Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
General: Problems With MMOs? D&D 4ed has Answers
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
In his most recent Staff Blog entry, MMORPG.com's Jon Wood talks about some of the design problems with 4th edition and how those problems mirror some of the problems with MMO design today.
I know that I’ve talked about 4th Edition Dungeons and Dragons before on the site. When this new edition of the classic franchise made its debut back in May of 2008, I can remember comparing it to MMORPGs. I remember talking about how this new iteration of a classic RPG concept would help to revitalize a flagging pen and paper franchise by making it more appealing to the swath of new gamers that are flocking to today’s MMOs. I remember thinking that, all in all, the system had its problems but that in the end, it was going to be a good thing for both Dungeons and Dragons and MMOs.
I’ve since changed my tune. After taking a good, hard look at 4th Edition and taking in all that it has to offer, I have come to the conclusion that some of my initial impressions were right. Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition was clearly designed to be an MMO on paper. Among other things, it makes use of and actually recognizes classic MMO archetypes (healer, tank, DPS, etc), and it is designed in such a way that group play is necessary. The problem is that, at its core, Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition actually comes to represent a lot of what is wrong with today’s MMOs:
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
Glad you came around. I (along with many others) have been saying/thinking this since public knowledge of the 4.0 system came out. It was very clear that the folks at Wizard were trying to make a new DnD system that they could cash in on by have it so clearly mimic a WoW or LOTRO that some game company (Atari with Cryptic) would make an MMO out of it.
Well, the problem with that is the majority of DnD fans don't want that. They enjoy DnD because it had rulesets that supported non-combat play.
The toxic combination of WoW's success with the CEO's and Stock holders being the driving force behind video game creation is killing gaming as a whole. Games aren't made by people with a wide perspective of what a game world is. Deep systems that entertwine and make sense is a thing of the past. Now it's just, ad Gaute put it, combat, combat, combat.
And we are damned for it.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
That is the state of things now, but it won't stay that way forever. The nice thing about non-electronic gaming is that you can always use an older set of rules to play, or write your own. In the last 15 years, board gaming has had a resurgence. Many great games have been released in that time. Not to mention that there are many old PnP RPG systems still lurking in basements and atticks (and on harddrives). I myself have rulebooks for systems like Traveller, RuneQuest, Chivalry & Sorcery, Tunnels & Trolls, Powers & Perils, Dragonquest, etc.
The connectivity allowed by the internet provides the means to colaborate on any number of game systems. Not just sharing data, but also creating new material.
There are also many new web game using very unsual game systems, and I have seen a (very basic) form of Harvest Moon used in the Cultivation crafting system of Warhammer Online, for example.
If people are willing to make and try out niche games, then creativity will make itself seen. Just don't expect much from big-budget famous IP games.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Going totally off topic, but that little list made me cry for my lost youth.
Can i just quickly add, Bushido, Gamma World, Call of Cuthulu, Paranoia ......
Going totally off topic, but that little list made me cry for my lost youth.
Can i just quickly add, Bushido, Gamma World, Call of Cuthulu, Paranoia ......
Ah. I always wanted to try Bushido.
You know, those PnP designers could teach a lot to the current MMORPG developers.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Going totally off topic, but that little list made me cry for my lost youth.
Can i just quickly add, Bushido, Gamma World, Call of Cuthulu, Paranoia ......
Ah. I always wanted to try Bushido.
You know, those PnP designers could teach a lot to the current MMORPG developers.
Brilliant system, mine copy is carefully wrapped and preserved, but you can still purchase it online and it's one and only scenario. It beats Land of the Rising Sun (an expansion for C&S in case you missed it) for it's elegant simplicity and it's ability to make you feel heroic from day one, but LotRS had much more cultural depth to it, so i ended up combining the 2.
All that's wrong with MMOs? Seriously? The game is quick to get into, not bogged down in minutiae which gives you more time to focus on story, characters and fun. Some might find charts and wheels and all other of manner of ways to organize things fun to deal with but I'd imagine most people don't.
I've been playing D&D for a very long time and until 4e came out I was a stanch 1st ed AD&Der. 4e streamlined the play in the areas it needed to and I've since switched to it. The game play sessions are much more playing now than trying to figure out if you hit or not or crit or any manner of thing that requires rolls and charts.
Frankly I think the game has more of a board game mechanic than mmo though it has a mix of some of the terminology of each.
No it's not the original D&D but people said the same thing when they came out with Unearthed Arcana back in the 1e days.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
pen and paper has something MMORPGs have yet to master....
player freedom many MMOs are very narrow and structured about how charactors play even what they wear (stat gear) in some games you cant swim or boat im not talking extreems im just talking about some normally expected freedoms within limits. I hate the "rat in a maze" feel thats why I like skill based game types far more than premade classes
it allways anoyed me that if im a blacksmith ,, for some reason I cant comprehend how to fry an egg or grow corn I prefer that the higher you advance the more difficult it is to maintain every craft so you narrow your focus. i also hate that lower tier stuff is mostly useless junk and there is far too muc focus on combat support (armor and weapons) and not enough on other crafts like basket weaving and pottery smoking reying or salting(mainly used for food storage) candle making fletching a real fishing skill not just click and wait.
drama MMO players have little bond or loyalty to the game or npcs they could care less if an orphanage burned to the ground if there was no quest or loot involved
they dont kill the bad guy because hes just so evil they kill him because the quest requires it.
make a world, not a game, we dont want another game.
one issue here if d&d ruleset try to copy wow model it will fail.
how many time in a year you get ruleset change in d&d once a year maybe twice ,wow change so often even pro-gamer have a hard time to keep up
im a ll for modding their d&d ruleset to feel less like turn based and more action oriented so long as it doesnt loose what made them huge in the past.
especially them they got month to come up with a ruleset that will balance their game hell i bet its probably the most balanced ruleset of any game be it mmo or d&d style game.
i would love to know why d&d style and all those ,are so hard to put in a mmo ?is it because it was never ment to be played online?
if so then yes,d&d need new ways in order to make it possible to play 100k vs 100k player
brenth the part about proff is something i had never exp till i started playing eq2 last week-end!
yesterday i begin to learn how to do each prof or so i thot
its not like wow at all ,in wow its grind grind grind till your at max
lol in eq2 if you try to grind most of the prof will fail why,this!
say your doing a hammer ,metal get too hot you got to do the counter if its too cold you got to heat it up ,too soft ,too hard etc
its literally a minigame each freaking time you do 1 hammer and its happening in second and some icon are similar so its confusing i was like wtf im literally learning crafting in this game lol(eq2)
i played a bunch of game over the years and eq2 is the first game i saw with so deep a proff system
there prob are other but since i was playing wow in last 3 year i had it easy modecompared to eq2
LEXX THE BARBARIAN NOT KNOW WHAT BE THIS ROLE PLAY YOU SPEAK OFF. ME SMASH MONSTERS, ME GOOD AT IT! WHY YOU TRY HURT LEXX FEELINGS?
There's Role Playing in RPGS?
Excellent read and you hit the nail on the head completely. That is why I stopped at 3.5.
Log into UO hmm what am I going to do today.
Log into most other mmos hmm what am I going to kill today.
I am so tired of mindless killing with no thought of character developement.
Log into City of Heroes/Villians humm what am I going to wear today.
I completely agree. Our D&D group looked at the 4.0 ruleset laughed and continued with the 3.5 ones. I do not understand why all of a sudden everything is anti individualism. They want to straight jacket you into a very control class/level structure with nothing to differentiate your avatar.
Rumor has it that Cryptic is working on a new fantasy title using 4.0 rules. That is one game I will avoid like the plague and I hope a lot of people do too, if the rumor is true.
Everyone is making a big deal about Aion, when it is just another combat MMO like all the others with really nothing different to offer.
To be fair PnP MMO rules would work well for a CG MMO
Only if developers would get this idea through their heads. MMOs are supposed to be more then single player rpg with multi-player turned on.
one issue here if d&d ruleset try to copy wow model it will fail.
how many time in a year you get ruleset change in d&d once a year maybe twice ,wow change so often even pro-gamer have a hard time to keep up
im a ll for modding their d&d ruleset to feel less like turn based and more action oriented so long as it doesnt loose what made them huge in the past.
especially them they got month to come up with a ruleset that will balance their game hell i bet its probably the most balanced ruleset of any game be it mmo or d&d style game.
i would love to know why d&d style and all those ,are so hard to put in a mmo ?is it because it was never ment to be played online?
if so then yes,d&d need new ways in order to make it possible to play 100k vs 100k player
The turned base system is part of what makes DnD...well...DnD. Trying to take the turn-based combat out of it guts the spirit of the game. THe 4th ed system wouldn't be hard to put into an MMO because it was designed from the ground up just for that. They (Wizards) took out much of what made 3.5 and below what they were. They simplified alot (not that it was hard in the first place; a willingness to think was the only requirement) and made it into a combat oriented dice roll fest.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I agree.
I prefer to vote with my dollar and play Pathfinder RPG these days... it gives me all my 3.5 goodness, but fixed (well.. fixed enough :P )
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG
I agree.
I prefer to vote with my dollar and play Pathfinder RPG these days... it gives me all my 3.5 goodness, but fixed (well.. fixed enough :P )
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG
My group just went back to playing 3.5. Actually, right now we've taken a break from DnD. I'm running a Shadowrun campaign and on alternate weekends one of our other DMs is about to kick off a Gamma World campaign.
I get the paizo emails but never took time to look at Pathfinder. Guess I'll give it a look here in a bit.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I agree.
I prefer to vote with my dollar and play Pathfinder RPG these days... it gives me all my 3.5 goodness, but fixed (well.. fixed enough :P )
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG
My group just went back to playing 3.5. Actually, right now we've taken a break from DnD. I'm running a Shadowrun campaign and on alternate weekends one of our other DMs is about to kick off a Gamma World campaign.
I get the paizo emails but never took time to look at Pathfinder. Guess I'll give it a look here in a bit.
Gamma World? Hah, love that game... What Ed you guys playing? I've always liked 2nd myself.
Yeah, swing by and take a look at PF. Paizo do deserve your support, they appear to be that rarest of things... a company that gives a f%^& about game beyond solely exisiting to maximise profits.
I agree.
I prefer to vote with my dollar and play Pathfinder RPG these days... it gives me all my 3.5 goodness, but fixed (well.. fixed enough :P )
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG
My group just went back to playing 3.5. Actually, right now we've taken a break from DnD. I'm running a Shadowrun campaign and on alternate weekends one of our other DMs is about to kick off a Gamma World campaign.
I get the paizo emails but never took time to look at Pathfinder. Guess I'll give it a look here in a bit.
Gamma World? Hah, love that game... What Ed you guys playing? I've always liked 2nd myself.
Yeah, swing by and take a look at PF. Paizo do deserve your support, they appear to be that rarest of things... a company that gives a f%^& about game beyond solely exisiting to maximise profits.
Al these revamps to "broden the market" really have turned me off to PnP. I loved World of Darkness, even 3rd ed b ut then they wetn d20 and turned suck a great setting into basicly "just another vampire game"
I agree.
I prefer to vote with my dollar and play Pathfinder RPG these days... it gives me all my 3.5 goodness, but fixed (well.. fixed enough :P )
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG
My group just went back to playing 3.5. Actually, right now we've taken a break from DnD. I'm running a Shadowrun campaign and on alternate weekends one of our other DMs is about to kick off a Gamma World campaign.
I get the paizo emails but never took time to look at Pathfinder. Guess I'll give it a look here in a bit.
Gamma World? Hah, love that game... What Ed you guys playing? I've always liked 2nd myself.
Yeah, swing by and take a look at PF. Paizo do deserve your support, they appear to be that rarest of things... a company that gives a f%^& about game beyond solely exisiting to maximise profits.
We're trying out the newest version, the D20 compatible one. The last edition books we have are 4th edition. We've already decided to modify the mutations chart as it simply isn't large and diversified enough. That seems to be the theme with modern game development, be it pen and paper or electronic. They strive to get rid of choice. Narrowing something down to 3-4 options isn't real choice.
Anyway, we liked the settlement building options of the D20 version which is why we looked at it. I imagine it'll be a mix of 4th Edition and D20.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I agree.
I prefer to vote with my dollar and play Pathfinder RPG these days... it gives me all my 3.5 goodness, but fixed (well.. fixed enough :P )
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG
My group just went back to playing 3.5. Actually, right now we've taken a break from DnD. I'm running a Shadowrun campaign and on alternate weekends one of our other DMs is about to kick off a Gamma World campaign.
I get the paizo emails but never took time to look at Pathfinder. Guess I'll give it a look here in a bit.
Gamma World? Hah, love that game... What Ed you guys playing? I've always liked 2nd myself.
Yeah, swing by and take a look at PF. Paizo do deserve your support, they appear to be that rarest of things... a company that gives a f%^& about game beyond solely exisiting to maximise profits.
Al these revamps to "broden the market" really have turned me off to PnP. I loved World of Darkness, even 3rd ed b ut then they wetn d20 and turned suck a great setting into basicly "just another vampire game"
Ahh thats a shame... you shouldnt let not liking D20 turn you off PnP gaming... there are plenty of systems you can choose to play if you look around, or even if you play an older one like the 2nd Edition Gamma World I was talking about prefering.
You should have just carried on playing using the system that does it for you, theres no need to 'modernise' with PnP unless you want to. I know 2 groups that run regular games using the D&D rules compendium and AD&D, simply because thats what they prefer.
I agree.
I prefer to vote with my dollar and play Pathfinder RPG these days... it gives me all my 3.5 goodness, but fixed (well.. fixed enough :P )
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG
My group just went back to playing 3.5. Actually, right now we've taken a break from DnD. I'm running a Shadowrun campaign and on alternate weekends one of our other DMs is about to kick off a Gamma World campaign.
I get the paizo emails but never took time to look at Pathfinder. Guess I'll give it a look here in a bit.
Gamma World? Hah, love that game... What Ed you guys playing? I've always liked 2nd myself.
Yeah, swing by and take a look at PF. Paizo do deserve your support, they appear to be that rarest of things... a company that gives a f%^& about game beyond solely exisiting to maximise profits.
We're trying out the newest version, the D20 compatible one. The last edition books we have are 4th edition. We've already decided to modify the mutations chart as it simply isn't large and diversified enough. That seems to be the theme with modern game development, be it pen and paper or electronic. They strive to get rid of choice. Narrowing something down to 3-4 options isn't real choice.
Anyway, we liked the settlement building options of the D20 version which is why we looked at it. I imagine it'll be a mix of 4th Edition and D20.
Ahh, ok, havent run that so can't comment on it. I get what you are saying about the choice thing, but I guess the beauty of PnP RPGs though is that you have the freedom and ability to put the choice back in for yourselves, like you guys are doing. Hard to do that with a MMORPG
I agree.
I prefer to vote with my dollar and play Pathfinder RPG these days... it gives me all my 3.5 goodness, but fixed (well.. fixed enough :P )
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG
My group just went back to playing 3.5. Actually, right now we've taken a break from DnD. I'm running a Shadowrun campaign and on alternate weekends one of our other DMs is about to kick off a Gamma World campaign.
I get the paizo emails but never took time to look at Pathfinder. Guess I'll give it a look here in a bit.
Gamma World? Hah, love that game... What Ed you guys playing? I've always liked 2nd myself.
Yeah, swing by and take a look at PF. Paizo do deserve your support, they appear to be that rarest of things... a company that gives a f%^& about game beyond solely exisiting to maximise profits.
Al these revamps to "broden the market" really have turned me off to PnP. I loved World of Darkness, even 3rd ed b ut then they wetn d20 and turned suck a great setting into basicly "just another vampire game"
i would just use the Rev rulesi have if i could find a play group my comment was more on how WoD butchered their own lore to go "mainstream"
Ahh thats a shame... you shouldnt let not liking D20 turn you off PnP gaming... there are plenty of systems you can choose to play if you look around, or even if you play an older one like the 2nd Edition Gamma World I was talking about prefering.
You should have just carried on playing using the system that does it for you, theres no need to 'modernise' with PnP unless you want to. I know 2 groups that run regular games using the D&D rules compendium and AD&D, simply because thats what they prefer.