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Amazon Kindle Case and MMOs

Beatnik59Beatnik59 Member UncommonPosts: 2,413

I just saw that a lawsuit was filed against Amazon for deleting an eBook off of someone's Kindle eBook reader.  To me, this is something that was long overdue, and I think it will only make MMO publishers think twice before going to town on someone's software.

I like this line from Jay Edelson especially:

"Amazon.com had no more right to hack into people's Kindles than its customers have the right to hack into Amazon's bank account to recover a mistaken overpayment...Technology companies increasingly feel that because they have the ability to access people's personal property, they have the right to do so. That is 100 percent contrary to the laws of this country."

 

__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken

"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

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Comments

  • KillerEwokKillerEwok Member UncommonPosts: 119

    what does this have to do with MMOs exactly?

  • weslubowweslubow Member UncommonPosts: 163

    The right to remove or add to the Kindle is covered under the user agreement.

    Yes, they have reserved the right to do so.

    This is a frivolous lawsuit.

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Member UncommonPosts: 2,413

    Basically that this new "eBusiness" model that says "we can give or take anything we want from your technology platform at any time and for any reason" is coming under attack.

    That includes MMOs I'd imagine, because they also claim a prerogative to add and delete stuff at will with little recourse for the consumer.

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • weslubowweslubow Member UncommonPosts: 163

    Just for fun read the Windows user agreement.

    Microsoft reserves the rights for all kinds of things.

  • rikiliirikilii Member UncommonPosts: 1,084
    Originally posted by Beatnik59


    Basically that this new "eBusiness" model that says "we can give or take anything we want from your technology platform at any time and for any reason" is coming under attack.
    That includes MMOs I'd imagine, because they also claim a prerogative to add and delete stuff at will with little recourse for the consumer.

     

    What are you talking about?  What "technology platform" are you referring to?

    ____________________________________________
    im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Member RarePosts: 5,484
    Originally posted by weslubow


    The right to remove or add to the Kindle is covered under the user agreement.
    Yes, they have reserved the right to do so.
    This is a frivolous lawsuit.



     

    Actually it's not. Amazon has already backed off,  apologized, and promised never to do it again. . It's an uninforceable provision and they were about to lose their ass. They actually broke the privacy laws by monitoring the content of another person's equipment. Know your rights people.

    "We have met the enemy and he is us." ~Pogo Possum. 

  • DameonkDameonk Member UncommonPosts: 1,914
    Originally posted by rikilii

    Originally posted by Beatnik59


    Basically that this new "eBusiness" model that says "we can give or take anything we want from your technology platform at any time and for any reason" is coming under attack.
    That includes MMOs I'd imagine, because they also claim a prerogative to add and delete stuff at will with little recourse for the consumer.

     

    What are you talking about?  What "technology platform" are you referring to?

     

    *blink*  Really?  I would answer you if the answer wasn't in the title to the thread.

    "There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."

  • rikiliirikilii Member UncommonPosts: 1,084
    Originally posted by Dameonk

    Originally posted by rikilii

    Originally posted by Beatnik59


    Basically that this new "eBusiness" model that says "we can give or take anything we want from your technology platform at any time and for any reason" is coming under attack.
    That includes MMOs I'd imagine, because they also claim a prerogative to add and delete stuff at will with little recourse for the consumer.

     

    What are you talking about?  What "technology platform" are you referring to?

     

    *blink*  Really?  I would answer you if the answer wasn't in the title to the thread.

     

    How do MMOs involve taking things from your technology platform (I assume by this he means "your computer" which would have been a hell of a lot easier to say).

    ____________________________________________
    im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good

  • KillerEwokKillerEwok Member UncommonPosts: 119
    Originally posted by rikilii

    Originally posted by Dameonk

    Originally posted by rikilii

    Originally posted by Beatnik59


    Basically that this new "eBusiness" model that says "we can give or take anything we want from your technology platform at any time and for any reason" is coming under attack.
    That includes MMOs I'd imagine, because they also claim a prerogative to add and delete stuff at will with little recourse for the consumer.

     

    What are you talking about?  What "technology platform" are you referring to?

     

    *blink*  Really?  I would answer you if the answer wasn't in the title to the thread.

     

    How do MMOs involve taking things from your technology platform (I assume by this he means "your computer" which would have been a hell of a lot easier to say).

    I'm thinking he is referring to companies removing or adding stuff to your computer if you are a player of one of their MMOs? if so, i never heard of something like this happening before

  • DameonkDameonk Member UncommonPosts: 1,914
    Originally posted by rikilii




    How do MMOs involve taking things from your technology platform (I assume by this he means "your computer" which would have been a hell of a lot easier to say).

     

    In the context of the post he was referring specifically to the Kindle.

    Using the term "technology platform" when describing software means the software itself. 

    Such as iTunes is a technology platform.

    So when referring to MMO games the game itself would be the technology platform.  What the OP is basically saying is that if an MMO game deleted virtual items you had paid real money for then there might be legal action that can be taken at that point.

    I have never heard of this happening and MMO games are a little different format than the Kindle e-books.  One thing is with the Kindle you are paying for the actual virtual copy of the book.  Once you pay you own the book, you aren't renting it.

    With an MMO game you are paying a subscription to the service, you have no rights to anything in the virtual world because you didn't actually pay specifically for it, just for the access to the game.

    An interesting thing might come up sometime (or it may never happen) with the micro-transaction games, though.  If you pay for a blue flying dragon and then a few weeks later the developers change the color to red.  Well you hate red so you ask for your money back or the original product you paid for.   This would be a similar case to the Kindle lawsuit.

    Edit:  Sorry about not giving a real answer to the question earlier, I thought it was obvious what the OP was referring to.

    "There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504


    Originally posted by KillerEwok
    I'm thinking he is referring to companies removing or adding stuff to your computer if you are a player of one of their MMOs? if so, i never heard of something like this happening before

    Eh? Nearly every MMO I know adds or modifies files on your computer (in the install folder, and a few other places.) And sometimes I imagine those files are removed as well.

    Hopefully that's not considered the same, legally, as removing an entire digital purchase. It'd suck if game companies had to worry about never being able to delete files from their install on your system.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • KillerEwokKillerEwok Member UncommonPosts: 119
    Originally posted by Axehilt


     

    Originally posted by KillerEwok

    I'm thinking he is referring to companies removing or adding stuff to your computer if you are a player of one of their MMOs? if so, i never heard of something like this happening before

     

    Eh? Nearly every MMO I know adds or modifies files on your computer (in the install folder, and a few other places.) And sometimes I imagine those files are removed as well.

    Hopefully that's not considered the same, legally, as removing an entire digital purchase. It'd suck if game companies had to worry about never being able to delete files from their install on your system.

     

    well of course they add and remove files in the install folder, you are after all installing a game, and patching it later on.  I meant like stuff that isn't part of the game but the company decided to remove or modify anyway, since it is the company's imperative to  edit your game files if they so please.

    what I meant was i never heard of someone complaining their MMO launcher decided to remove their My Documents folder while patching or something like that, except the one boot.ini thing with CCP lol

  • dethgardethgar Member Posts: 293

    Companies are beginning to realize that Terms of Service may not be enough for them to do as they see fit. Regardless of what may be in a ToS or EULA, a company has no right to monitor or modify your original copy unless you explicitly allow them to. So in terms of MMO's, when they shut down or are subject to a widespread change (NGE), they may be required to provide a platform to play the original version of the product, in this case either classic servers or a release of server software.

  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,218

    Kindle is not the same as mmo's, obviously.  In the case of kindle the user can fairly claim that he paid for the virtual book and has an expectation of ownership.  You cannot make the same claim on that virtual sword.  You didnt pay cash to buy the sword and you dont have a receipt to prove it.  edit: I suppose with cash shops that could be questionable.

     

    As far as the legality of modifying files on your computer go, well thats like a rental not a purchase.  You dont own the right to monthly service.  If you want to deny them the ability to modify the files that is your right, and it is their right to discontinue your service.

  • GyrusGyrus Member UncommonPosts: 2,413
    Originally posted by weslubow


    The right to remove or add to the Kindle is covered under the user agreement.
    Yes, they have reserved the right to do so.
    This is a frivolous lawsuit.

    See?  Here we are again ... as soon as the legality of an EULA / ToS is questioned in the slightest one of these "The EULA lets them do whatevertehhelltheywant" posts appears.

    Coincidence?

     

    *waves and smiles at the probable software company shill* ;-)

     

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  • ArndurArndur Member Posts: 2,202
    Originally posted by dethgar


    Companies are beginning to realize that Terms of Service may not be enough for them to do as they see fit. Regardless of what may be in a ToS or EULA, a company has no right to monitor or modify your original copy unless you explicitly allow them to. So in terms of MMO's, when they shut down or are subject to a widespread change (NGE), they may be required to provide a platform to play the original version of the product, in this case either classic servers or a release of server software.



     

    Ummm did they make you buy a new copy of SWG with NGE? No so your original copy still works they just changed the game. Also no they should not be forced to release their game if a company goes under.

    Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.

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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,306

    If you are a plumber it is hard to convince your customers they need more plumbing. If you are a lawyer part of your job is convincing people we need more laws, more contesting of laws, more lawsuits and more counter lawsuits.

    It is in the law profession’s interest that the law is not absolute and is always open to interpretation. Otherwise they would not have a job.

    So take this case with the pinch of salt you should take with all new legal cases. In the public interest, maybe. In the interest of the lawyers involved pockets, definitely.

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  • GyrusGyrus Member UncommonPosts: 2,413
    Originally posted by Scot


    If you are a plumber it is hard to convince your customers they need more plumbing. If you are a lawyer part of your job is convincing people we need more laws, more contesting of laws, more lawsuits and more counter lawsuits.
    It is in the law profession’s interest that the law is not absolute and is always open to interpretation. Otherwise they would not have a job.
    So take this case with the pinch of salt you should take with all new legal cases. In the public interest, maybe. In the interest of the lawyers involved pockets, definitely.

     

    Hmmm.  Interesting.

    Last time (a challenge to the EULA was discussed) you suggested the person laying the case was in need of a Counsellor so the case had no merit...(possibly true about that persons state but beside the point) and this time it's just greedy lawyers?

    Did you ever even consider the possibility that maybe sometimes consumers think "HEY! I payed for a good or service here!  Maybe I am entitled to a fair deal and maybe the 'agreement' I was forced to sign is a little unfair or does not give them the right to do what ever the hell they want?"

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  • rikiliirikilii Member UncommonPosts: 1,084
    Originally posted by Dameonk

    Originally posted by rikilii




    How do MMOs involve taking things from your technology platform (I assume by this he means "your computer" which would have been a hell of a lot easier to say).

     

    In the context of the post he was referring specifically to the Kindle.

    Using the term "technology platform" when describing software means the software itself. 

    Such as iTunes is a technology platform.

    So when referring to MMO games the game itself would be the technology platform.  What the OP is basically saying is that if an MMO game deleted virtual items you had paid real money for then there might be legal action that can be taken at that point.

    I have never heard of this happening and MMO games are a little different format than the Kindle e-books.  One thing is with the Kindle you are paying for the actual virtual copy of the book.  Once you pay you own the book, you aren't renting it.

    With an MMO game you are paying a subscription to the service, you have no rights to anything in the virtual world because you didn't actually pay specifically for it, just for the access to the game.

    An interesting thing might come up sometime (or it may never happen) with the micro-transaction games, though.  If you pay for a blue flying dragon and then a few weeks later the developers change the color to red.  Well you hate red so you ask for your money back or the original product you paid for.   This would be a similar case to the Kindle lawsuit.

    Edit:  Sorry about not giving a real answer to the question earlier, I thought it was obvious what the OP was referring to.

     

    So basically he's whining about something that's never actually happened (an MMO publisher "going to town on your software")?

    ____________________________________________
    im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good

  • ZorvanZorvan Member CommonPosts: 8,912
    Originally posted by rikilii

    Originally posted by Dameonk

    Originally posted by rikilii




    How do MMOs involve taking things from your technology platform (I assume by this he means "your computer" which would have been a hell of a lot easier to say).

     

    In the context of the post he was referring specifically to the Kindle.

    Using the term "technology platform" when describing software means the software itself. 

    Such as iTunes is a technology platform.

    So when referring to MMO games the game itself would be the technology platform.  What the OP is basically saying is that if an MMO game deleted virtual items you had paid real money for then there might be legal action that can be taken at that point.

    I have never heard of this happening and MMO games are a little different format than the Kindle e-books.  One thing is with the Kindle you are paying for the actual virtual copy of the book.  Once you pay you own the book, you aren't renting it.

    With an MMO game you are paying a subscription to the service, you have no rights to anything in the virtual world because you didn't actually pay specifically for it, just for the access to the game.

    An interesting thing might come up sometime (or it may never happen) with the micro-transaction games, though.  If you pay for a blue flying dragon and then a few weeks later the developers change the color to red.  Well you hate red so you ask for your money back or the original product you paid for.   This would be a similar case to the Kindle lawsuit.

    Edit:  Sorry about not giving a real answer to the question earlier, I thought it was obvious what the OP was referring to.

     

    So basically he's whining about something that's never actually happened (an MMO publisher "going to town on your software")?



     

    The key issue wasn't that they took it but how they took it. They were monitoring customers kindles in order to find what they felt should be removed, resulting in invasion of privacy.

    Now, how could this affect mmos? Well, let's see.  All anti-cheat/anti-hack systems such as Gameguard, Warden, etc. monitor your pc for software they don't like and either disabling it or even removing your ability to play by getting you banned. Blizzard already had to make concessions on Warden, limiting it to checking for emulator's running in your ram while playing, whereas originally Warden monitored your PC as a whole.

    I could see enough lawsuits of this type eventually making it required for game companies to build their games with all anti-cheat/anti-hacking measures completely server side with no physical interaction with the customers hardware.

  • rikiliirikilii Member UncommonPosts: 1,084
    Originally posted by Zorvan 
    I could see enough lawsuits of this type eventually making it required for game companies to build their games with all anti-cheat/anti-hacking measures completely server side with no physical interaction with the customers hardware.

     

    Unless, of course, the T&Cs say "we're going to install monitoring software with the game, and if you don't like it, don't play."

    ____________________________________________
    im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good

  • GyrusGyrus Member UncommonPosts: 2,413
    Originally posted by Zorvan

    ...
    I could see enough lawsuits of this type eventually making it required for game companies to build their games with all anti-cheat/anti-hacking measures completely server side with no physical interaction with the customers hardware.

    Maybe.

    But the issue isn't that they may be able to get this information or do these things - its more how they handle it from then on.

    This is where the "The EULA lets them do what ever the hell they want!" crowd fall flat.

    No, no agreement lets you do that.  There are other laws and agreements in place too.

    For example - you give your credit card info to a MMO company - can they do what they want with it?  No.  Not only do they have an agreement with you but there are privacy laws... and even more serious than that is their agreement with the Credit Card provider.  Companies like Visa, MasterCard and Amex take this sort of stuff very seriously.  If a business violates the confidentially of the system they can and will deny service.  That could destroy an MMO company - it would be worse than any fine you would get from breaching a privacy law.

    But, from time to time things happen and companies do come by information they shouldn't have - or at least they shouldn't act on or pass on.  In some businesses it happens every day.

    The decider is what happens next.

    A responsible company would say "We could do this (technically)... but we wont."

    And that is perhaps what some businesses in the 'computer / IT industry' need to be reminded of.

    Technically there is nothing to stop say Micro$oft putting in a small util into their OS that tracks every bit of software you install and run and then sends all that info back to M$ everytime you go on the net.

    They could call it a 'real time market survey utility' or a 'piracy monitoring utility'.  But should they?

     

    BTW Zorvan, I know YOU know this... more for people who don't think of implications.

     

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  • GyrusGyrus Member UncommonPosts: 2,413
    Originally posted by rikilii

    Originally posted by Zorvan 
    I could see enough lawsuits of this type eventually making it required for game companies to build their games with all anti-cheat/anti-hacking measures completely server side with no physical interaction with the customers hardware.

     

    Unless, of course, the T&Cs say "we're going to install monitoring software with the game, and if you don't like it, don't play."

     

    Exactly.

     

    Did you hear about Spore BTW?

    If you don't like the DRM don't buy it.....

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,306

    The sort of counsellor I was talking about in the other thread Gyrus was a mental health counsellor. :)

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  • GyrusGyrus Member UncommonPosts: 2,413
    Originally posted by Scot


    The sort of counsellor I was talking about in the other thread Gyrus was a mental health counsellor. :)

     

    Yes.  I realise that.

    So, my point was that in that thread you suggested the plantiff has mental issues and in this one the plantiff's lawyer is just out to generate work to make money?

    Don't you think its possible (in either case) that maybe the plantiffs (consumers) may have payed for a service and thought "I am not getting a fair deal?"

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

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