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Healing/Damage meters make people play like garbage.

Remii718Remii718 Member Posts: 164

I'm sure you've all seen this situation before. You run a heroic or raid and the DPS is trying so hard to one up eachother that they pull aggro and make a tanks and healers life hell or after a flawless encounter there is always one idiot healer complaining about overheals.

People need to focus more on the actual game and shut down those meters already. Who gives a shit what the Dps meters say if a boss dies fast and the tank kept aggro? Who cares how much overhealing was on a boss fight if noone died and healers still had mana when the boss died?

Right now you have Dps pulling aggro since Dps threat with all this new gear is actually catching Tanks Op AoE threat and you have healers letting players die because they're afraid to overheal.

I think wows pve would be a much better experience for everyone if blizzard just took away the modders ability to make Dps/healing meters.

Think about it, Dps would watch aggro and not get caught in stupid gas clouds and healers would actually keep players topped off.

Oh well, maybe in a perfect world.

Playing: WoW, EvE

Interested in: TOR, ER, GW2, WoD, Dust514

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Comments

  • BlindchanceBlindchance Member UncommonPosts: 1,112

    Addons, like all other third party programs destroy immersion in games, nothing new. Same with levels and character, item statistics, people just think about numbers and level rat race. You won't change it, that's human nature, easier is to build game mechanics in different way.

  • LeucentLeucent Member Posts: 2,371

    I ve always hated dps meters. I agree completely who cares if someone out dps me, if i m doing my role and properly then what should it matter. I usually play a tank, and my wife a healer and we usually say before habd watch your aggro because the group is better with me and her alive, If they don t listen they die simple, she isn t wasting her mana on them :)

  • mightynuttermightynutter Member Posts: 7

    without those meters it would be hard to know if we're improving, but i suppose some people who stare at them throughout a fight are worthless anyway. it's interesting to look at after a fight though :)

    mages ftw!

  • KalmporosKalmporos Member UncommonPosts: 293
    Originally posted by Remii718


    I'm sure you've all seen this situation before. You run a heroic or raid and the DPS is trying so hard to one up eachother that they pull aggro and make a tanks and healers life hell or after a flawless encounter there is always one idiot healer complaining about overheals.


    People need to focus more on the actual game and shut down those meters already. Who gives a shit what the Dps meters say if a boss dies fast and the tank kept aggro? Who cares how much overhealing was on a boss fight if noone died and healers still had mana when the boss died?


    Right now you have Dps pulling aggro since Dps threat with all this new gear is actually catching Tanks Op AoE threat and you have healers letting players die because they're afraid to overheal.


    I think wows pve would be a much better experience for everyone if blizzard just took away the modders ability to make Dps/healing meters.


    Think about it, Dps would watch aggro and not get caught in stupid gas clouds and healers would actually keep players topped off.


    Oh well, maybe in a perfect world.

    For once, I completely agree with you Remii !

  • SwampRobSwampRob Member UncommonPosts: 1,003

    Two points:  one, I've always felt that any addon was either a cheat, or a design flaw.   If something is soooo "required" that success is very difficult without it, it should've been in the game in the first place.    IMO, no MMO should allow ANY addons to be run whatsoever, and should warn/ban folks that do.

    As for the pulling mobs off the tank, this should be nearly impossible.   I don't mean in how Wow is currently, my mage has done it enough times, but rather it should be made nearly impossible.    FFS, if I'm playing a damage dealer, I should be free to deal all the damage I can.   "Oh, you do damage, but don't do too much".  So effing stupid to me.   It makes even less sense than restrictor plates on vehicles in a race.

  • Remii718Remii718 Member Posts: 164
    Originally posted by mightynutter


    without those meters it would be hard to know if we're improving, but i suppose some people who stare at them throughout a fight are worthless anyway. it's interesting to look at after a fight though :)
    mages ftw!

     

    All blizzard needs to do is let the training dummies give you a DPS read out every 30 seconds and you could work on spell rotation and increasing damage overall without making WoWs pve game an actual race for the meters like it is now.

    Playing: WoW, EvE

    Interested in: TOR, ER, GW2, WoD, Dust514

  • demarc01demarc01 Member UncommonPosts: 429

    Outside of a raid setting .. yes they are terrible and tend to cause bad gameplay.

    Inside a raid setting they have thier uses.

    I was a longtime raid leader in WoW and EQ1/2, I used meters to gather information. I did not, nor did I allow, any "meter-spamming" in my raids. That really does promote bad play. Mostly the meters ran in the background until we were on progression fights.

    After failing on progression fights I could call an AFK and review the meters. It would allow me to see where we needed to improve, More cures? More healing? Less over-healing? (If mana was an issue) More DPS? Maby swap some gear out? Coordinate the healers better to reduce over-heals. Work with MoB positioning to allow DPS greater DPS time etc. From there I could whisper people in the raid and see how we could improve or talk on vent to tighten things up. NEVER did I call someone out for getting low DPS / Healing etc publically!!! You dont know what else they were doing and what problems they were encountering (MoBs do nasty shit like silence / port / summon adds etc that you have to factor).

    So in short ... for general play I hate meters of all kinds. The game is supposed to be teambased and as long as your playing as a team and getting the job done then there is no reason to be "top DPS" or "top healer" etc. All that tells me is that your focusing on 1 aspect and not doing your whole job. (For example - Top healers generally have huge over-heal and very little curing done, Top DPS generally are not adding thier Debuffs to the mix etc)

    Meters are a tool for raid leaders and math freaks like me to try and optomize on progression based encounters ... Meters are an E-peen tool for most people though which is sad.




  • demarc01demarc01 Member UncommonPosts: 429

    "What I also find amusing: each character that "measures" has another result (mostly in favor of the guy using the meter)."

     

    Thats due to proximity to the boss. The meter gathers its information based on what you see in your combat box. If your not in range to see someone else's damage on the boss then it wont register on your parse.

    Fights with more than one target will generally cause more issues with parsers too.

    Never really counted on parsers for true DPS numbers .. they give you an idea and thats about it really.

     

    Edit - spelling




  • KalmporosKalmporos Member UncommonPosts: 293

    I remember back in the days of MC I was the only paladin in the 40man raid that was actually cleansing debuffs instead of trying to top the healing meters. There was not an overhealing meter back then and as you can imagine all the depressed healers were trying to heal as much as possible to flex their e-peen. As a result they were ignoring debuffs and were just healing.

  • FireFishFireFish Member Posts: 5

    I agree to a certain extent but it can be pretty useful if you are puging many instances and want to know if everyone in the group is pulling thier weight...  Can often explain why bosses are too hard to down etc if many DPS classes are underachieving..

  • demarc01demarc01 Member UncommonPosts: 429
    Originally posted by Elesthor


    I remember back in the days of MC I was the only paladin in the 40man raid that was actually cleansing debuffs instead of trying to top the healing meters. There was not an overhealing meter back then and as you can imagine all the depressed healers were trying to heal as much as possible to flex their e-peen. As a result they were ignoring debuffs and were just healing.



     

    Yup.

    Goes back to what I was saying above. People who top meters are usually neglecting some other part of thier classes abilitys to do so. Its not good play. The healing race did get a little better when the decursing parses were added as well.

    Theres alot that meters do not reflect.

    Debuffs are a good example. If Class X debuffs a mob so that it takes 0.5% more damage, but said debuff has to be reapplied every 20 seconds, that player is not acting towards the good of the raid if he does not apply it. Of course in not applying it his personal stats will improve (he does not "waste" a GCD on a debuff that does no actual damage) but the raid stats will drop and overall DPS output will suffer.

    There are lots of cases like this. Its more a factor in EQ2 than WoW since alot of the DPS classes in EQ2 have some pretty powerful debuffs (Brigand comes to mind) But the example stands .. you can "pad" your own meters not doing things that directly add to your "score" but the overall result is a drop in raid/group efficiency ... IE = BAD PLAY.




  • demarc01demarc01 Member UncommonPosts: 429
    Originally posted by FireFish


    I agree to a certain extent but it can be pretty useful if you are puging many instances and want to know if everyone in the group is pulling thier weight...  Can often explain why bosses are too hard to down etc if many DPS classes are underachieving..



     

    I'm assuming you play DPS lol.

    Bosses dont die just  because of DPS :)

    Healing could be the issuse. Cleansing? Mitigation could be a factor. (tank taking more DPS than healers can cope with?) 

    Not ragging on you .. but there are many more factors to a boss not dying than just the DPS underperforming. Sure if the boss is hitting an enrage timer while your tanks are golden and healers have power .. thats a DPS issue .. just making a point that these games are not just DPS centric :)




  • XiaokiXiaoki Member EpicPosts: 3,823

    The meters are a tool that you can use to help improve yourself and your guild.

    With the meters I can check on DPS that is underperforming

    I can check on tanks taking damage that they shouldnt be

    I can check on dispells and interrupts, who is doing it and who isnt

    I can check on who is healing who and by how much

    I can check what damage people are taking that is avoidable

    Spamming the meters is not good practice and neither is using them for DPS contests. However, whats also not good is a level 80 Rogue doing 800 DPS in full epic gear. Whats not good is a tank dying because he didnt get any heals for 5 seconds. Whats not good is people standing in poison clouds.

    Like any tool, damage/healing meters are only good when properly used. If you use a hammer as a saw the results will be bad.

  • FkinglinuxFkinglinux Member Posts: 156
    Originally posted by demarc01


    "What I also find amusing: each character that "measures" has another result (mostly in favor of the guy using the meter)."
     
    Thats due to proximity to the boss. The meter gathers its information based on what you see in your combat box. If your not in range to see someone else's damage on the boss then it wont register on your parse.
    Fights with more than one target will generally cause more issues with parsers too.
    Never really counted on parsers for true DPS numbers .. they give you an idea and thats about it really.
     
    Edit - spelling

     

    You can change the range your combat log picks up, so your meter will be true. That being said, I agree with the above poster about meters if used correctly can tell you what players need to improve and which are doing fine. Most people don't remember pre-bc raiding, but Naxx was hard, very hard, and you needed ALL your players to be doing their jobs.

  • demarc01demarc01 Member UncommonPosts: 429
    Originally posted by Fkinglinux

    Originally posted by demarc01


    "What I also find amusing: each character that "measures" has another result (mostly in favor of the guy using the meter)."
     
    Thats due to proximity to the boss. The meter gathers its information based on what you see in your combat box. If your not in range to see someone else's damage on the boss then it wont register on your parse.
    Fights with more than one target will generally cause more issues with parsers too.
    Never really counted on parsers for true DPS numbers .. they give you an idea and thats about it really.
     
    Edit - spelling

     

    You can change the range your combat log picks up, so your meter will be true. That being said, I agree with the above poster about meters if used correctly can tell you what players need to improve and which are doing fine. Most people don't remember pre-bc raiding, but Naxx was hard, very hard, and you needed ALL your players to be doing their jobs.



     

     

    Yes you can change the ranges and that can help on some fights. Some are just so spread out though that it wont really matter. Pretty much my point was that your combat log has to pick it up to parse it.

    I remember Naxx Pre-BC very well. It was hard but it was fun, damm Anub fight took us a couple of nights to get down alone and that was entry level in there :)

    My point about meters being a guide at best was more directed at what meters dont show than what they do. They dont show the effect that debuffs/buffs have on increasing  damage or mitigating incomming DPS. They dont show the effect of a combat rez. (the time said healer spends rezing and rebuffing is lost healing parse for said healer) They dont account for cures really. Sure they show who is curing .. they dont however show the incomming DPS from the debuffs for the duration that they remained on the raid though, which means additional healing had to be done.

    What I mean is the faster a debuff is cured the less healing has to be done to recover from it. So a quickly cured debuff means a debuff cure and a few healing points .. a debuff left on for awhile would mean a cure and a large amount of HP healed which sqews the heal meters somewhat. They are a tool is all. Meters are getting more and more in depth but I doubt they will ever give a "true" breakdown of the battle. Sure they are alot more accurate than the initial DPS / Heal only meters, they still have holes though.

    As I said in my above posts I did use them and I did appreciate the information they gave me on progression Raids. They are not the be-all and end-all though. They are a tool to use that will improve your raid efficiency if you can read them right and interpret the information they give with what's actually happening around you. Taken just alone as a set of statistics they lose alot of thier meaning.

    Ie - A heal parse alone tells you how much healing done, "Our healers rock they healed 500K! but we still wiped" ... but ... Coupled with the real time knowledge that half your raid did'ent move out of the acid cloud or left debuffs on too long .. it tells a whole nother story. "Our raid suxs we should move and save 200K healing and not die" Or that the debuffs were not cured fast enough "Healing 500K is good guys .. but if you cure the debuffs quicker you'll only have to heal 300K ... "

    Get my drift? You have the numbers but you need the put them in context for them to serve any purpose :)




  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by demarc01

    Originally posted by FireFish


    I agree to a certain extent but it can be pretty useful if you are puging many instances and want to know if everyone in the group is pulling thier weight...  Can often explain why bosses are too hard to down etc if many DPS classes are underachieving..



     

    I'm assuming you play DPS lol.

    Bosses dont die just  because of DPS :)

    Healing could be the issuse. Cleansing? Mitigation could be a factor. (tank taking more DPS than healers can cope with?) 

    Not ragging on you .. but there are many more factors to a boss not dying than just the DPS underperforming. Sure if the boss is hitting an enrage timer while your tanks are golden and healers have power .. thats a DPS issue .. just making a point that these games are not just DPS centric :)



     

    You just say it. If the boss is hitting an enrage timer, you do need to know which dps to kick and which to keep. Can't do that without a meter. So it is ONE factor.

    Plus, higher dps always make the encounter easy. We go back to run H because of the new emblem change in wow. It is much easier now that you can burn down boss much faster. You still need to know if you can do that and that changes strategy.

    We are talking the general use of meters, not just dps meters. Some fights, numbers are not as important. And for some fights, numbers are important. Meters are just a tool to give you that information WHEN NEEDED.

    Oh there are addons telling if players are doing the right thing in teh fight too, not just pure dps/heal numbers. For example, there is an add that can tell if players are avoiding the firewall in the OS fight so you know who is being killed because they can't run the right pattern.

  • LeucentLeucent Member Posts: 2,371
    Originally posted by Xiaoki


    The meters are a tool that you can use to help improve yourself and your guild.
    With the meters I can check on DPS that is underperforming
    I can check on tanks taking damage that they shouldnt be
    I can check on dispells and interrupts, who is doing it and who isnt
    I can check on who is healing who and by how much
    I can check what damage people are taking that is avoidable
    Spamming the meters is not good practice and neither is using them for DPS contests. However, whats also not good is a level 80 Rogue doing 800 DPS in full epic gear. Whats not good is a tank dying because he didnt get any heals for 5 seconds. Whats not good is people standing in poison clouds.
    Like any tool, damage/healing meters are only good when properly used. If you use a hammer as a saw the results will be bad.
     

    See here in lies the problem. Back in the day when there were no meters, people played the game for fun, would learn from mistakes etc. Now people are all about how they can outperform everyone else. There is no need for such a tool in a game, IMO, because were all there to have fun and adapt to situations to make the experience better. It makes it all about me me me not us and that is a big problem with these meters IMO.

     

  • steamtanksteamtank Member UncommonPosts: 391

    smart players treat their meters like speedometers.  Every once in a bit during a fight you check to make sure you are going at just the right speed.

     

    If you are overhealing to much in an early stage of a fight you might be screwed when an enrage happens.

    DPS meters work well in guilds that arnt full of f'tards.

     

     

    dont blame an addon for players using an addon inproperly.

  • Frostbite05Frostbite05 Member Posts: 1,880
    Originally posted by Leucent

    Originally posted by Xiaoki


    The meters are a tool that you can use to help improve yourself and your guild.
    With the meters I can check on DPS that is underperforming
    I can check on tanks taking damage that they shouldnt be
    I can check on dispells and interrupts, who is doing it and who isnt
    I can check on who is healing who and by how much
    I can check what damage people are taking that is avoidable
    Spamming the meters is not good practice and neither is using them for DPS contests. However, whats also not good is a level 80 Rogue doing 800 DPS in full epic gear. Whats not good is a tank dying because he didnt get any heals for 5 seconds. Whats not good is people standing in poison clouds.
    Like any tool, damage/healing meters are only good when properly used. If you use a hammer as a saw the results will be bad.
     

    See here in lies the problem. Back in the day when there were no meters, people played the game for fun, would learn from mistakes etc. Now people are all about how they can outperform everyone else. There is no need for such a tool in a game, IMO, because were all there to have fun and adapt to situations to make the experience better. It makes it all about me me me not us and that is a big problem with these meters IMO.

     

     

    Dps meters have been around since the start of vanilla WoW. Back then you could just spam buttons for the most part and do good damage/healing.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Leucent

    Originally posted by Xiaoki


    The meters are a tool that you can use to help improve yourself and your guild.
    With the meters I can check on DPS that is underperforming
    I can check on tanks taking damage that they shouldnt be
    I can check on dispells and interrupts, who is doing it and who isnt
    I can check on who is healing who and by how much
    I can check what damage people are taking that is avoidable
    Spamming the meters is not good practice and neither is using them for DPS contests. However, whats also not good is a level 80 Rogue doing 800 DPS in full epic gear. Whats not good is a tank dying because he didnt get any heals for 5 seconds. Whats not good is people standing in poison clouds.
    Like any tool, damage/healing meters are only good when properly used. If you use a hammer as a saw the results will be bad.
     

    See here in lies the problem. Back in the day when there were no meters, people played the game for fun, would learn from mistakes etc. Now people are all about how they can outperform everyone else. There is no need for such a tool in a game, IMO, because were all there to have fun and adapt to situations to make the experience better. It makes it all about me me me not us and that is a big problem with these meters IMO.

     



     

    If the boss enrages and everyone dies, how do you learn from teh mistake when you don't know which DPS who is not doing their rotation right and cause the wipe?

    You simply don't have the information to learn from mistakes and meters help with that.

    And from all i have seen, no one gets kicked out of a raid unless he/she is doing really badly (like doing 1/2 or 1/3 what others are doing). And if someone is diong so badly, the raid leader needs to know.

     

  • SwampRobSwampRob Member UncommonPosts: 1,003
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by demarc01

    Originally posted by FireFish


    I agree to a certain extent but it can be pretty useful if you are puging many instances and want to know if everyone in the group is pulling thier weight...  Can often explain why bosses are too hard to down etc if many DPS classes are underachieving..



     

    I'm assuming you play DPS lol.

    Bosses dont die just  because of DPS :)

    Healing could be the issuse. Cleansing? Mitigation could be a factor. (tank taking more DPS than healers can cope with?) 

    Not ragging on you .. but there are many more factors to a boss not dying than just the DPS underperforming. Sure if the boss is hitting an enrage timer while your tanks are golden and healers have power .. thats a DPS issue .. just making a point that these games are not just DPS centric :)



     

    You just say it. If the boss is hitting an enrage timer, you do need to know which dps to kick and which to keep. Can't do that without a meter. So it is ONE factor.

    Plus, higher dps always make the encounter easy. We go back to run H because of the new emblem change in wow. It is much easier now that you can burn down boss much faster. You still need to know if you can do that and that changes strategy.

    We are talking the general use of meters, not just dps meters. Some fights, numbers are not as important. And for some fights, numbers are important. Meters are just a tool to give you that information WHEN NEEDED.

    Oh there are addons telling if players are doing the right thing in teh fight too, not just pure dps/heal numbers. For example, there is an add that can tell if players are avoiding the firewall in the OS fight so you know who is being killed because they can't run the right pattern.

     

    If you enjoy this sort of thing, more power to ya.   To me, all this sounds like an incredibly stupidly designed fight.  I have no desire to play dance revolution (step here, wait for blue light, now step here) while I'm bashing heads.   I am so glad I quit Wow.

     

  • haratuharatu Member UncommonPosts: 409

    When I used to play I had a main that was a warlock, i was often critiqued for not taking the highest dps spec for my warlock... however when it came to the damage meters on bosses I was often higher. Why would that be so?

    Well it is quite simple really... I didn't die as much.

    Doesn't matter how much DPS you say you got, if you are dead you have 0 DPS.

  • SkuddSkudd Member Posts: 129
    Originally posted by SwampRob



    If you enjoy this sort of thing, more power to ya.   To me, all this sounds like an incredibly stupidly designed fight.  I have no desire to play dance revolution (step here, wait for blue light, now step here) while I'm bashing heads.   I am so glad I quit Wow.

     

    Considering the sheer amount of abysmaterribad players we run up against in PuGs who cant do anything other than stand in one place and dps, i am aslo very glad you quit WoW. 

     

     

     

    "It is my opinion, that my opinions are always right"

  • demarc01demarc01 Member UncommonPosts: 429
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by demarc01

    Originally posted by FireFish


    I agree to a certain extent but it can be pretty useful if you are puging many instances and want to know if everyone in the group is pulling thier weight...  Can often explain why bosses are too hard to down etc if many DPS classes are underachieving..



     

    I'm assuming you play DPS lol.

    Bosses dont die just  because of DPS :)

    Healing could be the issuse. Cleansing? Mitigation could be a factor. (tank taking more DPS than healers can cope with?) 

    Not ragging on you .. but there are many more factors to a boss not dying than just the DPS underperforming. Sure if the boss is hitting an enrage timer while your tanks are golden and healers have power .. thats a DPS issue .. just making a point that these games are not just DPS centric :)



     

    You just say it. If the boss is hitting an enrage timer, you do need to know which dps to kick and which to keep. Can't do that without a meter. So it is ONE factor.

    Plus, higher dps always make the encounter easy. We go back to run H because of the new emblem change in wow. It is much easier now that you can burn down boss much faster. You still need to know if you can do that and that changes strategy.

    We are talking the general use of meters, not just dps meters. Some fights, numbers are not as important. And for some fights, numbers are important. Meters are just a tool to give you that information WHEN NEEDED.

    Oh there are addons telling if players are doing the right thing in teh fight too, not just pure dps/heal numbers. For example, there is an add that can tell if players are avoiding the firewall in the OS fight so you know who is being killed because they can't run the right pattern.



     

    Not quite sure why you are trying to argue with me. Have you actually read my previous posts? Your arguing my points .. to me? /boggle. If you wanted to agree could have just said "yup" lol.

    BTW saying "Plus, higher dps always make the encounter easy." Is meaningless. I can say *Better tanking makes all encounters easier" or "Better healing makes all encounters easier" ... I was not making the argument that better DPS did not make encounters easier .. I was making the argument that Bosses dont just die because of DPS ... its a TEAM EFFORT.

    A boss could be hitting an Enrage timer because the Tank was slow repositioning it after phases and hence was delaying DPS. So a pure look at the DPS meter does NOT tell the whole story. "Oh look our DPS suxs .. blame the DPS" when in fact the DPS was fine but the tank wasted 8-10s on each phase positioning correctly. As you can see I am not bias towards or against DPS, as a raid leader I used all my "tools" and knew how to read the meters in relation to what I actually seen happening on the encounter ... giving someone a boss parse (Who was'ent there) is next to useless really since they dont know what actually happened and have no context.

    That has been my point from my very first post.

    Parsers are a tool used in conjunction with first-hand knowledge of what happened in the encounter. A parse alone is usless numbers.




  • demarc01demarc01 Member UncommonPosts: 429
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Leucent

    Originally posted by Xiaoki


    The meters are a tool that you can use to help improve yourself and your guild.
    With the meters I can check on DPS that is underperforming
    I can check on tanks taking damage that they shouldnt be
    I can check on dispells and interrupts, who is doing it and who isnt
    I can check on who is healing who and by how much
    I can check what damage people are taking that is avoidable
    Spamming the meters is not good practice and neither is using them for DPS contests. However, whats also not good is a level 80 Rogue doing 800 DPS in full epic gear. Whats not good is a tank dying because he didnt get any heals for 5 seconds. Whats not good is people standing in poison clouds.
    Like any tool, damage/healing meters are only good when properly used. If you use a hammer as a saw the results will be bad.
     

    See here in lies the problem. Back in the day when there were no meters, people played the game for fun, would learn from mistakes etc. Now people are all about how they can outperform everyone else. There is no need for such a tool in a game, IMO, because were all there to have fun and adapt to situations to make the experience better. It makes it all about me me me not us and that is a big problem with these meters IMO.

     



     

    If the boss enrages and everyone dies, how do you learn from teh mistake when you don't know which DPS who is not doing their rotation right and cause the wipe?

    You simply don't have the information to learn from mistakes and meters help with that.

    And from all i have seen, no one gets kicked out of a raid unless he/she is doing really badly (like doing 1/2 or 1/3 what others are doing). And if someone is diong so badly, the raid leader needs to know.

     



     

    Just a quick point.

    Yes the raid leader needs to know (unfortunatly WoW has gotten to the point that devs "expect" you to use meters and code encounters with that in mind)

    What happens next determines if your raid leader is a good one or a douche.

    A douche will kick the person and tell them to "L2P nub"

    A good raid leader will work with that member and help them improve so they are viable for the raid.

    Seems like your raid leader is a good one since you say they dont kick anyone unless they are doing "really badly* which is kewl. I've known alot of douchebags though in WoW. Personally I was seldom in that position b/c I did'ent accept very undergeared people into progression raids, Some seen it as me being and elitest prick .. most did'ent though since I was always more than willing to take those people to "on-farm" raids or help them with instance runs etc to gear up and be viable.




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