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Rooster Rants: Are You a Force Groupie or Darth Soloer?
RoosterNash
Member Posts: 283
The following discussion regards the futile debate between advocates of solo play and advocates of forced grouping. It takes place in a galaxy far, far away... not really...
Why are people still concerned with soloing vs grouping? TOR's implementing BOTH, while promoting grouping, so if you're a grouper you can stop complaining with that announcement. Soloers... I don't see why any one who prefers a single player option in an MMO would have any reason to complain, so I'm sure this is mainly groupies that are ranting about how unfair it is, and the single player is all like, "Just grow up." I mean, I'm right, right? The question is purely rhetorical, but feel free to answer if you feel you must oblige.
Maybe it's the fact that I'm a mixture of both groupie and single player (or that I see a problem resolved - case closed), but I find it perturbing that everyone is devoting ANY time to such a futile topic. While I'm a huge advocate of teamwork and strategy, I still enjoy solo content on a fairly even basis. Some people discourage the idea of soloing in an MMO, but what's the point? To each their own, yeah? Those who advocate single player MMOing are just as ridiculous though. Don't get me wrong.
BioWare giving us the option to make a choice; that's ultimately as MMO as you can get, and it works for both parties and their personal agendas for the game. Shake hands, hold hands, sing "Kumbaya" while standing around a virtual camp fire in the middle of a forest filled with zombies.
I propose that since this issue is resolved, let's move forward and enjoy discussions that could potentially HELP encourage the developers to create the best content. Let us look forward.
... The End... or is it?
THE Rooster Nash
Comments
Absolutely. Well said OP. I'm a bit of both too... and honestly you don't really want to force me to group when I am in one of my Darth Soloer moods.
I like to have it both ways. I really hate when I'm forced to group in order to accomplish small scale tasks. I like grouping when it makes sense and when it is called for, but I think I would lean more towards solo play. I'm just hoping for a balance. I really don't want to be forced to constantly group.
And you shouldn't be. No one should ever have to worry about "LFG". I haven't heard much in the way of companion characters lately, but that sounds like a reasonable option to grouping.
It is this that brings many "groupies" to question what will become of their existence, but the concern is moot. Just because anyone can - and many WILL - choose to use their companion characters doesn't mean that you can't continue to group up with your own friends. Now, if you're a groupie who doesn't HAVE friends or guildmates to enjoy the aspect with, then you're at a loss if you wish to argue the point.
I'm putting a lot of stock into this game being amazing, but as I've said many times before, I'm a huge fan of BioWare so I'm partial to the subject of positivity within the TOR forums.
Also, if you've already pre-determined that you not only don't like ANYTHING about the game, but you are NOT going to subscribe at all, then don't post on the SWTOR forum. No one really cares for your comments here.
THE Rooster Nash
If you like grouping you don't generally like it because you CAN group.
For example, you can solo the quest or mob spawn. Or you CAN group and do the quest or mob spawn for the same result.
I don't know of any group advocates that think this is a good grouping game.
What groupers generally like is working in a team that requires coordination to overcome a challenge.
Getting in a group to mow down solo content is not a challenge.
Getting in a group to get the same reward as you could get solo is not a challenge.
I don't know why you think just because you CAN group this makes a good grouping game?
That doesnt' mean the game won't be fun. Solo games are lots of fun and I like to play those as well as good grouping games.
There is no way to make both viable at the same time. TOR will be a solo game like every MMO before it and after WoW. Only way to make grouping viable is to step on to soloer's toes, and would Bioware do that? No, because they care about the money. And money comes from the soloers. So groupers have to deal with it once again.
I don't care much though, but this talk about happy medium sunshine and rainbows isn't going to work out in reality.
There is no way to make both viable at the same time. TOR will be a solo game like every MMO before it and after WoW. Only way to make grouping viable is to step on to soloer's toes, and would Bioware do that? No, because they care about the money. And money comes from the soloers. So groupers have to deal with it once again.
I don't care much though, but this talk about happy medium sunshine and rainbows isn't going to work out in reality.
Exactly.
Imagine if it were the opposite. "Bioware has said soloing will be in the game. You can solo through the entire game, but it will take you roughly 10x the amount of playing time as grouping. There! Now that soloing is in the game soloers can quit complaining!"
Really no different than the post by RooserNash.
"Bioware has said you can solo the entire game, but if you want to you can form a group! There, now all the groupers will be happy!"
WTF??!!
If you like grouping you don't generally like it because you CAN group.
For example, you can solo the quest or mob spawn. Or you CAN group and do the quest or mob spawn for the same result.
I don't know of any group advocates that think this is a good grouping game.
What groupers generally like is working in a team that requires coordination to overcome a challenge.
Getting in a group to mow down solo content is not a challenge.
Getting in a group to get the same reward as you could get solo is not a challenge.
I don't know why you think just because you CAN group this makes a good grouping game?
That doesnt' mean the game won't be fun. Solo games are lots of fun and I like to play those as well as good grouping games.
I've heard in a few places that grouping will scale mobs depending on group size. I'm really not sure what all comes with it, I'm assuming better drops, better XP, maybe advanced AI. I agree with you though, I want grouping to have a meaning, more so then soloing. I really want some form of challenge. Something I have not found in a MMO for a good while, single player RPGs or a FPS in multiplayer seem to be more difficult then MMOs these days.
I as well like having the option of both. There are times when I just plain don't feel like dealing with the drama that tends to come with grouping eg: arguing over loot,constant dropping of members, people who are virtual chatterboxes, some idiot drawing agro from a mob and kills the entire group etc. etc.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
If you like grouping you don't generally like it because you CAN group.
Hmm... you don't say... I generally like it for several reasons, "can" being one of them.
For example, you can solo the quest or mob spawn. Or you CAN group and do the quest or mob spawn for the same result.
Something to do with mowing a lawn, right? I hate mowing. Look man, I'll give you 100 bucks to mow my front lawn. But I tell you what, if you decide that... you know what, nevermind. This other guy just offered to mow it for 200 bucks. I think I'll pay him instead.
I don't know of any group advocates that think this is a good grouping game.
Gosh, it's hard to say since I haven't even had a chance to play the game yet. I'd like to think that I'm going to enjoy it, and I'm an advocate of grouping.
What groupers generally like is working in a team that requires coordination to overcome a challenge.
Preaching to the choir.
Getting in a group to mow down solo content is not a challenge.
I agree, but it sure makes things move faster! I wouldn't do it myself if it lacked any modifier to xp contribution.
Getting in a group to get the same reward as you could get solo is not a challenge.
Speculation as you haven't even played the game to determine any level of challenge.
I don't know why you think just because you CAN group this makes a good grouping game?
I'm sorry, what was the question?
That doesnt' mean the game won't be fun. Solo games are lots of fun and I like to play those as well as good grouping games.
Finally, we come to an understanding. Why didn't you just say your last sentence first. It would have saved me some time.
My apologies. I didn't realize you have had a chance to play the game. How is it? I can't believe that they haven't implemented anything remotely resembling challenging content, OR that they allowed for an open beta. [It rhymes with marcasm.]
I can't tell you how many times I've read practically a copy and paste of everything you just said, but I think I know why I've read it; you're the one copy/pasting it. I know I might sound as if I'm coming off as a mean person right now, but I assure you I'm not. I'm simply making a point (not trying).
You haven't played the game, so please folks, stop assuming ignorantly that BioWare is an amatuer developer. If they aren't going to make the content challenging, then why would you even need a companion or two? While I'm not going to go digging around for a reference link to this, they HAVE said that they're PROMOTING grouping, but you can go solo.
I don't know why you think that just because they SAY you can go solo, they're taking away from the groupie's experience. Remember folks, that while I am an advocate of grouping (obviously for the challenge), I'm also an advocate of public displays of affection, which may warrant complete dismissal of anything I might say.
------EDITTED FOR CLARITY--------------------------------
THE Rooster Nash
There is no way to make both viable at the same time. TOR will be a solo game like every MMO before it and after WoW. Only way to make grouping viable is to step on to soloer's toes, and would Bioware do that? No, because they care about the money. And money comes from the soloers. So groupers have to deal with it once again.
I don't care much though, but this talk about happy medium sunshine and rainbows isn't going to work out in reality.
Exactly.
Imagine if it were the opposite. "Bioware has said soloing will be in the game. You can solo through the entire game, but it will take you roughly 10x the amount of playing time as grouping. There! Now that soloing is in the game soloers can quit complaining!"
Really no different than the post by RooserNash.
"Bioware has said you can solo the entire game, but if you want to you can form a group! There, now all the groupers will be happy!"
WTF??!!
Neither of you are basing your comments on facts but primarily speculation.
For those of you who remain in the dark about the complexities of BioWare's software and engines, feel free to read the following:
http://www.informationweek.com/news/internet/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=199902853
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Bio-Ware-licenses-Hero-Engine-for-MMO-32429.shtml
They've only released so many details about this game. Really, to put a stranglehold on what's coming next or what's going to fail - while intriguing and taken with a salty grain - is nothing more than petty blathering. You AREN'T sure of what's going to come with it, but I can assure you (nah, it's really just speculation) that they will release group-based content that will provide for a more enjoyable game for all of us. YEAH!!! Isn't that awesome?
Now, if you stick to the main story, I imagine they'll make it easy, but I've heard or read (can't remember, but I stick to this everyday so cut me some slack - or not) from some part of the BioWare development team that there will be GROUP-BASED content within the game. I can not, for one, see them doing so with each player's main story, but that is HARDLY the only thing left to do in the game (also something I've heard the team say - I believe it was Daniel Erickson).
We can continue to go back and forth playing "he said, she said" until the release date, but until that time (or at least open beta), we really have nothing more than hear-say to go on.
With that said, I propose a truce between soloers and groupies. Let us unify under one banner; a banner of encouragement and loyalty to what will soon be the greatest MMO to ever grace the genre... or my name isn't Roos"T"er Nash. Indeed, my name contains a T. Cock-a-doodle-doo.
THE Rooster Nash
If you like grouping you don't generally like it because you CAN group.
For example, you can solo the quest or mob spawn. Or you CAN group and do the quest or mob spawn for the same result.
I don't know of any group advocates that think this is a good grouping game.
What groupers generally like is working in a team that requires coordination to overcome a challenge.
Getting in a group to mow down solo content is not a challenge.
Getting in a group to get the same reward as you could get solo is not a challenge.
I don't know why you think just because you CAN group this makes a good grouping game?
That doesnt' mean the game won't be fun. Solo games are lots of fun and I like to play those as well as good grouping games.
I've heard in a few places that grouping will scale mobs depending on group size. I'm really not sure what all comes with it, I'm assuming better drops, better XP, maybe advanced AI. I agree with you though, I want grouping to have a meaning, more so then soloing. I really want some form of challenge. Something I have not found in a MMO for a good while, single player RPGs or a FPS in multiplayer seem to be more difficult then MMOs these days.
I share your assumptions, but not for drops. To be fair, I wouldn't want them to give groupies better drops than soloers, just an increased amount per mob. Say you're taking on a boss; instead of one piece dropping, it gives every person in the group a piece - preferrably one they need. I say "piece" for lack of a better term.
THE Rooster Nash
ZOMG Rooster, I knew I liked you for a reason. THIS ^^ is exactly the reason why I will no longer play WoW. I got SOOOOOOOOOOOOO sick of doing the same raid UMPTEEN FRIGGIN TIMES to get one piece of loot from a raid boss, each and every time with the possibility of not getting it because someone else in the group would roll higher than I would. Of course I was in no way upset at the player for it. I just widh they would change that for every major boss downed, each and every member of the raid should get a loot drop. And like you said, preferably at least something they "could" use.
EDIT
Damn, I just derailed the topic, mah bad guys. Sorry about that. To get back on topic, I whole-heartedly believe that both option should be viable. I LOVE grouping with others. LOVE it. I ran SOOOOOOOO many raids in WoW. Not even for the loot. I took toons into raids they had NO NEED to go in what-so-ever, just to help friends and guildies. And that's the way it should be. For serious stuff, yes, by all means, force me to group. I have no problem with that. However, when I need a group to drop one or two dudes my level, nah, no thanks.
Maligar Kelison
Threat Removal
That kills the entire greed problem with loot distribution, so I'm for it. Only problem with that, is it wont take to long to be fully geared and done with current content if they was granted an item they needed every boss kill. If group size scaled gear I think that would fix the problem. But a full group would have to be insanly difficult. I don't have a problem with groupers having better gear. I mostly enjoy soloing but will group if it has a good feel to it. Not like WoWs constant repeat every week. So for scaling of mobs and bosses I'm hoping something new at each group member add, example would be new abilities. I'm probably asking to much though.
I understand what you are saying and to an extent I agree with you. But in a game like WoW, where I can have 10 toons on a single server, why in the hell should it take me 3-6 MONTHS (slight, SLIGHT exaggeration) of HARDCORE raiding to get ONE toon geared up completely. No way! If I can have 10 toons on the server, I want to have a stable of characters, each with their own abilities and gear, allowing me to play whatever I wanted on a given day.
If it were a game like SWG or whatever, where you could only have one toon, two if you unlocked it, on a single server, i'd be all for delaying rewards in a similar manner to extend sub time. However, WoW and a plethora of games like are not built in that manner. When I played WoW, I had three main toons. Three. The other seven slots were taken up by bank characters. Simply because there was no way in hell I was going to go through the trouble of leveling and gearing all ten. F-That, not with that system.
Maligar Kelison
Threat Removal
Like many posters before i fall into the both category. Usually while gamine i prefer to duo it picking up and losing people along the way. Thus what i truly hate is when you encounter a situation where grouping is penalized, such as a collection quest that there is just enough around for one person nevermind the other people your grouped with.
Fun Factor is what makes or breaks a game, if its not fun just play something else.
LOL ZOMG the harpy collection quest(s) in Mulgore for starter Taurens, in WoW. It took me and my buddy two and a half hours to complete it. The Bronze Feather and Azure Feather one. From that point on we referred to any time where you needed to collect something for a quest and it just wasn't dropping as being "harpied".
Maligar Kelison
Threat Removal
The reason I would like this is because I miss the challenge of a MMO. I want challenge to be something outside of how much time you put into the game, I want the game to revolve around the skill of the player. When I say scales better lets break it down into what I mean. 1 player Normal Stats, 5 players +2 Stats to gear, 10 players +4 Stats to Gear, 15, 20 etc. Every 5 players the gear would slightly rise in stats, this doesn't really give a major advantage to those that group.
But it would have to be challenging, require cordination, and the boss would have to be different on each player scale. If not gear then some other form of compensation. But we have no clue of other alternatives, all we know is gear drops. I would say higher grouped bosses dropped blueprints and such for crafting advanced gear (that was tradeable), but again we really have no clue how deep the crafting system is. If you did make the same gear drop for the same amount of players people would quickly finish up content, the game would stall out till new content was added. And that's not the aim of a game like this, they wanna get you, keep you paying month after month.
I should also add this really depends on how long a raid really is, I seriously hope its not hours on end like WoW. I think they should put time into making multiple locations of bosses so people can actually down 2-3 raids a night and feel some form of accomplishment, not spend 3 hours in one place. That crap gets old fast.
Yeah, I know what you are getting at. CoH has a similar system, not automatic though. You have to manually turn up the difficulty on your missions. However, doing so didn't increase loot rates or anything like that. It simply increased mob number and level, which in turn would increase XP gain and some extra loots to drop, but not higher level or rare ones.. But yeah, I see where you are going and agree that it would work well to help "encourage" player grouping, and not "force" it.
Maligar Kelison
Threat Removal
There is no way to make both viable at the same time. TOR will be a solo game like every MMO before it and after WoW. Only way to make grouping viable is to step on to soloer's toes, and would Bioware do that? No, because they care about the money. And money comes from the soloers. So groupers have to deal with it once again.
I don't care much though, but this talk about happy medium sunshine and rainbows isn't going to work out in reality.
Really? And what, exactly, do you base this on? Have you read any of the information about the game? Any at all? Or is this baseless conjecture? Let me answer that for you. You have no idea what you are talking about. If I had the time and inclination to do it, I could link the article where they (BW) said that you can get to end game and never HAVE to group once. You may not be able to do everything groups do, but you can solo just fine.
Money comes from the soloers? Did you drink a tall glass of idiot for breakfast? Are you getting enough oxygen to your brain? I can't believe anyone would say that on an MMO forum. Ok yes I can, what was I thinking, still a asinine statement. Even Hard core soloists in MMO's KNOW they are the minority by a vast margin. Note I said MMO's.
Anyway, @ OP. You are spot on dude, this topic should be well settled by now.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
The reason I would like this is because I miss the challenge of a MMO. I want challenge to be something outside of how much time you put into the game, I want the game to revolve around the skill of the player. When I say scales better lets break it down into what I mean. 1 player Normal Stats, 5 players +2 Stats to gear, 10 players +4 Stats to Gear, 15, 20 etc. Every 5 players the gear would slightly rise in stats, this doesn't really give a major advantage to those that group.
But it would have to be challenging, require cordination, and the boss would have to be different on each player scale. If not gear then some other form of compensation. But we have no clue of other alternatives, all we know is gear drops. I would say higher grouped bosses dropped blueprints and such for crafting advanced gear (that was tradeable), but again we really have no clue how deep the crafting system is. If you did make the same gear drop for the same amount of players people would quickly finish up content, the game would stall out till new content was added. And that's not the aim of a game like this, they wanna get you, keep you paying month after month.
I should also add this really depends on how long a raid really is, I seriously hope its not hours on end like WoW. I think they should put time into making multiple locations of bosses so people can actually down 2-3 raids a night and feel some form of accomplishment, not spend 3 hours in one place. That crap gets old fast.
In regards to the questing element of TOR, have you checked out the hero engine and whatnot that I linked earlier in this thread? There will be quests that continuously change, and GM events, where they control certain NPCs or areas. I haven't fully read on it, so a lot of what I'm saying is just hear-say from those that have read all about hero engines.
It's one of my favorite elements going into the game though. I can foresee this being an epic development for group questing within the universe of TOR. I'm hoping to see a lot of puzzle solving within hero engines.
As for boss drops; I think it would be possible to implement a system where each player would get a piece that THEY needed, but it could be randomized, and sometimes they might get doubles of a certain item. It will give them a chance to make some extra credits, not to mention having no need for a greed system. In other words, no more ninjas in PUGs. Also, I like the idea of dropping something extra for the group. A single drop that everyone may have to roll on such as a crafting device. So, they get something they need from the boss (feeling that sense of accomplishment that everyone yearns for in a group run) and they get a chance to add a little luck to it as well with the extra drop. I haven't really pondered this idea, so I'm not sure how stable it could be. BUT you would only be allowed to greed on it.
I need to include that I'm not a PUG guy anymore (thanks to the greatest guild organization ever), but I've seen my fair share of ninjas back in the beginning of WoW (not my first MMO mind you, and I dislike having to use them in any context other than BOO! But I digress). When they finally implemented the new greed system, everyone thought it should change things, but you find that there are ALWAYS going to be ninjas in the midst. They can sometimes seem like decent players to PUG with, but then you find that they ninja on the last boss or wherever (and they use one of maybe 2 or 3 excuses everytime).
Finally, I completely agree with allowing for 2-3 raids a night, though I wouldn't mind spending 3 hours in one place if it truly challenged the team.
THE Rooster Nash
ZOMG Rooster, I knew I liked you for a reason. THIS ^^ is exactly the reason why I will no longer play WoW. I got SOOOOOOOOOOOOO sick of doing the same raid UMPTEEN FRIGGIN TIMES to get one piece of loot from a raid boss, each and every time with the possibility of not getting it because someone else in the group would roll higher than I would. Of course I was in no way upset at the player for it. I just widh they would change that for every major boss downed, each and every member of the raid should get a loot drop. And like you said, preferably at least something they "could" use.
EDIT
Damn, I just derailed the topic, mah bad guys. Sorry about that. To get back on topic, I whole-heartedly believe that both option should be viable. I LOVE grouping with others. LOVE it. I ran SOOOOOOOO many raids in WoW. Not even for the loot. I took toons into raids they had NO NEED to go in what-so-ever, just to help friends and guildies. And that's the way it should be. For serious stuff, yes, by all means, force me to group. I have no problem with that. However, when I need a group to drop one or two dudes my level, nah, no thanks.
My guild is a HUGE grouping advocacy that implements everyone with a select division so that - supposing my previous post works - allows for only one or possibly two runs within a specific group scenario.
Otherwise, if we have to deal with repeating a scenario several times, that division's leader (which isn't really a boss perse) allows for the division (usually consisting of about 15 members) to do what needs to be done at different intervals to get those instances completed by structuring the division in such a way that they have a calculated amount of time (further adds to challenge, which we all enjoy) to complete a scenario in order to accomplish the necessary tasks in a timely fashion. While members of this division can opt to repeat as desired, they are only required to repeat the quest until everyone within that division is geared and has completed the quest within the scenario. With WoW (ugh), it would require one of our divisions to run an instance on average about 6-9 times, depending on the amount of bosses and quest content within the instance. That's absurd, but still a lot less than the average WoW player would have to.
I literally went through that entire explanation just to explain one single point at the end haha... I wasn't sure how else to get it across.
THE Rooster Nash
LOL! Yeah, but that's okay. Reading your messages isn't chore like some others floating around here!
Maligar Kelison
Threat Removal
Yeah, I know what you are getting at. CoH has a similar system, not automatic though. You have to manually turn up the difficulty on your missions. However, doing so didn't increase loot rates or anything like that. It simply increased mob number and level, which in turn would increase XP gain and some extra loots to drop, but not higher level or rare ones.. But yeah, I see where you are going and agree that it would work well to help "encourage" player grouping, and not "force" it.
To me that doesn't encourage player grouping, it discourages it.
If I'm not getting anything better, if I don't need another player because the dungeon just scales, why would I try to take the time to get another player in the group?
I've got four players in the group. We can do the dungeon and get the reward.
Why would we wait on number 5 to get there, when the dungeon just scales and we get the exact same thing? Why no just go on in with the 4 players?
Yeah, I know what you are getting at. CoH has a similar system, not automatic though. You have to manually turn up the difficulty on your missions. However, doing so didn't increase loot rates or anything like that. It simply increased mob number and level, which in turn would increase XP gain and some extra loots to drop, but not higher level or rare ones.. But yeah, I see where you are going and agree that it would work well to help "encourage" player grouping, and not "force" it.
To me that doesn't encourage player grouping, it discourages it.
If I'm not getting anything better, if I don't need another player because the dungeon just scales, why would I try to take the time to get another player in the group?
I've got four players in the group. We can do the dungeon and get the reward.
Why would we wait on number 5 to get there, when the dungeon just scales and we get the exact same thing? Why no just go on in with the 4 players?
I have to agree with you on this. While I am a fan of super heroes and comic books, I just can't stand Cryptic's approach to missions in CoX.
THE Rooster Nash
That's the nicest thing anyone's ever said about me... except when my old lady tells me she LOVES to "crotch shock" me. Just hearing her say the word love sends little butterflies fluttering around in my stomach.
Shortly after that, I wind up hunched over on the floor. Love is painful.
THE Rooster Nash