... Yeah but DF has NO TRIAL and word is the game is a broken pre-Beta mess. Until DF offers a trial (due to the horrible word of mouth) I, for one, wont be plunking down the $50 to try it- Especially since FE is offering a trial soon and the Mods at the DF forum are Nazi's (worse then $OE MOD's)
I almost didn't buy it because of this. But my mom recently just paid me back a bunch of cash so i said fuck it and it was definitely worth it. Though I wouldn't recommend doing that unless you've got the money to spare. It is a mess regarding macros and skills not properly functioning, but the pvp is all the same.
Personally I love the idea of death penalties and corpse looting but I have many friends and guildmates who will not even consider a game if they hear player looting is involved. Most of them do not understand how different these type games are and why those mechanics are in the game.
In gear driven games like WoW, where someone might spend days/weeks farming for a certain item or EQ, where someone might spend weeks/months for an item, the idea of having those items looted by the first ganker to come along is a huge turn off. I played everyday for 9 months straight to get my clerics water sprinkler and I wont lie, I would cry like biatch if someone ever looted it.
In skill based games like EVE and DF, the gear you lose is typically crafted and most players have back up sets in the bank or hangar. In EVE I would lose 3-4 rifters a night during faction warfare but when I docked I would come out equipped in the identical ship/setup that I lost 30 seconds prior. Both in EVE and DF, your characters main strengths are not in your gear/ships (unlike WoW) but in your skills, which cannot be looted.
In order to have a game that allows player looting, you have to design a game based around a skill system or some other system that does not so heavily rely on gear as the main strength of your character. Then you have to educate those casual players that think player looting = losing their purple EPICS, so that they understand losing a piece of gear is not the end of the world. Even then, most of those players wont try it because there are plenty of games on the market that offer them cool rewards with zero risk, like a penguin for making a b.net account. You cant win against the penguin!
That's true, the Penguin is quite formidable. Also, I remember running missions for hours in order to have half a dozen Rifters for backup, just so I could be an ass without losing too much.....but I had tendencies to forget to buy the guns for it...or the ammo >.<
I think games like Darkfall, and EVE, have such a strong dedicated (and harsh) community because of such things as the death penalties You got any proof that death penalty alone gives strong community?. If you look at UO, some of the top clans of Darkfall / EVE originated from that game. I think it rules out all the people that could 'kinda like the game' and only leaves the people that really like the ruleset, leading to likeminded people playing the game. You are trying to say, the game alienates the majority of the gamer population, so whoever else still logging onto the game is called by you as strong dedicated. The same goes for the mental hospital. Only lunatics stays inside, the majority leaves. Those inpatients are indeed strong dedicated. I am currently playing Darkfall and loving it so far because its just more fun. That is your idea of fun. Not everyone's. The fact that so few people bother with that game seems to be an indirect prove that not many consider that fun at all. You feel more attached to the game when you die that is you, not me and start cursing off your keyboard that you just lost your mount and brand new armor set you like to play a game in which you gets upset and frustrated, not everyone else do, definitely not everyone does when they are not in a good mood. You're forced you like to play a game in which you are forced to take risks with trusting people, and sometimes that leads to friendship, or hostility and longterm enemies... either one leads to long term involvment of everyone in the community.
It is a great design for a game because of risks you are starting a course on game design?. A game without risk might as well throw a quicksave button in there that is all you know about game design? risk or quicksave button? now I know how good you are about this topic. When you do something good in a game like Darkfall, you are happy for a while and want to talk about it and tell your story yeah I know, you play a game in order to talk like a big man. Hmm E-peens.. Whereas in a game with little risk like WoW, you do something (idk what you do because there isnt anything to do thats considered 'cool' anymore) you will tell people and they will say 'yea everyone does it'. I remember playing basketball at the backyard, I never need to go home and talk about how I played. I only need to go home for a shower afterwards.
Not all games can be like this and I am not forcing my opinion on developers or saying my opinion is right. But I am saying that personally, without risk, games effing suck REALLY bad. Yeah this I strongly agree, you have a very clear understanding of what you like. I salute you, in knowing that its only a personal view.
Different strokes for different folks. Different games for different gamers.
Why not just make different mmorpg with different death penalty. Carebare can play their carebare game. hardcore player can play their hardcore game. Personally, I felt they should just make servers with different death penalty. And people can play on whatever server they want.
lol at people thinking tehre somehow "hardcore" for playing a videogame.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling" Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
Why not just make different mmorpg with different death penalty. Carebare can play their carebare game. hardcore player can play their hardcore game. Personally, I felt they should just make servers with different death penalty. And people can play on whatever server they want.
I just wonder, what is so great about being "hard core" in a game? Epeens again? or just a meaning use of an adjective?
Not directed against you laok, as the term has been abused in so many different ways already.
Why not just make different mmorpg with different death penalty. Carebare can play their carebare game. hardcore player can play their hardcore game. Personally, I felt they should just make servers with different death penalty. And people can play on whatever server they want.
lol at people thinking tehre somehow "hardcore" for playing a videogame.
It's faster to type compare to "people who want harsh death penalty".
I don't think he's wrong at all. Real World and game world are two different things. from my experience, players who risk harsh penalties in a game tend NOT to take challenges, especially when the reward is just knowing that you "might" be able to solo that boss. Now, if the reward was extremely great, then yes, I think some people would. However, not all. How many people really open their own business or take a gamble on some off the path career that may or may not give them something more than your regular 8 hour job?
Exactly. Besides, as I've suggested before, for people who want extreme death penalties... if they die, they can just delete the character. That's about as extreme as you can get and extremely realistic. You only have one life, once you die, you're dead forever. I don't see too many people taking that option, do you?
The fact is, these people don't want harsh death penalties for themselves, they want to force them on everyone else.
I don't think he's wrong at all. Real World and game world are two different things. from my experience, players who risk harsh penalties in a game tend NOT to take challenges, especially when the reward is just knowing that you "might" be able to solo that boss. Now, if the reward was extremely great, then yes, I think some people would. However, not all. How many people really open their own business or take a gamble on some off the path career that may or may not give them something more than your regular 8 hour job?
Exactly. Besides, as I've suggested before, for people who want extreme death penalties... if they die, they can just delete the character. That's about as extreme as you can get and extremely realistic. You only have one life, once you die, you're dead forever. I don't see too many people taking that option, do you?
The fact is, these people don't want harsh death penalties for themselves, they want to force them on everyone else.
Why does it have to be an extreme death penalty? WoW has practically no death penalty, just a small gold cost. DF and EVE have rather mild death penalties, you lose gear/ships that are easily replaced. That small difference between WoW and DFs death penalty makes a huge difference in player satisfaction and forces a level of responsibility on the player.
You guys are blowing everything out of proportion with your extreme permadeath suggestions.
Originally posted by Murashu Why does it have to be an extreme death penalty? WoW has practically no death penalty, just a small gold cost. DF and EVE have rather mild death penalties, you lose gear/ships that are easily replaced. That small difference between WoW and DFs death penalty makes a huge difference in player satisfaction and forces a level of responsibility on the player.
While I will not disagree that WoW's lower death penalties provide a greater level of player satisfaction, I really do not see the argument about a 'level of responsibility'. The only 'level of responsibility' required in a MMO is in the way we interact with other players (ie we have a responsibility not to let our shortcommings negatively affect other players). Death penalties simply channel the players into playstyles that reduce the impact of the death penalty. So activities that have an increased chance of character death will be shunned and players will stick to 'tried and true' methods and only the most advanterous will try to innovate.
Originally posted by Murashu Why does it have to be an extreme death penalty? WoW has practically no death penalty, just a small gold cost. DF and EVE have rather mild death penalties, you lose gear/ships that are easily replaced. That small difference between WoW and DFs death penalty makes a huge difference in player satisfaction and forces a level of responsibility on the player.
While I will not disagree that WoW's lower death penalties provide a greater level of player satisfaction, I really do not see the argument about a 'level of responsibility'. The only 'level of responsibility' required in a MMO is in the way we interact with other players (ie we have a responsibility not to let our shortcommings negatively affect other players). Death penalties simply channel the players into playstyles that reduce the impact of the death penalty. So activities that have an increased chance of character death will be shunned and players will stick to 'tried and true' methods and only the most advanterous will try to innovate.
I agree some people will stick to the tried and true methods but they are the ones who already do that today so whats the difference? When I raided in WoW, I knew people who refused to attempt a raid boss without reading every wowhead comment and watching all the "how to" videos on youtube. I once spent nearly 2 hours clearing Sigmar Crypts in WAR because our tank was so scared of attempting each boss, he had to have someone talk him thru every step of the fights before he would try it. Some people are just afraid to try things and no matter how large or small the death penalties are, they wont change.
Why does it have to be an extreme death penalty? WoW has practically no death penalty, just a small gold cost. DF and EVE have rather mild death penalties, you lose gear/ships that are easily replaced. That small difference between WoW and DFs death penalty makes a huge difference in player satisfaction and forces a level of responsibility on the player.
You guys are blowing everything out of proportion with your extreme permadeath suggestions.
The point is, if someone wants a harsh death penalty, they can easily impose it on themselves. Delete all your gear. Throw away your gold. Kill yourself. It's up to you what you do. The idea that you have any right to force your preferred play style on anyone else is utterly absurd.
Stop acting like how anyone else plays is any of your damn business and play your own game.
The point is, if someone wants a harsh death penalty, they can easily impose it on themselves. Delete all your gear. Throw away your gold. Kill yourself. It's up to you what you do. The idea that you have any right to force your preferred play style on anyone else is utterly absurd. Stop acting like how anyone else plays is any of your damn business and play your own game.
Yes after reading your post I think I will kill myself.
How am I forcing my playstyle on someone else? We were having a friendly discussion before you started expressing your extremist ideas. /wrists
The point is, if someone wants a harsh death penalty, they can easily impose it on themselves. Delete all your gear. Throw away your gold. Kill yourself. It's up to you what you do. The idea that you have any right to force your preferred play style on anyone else is utterly absurd. Stop acting like how anyone else plays is any of your damn business and play your own game.
Yes after reading your post I think I will kill myself.
How am I forcing my playstyle on someone else? We were having a friendly discussion before you started expressing your extremist ideas. /wrists
You're forcing it on others by asking developers to make the penalties harsher again . Maybe not you specifically but when people say, I WANT A HARSHER DEATH PENALTY, they don't really mean I...they mean EVERYONE. If they only wanted it for themselves, they could impose it on themselves very easily, but thats NOT what they want. They want everyone to share in their suffering and thats what a harsh penalty is...suffering.
If I have to run a 1/2 hr back to where I was, thats suffering. If I have to grind for an hour to recoup the gold lost or EXP lost, thats suffering. You're making me do something that adds NOTHING enjoyable to the game. Most people prefer a sting. A slap to tell them they did it wrong...GO Try again! They don't enjoy a kick in the balls like certain people do=) And yes, people who played EQ enjoyed getting kicked in the nads repeatedly;)
The point is, if someone wants a harsh death penalty, they can easily impose it on themselves. Delete all your gear. Throw away your gold. Kill yourself. It's up to you what you do. The idea that you have any right to force your preferred play style on anyone else is utterly absurd. Stop acting like how anyone else plays is any of your damn business and play your own game.
Yes after reading your post I think I will kill myself.
How am I forcing my playstyle on someone else? We were having a friendly discussion before you started expressing your extremist ideas. /wrists
You're forcing it on others by asking developers to make the penalties harsher again . Maybe not you specifically but when people say, I WANT A HARSHER DEATH PENALTY, they don't really mean I...they mean EVERYONE. If they only wanted it for themselves, they could impose it on themselves very easily, but thats NOT what they want. They want everyone to share in their suffering and thats what a harsh penalty is...suffering.
If I have to run a 1/2 hr back to where I was, thats suffering. If I have to grind for an hour to recoup the gold lost or EXP lost, thats suffering. You're making me do something that adds NOTHING enjoyable to the game. Most people prefer a sting. A slap to tell them they did it wrong...GO Try again! They don't enjoy a kick in the balls like certain people do=) And yes, people who played EQ enjoyed getting kicked in the nads repeatedly;)
How am I forcing you to do anything when playing an MMO is your choice? Games like WoW, WAR, AoC, EQ2, and VG, that have no death penalty, bore me very quickly because they feel more like an FPS, you die, respawn, die, respawn....over and over with no penalty but guess what? No one forces me to play those games so I quit. Im not asking Blizzard, Mythic, Funcom and SOE to change games that have been out for years. I do hope that those game companies see that some people do still like the thrill of taking risks and implement death penalties in future releases. If they do make a new game with a death penalty...it will be your choice to play it.
Please stop with the exaggerations already. Kick in the nads? Who here is suggesting 30 minute corpse runs? Who is asking for an hour grind for gold and exp? You and the permadeath guys are using extremes that no one else has asked for.
Please stop with the exaggerations already. Kick in the nads? Who here is suggesting 30 minute corpse runs? Who is asking for an hour grind for gold and exp? You and the permadeath guys are using extremes that no one else has asked for.
All the people who want EQ again, which there are a vocal bunch. Long corpse runs, grinding for EXP. That was EQ. WHen people use EQ as an example of the ways things should still be, thats what I';m refering to. Besides, its not like you can keep wiping on a dungeon or boss over and over and eventually win. You'll NEVER win, esspecially with respawns.
I agree, WAR's penalty was a joke. But WOW's is perfect or at least was in vanilla before gold was being dropped from the sky;)
Although I think it was perfect for non-raiding, and wasn't quite ideal for raiding.
For raiding, there are a few viable ways to do death penalty:
A. Have no gold cost, because the "cost" of dying is not getting loot and bosses are balanced to be hard enough to wipe your group a bunch. This is less than ideal because it means the majority of gameplay revolves around.
B. Expensive gold cost, but let raids be a reasonably good source of gold. "Alright we've wiped a few times on Facerender and that's cost us a lot of gold. Let's go to the Gold Slime Wing and kill those mobs and bosses for a while to recoup our losses."
C. Have no gold cost, instant respawn with full raid buffs upon raid wipe, but reset all the trash mobs. So raids would play out like oldschool games (like Gradius or Control) where to get the reward you have to make it all the way through each wing without wiping. A few deaths? No prob, you can rez people. A wipe? You start over.
I've pushed idea (C) for a while, as it's raiding without excessive downtime (which is pure tedium.) Yet it still retains serious penalties for dying (you don't get the loot and you have to play the game more to get back where you were.) But that's the key difference, you play the game. Current death in raids means a lot of running back and rebuffing/etc. That isn't playing the game. The game has basically told them, "You died so now you don't get to play for 8-15 minutes."
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The point is, if someone wants a harsh death penalty, they can easily impose it on themselves. Delete all your gear. Throw away your gold. Kill yourself. It's up to you what you do. The idea that you have any right to force your preferred play style on anyone else is utterly absurd. Stop acting like how anyone else plays is any of your damn business and play your own game.
Yes after reading your post I think I will kill myself.
How am I forcing my playstyle on someone else? We were having a friendly discussion before you started expressing your extremist ideas. /wrists
You're forcing it on others by asking developers to make the penalties harsher again . Maybe not you specifically but when people say, I WANT A HARSHER DEATH PENALTY, they don't really mean I...they mean EVERYONE. If they only wanted it for themselves, they could impose it on themselves very easily, but thats NOT what they want. They want everyone to share in their suffering and thats what a harsh penalty is...suffering.
If I have to run a 1/2 hr back to where I was, thats suffering. If I have to grind for an hour to recoup the gold lost or EXP lost, thats suffering. You're making me do something that adds NOTHING enjoyable to the game. Most people prefer a sting. A slap to tell them they did it wrong...GO Try again! They don't enjoy a kick in the balls like certain people do=) And yes, people who played EQ enjoyed getting kicked in the nads repeatedly;)
HTFU.
Of course the penalties have to apply to everyone, and they shouldn't be designed in every game to cater to the lowest common denominator.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All the people who want EQ again, which there are a vocal bunch. Long corpse runs, grinding for EXP. That was EQ. WHen people use EQ as an example of the ways things should still be, thats what I';m refering to. Besides, its not like you can keep wiping on a dungeon or boss over and over and eventually win. You'll NEVER win, esspecially with respawns. I agree, WAR's penalty was a joke. But WOW's is perfect or at least was in vanilla before gold was being dropped from the sky;)
If you think WoW is perfect that is great, I hope you enjoy it. I played it for a while myself but the lack of risk vs free epics for showing up mentality doesnt keep some of us entertained for long. I have friends who absolutely love it. They have 10 character slots with lvl 80s all decked out in purple epics and beg Blizzard for more slots so they can keep getting those epics. Im really happy they enjoy that playstyle, but I think it would be nice to have a modern MMO for those of us like risk AND reward.
I dont mind you having your playstyle, what is so threatening to you about mine?
The point is, if someone wants a harsh death penalty, they can easily impose it on themselves. Delete all your gear. Throw away your gold. Kill yourself. It's up to you what you do. The idea that you have any right to force your preferred play style on anyone else is utterly absurd. Stop acting like how anyone else plays is any of your damn business and play your own game.
Yes after reading your post I think I will kill myself.
How am I forcing my playstyle on someone else? We were having a friendly discussion before you started expressing your extremist ideas. /wrists
You're forcing it on others by asking developers to make the penalties harsher again . Maybe not you specifically but when people say, I WANT A HARSHER DEATH PENALTY, they don't really mean I...they mean EVERYONE. If they only wanted it for themselves, they could impose it on themselves very easily, but thats NOT what they want. They want everyone to share in their suffering and thats what a harsh penalty is...suffering.
If I have to run a 1/2 hr back to where I was, thats suffering. If I have to grind for an hour to recoup the gold lost or EXP lost, thats suffering. You're making me do something that adds NOTHING enjoyable to the game. Most people prefer a sting. A slap to tell them they did it wrong...GO Try again! They don't enjoy a kick in the balls like certain people do=) And yes, people who played EQ enjoyed getting kicked in the nads repeatedly;)
I just had to respond to this asshat discussion. Of course you have to make death penalties the same for everyone in most of todays games. Even if you by design want to make it a harsh one. The reason for this being that while I can of course be an advocate of perma death f. ex. and there fore delete my char if I die in for instance WoW, how much fun is this when I meet a guy of the enemy faction who will not delete his character if I kill him in battle ?
The implications if you apply rules only to yourself are different opposed to if you apply them to everyone. If the WoW guy lives by different rules, he can try and gank me over and over again until he finally succeeds and I delete my char. Now if he was forced to delete his char if he lost the battle, things would fare differently. Basicly you are saying that if I think that loosing a pawn in competitive chess tournaments has too little penalty in the game of chess, I should concede from every tournament I play in as soon as I loose a pawn instead of advocating for a change in game rules ? (or a whole new game).
Also, there exists people who want permadeath for themselves, but they just dont exist in games such as WoW due to the nature of these games. Dungeons and Dragons Online for instance has pernadeath guilds. If you are in one of these guilds, you are expected to delete your character if you die. The reason why it works to apply this rule to yourself in this game, is because it is basicly a dungeoncrawling game where you dont battle other players, and get to choose who you group with for said dungeons. Meaning that you will get to choose to play with people who play by the same ruleset as you do. You have the option of avoiding to do a dungeon with an idiot who will wipe your group because he doesnt care about dying, just by grouping only with your guildies who play permadeath rules.
In conclusion, you cant have people being able to affect other peoples characters on the basis of different rules. Just like playing chess isnt fun if I have to concede cus I loose a pawn whereas the other guy only loose when he is checkmate.
All the people who want EQ again, which there are a vocal bunch. Long corpse runs, grinding for EXP. That was EQ. WHen people use EQ as an example of the ways things should still be, thats what I';m refering to. Besides, its not like you can keep wiping on a dungeon or boss over and over and eventually win. You'll NEVER win, esspecially with respawns. I agree, WAR's penalty was a joke. But WOW's is perfect or at least was in vanilla before gold was being dropped from the sky;)
If you think WoW is perfect that is great, I hope you enjoy it. I played it for a while myself but the lack of risk vs free epics for showing up mentality doesnt keep some of us entertained for long. I have friends who absolutely love it. They have 10 character slots with lvl 80s all decked out in purple epics and beg Blizzard for more slots so they can keep getting those epics. Im really happy they enjoy that playstyle, but I think it would be nice to have a modern MMO for those of us like risk AND reward.
I dont mind you having your playstyle, what is so threatening to you about mine?
Nothing. And you can go play Darkfall or Eve happily while i play wow.
Although since it is a public forum, i have as much right to point out that I like the WOW style (difficult but NOT grindy with unnecessarily harsh death penalty) as you point out what style you like.
Plus, we are also perfectly within our prerogative to discuss which style is more popular.
Comments
I almost didn't buy it because of this. But my mom recently just paid me back a bunch of cash so i said fuck it and it was definitely worth it. Though I wouldn't recommend doing that unless you've got the money to spare. It is a mess regarding macros and skills not properly functioning, but the pvp is all the same.
That's true, the Penguin is quite formidable. Also, I remember running missions for hours in order to have half a dozen Rifters for backup, just so I could be an ass without losing too much.....but I had tendencies to forget to buy the guns for it...or the ammo >.<
Different strokes for different folks. Different games for different gamers.
Why not just make different mmorpg with different death penalty.
Carebare can play their carebare game. hardcore player can play their hardcore game.
Personally, I felt they should just make servers with different death penalty. And people can play on whatever server they want.
lol at people thinking tehre somehow "hardcore" for playing a videogame.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
I just wonder, what is so great about being "hard core" in a game? Epeens again? or just a meaning use of an adjective?
Not directed against you laok, as the term has been abused in so many different ways already.
lol at people thinking tehre somehow "hardcore" for playing a videogame.
It's faster to type compare to "people who want harsh death penalty".
Exactly. Besides, as I've suggested before, for people who want extreme death penalties... if they die, they can just delete the character. That's about as extreme as you can get and extremely realistic. You only have one life, once you die, you're dead forever. I don't see too many people taking that option, do you?
The fact is, these people don't want harsh death penalties for themselves, they want to force them on everyone else.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
At this point, death is becoming no penalty and in some cases is reward (free travel).
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
Exactly. Besides, as I've suggested before, for people who want extreme death penalties... if they die, they can just delete the character. That's about as extreme as you can get and extremely realistic. You only have one life, once you die, you're dead forever. I don't see too many people taking that option, do you?
The fact is, these people don't want harsh death penalties for themselves, they want to force them on everyone else.
Why does it have to be an extreme death penalty? WoW has practically no death penalty, just a small gold cost. DF and EVE have rather mild death penalties, you lose gear/ships that are easily replaced. That small difference between WoW and DFs death penalty makes a huge difference in player satisfaction and forces a level of responsibility on the player.
You guys are blowing everything out of proportion with your extreme permadeath suggestions.
While I will not disagree that WoW's lower death penalties provide a greater level of player satisfaction, I really do not see the argument about a 'level of responsibility'. The only 'level of responsibility' required in a MMO is in the way we interact with other players (ie we have a responsibility not to let our shortcommings negatively affect other players). Death penalties simply channel the players into playstyles that reduce the impact of the death penalty. So activities that have an increased chance of character death will be shunned and players will stick to 'tried and true' methods and only the most advanterous will try to innovate.
one of the only new games with harsh exp loss is Aion, before 40 you can buy it back but after 40 you can't.
While I will not disagree that WoW's lower death penalties provide a greater level of player satisfaction, I really do not see the argument about a 'level of responsibility'. The only 'level of responsibility' required in a MMO is in the way we interact with other players (ie we have a responsibility not to let our shortcommings negatively affect other players). Death penalties simply channel the players into playstyles that reduce the impact of the death penalty. So activities that have an increased chance of character death will be shunned and players will stick to 'tried and true' methods and only the most advanterous will try to innovate.
I agree some people will stick to the tried and true methods but they are the ones who already do that today so whats the difference? When I raided in WoW, I knew people who refused to attempt a raid boss without reading every wowhead comment and watching all the "how to" videos on youtube. I once spent nearly 2 hours clearing Sigmar Crypts in WAR because our tank was so scared of attempting each boss, he had to have someone talk him thru every step of the fights before he would try it. Some people are just afraid to try things and no matter how large or small the death penalties are, they wont change.
The point is, if someone wants a harsh death penalty, they can easily impose it on themselves. Delete all your gear. Throw away your gold. Kill yourself. It's up to you what you do. The idea that you have any right to force your preferred play style on anyone else is utterly absurd.
Stop acting like how anyone else plays is any of your damn business and play your own game.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Yes after reading your post I think I will kill myself.
How am I forcing my playstyle on someone else? We were having a friendly discussion before you started expressing your extremist ideas. /wrists
Yes after reading your post I think I will kill myself.
How am I forcing my playstyle on someone else? We were having a friendly discussion before you started expressing your extremist ideas. /wrists
You're forcing it on others by asking developers to make the penalties harsher again . Maybe not you specifically but when people say, I WANT A HARSHER DEATH PENALTY, they don't really mean I...they mean EVERYONE. If they only wanted it for themselves, they could impose it on themselves very easily, but thats NOT what they want. They want everyone to share in their suffering and thats what a harsh penalty is...suffering.
If I have to run a 1/2 hr back to where I was, thats suffering. If I have to grind for an hour to recoup the gold lost or EXP lost, thats suffering. You're making me do something that adds NOTHING enjoyable to the game. Most people prefer a sting. A slap to tell them they did it wrong...GO Try again! They don't enjoy a kick in the balls like certain people do=) And yes, people who played EQ enjoyed getting kicked in the nads repeatedly;)
Yes after reading your post I think I will kill myself.
How am I forcing my playstyle on someone else? We were having a friendly discussion before you started expressing your extremist ideas. /wrists
You're forcing it on others by asking developers to make the penalties harsher again . Maybe not you specifically but when people say, I WANT A HARSHER DEATH PENALTY, they don't really mean I...they mean EVERYONE. If they only wanted it for themselves, they could impose it on themselves very easily, but thats NOT what they want. They want everyone to share in their suffering and thats what a harsh penalty is...suffering.
If I have to run a 1/2 hr back to where I was, thats suffering. If I have to grind for an hour to recoup the gold lost or EXP lost, thats suffering. You're making me do something that adds NOTHING enjoyable to the game. Most people prefer a sting. A slap to tell them they did it wrong...GO Try again! They don't enjoy a kick in the balls like certain people do=) And yes, people who played EQ enjoyed getting kicked in the nads repeatedly;)
How am I forcing you to do anything when playing an MMO is your choice? Games like WoW, WAR, AoC, EQ2, and VG, that have no death penalty, bore me very quickly because they feel more like an FPS, you die, respawn, die, respawn....over and over with no penalty but guess what? No one forces me to play those games so I quit. Im not asking Blizzard, Mythic, Funcom and SOE to change games that have been out for years. I do hope that those game companies see that some people do still like the thrill of taking risks and implement death penalties in future releases. If they do make a new game with a death penalty...it will be your choice to play it.
Please stop with the exaggerations already. Kick in the nads? Who here is suggesting 30 minute corpse runs? Who is asking for an hour grind for gold and exp? You and the permadeath guys are using extremes that no one else has asked for.
All the people who want EQ again, which there are a vocal bunch. Long corpse runs, grinding for EXP. That was EQ. WHen people use EQ as an example of the ways things should still be, thats what I';m refering to. Besides, its not like you can keep wiping on a dungeon or boss over and over and eventually win. You'll NEVER win, esspecially with respawns.
I agree, WAR's penalty was a joke. But WOW's is perfect or at least was in vanilla before gold was being dropped from the sky;)
Definitely agree there, Josher.
Although I think it was perfect for non-raiding, and wasn't quite ideal for raiding.
For raiding, there are a few viable ways to do death penalty:
A. Have no gold cost, because the "cost" of dying is not getting loot and bosses are balanced to be hard enough to wipe your group a bunch. This is less than ideal because it means the majority of gameplay revolves around.
B. Expensive gold cost, but let raids be a reasonably good source of gold. "Alright we've wiped a few times on Facerender and that's cost us a lot of gold. Let's go to the Gold Slime Wing and kill those mobs and bosses for a while to recoup our losses."
C. Have no gold cost, instant respawn with full raid buffs upon raid wipe, but reset all the trash mobs. So raids would play out like oldschool games (like Gradius or Control) where to get the reward you have to make it all the way through each wing without wiping. A few deaths? No prob, you can rez people. A wipe? You start over.
I've pushed idea (C) for a while, as it's raiding without excessive downtime (which is pure tedium.) Yet it still retains serious penalties for dying (you don't get the loot and you have to play the game more to get back where you were.) But that's the key difference, you play the game. Current death in raids means a lot of running back and rebuffing/etc. That isn't playing the game. The game has basically told them, "You died so now you don't get to play for 8-15 minutes."
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Yes after reading your post I think I will kill myself.
How am I forcing my playstyle on someone else? We were having a friendly discussion before you started expressing your extremist ideas. /wrists
You're forcing it on others by asking developers to make the penalties harsher again . Maybe not you specifically but when people say, I WANT A HARSHER DEATH PENALTY, they don't really mean I...they mean EVERYONE. If they only wanted it for themselves, they could impose it on themselves very easily, but thats NOT what they want. They want everyone to share in their suffering and thats what a harsh penalty is...suffering.
If I have to run a 1/2 hr back to where I was, thats suffering. If I have to grind for an hour to recoup the gold lost or EXP lost, thats suffering. You're making me do something that adds NOTHING enjoyable to the game. Most people prefer a sting. A slap to tell them they did it wrong...GO Try again! They don't enjoy a kick in the balls like certain people do=) And yes, people who played EQ enjoyed getting kicked in the nads repeatedly;)
HTFU.
Of course the penalties have to apply to everyone, and they shouldn't be designed in every game to cater to the lowest common denominator.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you think WoW is perfect that is great, I hope you enjoy it. I played it for a while myself but the lack of risk vs free epics for showing up mentality doesnt keep some of us entertained for long. I have friends who absolutely love it. They have 10 character slots with lvl 80s all decked out in purple epics and beg Blizzard for more slots so they can keep getting those epics. Im really happy they enjoy that playstyle, but I think it would be nice to have a modern MMO for those of us like risk AND reward.
I dont mind you having your playstyle, what is so threatening to you about mine?
Yes after reading your post I think I will kill myself.
How am I forcing my playstyle on someone else? We were having a friendly discussion before you started expressing your extremist ideas. /wrists
You're forcing it on others by asking developers to make the penalties harsher again . Maybe not you specifically but when people say, I WANT A HARSHER DEATH PENALTY, they don't really mean I...they mean EVERYONE. If they only wanted it for themselves, they could impose it on themselves very easily, but thats NOT what they want. They want everyone to share in their suffering and thats what a harsh penalty is...suffering.
If I have to run a 1/2 hr back to where I was, thats suffering. If I have to grind for an hour to recoup the gold lost or EXP lost, thats suffering. You're making me do something that adds NOTHING enjoyable to the game. Most people prefer a sting. A slap to tell them they did it wrong...GO Try again! They don't enjoy a kick in the balls like certain people do=) And yes, people who played EQ enjoyed getting kicked in the nads repeatedly;)
I just had to respond to this asshat discussion. Of course you have to make death penalties the same for everyone in most of todays games. Even if you by design want to make it a harsh one. The reason for this being that while I can of course be an advocate of perma death f. ex. and there fore delete my char if I die in for instance WoW, how much fun is this when I meet a guy of the enemy faction who will not delete his character if I kill him in battle ?
The implications if you apply rules only to yourself are different opposed to if you apply them to everyone. If the WoW guy lives by different rules, he can try and gank me over and over again until he finally succeeds and I delete my char. Now if he was forced to delete his char if he lost the battle, things would fare differently. Basicly you are saying that if I think that loosing a pawn in competitive chess tournaments has too little penalty in the game of chess, I should concede from every tournament I play in as soon as I loose a pawn instead of advocating for a change in game rules ? (or a whole new game).
Also, there exists people who want permadeath for themselves, but they just dont exist in games such as WoW due to the nature of these games. Dungeons and Dragons Online for instance has pernadeath guilds. If you are in one of these guilds, you are expected to delete your character if you die. The reason why it works to apply this rule to yourself in this game, is because it is basicly a dungeoncrawling game where you dont battle other players, and get to choose who you group with for said dungeons. Meaning that you will get to choose to play with people who play by the same ruleset as you do. You have the option of avoiding to do a dungeon with an idiot who will wipe your group because he doesnt care about dying, just by grouping only with your guildies who play permadeath rules.
In conclusion, you cant have people being able to affect other peoples characters on the basis of different rules. Just like playing chess isnt fun if I have to concede cus I loose a pawn whereas the other guy only loose when he is checkmate.
I hope new mmorpg just make different server with different type of death penalty.
That way people can choose which ever server type they want to play. Everyone is happy.
If you think WoW is perfect that is great, I hope you enjoy it. I played it for a while myself but the lack of risk vs free epics for showing up mentality doesnt keep some of us entertained for long. I have friends who absolutely love it. They have 10 character slots with lvl 80s all decked out in purple epics and beg Blizzard for more slots so they can keep getting those epics. Im really happy they enjoy that playstyle, but I think it would be nice to have a modern MMO for those of us like risk AND reward.
I dont mind you having your playstyle, what is so threatening to you about mine?
Nothing. And you can go play Darkfall or Eve happily while i play wow.
Although since it is a public forum, i have as much right to point out that I like the WOW style (difficult but NOT grindy with unnecessarily harsh death penalty) as you point out what style you like.
Plus, we are also perfectly within our prerogative to discuss which style is more popular.