It does appear to be too little and way too late. The U.K. has no Constitution, and anything that Parliament passes is considered to be the supreme law. The success of monitoring people's travel habits, reading license plates, and mass surveillance is without question an enormous success in promoting the safety, health, and welfare of the American people. We ought to consider expanding this surveillance here in the states.
People come from troubled homes and have troubled parents. It is crucial that we be able to monitor what goes on in the home to intervene to correct the bad behavior.
It is common sense; it is a common safety concern.
Read George Orwell's 1984 and see if you still feel the same way after. This is only the beginning. BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING!!!
That isn't "another source", that's the source of the article you originally linked, and has already been disputed by Ed Balls outright via his Twitter account:
Who cares what Ed Balls disputes? He gets paid to lie to us.
I'm from the US, so I really had no idea who Ed was. I did some quick research on the UK's public opinion on the man, and I was under the impression that most people in Great Britain don't like Balls.
lol.. eh, I had to
Seriously though, I did a lot of reading and got the idea that he lies, a lot, and people in the UK tend to not like this person very much.
What is more disturbing is the bad journalism involved. How does:
'But Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: “This is all much too little, much too late. This Government has been in power for more than a decade during which time anti-social behaviour, family breakdown and problems like alcohol abuse and truancy have just got worse and worse.”
Become:
"And remember, this is the left-wing government. The Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling, batting for the conservatives, thinks these plans are “too little, and too late,” implying that even more obtrusive work needs to be done. Rumors that a new detention center, named Room 101, is being constructed inside the Ministry of Love are unconfirmed."
I wonder if the journalist that did that has actually read 1984... Winston Smith's job was to rewrite and revise old news reports to match the party's current propaganda...
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
What is more disturbing is the bad journalism involved. How does: 'But Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: “This is all much too little, much too late. This Government has been in power for more than a decade during which time anti-social behaviour, family breakdown and problems like alcohol abuse and truancy have just got worse and worse.” Become: "And remember, this is the left-wing government. The Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling, batting for the conservatives, thinks these plans are “too little, and too late,” implying that even more obtrusive work needs to be done. Rumors that a new detention center, named Room 101, is being constructed inside the Ministry of Love are unconfirmed." I wonder if the journalist that did that has actually read 1984... Winston Smith's job was to rewrite and revise old news reports to match the party's current propaganda...
It would be disturbing if it was similar to 1984, but it's not. In 1984, they would rewrite the news and destroy the previous, forever. The link posted is for a Wired article, which tends to write articles with a bit of a disconnect and a sense of humor. They link to the original article they cite, right next to that "changed paragraph". It's not like they're deploying a propagandist smoke-screen. They were making fun of the absurdity of it.. and rightfully so.
Besides, there are plenty of other sites/publications/media groups that are starting to surface this story. It's not like it's been twisted forever by 1 or 2 publications.
What is more disturbing is the bad journalism involved. How does: 'But Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: “This is all much too little, much too late. This Government has been in power for more than a decade during which time anti-social behaviour, family breakdown and problems like alcohol abuse and truancy have just got worse and worse.” Become: "And remember, this is the left-wing government. The Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling, batting for the conservatives, thinks these plans are “too little, and too late,” implying that even more obtrusive work needs to be done. Rumors that a new detention center, named Room 101, is being constructed inside the Ministry of Love are unconfirmed." I wonder if the journalist that did that has actually read 1984... Winston Smith's job was to rewrite and revise old news reports to match the party's current propaganda...
It would be disturbing if it was similar to 1984, but it's not. In 1984, they would rewrite the news and destroy the previous, forever. The link posted is for a Wired article, which tends to write articles with a bit of a disconnect and a sense of humor. They link to the original article they cite, right next to that "changed paragraph". It's not like they're deploying a propagandist smoke-screen. They were making fun of the absurdity of it.. and rightfully so.
Besides, there are plenty of other sites/publications/media groups that are starting to surface this story. It's not like it's been twisted forever by 1 or 2 publications.
Though I see what you're getting at..
If you saw what I was getting at the above wouldn't exist...
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
What is more disturbing is the bad journalism involved. How does: 'But Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: “This is all much too little, much too late. This Government has been in power for more than a decade during which time anti-social behaviour, family breakdown and problems like alcohol abuse and truancy have just got worse and worse.” Become: "And remember, this is the left-wing government. The Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling, batting for the conservatives, thinks these plans are “too little, and too late,” implying that even more obtrusive work needs to be done. Rumors that a new detention center, named Room 101, is being constructed inside the Ministry of Love are unconfirmed." I wonder if the journalist that did that has actually read 1984... Winston Smith's job was to rewrite and revise old news reports to match the party's current propaganda...
It would be disturbing if it was similar to 1984, but it's not. In 1984, they would rewrite the news and destroy the previous, forever. The link posted is for a Wired article, which tends to write articles with a bit of a disconnect and a sense of humor. They link to the original article they cite, right next to that "changed paragraph". It's not like they're deploying a propagandist smoke-screen. They were making fun of the absurdity of it.. and rightfully so.
Besides, there are plenty of other sites/publications/media groups that are starting to surface this story. It's not like it's been twisted forever by 1 or 2 publications.
Though I see what you're getting at..
If you saw what I was getting at the above wouldn't exist...
It was meant to have said, "I see what you're getting at.. but I believe you took it a little too far; hence the previous sentences . . . . . "
UPDATE: Further research shows that the Express didn’t quite have all its facts straight. This scheme is active, and the numbers are fairly accurate (if estimated), but the mentions of actual cameras in people’s homes are exaggerated. The truth is that the scheme can take the most troublesome families out of their homes and move them, temporarily, to a neutral, government-run compound. Here they will be under 24-hour supervision. CCTV cameras are not specifically mentioned, not are they denied, but 24-hour “supervision” certainly doesn’t rule this out from the camera-loving Brits.
It remains, though, that this is still excessively intrusive into the private lives of citizens, cameras or not. I have added links to the source and also more reliable reports. Thanks to everyone who wrote in.
So basically they put the British version of trailer trash and hood rat families under surveillance to make sure they actually do their job, is how I'm understanding this.
It means if they think you are about to beat your baby to death, they take you all into care until they know for sure, rather than splitting up the family.
It has nothing to do with camera's whatsoever. False alarm.
I predict babies under 24 hour government surveillance will die at the rate of 1 per year still anyway.
If there is one thing the BIg Brother conspiracists need to remember is that the government knowing what you are doing is quite another thing from the government being able to stop what you are doing or even being efficient enough to process that information in the first place.
You taxes will go up, but that's about the only thing that will change in your life when you enter a surveillance society.
Originally posted by aeroplane22 Originally posted by popinjay
Originally posted by aeroplane22
Originally posted by popinjay
Originally posted by aeroplane22
Eh, doesn't necessarily mean it's "dispelled". This is how politicians play their game. Maybe it was true in the beginning, maybe they still want to pursue it in the future.. definitely wouldn't rule that out. At the very least, I would say they were testing the waters.
Doesn't sound like a game to me.
The guy said there are no cameras. I really don't know what you expect other than.. heck, I don't know, lol. You think he's going to come out later and say "Psych your mind! We are putting cameras in!" or something?
You don't know it wasn't true in the beginning, you are just speculating and spitballing. Rumors happen all the time (Obama's not a citizen) then the guy says "Here.. proof." and people still say "That's just games politicians play."
Your "maybes" should stay hidden when people directly address a rumor. And until its found that there is proof of an actual plan somewhere, that's what it is.
Maybe.
There have been several articles on the subject, popinjay. I don't see why you are arrogantly refuting it. The notion wasn't just "made the fuck up" by some fringe conspiracy. It's on several publications, including Wired.. I'm pretty sure they got information from somewhere.
Yeah, I'm speculating.. imagine that. Trying to figure out where the articles got their roots.. jeez, I'm just a regular fool for even thinking about it huh? I never said he was going to pull a "Psych! Fooled you!" I'm simply saying that the CCTV notion came from somewhere, and maybe they are quickly dismissing it out of public backlash. Politicians do this.. I don't see how you can deny it like that. Do me a favor, next time you start a "trash the Right-wing" political thread, try not to speculate with any "maybe this" or "maybe that" or "what ifs".. Which is.. basically what you always do.
There have been several articles on Obama's "non citizenship" too. There have been several articles that lizardmen are secretly running the heads of the Bush/Royal families. There have been articles that the government started AIDS. I'm sure there's a basis for that too, right? Because.. some people wrote "articles", lol.
The guy said they aren't doing it. I don't know what more you want him to say other than "Well open up the files and let everyone look into MI-5". Stop feeding the nonsense just like you did with the Birthers.
Excuse me? Where the hell do you get off saying this has anything to do with the birthers? I've never believed in the birth certificate thing, I took it with a grain of salt and watched from the outside looking in.
Lizardmen.. lol
Government aids.. lol
This is the worst straw man ever.
I speculated on this story because CCTV is pretty damn common in the UK these days. So anything CCTV and surveillance along with the UK is going to catch my attention as something possibly legitimate.
As for your claim on "The guy said they aren't doing it" so therefore it must be false, is poor logic, at best. Some examples : --------------------------------------- "Read my lips, no new taxes." - George H.W. Bush , 1988 "I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky. I never told anybody to lie, not a single time; never. These allegations are false." - Bill Clinton , 1998 "The senator has his facts wrong. I have never suggested that there was a connection between 9/11 and Iraq." - Dick Cheney , 2004 "We don't homosexuals in Iran, like in your country. We don't have that here." - Ahmadinejad , 2007 "People have got to know whether or not their president is a crook. Well, I'm not a crook." - Richard Nixon, 1974
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Well, I guess since the politician "said so", it's a closed case, right?
They aren't putting cameras in people's homes. It's been addressed.
Anyone thinking that or entertaining that is a lunatic. End of story.
Gossip stories run all the time. This apparently is one of them.
Here's on Update from Wired: UPDATE: Further research shows that the Express didn’t quite have all its facts straight. This scheme is active, and the numbers are fairly accurate (if estimated), but the mentions of actual cameras in people’s homes are exaggerated. The truth is that the scheme can take the most troublesome families out of their homes and move them, temporarily, to a neutral, government-run compound. Here they will be under 24-hour supervision. CCTV cameras are not specifically mentioned, not are they denied, but 24-hour “supervision” certainly doesn’t rule this out from the camera-loving Brits. It remains, though, that this is still excessively intrusive into the private lives of citizens, cameras or not. I have added links to the source and also more reliable reports. Thanks to everyone who wrote in.
Responding to stories claiming that irresponsible families will be monitored by CCTV cameras in their own homes, a DCSF spokesperson said:
Families will not be monitored by CCTV in their own homes. Through Family Intervention Projects (FIPs) we are supporting and challenging the small number of families involved in persistent anti-social behaviour. FIP workers spend time observing families in their own homes, helping them to recognise that their anti-social behaviour is unacceptable. They focus on the causes of their behaviour, and challenge them to make changes so they can turn their lives around. A very small number of families who need further intensive support are placed in residential units with project workers living with them – this does not involve CCTV.
This is part of the Government’s approach to preventing and tackling anti-social behaviour and youth crime. In the last year alone, FIPs have challenged and supported over 2300 families to turn their behaviour around. Twelve months on from the Youth Crime Action Plan, Ed Balls and Alan Johnson have written to all local authorities in England asking them to expand and accelerate FIPs. Councils and police have reported that FIPs are an excellent way of preventing and tackling crime and anti-social behaviour.
What is more disturbing is the bad journalism involved. How does: 'But Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: “This is all much too little, much too late. This Government has been in power for more than a decade during which time anti-social behaviour, family breakdown and problems like alcohol abuse and truancy have just got worse and worse.” Become: "And remember, this is the left-wing government. The Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling, batting for the conservatives, thinks these plans are “too little, and too late,” implying that even more obtrusive work needs to be done. Rumors that a new detention center, named Room 101, is being constructed inside the Ministry of Love are unconfirmed." I wonder if the journalist that did that has actually read 1984... Winston Smith's job was to rewrite and revise old news reports to match the party's current propaganda...
It would be disturbing if it was similar to 1984, but it's not. In 1984, they would rewrite the news and destroy the previous, forever. The link posted is for a Wired article, which tends to write articles with a bit of a disconnect and a sense of humor. They link to the original article they cite, right next to that "changed paragraph". It's not like they're deploying a propagandist smoke-screen. They were making fun of the absurdity of it.. and rightfully so.
Besides, there are plenty of other sites/publications/media groups that are starting to surface this story. It's not like it's been twisted forever by 1 or 2 publications.
Though I see what you're getting at..
If you saw what I was getting at the above wouldn't exist...
It was meant to have said, "I see what you're getting at.. but I believe you took it a little too far; hence the previous sentences . . . . . "
Sorry for the confusion anyway.
I pointed out that the author of the second article decries the British government with tall tales found in the novel Nineteen Eighty-Four while he himself was guilty of it's underlining evil... How is that taking it too far?
It was very clear that the article was poor journalism, which the author himself has recognized in an update, but rather than admit his error openly in an honest way and retract his article, he bombards us with more of his brand of journalism - conjecture, lies, and implications.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
I got to say, seeing a police female in those black burkhas gives a sense of someone to not miss around with. All black and black hood... Police-Judge-Executioner.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
I always love when these journalists write an article that gets people all riled up, like this one, then a few days later they "update" it saying "oh wait i had the story 99% wrong, but thx for the publicity lul"
I think this is a good idea anything to help the police better understand the Muslim commmunity will help them do there jobs.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Eh, doesn't necessarily mean it's "dispelled". This is how politicians play their game. Maybe it was true in the beginning, maybe they still want to pursue it in the future.. definitely wouldn't rule that out.
At the very least, I would say they were testing the waters.
Doesn't sound like a game to me.
The guy said there are no cameras. I really don't know what you expect other than.. heck, I don't know, lol. You think he's going to come out later and say "Psych your mind! We are putting cameras in!" or something?
You don't know it wasn't true in the beginning, you are just speculating and spitballing. Rumors happen all the time (Obama's not a citizen) then the guy says "Here.. proof." and people still say "That's just games politicians play."
Your "maybes" should stay hidden when people directly address a rumor. And until its found that there is proof of an actual plan somewhere, that's what it is.
Maybe.
There have been several articles on the subject, popinjay. I don't see why you are arrogantly refuting it. The notion wasn't just "made the fuck up" by some fringe conspiracy. It's on several publications, including Wired.. I'm pretty sure they got information from somewhere.
Yeah, I'm speculating.. imagine that. Trying to figure out where the articles got their roots.. jeez, I'm just a regular fool for even thinking about it huh?
I never said he was going to pull a "Psych! Fooled you!" I'm simply saying that the CCTV notion came from somewhere, and maybe they are quickly dismissing it out of public backlash. Politicians do this.. I don't see how you can deny it like that.
Do me a favor, next time you start a "trash the Right-wing" political thread, try not to speculate with any "maybe this" or "maybe that" or "what ifs".. Which is.. basically what you always do.
There have been several articles on Obama's "non citizenship" too. There have been several articles that lizardmen are secretly running the heads of the Bush/Royal families. There have been articles that the government started AIDS. I'm sure there's a basis for that too, right? Because.. some people wrote "articles", lol.
The guy said they aren't doing it. I don't know what more you want him to say other than "Well open up the files and let everyone look into MI-5". Stop feeding the nonsense just like you did with the Birthers.
Excuse me? Where the hell do you get off saying this has anything to do with the birthers? I've never believed in the birth certificate thing, I took it with a grain of salt and watched from the outside looking in.
Lizardmen.. lol
Government aids.. lol
This is the worst straw man ever.
I speculated on this story because CCTV is pretty damn common in the UK these days. So anything CCTV and surveillance along with the UK is going to catch my attention as something possibly legitimate.
As for your claim on "The guy said they aren't doing it" so therefore it must be false, is poor logic, at best. Some examples :
---------------------------------------
"Read my lips, no new taxes." - George H.W. Bush , 1988
"I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky. I never told anybody to lie, not a single time; never. These allegations are false." - Bill Clinton , 1998
"The senator has his facts wrong. I have never suggested that there was a connection between 9/11 and Iraq." - Dick Cheney , 2004
"We don't homosexuals in Iran, like in your country. We don't have that here." - Ahmadinejad , 2007
"People have got to know whether or not their president is a crook. Well, I'm not a crook." - Richard Nixon, 1974
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Well, I guess since the politician "said so", it's a closed case, right?
They aren't putting cameras in people's homes. It's been addressed.
Anyone thinking that or entertaining that is a lunatic. End of story.
Gossip stories run all the time. This apparently is one of them.
You're being a bit dramatic. Are you familiar with The Young Turks? They're like a radio-panel show, they have a youtube channel etc. They even speculated on it and said it was ridiculous. By the way, they are as liberal as they come.
Come on man, be realistic. It's a news story, and it's not "gossip". It came from somewhere, and guess what.. it has actual grounds in reality, as they already have a program for it.
I think on this occassion, to understand the situation, you actually have to live in Britain. American's tend to have a very shielded view of Britain. Let me give you some background on the situation.
Some facts about Britain:
- It doesn't have a codified/written constitution, all law passed in the House of Commons becomes part of the 'consitution' like several other democracies around the world.
- We have had the traditionally 'left' party in power for the last 12 years but you must note that during this time period they can hardly be known as 'left' they moved towards the centre and became much more towards the Liberal side of the Political Spectrum, so please before you post about dumb leftists in power TAKE THIS INTO CONSIDERATION (PRECUSOR! - HINT).
- The current governments popularity has plummeted and would not do anything drastic to make the sitatuion worse, (for example putting CCTV cameras in homes).
- Britain does have a 'big brother' type of soceity. We have the most CCTV cameras in the world but they are not yet in our homes and almost definately will not be if the idea is unpopular because the current government is very wary of popularity with the gneral election coming up next year.
- Ed Balls is the head of the Department for Schools, Children and Families. His popularity is relatively average in comparison to most of his colleagues, no one hates him especially.
P.S. Precusor Don't try to derail with that Burkha picture because you really are blinded by the situation, there is a lot of racism in the police force and understanding other cultures would not go amiss, (believe me).
"If they can make Penicillin out of mouldy bread, they can sure make something out of you," - Muhammed Ali
Here's on Update from Wired: UPDATE: Further research shows that the Express didn’t quite have all its facts straight. This scheme is active, and the numbers are fairly accurate (if estimated), but the mentions of actual cameras in people’s homes are exaggerated. The truth is that the scheme can take the most troublesome families out of their homes and move them, temporarily, to a neutral, government-run compound. Here they will be under 24-hour supervision. CCTV cameras are not specifically mentioned, not are they denied, but 24-hour “supervision” certainly doesn’t rule this out from the camera-loving Brits. It remains, though, that this is still excessively intrusive into the private lives of citizens, cameras or not. I have added links to the source and also more reliable reports. Thanks to everyone who wrote in.
Responding to stories claiming that irresponsible families will be monitored by CCTV cameras in their own homes, a DCSF spokesperson said:
Families will not be monitored by CCTV in their own homes. Through Family Intervention Projects (FIPs) we are supporting and challenging the small number of families involved in persistent anti-social behaviour. FIP workers spend time observing families in their own homes, helping them to recognise that their anti-social behaviour is unacceptable. They focus on the causes of their behaviour, and challenge them to make changes so they can turn their lives around. A very small number of families who need further intensive support are placed in residential units with project workers living with them – this does not involve CCTV.
This is part of the Government’s approach to preventing and tackling anti-social behaviour and youth crime. In the last year alone, FIPs have challenged and supported over 2300 families to turn their behaviour around. Twelve months on from the Youth Crime Action Plan, Ed Balls and Alan Johnson have written to all local authorities in England asking them to expand and accelerate FIPs. Councils and police have reported that FIPs are an excellent way of preventing and tackling crime and anti-social behaviour.
I think on this occassion, to understand the situation, you actually have to live in Britain. American's tend to have a very shielded view of Britain. Let me give you some background on the situation. Some facts about Britain: - It doesn't have a codified/written constitution, all law passed in the House of Commons becomes part of the 'consitution' like several other democracies around the world. - We have had the traditionally 'left' party in power for the last 12 years but you must note that during this time period they can hardly be known as 'left' they moved towards the centre and became much more towards the Liberal side of the Political Spectrum, so please before you post about dumb leftists in power TAKE THIS INTO CONSIDERATION (PRECUSOR! - HINT). - The current governments popularity has plummeted and would not do anything drastic to make the sitatuion worse, (for example putting CCTV cameras in homes). - Britain does have a 'big brother' type of soceity. We have the most CCTV cameras in the world but they are not yet in our homes and almost definately will not be if the idea is unpopular because the current government is very wary of popularity with the gneral election coming up next year. - Ed Balls is the head of the Department for Schools, Children and Families. His popularity is relatively average in comparison to most of his colleagues, no one hates him especially. P.S. Precusor Don't try to derail with that Burkha picture because you really are blinded by the situation, there is a lot of racism in the police force and understanding other cultures would not go amiss, (believe me).
Excellent post. Thanks. However one minor "correction." Not really a correction, just a semantic difference. In Europe, "liberal" means people who believe in limited government and free markets. In America, we have to call them libertarian or economic conservatives, because the leftists hijacked the term decades ago. Today. "liberal" means left. Crazy, I know, but that's how polotics works I guess.
Kill the word to kill the concepts and take control.
I think on this occassion, to understand the situation, you actually have to live in Britain. American's tend to have a very shielded view of Britain. Let me give you some background on the situation. Some facts about Britain: - It doesn't have a codified/written constitution, all law passed in the House of Commons becomes part of the 'consitution' like several other democracies around the world. - We have had the traditionally 'left' party in power for the last 12 years but you must note that during this time period they can hardly be known as 'left' they moved towards the centre and became much more towards the Liberal side of the Political Spectrum, so please before you post about dumb leftists in power TAKE THIS INTO CONSIDERATION (PRECUSOR! - HINT). - The current governments popularity has plummeted and would not do anything drastic to make the sitatuion worse, (for example putting CCTV cameras in homes). - Britain does have a 'big brother' type of soceity. We have the most CCTV cameras in the world but they are not yet in our homes and almost definately will not be if the idea is unpopular because the current government is very wary of popularity with the gneral election coming up next year. - Ed Balls is the head of the Department for Schools, Children and Families. His popularity is relatively average in comparison to most of his colleagues, no one hates him especially. P.S. Precusor Don't try to derail with that Burkha picture because you really are blinded by the situation, there is a lot of racism in the police force and understanding other cultures would not go amiss, (believe me).
Excellent post. Thanks. However one minor "correction." Not really a correction, just a semantic difference. In Europe, "liberal" means people who believe in limited government and free markets. In America, we have to call them libertarian or economic conservatives, because the leftists hijacked the term decades ago. Today. "liberal" means left. Crazy, I know, but that's how polotics works I guess.
Kill the word to kill the concepts and take control.
Ah thank you, it explains a lot. When I read Faxxer calling 'leftists' liberal i was thinking what is he talking about but that cleared up a lot.
Thank you again.
"If they can make Penicillin out of mouldy bread, they can sure make something out of you," - Muhammed Ali
Here's on Update from Wired: UPDATE: Further research shows that the Express didn’t quite have all its facts straight. This scheme is active, and the numbers are fairly accurate (if estimated), but the mentions of actual cameras in people’s homes are exaggerated. The truth is that the scheme can take the most troublesome families out of their homes and move them, temporarily, to a neutral, government-run compound. Here they will be under 24-hour supervision. CCTV cameras are not specifically mentioned, not are they denied, but 24-hour “supervision” certainly doesn’t rule this out from the camera-loving Brits. It remains, though, that this is still excessively intrusive into the private lives of citizens, cameras or not. I have added links to the source and also more reliable reports. Thanks to everyone who wrote in.
Oh taking them away to government facilities is so much better.
Whew!
Well in that case.
WTF
In essence the abuse and.... Strangeness of this program leaves a person gaping, whats to say a person/family is a bad family.
Furthermore how can a Government run facility be consider "neutral". I mean if it's even just watching them it's creepy.
But what if this sets for motion a whole load of things only seen in Big Brother type books.
What if, this program is deemed successful and now they use it for other "problems" of society.
What if, eventually they decide to educate while in those compounds?
What if, eventually they decide to educate "other problems"?
It's not so much a problem as of now (though a bit...weird) but it could lead to even more intrusion, not saying it will. But it seems to be the gateway for a series of plans that could or could not happen eventually.
Here's on Update from Wired: UPDATE: Further research shows that the Express didn’t quite have all its facts straight. This scheme is active, and the numbers are fairly accurate (if estimated), but the mentions of actual cameras in people’s homes are exaggerated. The truth is that the scheme can take the most troublesome families out of their homes and move them, temporarily, to a neutral, government-run compound. Here they will be under 24-hour supervision. CCTV cameras are not specifically mentioned, not are they denied, but 24-hour “supervision” certainly doesn’t rule this out from the camera-loving Brits. It remains, though, that this is still excessively intrusive into the private lives of citizens, cameras or not. I have added links to the source and also more reliable reports. Thanks to everyone who wrote in.
Oh taking them away to government facilities is so much better.
Whew!
Well in that case.
WTF
In essence the abuse and.... Strangeness of this program leaves a person gaping, whats to say a person/family is a bad family.
Furthermore how can a Government run facility be consider "neutral". I mean if it's even just watching them it's creepy.
But what if this sets for motion a whole load of things only seen in Big Brother type books.
What if, this program is deemed successful and now they use it for other "problems" of society.
What if, eventually they decide to educate while in those compounds?
What if, eventually they decide to educate "other problems"?
It's not so much a problem as of now (though a bit...weird) but it could lead to even more intrusion, not saying it will. But it seems to be the gateway for a series of plans that could or could not happen eventually.
Actually it is.
The Catch 22 of social services is that they are more likely to irrepairably wreck a family than they are to save a child from abuse.
I cannot think of anything more evil than taking a loved child away from it's parents.
On the otherhand, children do get abused daily. I think taking the whole family into care is a lot preferable to just kidnapping the child and placing him in a state orphanage.
Sure it wouls suck to be that family, especially if that family was a good one, but it would suck more the other way.
On the conspiracy theory side, governments have been educating other problems from day one. Race issues, sex issues, disease, social conduct, sexuality. National History.
The governments don't have to lock you away to teach you what they want you to learn, they simply put it all in the national curriculam at schools.
Before you know it you will be singing about the evils of communism the joys of capitalism and how democracy is the greatest thing and how free you are and how gays, blacks and female bosses are all cool people that you like even if your dad hates them. Also you will learn to hate smoking, drugs, tax dodgers, and so on.
We are all products of the machine already. It's far too late to worry about that.
Comments
Read George Orwell's 1984 and see if you still feel the same way after. This is only the beginning. BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING!!!
Bren
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That isn't "another source", that's the source of the article you originally linked, and has already been disputed by Ed Balls outright via his Twitter account:
Who cares what Ed Balls disputes? He gets paid to lie to us.
I'm from the US, so I really had no idea who Ed was. I did some quick research on the UK's public opinion on the man, and I was under the impression that most people in Great Britain don't like Balls.
lol.. eh, I had to
Seriously though, I did a lot of reading and got the idea that he lies, a lot, and people in the UK tend to not like this person very much.
He is a politician mate.
They aren't world reknowned for their truthfulness.
I don't suppose Ed Balls is any more of a liar than any other politician or any less loved than any other politician in the U.K.
But a liar is a liar and he is a professional one.
What is more disturbing is the bad journalism involved. How does:
'But Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: “This is all much too little, much too late. This Government has been in power for more than a decade during which time anti-social behaviour, family breakdown and problems like alcohol abuse and truancy have just got worse and worse.”
Become:
"And remember, this is the left-wing government. The Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling, batting for the conservatives, thinks these plans are “too little, and too late,” implying that even more obtrusive work needs to be done. Rumors that a new detention center, named Room 101, is being constructed inside the Ministry of Love are unconfirmed."
I wonder if the journalist that did that has actually read 1984... Winston Smith's job was to rewrite and revise old news reports to match the party's current propaganda...
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
It would be disturbing if it was similar to 1984, but it's not. In 1984, they would rewrite the news and destroy the previous, forever. The link posted is for a Wired article, which tends to write articles with a bit of a disconnect and a sense of humor. They link to the original article they cite, right next to that "changed paragraph". It's not like they're deploying a propagandist smoke-screen. They were making fun of the absurdity of it.. and rightfully so.
Besides, there are plenty of other sites/publications/media groups that are starting to surface this story. It's not like it's been twisted forever by 1 or 2 publications.
Though I see what you're getting at..
It would be disturbing if it was similar to 1984, but it's not. In 1984, they would rewrite the news and destroy the previous, forever. The link posted is for a Wired article, which tends to write articles with a bit of a disconnect and a sense of humor. They link to the original article they cite, right next to that "changed paragraph". It's not like they're deploying a propagandist smoke-screen. They were making fun of the absurdity of it.. and rightfully so.
Besides, there are plenty of other sites/publications/media groups that are starting to surface this story. It's not like it's been twisted forever by 1 or 2 publications.
Though I see what you're getting at..
If you saw what I was getting at the above wouldn't exist...
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
It would be disturbing if it was similar to 1984, but it's not. In 1984, they would rewrite the news and destroy the previous, forever. The link posted is for a Wired article, which tends to write articles with a bit of a disconnect and a sense of humor. They link to the original article they cite, right next to that "changed paragraph". It's not like they're deploying a propagandist smoke-screen. They were making fun of the absurdity of it.. and rightfully so.
Besides, there are plenty of other sites/publications/media groups that are starting to surface this story. It's not like it's been twisted forever by 1 or 2 publications.
Though I see what you're getting at..
If you saw what I was getting at the above wouldn't exist...
It was meant to have said, "I see what you're getting at.. but I believe you took it a little too far; hence the previous sentences . . . . . "
Sorry for the confusion anyway.
Here's on Update from Wired:
UPDATE: Further research shows that the Express didn’t quite have all its facts straight. This scheme is active, and the numbers are fairly accurate (if estimated), but the mentions of actual cameras in people’s homes are exaggerated. The truth is that the scheme can take the most troublesome families out of their homes and move them, temporarily, to a neutral, government-run compound. Here they will be under 24-hour supervision. CCTV cameras are not specifically mentioned, not are they denied, but 24-hour “supervision” certainly doesn’t rule this out from the camera-loving Brits.
It remains, though, that this is still excessively intrusive into the private lives of citizens, cameras or not. I have added links to the source and also more reliable reports. Thanks to everyone who wrote in.
www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/08/britain-to-put-cctv-cameras-inside-private-homes/
fishermage.blogspot.com
So basically they put the British version of trailer trash and hood rat families under surveillance to make sure they actually do their job, is how I'm understanding this.
It means if they think you are about to beat your baby to death, they take you all into care until they know for sure, rather than splitting up the family.
It has nothing to do with camera's whatsoever. False alarm.
I predict babies under 24 hour government surveillance will die at the rate of 1 per year still anyway.
If there is one thing the BIg Brother conspiracists need to remember is that the government knowing what you are doing is quite another thing from the government being able to stop what you are doing or even being efficient enough to process that information in the first place.
You taxes will go up, but that's about the only thing that will change in your life when you enter a surveillance society.
Doesn't sound like a game to me.
The guy said there are no cameras. I really don't know what you expect other than.. heck, I don't know, lol. You think he's going to come out later and say "Psych your mind! We are putting cameras in!" or something?
You don't know it wasn't true in the beginning, you are just speculating and spitballing. Rumors happen all the time (Obama's not a citizen) then the guy says "Here.. proof." and people still say "That's just games politicians play."
Your "maybes" should stay hidden when people directly address a rumor. And until its found that there is proof of an actual plan somewhere, that's what it is.
Maybe.
There have been several articles on the subject, popinjay. I don't see why you are arrogantly refuting it. The notion wasn't just "made the fuck up" by some fringe conspiracy. It's on several publications, including Wired.. I'm pretty sure they got information from somewhere.
Yeah, I'm speculating.. imagine that. Trying to figure out where the articles got their roots.. jeez, I'm just a regular fool for even thinking about it huh?
I never said he was going to pull a "Psych! Fooled you!" I'm simply saying that the CCTV notion came from somewhere, and maybe they are quickly dismissing it out of public backlash. Politicians do this.. I don't see how you can deny it like that.
Do me a favor, next time you start a "trash the Right-wing" political thread, try not to speculate with any "maybe this" or "maybe that" or "what ifs".. Which is.. basically what you always do.
There have been several articles on Obama's "non citizenship" too. There have been several articles that lizardmen are secretly running the heads of the Bush/Royal families. There have been articles that the government started AIDS. I'm sure there's a basis for that too, right? Because.. some people wrote "articles", lol.
The guy said they aren't doing it. I don't know what more you want him to say other than "Well open up the files and let everyone look into MI-5". Stop feeding the nonsense just like you did with the Birthers.
Excuse me? Where the hell do you get off saying this has anything to do with the birthers? I've never believed in the birth certificate thing, I took it with a grain of salt and watched from the outside looking in.
Lizardmen.. lol
Government aids.. lol
This is the worst straw man ever.
I speculated on this story because CCTV is pretty damn common in the UK these days. So anything CCTV and surveillance along with the UK is going to catch my attention as something possibly legitimate.
As for your claim on "The guy said they aren't doing it" so therefore it must be false, is poor logic, at best. Some examples :
---------------------------------------
"Read my lips, no new taxes." - George H.W. Bush , 1988
"I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky. I never told anybody to lie, not a single time; never. These allegations are false." - Bill Clinton , 1998
"The senator has his facts wrong. I have never suggested that there was a connection between 9/11 and Iraq." - Dick Cheney , 2004
"We don't homosexuals in Iran, like in your country. We don't have that here." - Ahmadinejad , 2007
"People have got to know whether or not their president is a crook. Well, I'm not a crook." - Richard Nixon, 1974
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Well, I guess since the politician "said so", it's a closed case, right?
They aren't putting cameras in people's homes. It's been addressed.
Anyone thinking that or entertaining that is a lunatic. End of story.
Gossip stories run all the time. This apparently is one of them.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Responding to stories claiming that irresponsible families will be monitored by CCTV cameras in their own homes, a DCSF spokesperson said:
Families will not be monitored by CCTV in their own homes. Through Family Intervention Projects (FIPs) we are supporting and challenging the small number of families involved in persistent anti-social behaviour. FIP workers spend time observing families in their own homes, helping them to recognise that their anti-social behaviour is unacceptable. They focus on the causes of their behaviour, and challenge them to make changes so they can turn their lives around. A very small number of families who need further intensive support are placed in residential units with project workers living with them – this does not involve CCTV.
This is part of the Government’s approach to preventing and tackling anti-social behaviour and youth crime. In the last year alone, FIPs have challenged and supported over 2300 families to turn their behaviour around. Twelve months on from the Youth Crime Action Plan, Ed Balls and Alan Johnson have written to all local authorities in England asking them to expand and accelerate FIPs. Councils and police have reported that FIPs are an excellent way of preventing and tackling crime and anti-social behaviour.
http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/news/content.cfm?landing=family_intervention_projects&type=1
--------------
The whole camera thing is outright refuted, be it in private homes or the mentioned residential changes contrary to what that Wired writer reports.
It would be disturbing if it was similar to 1984, but it's not. In 1984, they would rewrite the news and destroy the previous, forever. The link posted is for a Wired article, which tends to write articles with a bit of a disconnect and a sense of humor. They link to the original article they cite, right next to that "changed paragraph". It's not like they're deploying a propagandist smoke-screen. They were making fun of the absurdity of it.. and rightfully so.
Besides, there are plenty of other sites/publications/media groups that are starting to surface this story. It's not like it's been twisted forever by 1 or 2 publications.
Though I see what you're getting at..
If you saw what I was getting at the above wouldn't exist...
It was meant to have said, "I see what you're getting at.. but I believe you took it a little too far; hence the previous sentences . . . . . "
Sorry for the confusion anyway.
I pointed out that the author of the second article decries the British government with tall tales found in the novel Nineteen Eighty-Four while he himself was guilty of it's underlining evil... How is that taking it too far?
It was very clear that the article was poor journalism, which the author himself has recognized in an update, but rather than admit his error openly in an honest way and retract his article, he bombards us with more of his brand of journalism - conjecture, lies, and implications.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
I got to say, seeing a police female in those black burkhas gives a sense of someone to not miss around with. All black and black hood... Police-Judge-Executioner.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
I always love when these journalists write an article that gets people all riled up, like this one, then a few days later they "update" it saying "oh wait i had the story 99% wrong, but thx for the publicity lul"
I think this is a good idea anything to help the police better understand the Muslim commmunity will help them do there jobs.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Doesn't sound like a game to me.
The guy said there are no cameras. I really don't know what you expect other than.. heck, I don't know, lol. You think he's going to come out later and say "Psych your mind! We are putting cameras in!" or something?
You don't know it wasn't true in the beginning, you are just speculating and spitballing. Rumors happen all the time (Obama's not a citizen) then the guy says "Here.. proof." and people still say "That's just games politicians play."
Your "maybes" should stay hidden when people directly address a rumor. And until its found that there is proof of an actual plan somewhere, that's what it is.
Maybe.
There have been several articles on the subject, popinjay. I don't see why you are arrogantly refuting it. The notion wasn't just "made the fuck up" by some fringe conspiracy. It's on several publications, including Wired.. I'm pretty sure they got information from somewhere.
Yeah, I'm speculating.. imagine that. Trying to figure out where the articles got their roots.. jeez, I'm just a regular fool for even thinking about it huh?
I never said he was going to pull a "Psych! Fooled you!" I'm simply saying that the CCTV notion came from somewhere, and maybe they are quickly dismissing it out of public backlash. Politicians do this.. I don't see how you can deny it like that.
Do me a favor, next time you start a "trash the Right-wing" political thread, try not to speculate with any "maybe this" or "maybe that" or "what ifs".. Which is.. basically what you always do.
There have been several articles on Obama's "non citizenship" too. There have been several articles that lizardmen are secretly running the heads of the Bush/Royal families. There have been articles that the government started AIDS. I'm sure there's a basis for that too, right? Because.. some people wrote "articles", lol.
The guy said they aren't doing it. I don't know what more you want him to say other than "Well open up the files and let everyone look into MI-5". Stop feeding the nonsense just like you did with the Birthers.
Excuse me? Where the hell do you get off saying this has anything to do with the birthers? I've never believed in the birth certificate thing, I took it with a grain of salt and watched from the outside looking in.
Lizardmen.. lol
Government aids.. lol
This is the worst straw man ever.
I speculated on this story because CCTV is pretty damn common in the UK these days. So anything CCTV and surveillance along with the UK is going to catch my attention as something possibly legitimate.
As for your claim on "The guy said they aren't doing it" so therefore it must be false, is poor logic, at best. Some examples :
---------------------------------------
"Read my lips, no new taxes." - George H.W. Bush , 1988
"I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky. I never told anybody to lie, not a single time; never. These allegations are false." - Bill Clinton , 1998
"The senator has his facts wrong. I have never suggested that there was a connection between 9/11 and Iraq." - Dick Cheney , 2004
"We don't homosexuals in Iran, like in your country. We don't have that here." - Ahmadinejad , 2007
"People have got to know whether or not their president is a crook. Well, I'm not a crook." - Richard Nixon, 1974
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Well, I guess since the politician "said so", it's a closed case, right?
They aren't putting cameras in people's homes. It's been addressed.
Anyone thinking that or entertaining that is a lunatic. End of story.
Gossip stories run all the time. This apparently is one of them.
You're being a bit dramatic. Are you familiar with The Young Turks? They're like a radio-panel show, they have a youtube channel etc. They even speculated on it and said it was ridiculous. By the way, they are as liberal as they come.
Come on man, be realistic. It's a news story, and it's not "gossip". It came from somewhere, and guess what.. it has actual grounds in reality, as they already have a program for it.
But go ahead and call everyone a lunatic.
I think on this occassion, to understand the situation, you actually have to live in Britain. American's tend to have a very shielded view of Britain. Let me give you some background on the situation.
Some facts about Britain:
- It doesn't have a codified/written constitution, all law passed in the House of Commons becomes part of the 'consitution' like several other democracies around the world.
- We have had the traditionally 'left' party in power for the last 12 years but you must note that during this time period they can hardly be known as 'left' they moved towards the centre and became much more towards the Liberal side of the Political Spectrum, so please before you post about dumb leftists in power TAKE THIS INTO CONSIDERATION (PRECUSOR! - HINT).
- The current governments popularity has plummeted and would not do anything drastic to make the sitatuion worse, (for example putting CCTV cameras in homes).
- Britain does have a 'big brother' type of soceity. We have the most CCTV cameras in the world but they are not yet in our homes and almost definately will not be if the idea is unpopular because the current government is very wary of popularity with the gneral election coming up next year.
- Ed Balls is the head of the Department for Schools, Children and Families. His popularity is relatively average in comparison to most of his colleagues, no one hates him especially.
P.S. Precusor Don't try to derail with that Burkha picture because you really are blinded by the situation, there is a lot of racism in the police force and understanding other cultures would not go amiss, (believe me).
"If they can make Penicillin out of mouldy bread, they can sure make something out of you," - Muhammed Ali
Responding to stories claiming that irresponsible families will be monitored by CCTV cameras in their own homes, a DCSF spokesperson said:
Families will not be monitored by CCTV in their own homes. Through Family Intervention Projects (FIPs) we are supporting and challenging the small number of families involved in persistent anti-social behaviour. FIP workers spend time observing families in their own homes, helping them to recognise that their anti-social behaviour is unacceptable. They focus on the causes of their behaviour, and challenge them to make changes so they can turn their lives around. A very small number of families who need further intensive support are placed in residential units with project workers living with them – this does not involve CCTV.
This is part of the Government’s approach to preventing and tackling anti-social behaviour and youth crime. In the last year alone, FIPs have challenged and supported over 2300 families to turn their behaviour around. Twelve months on from the Youth Crime Action Plan, Ed Balls and Alan Johnson have written to all local authorities in England asking them to expand and accelerate FIPs. Councils and police have reported that FIPs are an excellent way of preventing and tackling crime and anti-social behaviour.
http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/news/content.cfm?landing=family_intervention_projects&type=1
--------------
The whole camera thing is outright refuted, be it in private homes or the mentioned residential changes contrary to what that Wired writer reports.
Yup, seems like some bad reporting all around. Thanks again, Sepher.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Excellent post. Thanks. However one minor "correction." Not really a correction, just a semantic difference. In Europe, "liberal" means people who believe in limited government and free markets. In America, we have to call them libertarian or economic conservatives, because the leftists hijacked the term decades ago. Today. "liberal" means left. Crazy, I know, but that's how polotics works I guess.
Kill the word to kill the concepts and take control.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Excellent post. Thanks. However one minor "correction." Not really a correction, just a semantic difference. In Europe, "liberal" means people who believe in limited government and free markets. In America, we have to call them libertarian or economic conservatives, because the leftists hijacked the term decades ago. Today. "liberal" means left. Crazy, I know, but that's how polotics works I guess.
Kill the word to kill the concepts and take control.
Ah thank you, it explains a lot. When I read Faxxer calling 'leftists' liberal i was thinking what is he talking about but that cleared up a lot.
Thank you again.
"If they can make Penicillin out of mouldy bread, they can sure make something out of you," - Muhammed Ali
Oh taking them away to government facilities is so much better.
Whew!
Well in that case.
WTF
In essence the abuse and.... Strangeness of this program leaves a person gaping, whats to say a person/family is a bad family.
Furthermore how can a Government run facility be consider "neutral". I mean if it's even just watching them it's creepy.
But what if this sets for motion a whole load of things only seen in Big Brother type books.
What if, this program is deemed successful and now they use it for other "problems" of society.
What if, eventually they decide to educate while in those compounds?
What if, eventually they decide to educate "other problems"?
It's not so much a problem as of now (though a bit...weird) but it could lead to even more intrusion, not saying it will. But it seems to be the gateway for a series of plans that could or could not happen eventually.
I think this is a good idea anything to help the police better understand the Muslim commmunity will help them do there jobs.
Learning to pick up the phone when someone dials 999 would probably help them do their jobs a little more.
Oh taking them away to government facilities is so much better.
Whew!
Well in that case.
WTF
In essence the abuse and.... Strangeness of this program leaves a person gaping, whats to say a person/family is a bad family.
Furthermore how can a Government run facility be consider "neutral". I mean if it's even just watching them it's creepy.
But what if this sets for motion a whole load of things only seen in Big Brother type books.
What if, this program is deemed successful and now they use it for other "problems" of society.
What if, eventually they decide to educate while in those compounds?
What if, eventually they decide to educate "other problems"?
It's not so much a problem as of now (though a bit...weird) but it could lead to even more intrusion, not saying it will. But it seems to be the gateway for a series of plans that could or could not happen eventually.
Actually it is.
The Catch 22 of social services is that they are more likely to irrepairably wreck a family than they are to save a child from abuse.
I cannot think of anything more evil than taking a loved child away from it's parents.
On the otherhand, children do get abused daily. I think taking the whole family into care is a lot preferable to just kidnapping the child and placing him in a state orphanage.
Sure it wouls suck to be that family, especially if that family was a good one, but it would suck more the other way.
On the conspiracy theory side, governments have been educating other problems from day one. Race issues, sex issues, disease, social conduct, sexuality. National History.
The governments don't have to lock you away to teach you what they want you to learn, they simply put it all in the national curriculam at schools.
Before you know it you will be singing about the evils of communism the joys of capitalism and how democracy is the greatest thing and how free you are and how gays, blacks and female bosses are all cool people that you like even if your dad hates them. Also you will learn to hate smoking, drugs, tax dodgers, and so on.
We are all products of the machine already. It's far too late to worry about that.