Originally posted by rav3n2 I am not guessing, a PUG group wipes alot more than an organized guild group this is a FACT, maybe you have never been in a guild that played with high organization, well I have for 4 years until recently, its a totally different dynamic, when pull after pull you have 5-6 ppl die and it doesnt matter you rez them at the end of the pack and keep going, you cant really deny this, its what happens, and its usually someone that doesnt care about a particular mechanic and keeps dieing and it doesnt matter there is really no motivation for him to do it right, he wont loose anything and wether no one dies until the end of the instance or 6 ppl die every pull you will still make it, its the "head basher" MMOs, this is not getting people to try it out, its hand helding ppl and encouraging them that being stupid pays off anyway, its telling ppl that are smart and have the organization that it doesnt matter that they can play the same way and win.
If you have 5-6 people die each pull and you can still beat the instance then your group is obviously too powerfull for the content and really should be doing something more challenging. If your doing content that is a real challenge for your group then you cannot afford a single death and those not pulling their weight will be replaced if you want to beat it.
Further, people don't really care if someone dies because of their own stupidity. People care a lot if they themselves die because of someone else's stupidity. People who get others killed, get kicked from groups.
My point still stands, wether you play smartly or recklessly you will still win, I dunno about you but to me this completely breaks the whole feeling of accomplishment, I remember at some point in MMOs when it was meaningful to do something, when you had to prepare for something rather than throw yourself at it recklessly, when there was a clear distinction in those that have had a longer gaming journey than you did, nowadays in games like WoW it doesnt matter if you played for 4 years or if you played for 6 months you accomplish the same because ppl have nothing to loose, there is no moral compass and that is shown clearly in the WoW community nowadays.
This is about GAMES... They are supposed to be FUN and ENTERTAINING. If one is looking for some cosmic significance to justify ones time investment, I strongly suspect that one needs to find another hobby
Sure, games can be competitive, thats their appeal to some. But attempting to tie this all in to concepts like "moral compass" does a dis service to the under laying reality, as well as opening one up to various ideological questions. WoW is a game, its fun and entertaining to milions and millions of people. It doesn't need to be more than a game. People who don't care for the type of theme park style that WoW uses, should pick some other game for their fun and entertainment.
Agreed to some extent, regarding the "moral compass" yeah its a game BUT the rudeness and lack of education you see in some of the ppl in these games I just cannot believe ppl are actually that rude when they are with their peers IRL, part of this is ppl being only motivated by greed.
Originally posted by rav3n2 Agreed to some extent, regarding the "moral compass" yeah its a game BUT the rudeness and lack of education you see in some of the ppl in these games I just cannot believe ppl are actually that rude when they are with their peers IRL, part of this is ppl being only motivated by greed.
However, you really cannot blame the lack of death penalties for any 'moral deficiencies' of the player base. Just look at EVE. It has death penalties galore and some of the most immoral players I have encountered.
Originally posted by rav3n2 I am not guessing, a PUG group wipes alot more than an organized guild group this is a FACT, maybe you have never been in a guild that played with high organization, well I have for 4 years until recently, its a totally different dynamic, when pull after pull you have 5-6 ppl die and it doesnt matter you rez them at the end of the pack and keep going, you cant really deny this, its what happens, and its usually someone that doesnt care about a particular mechanic and keeps dieing and it doesnt matter there is really no motivation for him to do it right, he wont loose anything and wether no one dies until the end of the instance or 6 ppl die every pull you will still make it, its the "head basher" MMOs, this is not getting people to try it out, its hand helding ppl and encouraging them that being stupid pays off anyway, its telling ppl that are smart and have the organization that it doesnt matter that they can play the same way and win.
If you have 5-6 people die each pull and you can still beat the instance then your group is obviously too powerfull for the content and really should be doing something more challenging. If your doing content that is a real challenge for your group then you cannot afford a single death and those not pulling their weight will be replaced if you want to beat it.
Further, people don't really care if someone dies because of their own stupidity. People care a lot if they themselves die because of someone else's stupidity. People who get others killed, get kicked from groups.
My point still stands, wether you play smartly or recklessly you will still win, I dunno about you but to me this completely breaks the whole feeling of accomplishment, I remember at some point in MMOs when it was meaningful to do something, when you had to prepare for something rather than throw yourself at it recklessly, when there was a clear distinction in those that have had a longer gaming journey than you did, nowadays in games like WoW it doesnt matter if you played for 4 years or if you played for 6 months you accomplish the same because ppl have nothing to loose, there is no moral compass and that is shown clearly in the WoW community nowadays.
This is about GAMES... They are supposed to be FUN and ENTERTAINING. If one is looking for some cosmic significance to justify ones time investment, I strongly suspect that one needs to find another hobby
Sure, games can be competitive, thats their appeal to some. But attempting to tie this all in to concepts like "moral compass" does a dis service to the under laying reality, as well as opening one up to various ideological questions. WoW is a game, its fun and entertaining to milions and millions of people. It doesn't need to be more than a game. People who don't care for the type of theme park style that WoW uses, should pick some other game for their fun and entertainment.
That's just it though, many people find WoW to be boring because it's too easy / puts em to sleep / as in no longer being fun and entertaining. It really doesn't need to be read into more than that, risk is fun for many people. The decline of death penalty, the title of the thread, I believe stems from all the companies out there trying to copy WoW without realizing that low risk is not for everyone. People on this board scream words like niche and minority day in and day out, but until something decent comes out with a good measure of risk (and I'm not talking DF or MO), that argument is based on pure speculation.
Originally posted by rav3n2 I am not guessing, a PUG group wipes alot more than an organized guild group this is a FACT, maybe you have never been in a guild that played with high organization, well I have for 4 years until recently, its a totally different dynamic, when pull after pull you have 5-6 ppl die and it doesnt matter you rez them at the end of the pack and keep going, you cant really deny this, its what happens, and its usually someone that doesnt care about a particular mechanic and keeps dieing and it doesnt matter there is really no motivation for him to do it right, he wont loose anything and wether no one dies until the end of the instance or 6 ppl die every pull you will still make it, its the "head basher" MMOs, this is not getting people to try it out, its hand helding ppl and encouraging them that being stupid pays off anyway, its telling ppl that are smart and have the organization that it doesnt matter that they can play the same way and win.
If you have 5-6 people die each pull and you can still beat the instance then your group is obviously too powerfull for the content and really should be doing something more challenging. If your doing content that is a real challenge for your group then you cannot afford a single death and those not pulling their weight will be replaced if you want to beat it.
Further, people don't really care if someone dies because of their own stupidity. People care a lot if they themselves die because of someone else's stupidity. People who get others killed, get kicked from groups.
My point still stands, wether you play smartly or recklessly you will still win, I dunno about you but to me this completely breaks the whole feeling of accomplishment, I remember at some point in MMOs when it was meaningful to do something, when you had to prepare for something rather than throw yourself at it recklessly, when there was a clear distinction in those that have had a longer gaming journey than you did, nowadays in games like WoW it doesnt matter if you played for 4 years or if you played for 6 months you accomplish the same because ppl have nothing to loose, there is no moral compass and that is shown clearly in the WoW community nowadays.
This is about GAMES... They are supposed to be FUN and ENTERTAINING. If one is looking for some cosmic significance to justify ones time investment, I strongly suspect that one needs to find another hobby
Sure, games can be competitive, thats their appeal to some. But attempting to tie this all in to concepts like "moral compass" does a dis service to the under laying reality, as well as opening one up to various ideological questions. WoW is a game, its fun and entertaining to milions and millions of people. It doesn't need to be more than a game. People who don't care for the type of theme park style that WoW uses, should pick some other game for their fun and entertainment.
Agreed to some extent, regarding the "moral compass" yeah its a game BUT the rudeness and lack of education you see in some of the ppl in these games I just cannot believe ppl are actually that rude when they are with their peers IRL, part of this is ppl being only motivated by greed.
So, what is this "greed" you speak of? Can you define it objectively? Part of the problem is more thoughtlessness than malice. Far too many people forget that they are dealing with other people, not just some electronic figment of the Dev's imagination.
Games cannot be fun and entertaining without challenge. Death Penalties are a form of this challenge.
Only *A* form of them. They are not necessary and sufficient. In many cases they are a liability.
Yes "a form". You make it sound like all forms of death penalty should be abolished. This is wrong. While you may not like it, you do not need to play games that have it. Some players, me included, find that this mechanic adds value to the gameplay. The key here is to have different games offering different things and not all follow the same model.
That's just it though, many people find WoW to be boring because it's too easy / puts em to sleep / as in no longer being fun and entertaining. It really doesn't need to be read into more than that, risk is fun for many people. The decline of death penalty, the title of the thread, I believe stems from all the companies out there trying to copy WoW without realizing that low risk is not for everyone. People on this board scream words like niche and minority day in and day out, but until something decent comes out with a good measure of risk (and I'm not talking DF or MO), that argument is based on pure speculation.
I would say the success of WOW is good indirect evidence that people don't like harsh penalties. Look at how much more successful WOW is, compared to EQ.
Plus, people on this bbs does not matter. We have .. what .. a few hundred people here who post? That is less than 0.01 percent of WOW's population, not to mention the total MMO population.
Games cannot be fun and entertaining without challenge. Death Penalties are a form of this challenge.
Only *A* form of them. They are not necessary and sufficient. In many cases they are a liability.
Yes "a form". You make it sound like all forms of death penalty should be abolished. This is wrong. While you may not like it, you do not need to play games that have it. Some players, me included, find that this mechanic adds value to the gameplay. The key here is to have different games offering different things and not all follow the same model.
Think back. Have I EVER advocated that the death penalth be abolished in all games? No. I have simply stated that I will not play games that have it. There is a market for both. But obviously more of a market for those that lack such harsh penalties, as demonstrated by the market trend lines I've commented upon.
That's just it though, many people find WoW to be boring because it's too easy / puts em to sleep / as in no longer being fun and entertaining. It really doesn't need to be read into more than that, risk is fun for many people. The decline of death penalty, the title of the thread, I believe stems from all the companies out there trying to copy WoW without realizing that low risk is not for everyone. People on this board scream words like niche and minority day in and day out, but until something decent comes out with a good measure of risk (and I'm not talking DF or MO), that argument is based on pure speculation.
I would say the success of WOW is good indirect evidence that people don't like harsh penalties. Look at how much more successful WOW is, compared to EQ.
Plus, people on this bbs does not matter. We have .. what .. a few hundred people here who post? That is less than 0.01 percent of WOW's population, not to mention the total MMO population.
BBS? Now there is a phrase I've not heard in a long, long time. Sites such as MMORPG have tens of thousands of members, but its mainly a few hundred that are active at any given time. MMORPG Tenton hammer and Massively are the ones I normally use. They are slowly taking the place of the gaming magazines that used to come out once a month. As time passes they will become more influential.
Originally posted by heremypet That's just it though, many people find WoW to be boring because it's too easy / puts em to sleep / as in no longer being fun and entertaining. It really doesn't need to be read into more than that, risk is fun for many people. The decline of death penalty, the title of the thread, I believe stems from all the companies out there trying to copy WoW without realizing that low risk is not for everyone. People on this board scream words like niche and minority day in and day out, but until something decent comes out with a good measure of risk (and I'm not talking DF or MO), that argument is based on pure speculation.
The "too easy" comments primarily refer to the challenge of WOW, not the death penalty. And yes, WOW's challenge structure is wacky nowadays (because no challenging content exists apart from raids on hard mode, and that requires suffering through all the downsides of raiding.)
Copying WOW and failing is more a matter of not knowing how to make a good game. One of the cornerstones of WOW's success is the combat/class design. I have yet to find an MMORPG out there with more interesting combat/class design, where abilities carry strong properties and have intelligent cooldowns set on them. I've never found a WOW "copy" that managed to get anywhere close to the depth of WOW's combat system.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by heremypet That's just it though, many people find WoW to be boring because it's too easy / puts em to sleep / as in no longer being fun and entertaining. It really doesn't need to be read into more than that, risk is fun for many people. The decline of death penalty, the title of the thread, I believe stems from all the companies out there trying to copy WoW without realizing that low risk is not for everyone. People on this board scream words like niche and minority day in and day out, but until something decent comes out with a good measure of risk (and I'm not talking DF or MO), that argument is based on pure speculation.
The "too easy" comments primarily refer to the challenge of WOW, not the death penalty. And yes, WOW's challenge structure is wacky nowadays (because no challenging content exists apart from raids on hard mode, and that requires suffering through all the downsides of raiding.)
You can also try soloing some of the group quests and dungeons. That is challenging.
This is totally stupid. You measure you success by how tough the challenge is, not by how much meaningless penalty after a failure.
Then by your logic, jumping a distance of 12 feet on a sidewalk, and jumping 12 feet between rail cars on a moving train are the same. The challenge is identical. But tell me, would your preparations for these two feats also be the same? What about the spectators, would they react the same? Would you're pulse be the same while you're jumping? Would you take the same amount of pride in either situation? No, the only thing that is the same is the challenge, just about everything else is different.
I assume you play FPS where you respawn immediately after dying, what's the point? I would prefer CS style FPS where when you die you wait until the end of the match. You know it's funny how that style of FPS makes people play smarter, now why is that? Doesn't sound "totally stupid" to me.
Either your are deliberately being obtuse or you don't get it. As Nariusseldon stated you measure success by how tough the challenge is and a moving target is more challenging than a stationary target, therefore it is more challenging. Because it is more challenging it requires more preparation and the spectators would react different.
Yes they have different penalites. But the challenge is in the event, not what happens after the event.
Very simple to grasp.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
If you have 5-6 people die each pull and you can still beat the instance then your group is obviously too powerfull for the content and really should be doing something more challenging. If your doing content that is a real challenge for your group then you cannot afford a single death and those not pulling their weight will be replaced if you want to beat it.
Further, people don't really care if someone dies because of their own stupidity. People care a lot if they themselves die because of someone else's stupidity. People who get others killed, get kicked from groups.
My point still stands, wether you play smartly or recklessly you will still win, I dunno about you but to me this completely breaks the whole feeling of accomplishment, I remember at some point in MMOs when it was meaningful to do something, when you had to prepare for something rather than throw yourself at it recklessly, when there was a clear distinction in those that have had a longer gaming journey than you did, nowadays in games like WoW it doesnt matter if you played for 4 years or if you played for 6 months you accomplish the same because ppl have nothing to loose, there is no moral compass and that is shown clearly in the WoW community nowadays.
This is about GAMES... They are supposed to be FUN and ENTERTAINING. If one is looking for some cosmic significance to justify ones time investment, I strongly suspect that one needs to find another hobby
Sure, games can be competitive, thats their appeal to some. But attempting to tie this all in to concepts like "moral compass" does a dis service to the under laying reality, as well as opening one up to various ideological questions. WoW is a game, its fun and entertaining to milions and millions of people. It doesn't need to be more than a game. People who don't care for the type of theme park style that WoW uses, should pick some other game for their fun and entertainment.
Agreed to some extent, regarding the "moral compass" yeah its a game BUT the rudeness and lack of education you see in some of the ppl in these games I just cannot believe ppl are actually that rude when they are with their peers IRL, part of this is ppl being only motivated by greed.
However, you really cannot blame the lack of death penalties for any 'moral deficiencies' of the player base. Just look at EVE. It has death penalties galore and some of the most immoral players I have encountered.
If you have 5-6 people die each pull and you can still beat the instance then your group is obviously too powerfull for the content and really should be doing something more challenging. If your doing content that is a real challenge for your group then you cannot afford a single death and those not pulling their weight will be replaced if you want to beat it.
Further, people don't really care if someone dies because of their own stupidity. People care a lot if they themselves die because of someone else's stupidity. People who get others killed, get kicked from groups.
My point still stands, wether you play smartly or recklessly you will still win, I dunno about you but to me this completely breaks the whole feeling of accomplishment, I remember at some point in MMOs when it was meaningful to do something, when you had to prepare for something rather than throw yourself at it recklessly, when there was a clear distinction in those that have had a longer gaming journey than you did, nowadays in games like WoW it doesnt matter if you played for 4 years or if you played for 6 months you accomplish the same because ppl have nothing to loose, there is no moral compass and that is shown clearly in the WoW community nowadays.
This is about GAMES... They are supposed to be FUN and ENTERTAINING. If one is looking for some cosmic significance to justify ones time investment, I strongly suspect that one needs to find another hobby
Sure, games can be competitive, thats their appeal to some. But attempting to tie this all in to concepts like "moral compass" does a dis service to the under laying reality, as well as opening one up to various ideological questions. WoW is a game, its fun and entertaining to milions and millions of people. It doesn't need to be more than a game. People who don't care for the type of theme park style that WoW uses, should pick some other game for their fun and entertainment.
That's just it though, many people find WoW to be boring because it's too easy / puts em to sleep / as in no longer being fun and entertaining. It really doesn't need to be read into more than that, risk is fun for many people. The decline of death penalty, the title of the thread, I believe stems from all the companies out there trying to copy WoW without realizing that low risk is not for everyone. People on this board scream words like niche and minority day in and day out, but until something decent comes out with a good measure of risk (and I'm not talking DF or MO), that argument is based on pure speculation.
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
If you have 5-6 people die each pull and you can still beat the instance then your group is obviously too powerfull for the content and really should be doing something more challenging. If your doing content that is a real challenge for your group then you cannot afford a single death and those not pulling their weight will be replaced if you want to beat it.
Further, people don't really care if someone dies because of their own stupidity. People care a lot if they themselves die because of someone else's stupidity. People who get others killed, get kicked from groups.
My point still stands, wether you play smartly or recklessly you will still win, I dunno about you but to me this completely breaks the whole feeling of accomplishment, I remember at some point in MMOs when it was meaningful to do something, when you had to prepare for something rather than throw yourself at it recklessly, when there was a clear distinction in those that have had a longer gaming journey than you did, nowadays in games like WoW it doesnt matter if you played for 4 years or if you played for 6 months you accomplish the same because ppl have nothing to loose, there is no moral compass and that is shown clearly in the WoW community nowadays.
This is about GAMES... They are supposed to be FUN and ENTERTAINING. If one is looking for some cosmic significance to justify ones time investment, I strongly suspect that one needs to find another hobby
Sure, games can be competitive, thats their appeal to some. But attempting to tie this all in to concepts like "moral compass" does a dis service to the under laying reality, as well as opening one up to various ideological questions. WoW is a game, its fun and entertaining to milions and millions of people. It doesn't need to be more than a game. People who don't care for the type of theme park style that WoW uses, should pick some other game for their fun and entertainment.
Agreed to some extent, regarding the "moral compass" yeah its a game BUT the rudeness and lack of education you see in some of the ppl in these games I just cannot believe ppl are actually that rude when they are with their peers IRL, part of this is ppl being only motivated by greed.
So, what is this "greed" you speak of? Can you define it objectively? Part of the problem is more thoughtlessness than malice. Far too many people forget that they are dealing with other people, not just some electronic figment of the Dev's imagination.
Only *A* form of them. They are not necessary and sufficient. In many cases they are a liability.
Yes "a form". You make it sound like all forms of death penalty should be abolished. This is wrong. While you may not like it, you do not need to play games that have it. Some players, me included, find that this mechanic adds value to the gameplay. The key here is to have different games offering different things and not all follow the same model.
I would say the success of WOW is good indirect evidence that people don't like harsh penalties. Look at how much more successful WOW is, compared to EQ.
Plus, people on this bbs does not matter. We have .. what .. a few hundred people here who post? That is less than 0.01 percent of WOW's population, not to mention the total MMO population.
Only *A* form of them. They are not necessary and sufficient. In many cases they are a liability.
Yes "a form". You make it sound like all forms of death penalty should be abolished. This is wrong. While you may not like it, you do not need to play games that have it. Some players, me included, find that this mechanic adds value to the gameplay. The key here is to have different games offering different things and not all follow the same model.
Think back. Have I EVER advocated that the death penalth be abolished in all games? No. I have simply stated that I will not play games that have it. There is a market for both. But obviously more of a market for those that lack such harsh penalties, as demonstrated by the market trend lines I've commented upon.
I would say the success of WOW is good indirect evidence that people don't like harsh penalties. Look at how much more successful WOW is, compared to EQ.
Plus, people on this bbs does not matter. We have .. what .. a few hundred people here who post? That is less than 0.01 percent of WOW's population, not to mention the total MMO population.
BBS? Now there is a phrase I've not heard in a long, long time. Sites such as MMORPG have tens of thousands of members, but its mainly a few hundred that are active at any given time. MMORPG Tenton hammer and Massively are the ones I normally use. They are slowly taking the place of the gaming magazines that used to come out once a month. As time passes they will become more influential.
The "too easy" comments primarily refer to the challenge of WOW, not the death penalty. And yes, WOW's challenge structure is wacky nowadays (because no challenging content exists apart from raids on hard mode, and that requires suffering through all the downsides of raiding.)
Copying WOW and failing is more a matter of not knowing how to make a good game. One of the cornerstones of WOW's success is the combat/class design. I have yet to find an MMORPG out there with more interesting combat/class design, where abilities carry strong properties and have intelligent cooldowns set on them. I've never found a WOW "copy" that managed to get anywhere close to the depth of WOW's combat system.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The "too easy" comments primarily refer to the challenge of WOW, not the death penalty. And yes, WOW's challenge structure is wacky nowadays (because no challenging content exists apart from raids on hard mode, and that requires suffering through all the downsides of raiding.)
You can also try soloing some of the group quests and dungeons. That is challenging.
300,000 players is an ENOURMOUS amount!
That is 4.5 million a month at $15/month subscription.
54 million a year...
Why you think that is "niche" is beyond me. That is amazing.
Either your are deliberately being obtuse or you don't get it. As Nariusseldon stated you measure success by how tough the challenge is and a moving target is more challenging than a stationary target, therefore it is more challenging. Because it is more challenging it requires more preparation and the spectators would react different.
Yes they have different penalites. But the challenge is in the event, not what happens after the event.
Very simple to grasp.
Venge