay the right command at the right time to turn the tides? Even the amazing EVE Online has ships that can fill these roles. These are matters of presentation that Trek fans will happily accept if couched in the correct lingo.
What I'm getting at is that people saying an MMO is too action heavy sounds silly to me. See how it feels and how it plays, then complain all you like if it's unacceptable to you. I'm interested in trying STO as a gamer and a fan. Maybe we should lay off the whole "More Rocky than Spocky" trip until we see how it's presented within the framework of an MMO?
Good points. I still remember using missiles in Starfleet Command, which was a game series based off Starfleet Battles. As I recall there was some pretty weird weaponry in that game that was never once seen on the show.Didn't stop me or many others from enjoying the game.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
A nice to read post. I always though Star Trek was a bad IP to make a MMO out of. Basically I regard a MMO as playing a person not a ship. Space fighting just was not very interesting to me. Now the big question is, sure the life of the Top 5 of Enterprise in the TV episode events is interesting. But what do they do when there is no "case"? What do all the nameless crewmen do? It's hard to say. Maybe Trek was a not so ideal choice to make a MMO in the first place, but thats just my opinion. I mean, I love Trek, but some things just don't make good MMOs, because what can you do being the hairdresser of Enterprise D?
I would have loved to see STO as something more social and more with at least 50% planet based gameplay. But thats just my distaste in space pew pew. Trek was IMVPO so much more than combat. So making a MMO, which in these days IS 95% combat (alas) makes Trek an odd choice for a MMO.
EDIT: And looking at CO it seems making games solely centered around action combat is Cryptics preferrence. It seems they have zero idea about how to enable socializing or ANYTHING that is not pew pew.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
X-Porter,
To my mind, Cryptic is making something which is NEITHER a good RPG NOR a good WARGAME that's really the issue for me. Their doing something that has some elements of both...but ends up, as a whole, not working for either. Kinda like serving vanilla ice-cream with ketchup.... they may be good individualy...but the way you combine them matters.
MMO's in general don't make for good WARGAMES..... they may be combat heavy, but they don't generaly have much actualy depth to the strategy and tactics of war...the nuts and bolts of what wargames work. More specificaly.... the standard paradigms that WOW style fantasy MMO's use for combat.... don't really fit too well in sci-fi based games...and they definately DON'T fit very well for a Ship vs Ship wargame style combat..... it's like the affomentioned ketchup on vanilla ice-cream. It doesn't translate well into the genre.
Everything I see about STO's ship vs ship combat doesn't evoke images of Star Fleet Battle or SFC...or Harpoon or virtualy any other SHIP based wargame. I wouldn't be thrilled about it as an MMORPG, but at least I might think it's a fun game to play (heck I play WWII Online...it's build as an MMORPG....but it's really nothing more then a semi-persistant FPS...but at least it's GOOD at being that...and fun to play) . Everything I see about STO evokes images of Paladins and Druids running around in space dressed up in ship skins.
Basicaly Cryptic COULD have gone the Wargame way....and made it a decent sci-fi wargame (even if not a real MMORPG). They COULD have gone the RPG way and made it a good SCI-FI (Trek) role-playing game. What I'm arguing is not that they choose one over the other...I'm arguing that they choose NEITHER. What they ended up doing is making a game that they already knew how to make.... a VERY STANDARD FANTASY/SUPER-HERO style MMO. The only thing they did is change the graphics/skins... and maybe make a couple small mechanic tweaks.
It's no more a Star Trek game...the a bunch of guys playing basketball in Star Trek uniforms is.
I played Star Fleet Battles as well as Star Trek the Roleplaying game. Both PnP games great for their time and very complex and detailed. Star Trek Online won't be like either of them. I'm not a big fan of every MMO that comes out following the Tank, Healer Dps design, it dumbs it down and makes it like every other MMO.
Until one of these developers takes a risk and tries something unique and new this is the way it's going to be. It's a ripple of the WoW effect and it's success, and the suits seem to think that that's the only way an MMO can succeed. It will be a long time before an MMO will be as detailed and deep in depth as a Pnp game simply because technology isn't there yet.
That being said, it's a Star Trek game so quit overthinking it and just enjoy it when it comes out, or don't. There will be many more Star Trek games in the years to come.
Awesome post and I agree one hundred percent with all points made. I think this is a nice illustration of what makes some dev's piss off gamers and say things like they are developing a "game" for Trekkies or mmo players, because MMO players are the worse and most critical group of players you can imagine. Nothing satisfies them and it seems every single one of them knows better than the devs what should/could be done. Gone are the days of hearing about a game that you are interested in and express that interest or if not move along, now everything to us seems like a political debate, look I grew up a huge Final Fantasy fan so suffice it to say when I learned of the first FF mmo I waited and read in eager anticipation, well the more I learned of the game the more I lost interest in what they decided to do with it, no harm no foul not once did I do what many mmo gamers do which is bitch and moan and try as hard as possible to try to add some sort of logic to my own opinion to validate it as more important than any other players or the devs themselves. Well again I never did play that FF mmo but not once have I gone out of my way to decry SquareEnix because I didn't get what I wanted.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
The difference is clearly that one game is an mmo. Now I know that being an MMO doesn't really mean anything but to a certain % of the MMO genre fanbase, MMO does mean certain things. And apparently what it means to those peoele, isn't what they see reflected in what they know of STO so far.
That's it.
Good read.
I am looking forward to see the outcome of this game. I liked some of the action sequenceses they have released so far and it looks quite interesting. Hope it holds up and the game play is as good as the images show.
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
Good one, OP. And you are absolutly right. some people have brains too rigid to understand anything else than their own thoughts and dreams.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
You have a good point which goes directly in line with what I posted above you and it's that lot's of people who consider themselves "mmo fans" are much more interested in back seat driving than actually taking the ride, again you are right many "mmo players" have a formed opinion about what they see from STO yet we have not seen anything relating to gameplay to say thatit will or won't be what they want, but one thing I can assure you is once it does release even if what theywant is offered most will deny it anyway or simply find another reason to not like it. I like mmo's but I've learned over I think the last few months I will always be a gamer first and an mmo fan second because again as far as mmo's go the community has a long way to go.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
To the OP:
I like the post, great read.
I am excited for this game and hope that the final product is not only playable but also makes you "feel" like you are a part of Starfleet or whatnot whatever.
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"I like wow, I like aion and I like AoC all for different reasons.....the later cause i get to see boobs, but still its a reason!!" - Sawlstone
Vanilla Ice and Ketchup... you mean like this:
I couldn't help it. ^^
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert