I dig their system. I have been having more fun in WoW lately than ever before. Because I don't have to log in for 4 hours a night. Some nights 1 hour, some 2 and on raid nights 4-5 ok. But the daily grind of every night play...have ended. Happy that it takes less time to do things, other MMOs should take a serious look at these changes. They are overall for the better. It allows hardcore and casual alike to enjoy the game.
Why should a casual player have similar gear to someone thats not . Whats gone is the investment in a character . Its only a game but its indicative of the I WANT IT NOW over I WANT TO WORK FOR IT mentality . The sort of thing that led to borrowing which led to the credit crunch which led to the global recession . If someone has time and is willing to put in the work they should have superior items , armor and weapons . This does nt happen in WOW anymore . Its why the game has lost its edge and is dull and boring these days . A Cataclysm needs to happen but not just to Warcraft but to Blizzards attitude to the game .Otherwise its just more of the same . A con job .
AMEN BROTHA! or SISTA!!!
"its indicative of the I WANT IT NOW over I WANT TO WORK FOR IT mentality" - I think you are wrong, its more an indicative of I WANT TO HAVE FUN achieving it over I WANT TO GRIND FOR IT AND HOPE NOBODY GRINDS AS MUCH AS I DO. If I where you I would concentrate in "I WANT TO WORK FOR IT" in real life because that's the "sort of thing that led to borrowing which led to the credit crunch which led to the global recession". If you are so worried with economy, I would like to tell you that having someone loosing time in a virtual world for more than 5 hours a day is really bad for economy, you will earn less and spend less, you will also wont have a family and children that will help to pay the taxes that will cover your retirement :P
Why should a casual player have similar gear to someone thats not . Whats gone is the investment in a character . Its only a game but its indicative of the I WANT IT NOW over I WANT TO WORK FOR IT mentality . The sort of thing that led to borrowing which led to the credit crunch which led to the global recession . If someone has time and is willing to put in the work they should have superior items , armor and weapons . This does nt happen in WOW anymore . Its why the game has lost its edge and is dull and boring these days . A Cataclysm needs to happen but not just to Warcraft but to Blizzards attitude to the game .Otherwise its just more of the same . A con job .
This is exactly why some of us hate this casual approach. If I put more work into something I expect to get more than the person who doesn't. Take for example you work in an office and you bust your arse every day but the slacker in the next room, who barely does any work..shows up late...etc. gets the promotion or the raise. It doesn't matter that this is a game the mentality that "I Worked Hard for This" is still there.
BTW: I do find it funny that I (along with others) said the Lazy Casuals (ie those who want it all for nothing; even the Casuals hate them) would still complain that the game was to hard and how they couldn't devote 4hrs twice a week to raid (even though they probably play 6hrs a day) and that Blizzard would cave again and make epics even easier to get. This was when 10mans were first announced. I also brought it up again when 10man versions of 25mans were announced. And I'll bring it up now that 5man versions of 10mans ( ToC[5NR]); epics should never drop like candy in 5mans.
I suppose the main reason I get irritated over this is because I started this game back in 2006 and I didn't start raiding until Mid-TBC; I CHOOSE to take the time to learn my class and the raids. I'm just as busy as any employed person, yet I still make time to raid; you should too.
Our greatest glory is not in never falling but in rising everytime we fall.
If I put more work into something I expect to get more than the person who doesn't. Take for example you work in an office and you bust your arse every day but the slacker in the next room, who barely does any work..shows up late...etc. gets the promotion or the raise.
Do you REALLY want to judge your recreational activity by the same standard as your job? REALLY? Because that's the last thing I want to do.
Why should a casual player have similar gear to someone thats not . Whats gone is the investment in a character . Its only a game but its indicative of the I WANT IT NOW over I WANT TO WORK FOR IT mentality . The sort of thing that led to borrowing which led to the credit crunch which led to the global recession . If someone has time and is willing to put in the work they should have superior items , armor and weapons . This does nt happen in WOW anymore . Its why the game has lost its edge and is dull and boring these days . A Cataclysm needs to happen but not just to Warcraft but to Blizzards attitude to the game .Otherwise its just more of the same . A con job .
This is exactly why some of us hate this casual approach. If I put more work into something I expect to get more than the person who doesn't. Take for example you work in an office and you bust your arse every day but the slacker in the next room, who barely does any work..shows up late...etc. gets the promotion or the raise. It doesn't matter that this is a game the mentality that "I Worked Hard for This" is still there.
BTW: I do find it funny that I (along with others) said the Lazy Casuals (ie those who want it all for nothing; even the Casuals hate them) would still complain that the game was to hard and how they couldn't devote 4hrs twice a week to raid (even though they probably play 6hrs a day) and that Blizzard would cave again and make epics even easier to get. This was when 10mans were first announced. I also brought it up again when 10man versions of 25mans were announced. And I'll bring it up now that 5man versions of 10mans ( ToC[5NR]); epics should never drop like candy in 5mans.
I suppose the main reason I get irritated over this is because I started this game back in 2006 and I didn't start raiding until Mid-TBC; I CHOOSE to take the time to learn my class and the raids. I'm just as busy as any employed person, yet I still make time to raid; you should too.
I don't understand your logic whatsoever. If you put in more work than a casual player, you WILL have better gear, unless, of course, you or your guild are bad and can't do the heroic/hardmode versions of raids. No one is stopping you from getting better gear! Have at the hardmodes all you want and profit from ~13-26 iLevels of gear difference!
Basically, the fact of the matter is this:
1. Blizzard doesn't want to make content for 1-2% of the game community. This is a bad business practice in almost any market.
2. More people raiding = more people with goals (Both gear and acheivements) = more people continuing subscriptions.
3. No one is taking anything away from you, so why do all of the "hardcores" have this resentment to others getting purples?
I Posted the reality in the first post, Yet look at all the candy land rationalizations.
MMO players are funny.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Just to give you "hardcore" veterans a little perspective...
You got to group through vanilla WoW, The Burning Crusade and WotLK. Your regular everyday playing of the game back then allowed you loads of opportunity to do group content and learn the ins and outs.
A player starting today will hardly ever have a chance to group as he levels up. The most he can hope for is being run through an instance. He simply won't have a chance to learn and hone the "skills" you hardcore veterans are so proud of.
You've had years of practice, whereas a new 80 today has had NONE.
It's helpful for new players getting to 80 to have sort of "Intro to Grouping" instances that allow them to get some non-crappy gear so that they can start becoming assets, and to learn the techniques that will give them the skills and confidence to take on harder fights.
If end-game is only supposed to be fun for those of you who were fortunate enough to have always known grouping, then be prepared for WoW to start losing players.
This is exactly why some of us hate this casual approach. If I put more work into something I expect to get more than the person who doesn't. Take for example you work in an office and you bust your arse every day but the slacker in the next room, who barely does any work..shows up late...etc. gets the promotion or the raise. It doesn't matter that this is a game the mentality that "I Worked Hard for This" is still there.
You example assumes that they causal is lazy. A person that comes in with a new way of doing your job that is fast and better than you deserves more than you because you were too lazy to look for a new way of doing the same thing at your job. So you deserve less than the faster more efficient person. The innovater will get promoted and a raise faster than the "I Worked Hard of This" person.
and quite frankly impossible to perfect way of keeping our eyeballs glued to the computer screen.
Very nice post! I understand your point and this can be put into many other games as well.
But you forgot one category that is slightly important: the incompetent gamer.
These are the players you see in-game making poop and Chuck Norris jokes in a trade chat. These are the players kill stealing your monsters for an important quest you have to do and then laughing at you. These are the players corpse camping you when they are 70 or so levels above you! This is the REAL Problem WoW has with me. I have played many other games and by far WoW has the worst community voice ever; a fat 11 year old spamming "n00b" in your message box as he hammers you to the ground. It's hard to even consider them "Players".
1) just ignore players making chuck norris jokes. Just one command and you will never hear from them again.
2) killstealing is a problem but not a big one. All the mobs in wow respawn fairly fast.
3) corpse camping? There is no corpse camping unless you go to teh opposite fraction city. It is impossible to corpse camp on a normal server. If you are on a Pvp server, you are asking for it and i have no sympathy.
4) If you allow anyone to spam you without banning them from your chat box, you deserve that spam.
An innovator is not a slacker, if you have any work experience you will know that. Your analogy is fundamentally wrong Horusa. It is not the casual player who is the innovator here, it is the MMO company which is being innovative. Effectively like your employer at work coming up with some innovations. The problem here is that these innovations favour the part time, casual player, so it is hardly surprising that those that put more effort into a game decry such ‘innovations’.
I judge my success. Who here can honestly say they enjoy the feeling of loosing or being "cheated out". I can further explain that by responding to #3 of the next poster..
3) This is where I have a problem. The gear you get (Tier Gear) looks exactly the same only with a slightly different color. It doesn't look any better for the effort the raid had to put forth in order to get it (ie finding an extra 15 players or coordination for hardmodes). If we're going to try something harder the gear should be better (and it's only marginally better in terms of iLvL) and should have "the look". But most of the gear is just reskins of other gear, or ends up being the template for the gear for the next raid instance to come out.
We should be able to [at a glance] see who does hardmodes and who doesn't. And it will NEVER matter you will always have people who will use anything they can find to make " Me > You ". And you shouldn't concern yourself with people like that (though I bet it sounds like I'm one of those ).
Most divide the player base into two types: Hardcore and Casual. I divide into three: Hardcore, Casual, and Lazy. And I don't think anyone will every like the Lazies (except for other Lazies). You want to play Hardcore? Fine with me. You want to play Casual? Fine with me. You want to play Lazy? Fine, but don't expect free handouts; because it will never be 'easy' enough for your type...even if they mailed you epics, you'd still complain how you have to find a mailbox and then click on the mail.
----
All in all, I don't think Blizzard has found the 'sweet spot' for raiding. Naxx was a faceroll in greens and blues. Ulduar was....well...Ulduar. And ToC(10/25) is definitely getting there. Hopefully Icecrown will it.
Our greatest glory is not in never falling but in rising everytime we fall.
Comments
Couldn't agree more.
AMEN BROTHA! or SISTA!!!
"its indicative of the I WANT IT NOW over I WANT TO WORK FOR IT mentality" - I think you are wrong, its more an indicative of I WANT TO HAVE FUN achieving it over I WANT TO GRIND FOR IT AND HOPE NOBODY GRINDS AS MUCH AS I DO. If I where you I would concentrate in "I WANT TO WORK FOR IT" in real life because that's the "sort of thing that led to borrowing which led to the credit crunch which led to the global recession". If you are so worried with economy, I would like to tell you that having someone loosing time in a virtual world for more than 5 hours a day is really bad for economy, you will earn less and spend less, you will also wont have a family and children that will help to pay the taxes that will cover your retirement :P
This is exactly why some of us hate this casual approach. If I put more work into something I expect to get more than the person who doesn't. Take for example you work in an office and you bust your arse every day but the slacker in the next room, who barely does any work..shows up late...etc. gets the promotion or the raise. It doesn't matter that this is a game the mentality that "I Worked Hard for This" is still there.
BTW: I do find it funny that I (along with others) said the Lazy Casuals (ie those who want it all for nothing; even the Casuals hate them) would still complain that the game was to hard and how they couldn't devote 4hrs twice a week to raid (even though they probably play 6hrs a day) and that Blizzard would cave again and make epics even easier to get. This was when 10mans were first announced. I also brought it up again when 10man versions of 25mans were announced. And I'll bring it up now that 5man versions of 10mans ( ToC[5NR]); epics should never drop like candy in 5mans.
I suppose the main reason I get irritated over this is because I started this game back in 2006 and I didn't start raiding until Mid-TBC; I CHOOSE to take the time to learn my class and the raids. I'm just as busy as any employed person, yet I still make time to raid; you should too.
Our greatest glory is not in never falling but in rising everytime we fall.
Do you REALLY want to judge your recreational activity by the same standard as your job? REALLY? Because that's the last thing I want to do.
Active: WoW
Semi-retired: STO
Fully retired: UO, EQ, AC, SWG, FFXI, DDO:EU, PoTBS, AoC, EvE
Tried: EQ2, Tabula Rasa, Auto-Assault, Isteria, LotRO, Wizard 101
Looking forward to: Star Citizen
This is exactly why some of us hate this casual approach. If I put more work into something I expect to get more than the person who doesn't. Take for example you work in an office and you bust your arse every day but the slacker in the next room, who barely does any work..shows up late...etc. gets the promotion or the raise. It doesn't matter that this is a game the mentality that "I Worked Hard for This" is still there.
BTW: I do find it funny that I (along with others) said the Lazy Casuals (ie those who want it all for nothing; even the Casuals hate them) would still complain that the game was to hard and how they couldn't devote 4hrs twice a week to raid (even though they probably play 6hrs a day) and that Blizzard would cave again and make epics even easier to get. This was when 10mans were first announced. I also brought it up again when 10man versions of 25mans were announced. And I'll bring it up now that 5man versions of 10mans ( ToC[5NR]); epics should never drop like candy in 5mans.
I suppose the main reason I get irritated over this is because I started this game back in 2006 and I didn't start raiding until Mid-TBC; I CHOOSE to take the time to learn my class and the raids. I'm just as busy as any employed person, yet I still make time to raid; you should too.
I don't understand your logic whatsoever. If you put in more work than a casual player, you WILL have better gear, unless, of course, you or your guild are bad and can't do the heroic/hardmode versions of raids. No one is stopping you from getting better gear! Have at the hardmodes all you want and profit from ~13-26 iLevels of gear difference!
Basically, the fact of the matter is this:
1. Blizzard doesn't want to make content for 1-2% of the game community. This is a bad business practice in almost any market.
2. More people raiding = more people with goals (Both gear and acheivements) = more people continuing subscriptions.
3. No one is taking anything away from you, so why do all of the "hardcores" have this resentment to others getting purples?
I Posted the reality in the first post, Yet look at all the candy land rationalizations.
MMO players are funny.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Just to give you "hardcore" veterans a little perspective...
You got to group through vanilla WoW, The Burning Crusade and WotLK. Your regular everyday playing of the game back then allowed you loads of opportunity to do group content and learn the ins and outs.
A player starting today will hardly ever have a chance to group as he levels up. The most he can hope for is being run through an instance. He simply won't have a chance to learn and hone the "skills" you hardcore veterans are so proud of.
You've had years of practice, whereas a new 80 today has had NONE.
It's helpful for new players getting to 80 to have sort of "Intro to Grouping" instances that allow them to get some non-crappy gear so that they can start becoming assets, and to learn the techniques that will give them the skills and confidence to take on harder fights.
If end-game is only supposed to be fun for those of you who were fortunate enough to have always known grouping, then be prepared for WoW to start losing players.
You example assumes that they causal is lazy. A person that comes in with a new way of doing your job that is fast and better than you deserves more than you because you were too lazy to look for a new way of doing the same thing at your job. So you deserve less than the faster more efficient person. The innovater will get promoted and a raise faster than the "I Worked Hard of This" person.
Very nice post! I understand your point and this can be put into many other games as well.
But you forgot one category that is slightly important: the incompetent gamer.
These are the players you see in-game making poop and Chuck Norris jokes in a trade chat. These are the players kill stealing your monsters for an important quest you have to do and then laughing at you. These are the players corpse camping you when they are 70 or so levels above you! This is the REAL Problem WoW has with me. I have played many other games and by far WoW has the worst community voice ever; a fat 11 year old spamming "n00b" in your message box as he hammers you to the ground. It's hard to even consider them "Players".
1) just ignore players making chuck norris jokes. Just one command and you will never hear from them again.
2) killstealing is a problem but not a big one. All the mobs in wow respawn fairly fast.
3) corpse camping? There is no corpse camping unless you go to teh opposite fraction city. It is impossible to corpse camp on a normal server. If you are on a Pvp server, you are asking for it and i have no sympathy.
4) If you allow anyone to spam you without banning them from your chat box, you deserve that spam.
An innovator is not a slacker, if you have any work experience you will know that. Your analogy is fundamentally wrong Horusa. It is not the casual player who is the innovator here, it is the MMO company which is being innovative. Effectively like your employer at work coming up with some innovations. The problem here is that these innovations favour the part time, casual player, so it is hardly surprising that those that put more effort into a game decry such ‘innovations’.
For space saving purposes...
@NotNiceDino:
I judge my success. Who here can honestly say they enjoy the feeling of loosing or being "cheated out". I can further explain that by responding to #3 of the next poster..
@htiger23:
1) I don't want Blizzard to either
2) I have no problem with this at all
3) This is where I have a problem. The gear you get (Tier Gear) looks exactly the same only with a slightly different color. It doesn't look any better for the effort the raid had to put forth in order to get it (ie finding an extra 15 players or coordination for hardmodes). If we're going to try something harder the gear should be better (and it's only marginally better in terms of iLvL) and should have "the look". But most of the gear is just reskins of other gear, or ends up being the template for the gear for the next raid instance to come out.
We should be able to [at a glance] see who does hardmodes and who doesn't. And it will NEVER matter you will always have people who will use anything they can find to make " Me > You ". And you shouldn't concern yourself with people like that (though I bet it sounds like I'm one of those
).
@Horusra:
Most divide the player base into two types: Hardcore and Casual. I divide into three: Hardcore, Casual, and Lazy. And I don't think anyone will every like the Lazies (except for other Lazies). You want to play Hardcore? Fine with me. You want to play Casual? Fine with me. You want to play Lazy? Fine, but don't expect free handouts; because it will never be 'easy' enough for your type...even if they mailed you epics, you'd still complain how you have to find a mailbox and then click on the mail.
----
All in all, I don't think Blizzard has found the 'sweet spot' for raiding. Naxx was a faceroll in greens and blues. Ulduar was....well...Ulduar. And ToC(10/25) is definitely getting there. Hopefully Icecrown will it.
Our greatest glory is not in never falling but in rising everytime we fall.