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Thoughts on this? Do you think WoW is unfun? Is the only enjoyable part really getting a nice item and leveling up? Everything inbetween is terrible so you socialize with friends in ventrilo to lessen the suffering? Is this guy just an elitist douche? I quite liked Braid.
"That kind of reward system is very easily turned into a Pavlovian or Skinnerian scheme," he says. "It's considered best practice: schedule rewards for your player so that they don't get bored and give up on your game. That's actually exploitation."Developers should provide activities that interest players "rather than stringing them along with little pieces of candy so that they'll suffer through terrible game play, but keep playing because they gain levels or new items", he says.
"I think a lot of modern game design is actually unethical, especially massively multiplayer games like World of Warcraft, because they are predicated on player exploitation," Mr Blow says.
Comments
Who gives a Shit what He/She thinks? That person sounds just like the many WoW haters on this site. They can never see past the hatred. To blinded by Anit-Fanboyism, to ever see the good things about WoW.
Yes, he mentioned WoW in a negative post, therefor he is a hater. He was talking about the genre in general, not just WoW.
You don't have to care what he thinks, but he does make some valid observations on the business of MMOs. Observations he is far from alone on. While I think they are exaggerated, I think it's clear (especially in the west) that players are ready for a change.
I still think WoW is a great game, but I also think it was the final pillar of the traditional MMO. It's done much of what the traditional MMO has to offer, leaving little room for progression under that model in the genre. Even good games like LotRO aren't lasting very long.
Jonathan Blow is the independent game developer who created the game Braid which is an amazing game and has sold many copies. He's exactly the kind of person people should listen to when he speaks.
Yes, he mentioned WoW in a negative post, therefor he is a hater. He was talking about the genre in general, not just WoW.
You don't have to care what he thinks, but he does make some valid observations on the business of MMOs. Observations he is far from alone on. While I think they are exaggerated, I think it's clear (especially in the west) that players are ready for a change.
I still think WoW is a great game, but I also think it was the final pillar of the traditional MMO. It's done much of what the traditional MMO has to offer, leaving little room for progression under that model in the genre. Even good games like LotRO aren't lasting very long.
Going to go ahead and disagree with you here. World of Warcraft took a lot of the same elements and made them less hardcore (except maybe raiding until Wrath of the Lich King came out). Many elements are fun to people, hardcore gameplay that is, and some people don't have fun, but if they enjoy gaining items/levels that is what they like, Blizzard is only successful because of the market.
Also, if you want to look into a western MMO that is "different" you might take a look at Dawntide, which isn't even really in a beta state, but the game is looking to offer a different style of gaming. Some say it's the UO spiritual successor, but whatever. And, on LotRO, it is a not any different than WoW, matter-of-fact, I would say it's on the same level, but the fact is WoW has loads more content, so who wins that one?
I think this is especially rich considering that the guy not only produced a platform game which by their very nature are designed on a repetative style of gameplay for the reward of collecting items and completing levels (the candy).Not only that, but looking at the game he designed, he also introduced aspects to actually make the gameplay easier like taking back time or slowing things down.
As for the whole 'Pavlovian' issue, well that is just idiotic as there is nothing more pavlovian than a platform game for conditioning response to a particular stimuli (mob comes, jump)! There is no genre more exploiting of this type of response from the gamer than a platform game.
I don't think that his points are totally invalid, but when you are basically doing the same things that you go on to criticize, even if it is in a different genre then your argument falls over a bit.
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
Have you played Braid?
To be fair, he did not direct his comments directly at WoW more to the MMO genre and just gave an example of WoW.
I basically had that view of the achievement system in WoW since the day they started it. And I have no f#&!*ng clue who or what a Braid is, whats going on with his Blow, or what he did with his platform.
stuff and things
It's a good analysis of MMOs - most of which are cynical money-making machines, not really games at all.
How many other pastimes involve paying money to repeatedly perform tasks which are unenjoyable for no real gain?
It's like paying someone to let you stuff envelopes for an occasional pat on the head.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I think this has a lot to do with this topic.
This answers some fun questions: "What motivates people? More importantly, what motivates people when there's no piece of candy to chase?"
An important thing to know is that you naturally become bored with things you've optimized. After a short while, MMORPGs aren't teaching you anything new or giving you new concepts to think about, so it's not entertaining.
They don't generally involve doing the same level dozens of times in hope of finally getting a rare item to drop, or grinding actions thousands of times to fill up a counter which then releases your food pellet.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
The guys comments sounds like sour grapes to me. Taking shots at other games and or companies because his doesn't match up in terms of numbers or popularity shows how infantile this guy really is. That is a job for his fanbois, not him.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
Well like it or not hes right. What hes describing is the idea of bliz on how wow will addict players. The truth is that wow as game has one target for the player and that is to get 80 lvl so you can play arena. For pve players its get lvl 80 to start raid. Either way your target to be succesfull in arena and raids u need to improve you gear( get better items. This guy mentioned the mostly about the common rewards from farming daily quests which give you marks ,farming daily dugeons for marks and rep which u turn back to get some nice items pve or pvp gear.
The truth is that after vanilla wow somehow the real fun and adventure element has been lost,somewhere beetween farming and the race for getting gear.What i also miss from vanilla wow is that some simple adds had the chance to drop rare good epiqs and due to that i havent caught myself in bc or wotlk going prepared in the wilds to go farm mobs.A diferrence also in vanilla wow was that not every player had full epiq gear even after a long time . Pvp means was harder to get good pvp gear cause onlyfew were getting commanders,marhals,grand marshals etc, and pve raids heh,well puggging was out of question.Raids were better designed and far more challenging demanding great focus and coop. This ofc was the reason so many ppl complained at forums and blizz after concideration step by step made wow easier and far more rewarding closer for the casual player than the hardcore, but then again its what ppl asked in wow forums and since blizz cares about the account numbers and subscription ..they just obliged to their audience 's majority demands. The upcoming expansion from what leaks saying will bring back wow closer to its vanilla form and will give character customazation a new meaning. Point is: the changes im reading included in teh new expansion should be implemented already and evolve wow even more in the new expansion.
Truth is since competition was ridiculous (ddo,lotro,aoc,Warhammer online,Darkfall failed) Blizz had no reason to speed up things in wow, they didnt had to work more on wow. In every product in the market if someone has monopolised something hes doing what he wants and giving no excuses. Thats why i keep telling to ppl : BE more DEMANDING . Complain and ASK more from devs. Bliz is reading forums and if the majority was asking more things than NERF this or BOOST that ,bliz would listen and would improve wow a lot more.
That was sarcasm right? Platformers by their very nature, no matter how many small twists you put into them are repetative, reward based games! You perform the same actions over and over again until you get the right and complete the level, solve the puzzle, open the door, save the princess or whatever the candy/carrot is.
..and SoS, no i haven't played it myself as i don't like platformers after spending years playing them on various old formats. I did some research before writing my response earlier though and regardless of the shifting game mechanics in various levels, it is to all intents and purposes a platform game.
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
Yesterday was our guilds 1st Birthday, so our guild leader arranged a hide and seek around the whole world combined with a competition for members based on embarrasing stories supplied by the officers (i was duely embarrased). This was followed by a quiz and a scavenger hunt for prizes. Now some will like the idea, some will think it is lame, but my point is that what other genre of game could you do that in???
Lots of people complain about developers not including enough content in their games, but at the same time i think that far too many players put far too little into their own gameplay too. The cornerstone of play as a child was your imagination and it does get buried through social convention over time, but MMO's are the ideal environment to release that again and the more you put in to the game, the more reward you will get from it.
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
That was sarcasm right? Platformers by their very nature, no matter how many small twists you put into them are repetative, reward based games! You perform the same actions over and over again until you get the right and complete the level, solve the puzzle, open the door, save the princess or whatever the candy/carrot is.
..and SoS, no i haven't played it myself as i don't like platformers after spending years playing them on various old formats. I did some research before writing my response earlier though and regardless of the shifting game mechanics in various levels, it is to all intents and purposes a platform game.
Then STFU because you obviously don't have a clue what you are talking about.
So i have no idea what a platformer entails regardless of 30 years of playing games with a vast majority of those being platformers in the early/middle years, fine.
I will glady bow to your vast knowledge when you point out exactly where my comments fail, i have never had an issue with that, i stand to be corrected so fire away.
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
So i have no idea what a platformer entails regardless of 30 years of playing games with a vast majority of those being platformers in the early/middle years, fine.
I will glady bow to your vast knowledge when you point out exactly where my comments fail, i have never had an issue with that, i stand to be corrected so fire away.
Platformers dont squeeze 13 euros out of your pocket every month. you are wrong on all accounts, but I think most people know you by now. Say something bad about wow, and jason comes running with his mighty hammer.
Blizzard saw, with diablo2, that there were alot of people that were willing to run the same instances for years! for hopes that a random shiny item dropped. Thats what they build wow around, not EQ. WoW is a diablo2 spiritual successor, with standard mmorpg mechanics.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
I played braid for a bit because of the reviews. It's an addictive puzzle game that happens to be a platformer. Re-read that for a moment. It's an addictive puzzle game.... A game that I can pick up for 30 minutes or so and put the controller down when I'm bored.
As a platformer, it's not anything special. Changing colors and backgrounds moving through time isn't anything special. The only one thing that I thought "Hey, that's original" is the ability to travel through time and space simulateously. It's a very good game and well desevered ratings - but it's a completely different genre of game and his opinion should be taken with a grain of salt when looking at any other gaming genre. It's like the owner of a McDonald's giving his opinion about a Jiffy Lube and saying that an oil change should have a better experience. I mean, they are both have drive up service right?
Anyway, yes - a lot of things are fed to players on a piece meal basis. That's the entire purpose of an MMO. After someone plays braid and beats it, chances are its going to be "thrown away" (sold to GameStop, etc.). An MMO is a long term investment for both the maker and the player. Blizzard has been adding several things to the game over time. In addition they do have a nice ladder scheme. As they add more rungs on the top, they lower the bottom ones so that casual players can access new content as well. Leveling, to me, is not much fun - but many of these new instances are whats fun. I don't care about the rewards that I get at the end.
Did you actually take any time at all to read any of this thread?? When was cost or WoW directly mentioned other than in an example of freedom of choice i mentioned above???
If i feel i have something to say on a subject, i will say it and i will also expect people to have opposing views which i am more than happy to take on board, but just jumping in to a thread to have a personal bash at someone with nothing useful to say is pointless from a personal point of view!
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
Well said.
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
Did you actually take any time at all to read any of this thread?? When was cost or WoW directly mentioned other than in an example of freedom of choice i mentioned above???
If i feel i have something to say on a subject, i will say it and i will also expect people to have opposing views which i am more than happy to take on board, but just jumping in to a thread to have a personal bash at someone with nothing useful to say is pointless from a personal point of view!
But the monthly cost of mmos has everything to do with this subject. Why do mmo companies want you playing for a long time? for you to have fun for a long time? get real. They want you playing for a long time so you are paying them for a long time. Thats how the genre works. and the carrot on a stick is how they achieve this. screw making a game that builds its gameplay around fun instead of putting a shiny purple on a stick. carrots and sticks are simple and easy, and making games that are about fun makes developers' heads hurt.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
So i have no idea what a platformer entails regardless of 30 years of playing games with a vast majority of those being platformers in the early/middle years, fine.
I will glady bow to your vast knowledge when you point out exactly where my comments fail, i have never had an issue with that, i stand to be corrected so fire away.
Because:
Originally posted by jason_webb
Originally posted by chunky_slice
No. The fanbois dont bash the people leaving for quitting, they bash us for not thinking that every little thing Blizzard do is amazing and perfect. Try reading some of Zorndorf's posts sometimes.
And this is an independent WoW forum. People leaving the game after 4 years have as much right to post here as someone who thinks patch 3.2 is the greatest thing since the wheel and want to have have Ghostcrawler's babies.
Of course anyone has the right to post here, even someone who has never played the game has the right to post about any subject here, but you have to admit that it gives you a weaker platform if you are talking from second or third hand experience. Someone who quit pre BC talking about how the changes in Lich King have affected the gameplay is on pretty shaky ground to start with don't you think???
Zorn is Zorn and can be a little over zealous in defending the game he likes, but as you have already pointed out yourself he has every right to do so and at least he does take the time to research an answer or speaks from direct experience when doing so.
www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3024686#3024686
Now go away!
He's right in a sense. People who develop these games probably would call it a "sense of accomplishment" as opposed to "exploitation". Without the sense of investment and character development and the ability to easily connect with friends from around the world, the standard MMO fare isn't all that good, and games like CO that cut back on the sense of accomplishment and the challenging team content in favor of a more modernized action style gameplay hasn't exactly captured the interest of the people. The end effect is that innovation has sure seemed stifled. I guess it would be fair to say that after putting 15 days of /played into a character, the consumer wants new reasons to continue playing the game.
Yes, these are my words and i completely stand by them, but this still doesn't mean a thing unless you tell me where my comments have fallen down??
Please take all the time in the world to trawl through every one of my previous posts, it is an interesting read for anyone in my personal opinion, but still begs the question, do you have a point???
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.