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Cash for Clunkers proves stimulus is actually working

OzarumonOzarumon Member Posts: 107

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20603037&sid=aZQsGa9XbZGY



Cash for Clunkers needing more money may sound like a bad thing but when put into actual context its actually a success.

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Comments

  • DekronDekron Member UncommonPosts: 7,358

    If it proves any stimulus works, it proves that the money should be given to the taxpayer, not the government, to spend to invest in the economy.

  • OzarumonOzarumon Member Posts: 107
    Originally posted by Dekron


    If it proves any stimulus works, it proves that the money should be given to the taxpayer, not the government, to spend to invest in the economy.

     

    No it does not because that did not work under GWB.JRs stimulus plan to give the tax payer money. They either saved it or payed bills with it.

  • FishermageFishermage Member Posts: 7,562
    Originally posted by Ozarumon

    Originally posted by Dekron


    If it proves any stimulus works, it proves that the money should be given to the taxpayer, not the government, to spend to invest in the economy.

     

    No it does not because that did not work under GWB.JRs stimulus plan to give the tax payer money. They either saved it or payed bills with it.

     

    Saving money means putting it into a bank. They then loan it and it has a multiplier effect throughout the economy. If they pay bills with it the company they pay reinvests the money and it has a similat multiplier effect.

    The problem with George Bush's tax cuts was not the tax cuts -- it was the reckless spending. We need to cut taxes AND government spending. Keep the spending on the side of the citizen because they are far more likely to choose productive investments than the government.

    Social engineering usually amounts to a boondoggle and waste, whether it be cash for clunkers or the CRA, which is one of the causes of the housing boom and bust we had.

     

  • MardyMardy Member Posts: 2,213

    Until this country gets out of debt, everything you see is only temporary, not sustainable. Thanks to cash for clunkers, this country goes further into debt.

    EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO

  • FaxxerFaxxer Member Posts: 3,247

    http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/31/dealers-race-to-get-their-clunkers-crushed/?hp

    Sounds more like a 3 ring circus.

    This is a disaster in every form.

    And the SAME ppl that want to run a nat'l healthcare program are running this.

     

    enough said.

  • DailyBuzzDailyBuzz Member Posts: 2,306
    Originally posted by Faxxer



    enough said.

     

    enough said

  • olddaddyolddaddy Member Posts: 3,356
    Originally posted by Dekron


    If it proves any stimulus works, it proves that the money should be given to the taxpayer, not the government, to spend to invest in the economy.



     

    Actually, it proves the money should be given to the individual comsumer, not the taxpayer (which includes corporations) in order for the consumer to decide which products and industries are worthy of a "bailout".

    By giving the money directly to the investment banks, and the corporations, the government runs the risk of accomplishing nothing. Maintaining the status quo.

    Investment banks are not reducing unemployment, and putting people back to work. They do not create demand for a product to counter the continuing cost cutting by business.

    Similiarly, giving the money directly to corporations does nothing to increase demand for their product. 

    This program shows that "trickle down" is a joke, whether it be trickle down from the wealthy, from Wall Street, or from Corporate America. It shows that stimulating demand leads to increased sales, increased profits, and expansion. It is why business uses sales reps, marketing departments, and advertising to bring in more customers, rather than sit on their money and wait for customers to magically appear. Production (supply) doesn't drive economics, demand does.

    The economy declines when demand declines. Hundreds of millions of individual American consumers make this country's economy go.  

  • olddaddyolddaddy Member Posts: 3,356
    Originally posted by Mardy


    Until this country gets out of debt, everything you see is only temporary, not sustainable. Thanks to cash for clunkers, this country goes further into debt.



     

    Except that when consumers spend money buying a product like a car, business can bring more people back onto the employment rolls to make another car. Those employees called back to work are now contributing to the tax base.

    If that business has profits as a result of increased sales, that business is now contributing to the tax base.

    Every single time the dollar changes hands the government collects taxes. The better the economy does, the faster the dollar turns, the more tax revenue the government receives.

    The problem is what the government does with that tax revenue when times are good, and they are generating a surplus. Like kids in the candy store, they immediately think they have to go out and spend that surplus. It burns a hole in their pocket.

    Consequently, there is never tax cuts, or even a fund balance to cover increased stimulus costs when the economy turns down.

    It's a helluva way to run an airline.......spend like there's no tomorrow and hold no funds in reserve.

     

  • DekronDekron Member UncommonPosts: 7,358
    Originally posted by olddaddy
    Actually, it proves the money should be given to the individual comsumer

    That's what I was getting at.

  • FaxxerFaxxer Member Posts: 3,247
    Originally posted by DailyBuzz

    Originally posted by Faxxer



    enough said.

     

    enough said



     

    You cite auto maker stock prices going up as success?

    By that standard the bank bailout must have been like winning the lottery to you.

    It's taxpayer dollars being redistrubuted. period.

    and the government is doing a poor administrative job to boot.

    i thought libs didn't like when corporations got profits?  oh wait, it's Government run motors now, ok nm.

  • BrianshoBriansho Member UncommonPosts: 3,586

    Borrow more money from China to fund plan, has to pay China back with interest.

    People turn in decent functional equipment for new car, now they are in debt and are now paying China back.

    Plan runs out of money,  Govt borrows more money to continue plan, having to pay China back again..

    More people turn in fully functioning vehicles, basically property being destroyed, and more go into debt.

    How long can we keep borrowing money before they stop loaning it?

    We will be forever in debt to China or whoever will let us keep borrowing money.

    Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!

  • olddaddyolddaddy Member Posts: 3,356
    Originally posted by Briansho


    How long can we keep borrowing money before they stop loaning it?



     

    As long as we keep buying Chinese manufactured products, raising the standard of living in China, quite awhile.

    If they cut us off from the credit, there will be nobody to buy their products. Their people will lose their jobs, and their economy will suffer.

    It's not as if any of the world currency in circulation is actually worth anything.

    It's only worth what people are willing to trade.

     

  • frodusfrodus Member Posts: 2,396

    The government owns GM and Chrysler !! now the Government is giving you your money to buy a car from them..Am i the only one that see's the folly of this plan...WTF..

    Trade in material assumptions for spiritual facts and make permanent progress.

  • TrizicTrizic Member Posts: 76
    Originally posted by frodus


    The government owns GM and Chrysler !! now the Government is giving you your money to buy a car from them..Am i the only one that see's the folly of this plan...WTF..

     

    Isn't that even better for the taxpayers then? That just means that by using all that money for the enviorment purpose has another side effect of making the government more money?

    "A stupid idea to you is the memory of a lifetime for me"

  • frodusfrodus Member Posts: 2,396

    Free Money Runs Out, Congress Authorizes More.With $1 billion already wasted Lawmakers Vote on $2 Billion More to Replenish ‘Clunkers’ Program.

    Michael J. Jackson, chief executive of AutoNation Inc. said "It was an absolute success. There's a very compelling case the government should put more money into it. It's a great stimulus to the economy."

    Actually a very compelling case can be made that the CEO of AutoNation is an economic illiterate. All the program does is shift demand forward. Those clunkers were going to die at some point. Now sales are up this year which will cut into next year's demand, at the expense of everyone not getting free money.

    Why anyone should be surprised at the "success" in generating demand for free money is beyond me. There is always demand for free money. Yet, interestingly, everyone seems surprised by the "unexpected success".

    If the government wants more "success", it can give everyone $4,500 for a car. Short-term demand will soar. But long-term demand for cars would crash for the next few years, taxpayers would be stuck with the bills, and valuable resources would be wasted on cars rather than productive assets.

    Thus, the "absolute success" touted by AutoNation is in reality a tragedy. Handing out free money always is. Indeed, the more free money handed out, the bigger the ultimate tragedy. The housing crash is poof enough.

     

    We are F**KED.



     

    Trade in material assumptions for spiritual facts and make permanent progress.

  • DracusDracus Member Posts: 1,449
    Originally posted by Faxxer

    ...
    And the SAME ppl that want to run a nat'l healthcare program are running this.
     ...

    The Cash for Clunkers is an example of how finely and efficiently the Federal Government can run its national programs, imagine how it can run a much larger and bigger budgeted program...

    /end sarcasm



    The irony though is I do like the Cash for Clunkers program...

    And that is why...

    Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.

  • JosherJosher Member Posts: 2,818
    Originally posted by Dracus

    Originally posted by Faxxer

    ...
    And the SAME ppl that want to run a nat'l healthcare program are running this.
     ...

    The Cash for Clunkers is an example of how finely and efficiently the Federal Government can run its national programs, imagine how it can run a much larger and bigger budgeted program...

    /end sarcasm



    The irony though is I do like the Cash for Clunkers program...

    The overall purpose of the program, to get junkers off the road, is admirable.  But why should my money be given to people to buy newer cars?  THAT's the stupid part.   In all of this, I won't be seeing a damn dime of anything.  My money will just keep getting sucked away, never to return, since I don't plan on there being a medicare type program by the time I need to use it.  I just see all my money going to illegals, the poor and the iresponsible.  My kids won't be eligable for any handouts.  I certainly have never been eligable for anything.  Too responsible, too hard working, not poor enough and far too white and jewish;)   Nothing free for me.  How fair.

  • DracusDracus Member Posts: 1,449
    Originally posted by Josher


    The overall purpose of the program, to get junkers off the road, is admirable.  But why should my money be given to people to buy newer cars?  THAT's the stupid part.   In all of this, I won't be seeing a damn dime of anything.  My money will just keep getting sucked away, never to return, since I don't plan on there being a medicare type program by the time I need to use it.  I just see all my money going to illegals, the poor and the iresponsible.  My kids won't be eligable for any handouts.  I certainly have never been eligable for anything.  Too responsible, too hard working, not poor enough and far too white and jewish;)   Nothing free for me.  How fair.

    The reason I liked this program is that it does... well did, act as a stimulant to get people to spend (hopefully responsibly ... key word there).  Also I would like to believe that these older cars taken off the road would provide for cleaner air (I don't care about CO2 emissions, it just that other stuff which causes brown skies).

    But I do understand your point, of giving our money towards others for their own personal gain.  I would agree to it, except during times of an economic situation as this and only pertaining to this specific program.  Now for the rest of what you said, I'm right there with you.

    And that is why...

    Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.

  • CleffyCleffy Member RarePosts: 6,246

    I think any form of stimulus with the current state of the United States is simply a terrible idea.  In order to provide for a stimulus we have to either borrow or print money.  Considering the United States has limited manufacturing now, doing a stimulus is like borrowing money from Germany and Japan then giving it back to them by buying their cars.  We don't have a demand problem in the United States so a stimulus will just have a short term positive effect and a long term negative effect.

    We have needed to correct problems with our system for some time in order to bring back manufacturing to the United States.  If we took the licking back in 2007, we would already be at a more healthy point in regards to manufacturing.  The problems with development in the United States is the price of living is too high, Unions limit unskilled workers and overpay skilled workers, payroll taxes makes taking on new employees expensive and time consuming, and the minimum wage edges a majority of students out of unskilled jobs that build skill.  Since the outset of this recession we have not done what needed to be done to correct these.  That being the reduction or elimination of minimum wage, the reduction of the federal government and entitlement programs in order to reduce payroll taxes, and letting the economy slip so long standing companies who are under union control can fail and the price of living reduced.  We have done the opposite.

    Cash for clunkers is just another one of these stimulus programs that prevents correction from happening.  At this point the only way the market can correct itself is if the Fed finally bellies up from deficit spending and interest.

  • MardyMardy Member Posts: 2,213
    Originally posted by Josher
    The overall purpose of the program, to get junkers off the road, is admirable.  But why should my money be given to people to buy newer cars?  THAT's the stupid part.   In all of this, I won't be seeing a damn dime of anything.  My money will just keep getting sucked away, never to return, since I don't plan on there being a medicare type program by the time I need to use it.  I just see all my money going to illegals, the poor and the iresponsible.  My kids won't be eligable for any handouts.  I certainly have never been eligable for anything.  Too responsible, too hard working, not poor enough and far too white and jewish;)   Nothing free for me.  How fair.

     

    That's exactly how I feel, except I'm neither white or black, so I'm a neutral faction around here =)   I keep waiting for the government to reward people that do the right things, or people that are responsible with their money.  As is, if you play by the rules, don't get into debt, you work hard and earn your money, you live within your means, you get absolutely no break.  Why not be fair and give the same credit for everybody, since those money people are getting are coming out of my pockets?  

     

    And don't get me started on how they did this for the environment.  There are a lot more environmental friendly cars with much better millage than the required 18-22MPG.  If they did this for the environment, then they should've had a higher standard, and push for more hybrids to be sold.  If they truly did it for the environment and required people to get hybrid cars, I would've been 100% supportive of this despite my tax dollars going into it.  I'm willing to spend some money to make the environment better and get us away from sucking foreign oil.  But we all know as is right now, this program is not going to change much because they only require you to buy cars with 22MPG and no hybrid requirement.

     

    EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO

  • PorfatPorfat Member Posts: 364
    Originally posted by Ozarumon

    Originally posted by Dekron


    If it proves any stimulus works, it proves that the money should be given to the taxpayer, not the government, to spend to invest in the economy.

     

    No it does not because that did not work under GWB.JRs stimulus plan to give the tax payer money. They either saved it or payed bills with it.



     

    Dammit.  What part of our money don't people understand.  I don't mind paying taxes for necessary things but to give my money to someone else to spend is just wrong. 

    Government should get out to the business of redistributing money. 

  • popinjaypopinjay Member Posts: 6,539


    Originally posted by Porfat
    Originally posted by Ozarumon
    Originally posted by Dekron If it proves any stimulus works, it proves that the money should be given to the taxpayer, not the government, to spend to invest in the economy.
     
    No it does not because that did not work under GWB.JRs stimulus plan to give the tax payer money. They either saved it or payed bills with it.

    Government should get out to the business of redistributing money. 


    Yeah, the government in the U.S. should be more like the one in England where.. oh wait.

    Well, it should be more like Canad..


    err.. Fran...


    err.. Jap..


    err... Germa..

    err... Austra...


    err.. Ita..

    err...Venezu...

    err... Norwa...


    err... hmm.

    Welcome to the world, United States. About time we joined the rest of humanity. Now, about that healthcare...

  • EkibiogamiEkibiogami Member UncommonPosts: 2,154
    Originally posted by popinjay


     

    Originally posted by Porfat


    Originally posted by Ozarumon


    Originally posted by Dekron
     
    If it proves any stimulus works, it proves that the money should be given to the taxpayer, not the government, to spend to invest in the economy.



     

    No it does not because that did not work under GWB.JRs stimulus plan to give the tax payer money. They either saved it or payed bills with it.


     

    Government should get out to the business of redistributing money. 


     

    Yeah, the government in the U.S. should be more like the one in England where.. oh wait.

    Well, it should be more like Canad..



    err.. Fran...



    err.. Jap..



    err... Germa..

     

    err... Austra...



    err.. Ita..

     

    err...Venezu...

     

    err... Norwa...



    err... hmm.

     

    Welcome to the world, United States. About time we joined the rest of humanity. Now, about that healthcare...



     

    Yeah its a good thing were lowering our standards.

    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
    —Samuel Adams

  • FaxxerFaxxer Member Posts: 3,247
    Originally posted by popinjay


     

    Originally posted by Porfat


    Originally posted by Ozarumon


    Originally posted by Dekron
     
    If it proves any stimulus works, it proves that the money should be given to the taxpayer, not the government, to spend to invest in the economy.



     

    No it does not because that did not work under GWB.JRs stimulus plan to give the tax payer money. They either saved it or payed bills with it.


     

    Government should get out to the business of redistributing money. 


     

    Yeah, the government in the U.S. should be more like the one in England where.. oh wait.

    Well, it should be more like Canad..



    err.. Fran...



    err.. Jap..



    err... Germa..

     

    err... Austra...



    err.. Ita..

     

    err...Venezu...

     

    err... Norwa...



    err... hmm.

     

    Welcome to the world, United States. About time we joined the rest of humanity. Now, about that healthcare...

    Maybe you fogot about how the argument on healthcare ended with your silence on the other thread?

     

    How about you go back to that thread if you got something of substance, but as i rememer all liberals stopped when a few facts stopped you all cold.

  • AstropuyoAstropuyo Member UncommonPosts: 2,018
    Originally posted by Ozarumon


    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20603037&sid=aZQsGa9XbZGY


    Cash for Clunkers needing more money may sound like a bad thing but when put into actual context its actually a success.

     

    Yeah, it really works.

    It works towards getting rid of "clunkers" out of the market so one must buy new or near new.

    It has in essence made "poor" people unable to buy some 250,000 cars that poor folks won't be able to buy.

    You must be of mind that not all those cars were "clunkers" but so much as trade in's.

     

    Yet more transportation denied to the lower castes.

     

    So yes , it worked very well. In destroying what could of been perfectly good cars, so John A Citizen could get that new shiny model.

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