Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Afraid Aion endgame will become like WAR endgame?

2

Comments

  • AntariousAntarious Member UncommonPosts: 2,834
    Originally posted by Wolfenpride


    The problem with WAR was the BG's sucked players who just wanted to pvp all the time into them, leaving very few attackers and defenders for open rvr
    Aion has no battlegrounds, and hopefully never will, so players looking for pvp action will hopefully respond immediately to any attacks on their keeps, or rally for keep takes.



     

    Meh... I personally thought Nordenwatch (T1 BG) was fun for a bit.  I never liked any of the higher level BG's.

     

    The main issue I found was the War Band would go to a pairing that the enemy War Band wasn't in.  They would then rotate around pairings PvE'ing keeps and Objectives.  Which to me was boring as hell...

     

    Saying we should attack or defend was like vulgarity to most.  In fact I remember the war band running from keeps because there was ONE defender.  I was also on one of the most populated servers at the time I was playing... it was just sad.

     

    People would say "well you can do your own thing.."   Sure you can.. but when you are that 1 defender and the WB actually decided to attack anyway .. its not ending well for you.

     

    If I find that people go into the Abyss to PvE and try to avoid the other side... I might just cancel.  If I actually liked the game I wouldjust stay out of the Abyss (if that was going on) and wait for someone to come through a rift... or something.  WAR had the problem that I didn't find the game interesting other than when I got in a very  few actual keep takes/defense.  If that had actually happened more I would have stayed and put up with the crap I didn't like.

     

    Can't say I really fear Aion will turn into that.  Plus the fact every game I've bought in the last couple years has just been a waste of cash... so its almost expected.

  • Tenken29Tenken29 Member Posts: 151

    It maybe fun though to get everyone interested in PVP to join the same server if they had an interest. Plus you'd know who from what forum is joining it.

    Pledge your support to creating a PvP Community on Aion. Join our server on release.
    http://aionfactions.homelinux.com

  • Tenken29Tenken29 Member Posts: 151

    bump

    Pledge your support to creating a PvP Community on Aion. Join our server on release.
    http://aionfactions.homelinux.com

  • 7Fold7Fold Member Posts: 318

    Well some of Warhammers idea's were solid, just implemented poorily. For instance as I was leveling this weekend on Aion, I found myself wanting to reach up to the right side corner an hit the scenerio's button. And a nice Tomb of Knowledge would be sweet as well as the PQ's in WAR.

     

    Of course I would have loved to have had AION's awesome game engine in WAR, in which is the ultimate killer in WAR.

  • Tenken29Tenken29 Member Posts: 151
    Originally posted by Honeymoon69


    its not like WAR b/c
    #1 BO and keeps have timers before they can be retaken.
    #2 high rank will  make u change ur playstyle b/c the amount of the abyss point u will lose when u die.
    #3 plenty of pve to get better gears and abyss point so ppl will be spread out.
     
     
     
     



     

    The concern about it being like WAR is if people just PVE for Abyss points. To my understanding you don't have to be in a bo/keep to pve abyss points, or am I mistaken?

    Pledge your support to creating a PvP Community on Aion. Join our server on release.
    http://aionfactions.homelinux.com

  • Tenken29Tenken29 Member Posts: 151

    ***Update***

    Still waiting to decide what server to roll on. Still collaborating with other forums.

     

    Pledge your support to creating a PvP Community on Aion. Join our server on release.
    http://aionfactions.homelinux.com

  • EthianEthian Member Posts: 1,216
    Originally posted by Sigilaea

    Originally posted by Wighty


    The issue is the fact that you can gain high Abyss rank without technically ever seeing another enemy faction player. Raiding Balaur keeps gives HUGE AP, as do some of the abyss Campaign quests even at the lower lvls a lvl 30ish aby quest gives 1500 abyss points.
     
    One of the main problems with this is that it makes abyss rank count for nothing. everyone will basically farm their way up the ranks and then do everything possible to protect their ranks.
     
    As other posters have mentioned once you pass the scrub ranks of soldier you lose exponential points at death in relation to the points you may actually gain for killing another player... So NO ONE is going to leave the safety of their guild, keep, fortress, home town etc, in risk of losing the artificial prestige of having a high ranking title which again may have nothing to do with actual PvP.
     
    As the OP said this runs the risk of players simply farming the PvE content as they do in WAR with PvP being a mere inconvenience in doing so, instead of PvP being the actual goal.
     
    In the NA beta as a lvl 25 player if you kill a lvl 27 Balaur type mob you will get 11k XP and 12-14 AP per kill. Keeps are supposed to give thousands.
     
    MMO's have turned into one big grind in some form or another, be it grinding for XP, faction, gold, crafting mats, or some form of reward points. This is fine and acceptable... the issue is when the grind detracts from one of the core elements of the game which in this case is PvP.

    One possible solution to the scenario you mention is to make player kills worth more than npc kills. Alot more. Also, to mitigate the high loss of upper ranks, maybe give buffs/skills to higher ranks to help them defend themselves? These skills could add utility to the player and would serve as a good carrot for  levelling their rank. Skills like teleport 20 feet away, or summoning low level PC minions to  help.

    There is room here for a creative developer to not only overcome the problem you m ention, but make it fun for both sides as well...



     

    I think thats the biggest question. NCsofts responses and actions to possible problems down the road will dictate Aions success. I truely wish the best for Aion and its future but if NCsoft doesnt listen to the players, I think Aion will become another average MMO at best. 

    "I play Tera for the gameplay"

  • neonwireneonwire Member Posts: 1,787
    Originally posted by SaintViktor


    When you reach max level what is there to do other than raid and pvp ? 



     

    I dont know the answer to your question.......but what would you expect to be doing once you have reached the end of a story driven game? There isnt much to do in ANY game once you have completed all the content now is there.

  • scodavisscodavis Member Posts: 190
    Originally posted by neonwire

    Originally posted by SaintViktor


    When you reach max level what is there to do other than raid and pvp ? 



     

    I dont know the answer to your question.......but what would you expect to be doing once you have reached the end of a story driven game? There isnt much to do in ANY game once you have completed all the content now is there.

     

    This made me laugh.  I truly do not understand why half of the players even play a MMORPG without understanding even the most basic things that make a game a MMORPG.  You level, then you raid and PvP.  I've heard they are giving cooking classes twice a week, but that is still unconfirmed. . .

     

    Oh, and shuffleboard on Sundays, of course. :)

     

     

  • boobookachooboobookachoo Member Posts: 70
    Originally posted by scodavis

    Originally posted by neonwire

    Originally posted by SaintViktor


    When you reach max level what is there to do other than raid and pvp ? 



     

    I dont know the answer to your question.......but what would you expect to be doing once you have reached the end of a story driven game? There isnt much to do in ANY game once you have completed all the content now is there.

     

    This made me laugh.  I truly do not understand why half of the players even play a MMORPG without understanding even the most basic things that make a game a MMORPG.  You level, then you raid and PvP.  I've heard they are giving cooking classes twice a week, but that is still unconfirmed. . .

     

    Oh, and shuffleboard on Sundays, of course. :)

     

     

    Lol Level Cap retirement home!

     

    On subject i like the idea of organizing players who will play the game for the right reasons onto one server. 

    On that note count me and 5 other people in.

  • richmixrichmix Member Posts: 121

    WAR's problems were fundamental. You could see plain as day that they would be there from day one. Even before day one. While many people hyped WAR to an incredible degree as the next possible WoW-killer, a few skilled critics noticed glaring flaws. There are too many of those now, in retrospect, to name, but foremost among them were nearly entirely instanced PvP, a game world segmented by level, and a very restricted feel to the game world (in that PvE and crafting were incredibly repetitive and dull--PvP was really the only focus of the game). We all watched with sad eyes as WAR crashed and burned like so many other MMOs up until now--but to be fair, anyone with their eyes open should have seen it coming.

    With Aion, I don't see the same issues. Aion's PvP system is tried and true: a persistent RvR-style setup with two opposing factions, an open world with both PvP and safe zones, and world PvP with persistent achievements such as capturing castles. Pointing these features out, because they seem to me to be common sense for a modern game with PvP after the criticisms both WoW and WAR have achieved, really only accentuates WAR's failures to me: I have every reason to think they will make Aion's PvP just that much more enjoyable. Further, Aion gives players much more to do besides rerun the same PvP instance over and over and over again. At launch, we'll have a reasonably developed crafting sytem (no gripes about the quality of items produced--this may be adjusted over time--at least the crafting system *exists*), a unique and beautiful game world to explore (that isn't cut up into level-restricted zones), and a few very interesting new mechanics to learn and play with: wings and combat combos.

    The presence of the AP system and PvP ranks ensures lots to do with regard to combat, and mastering the trade skills is no walk in the park. Further, NCSoft's demonstration so far of how they plan to support this game gives the impression of tremendous potential. They seem to be very interested in doing this right, which is not something I can say about WAR's developers. It helps that Aion has been out for quite some time now in Korea, and I'm excited to have an opportunity to get a "new" game in NA that has already been through the, "Why should we pay to play a beta?!" stage in another region. As long as NCSoft continues to listen to player feedback and stick to its guns on quality control, I see no possible way this game could bomb like WAR did. IMO, we're pretty safe--but after experiencing SWG's NGE, AoC, WAR, Darkfall, Tabula Rasa, and countless other hyped up bombshells that turned out to prove utter failures, I really can't help but retain some degree of doubt, even in spite of the tremendous promise this game seems to hold.

  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 4,011

    Loot treadmill, anyone?

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • KryptyKrypty Member UncommonPosts: 454

    Aion will be nothing like Warhammer. The game engine is so much better so that it can handle having a large battle happen. There was no incentive in Warhammer to do open world PvP, and instead it was a keep shuffle and people running scenarios nonstop. It was fun for a month or so because it was new, but after that, there was nothing else to keep me happy.

     

    Aion has the chance to have the type of PvP that you find in an FPS. I can just login, and join in the battle. That sounds like fun to me.

  • MrPhireMrPhire Member Posts: 212

    I think the OP is just strangely made. To be honest, I'm not gunna join a forum to roll with a community of people who just want one thing. That is like saying to the devs get rid of PvE and keep PvP. Or what ever your trying to say. There are multiple minds on multiple servers which makes the game more like a real world. They should randomly get together and form legions.

     

    What's even stranger is the comparison to WAR :P. War is obviously not like AION. This is NCsoft people. They like instances. The like PvE. This is their biggest attempt on Open World PvP aka PVPVE. They want us to fight npcs in a keep and the opposing faction. How thats gunna work out... err I dunno. :P. We also have to remember like many people have mentioned that all understnadable reviews of end game in the released content are outdated with the release of multiple instances. I personally believe as long as NCsoft doesn't decide to forget about either factor and patch according to both needs it should be a fine decent game.

    Playing: Guild Wars and Exteel
    Loved: WoW, Guild Wars, FFXI, and Lineage 2
    Liked: Exteel, WAR, and Lineage 1
    Hated:City of Heroes, City of Villians, Matrix Online, Runescape, and D&D Online.
    Waiting For: Aion, Guild Wars 2, FFXIV, and SW:TOR

  • MentatMentat Member UncommonPosts: 516
    Originally posted by neonwire

    Originally posted by SaintViktor


    When you reach max level what is there to do other than raid and pvp ? 



     

    I dont know the answer to your question.......but what would you expect to be doing once you have reached the end of a story driven game? There isnt much to do in ANY game once you have completed all the content now is there.



     

    In WoW the end game is the beginning game... Raid, PVP, work on trade skills, farm, collect pets and mounts, participate in whatever little events Blizzard has running at the time, run instances, collect badges for gear etc...

    "There isn't much to do in ANY game once you have completed all the content"?

    You don't mmo much do ya bra?

  • QualeQuale Member Posts: 105

    First I don't think the WAR system, which really was no system at all, is directly comparable to Aion. I'm not saying that it won't be in practicality, but on paper there are important differences.

    Second, I'm afraid creating such a player driven PvP idealistic environment is utopia. The PvP crowd, often generally quite immature, is also the most competetive. If the system holds a loop hole for them to get ahead, they will use it.

    I think that if it's not the way the game works, it won't be how it's played. I kinda hope I'm wrong though and good luck.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937
    Originally posted by SaintViktor


    When you reach max level what is there to do other than raid and pvp ? 



     

    My question to you is what would you expect to do?

    Those are pretty big gameplay elements.

    So what would you hope there would be to do? Because taking those two things out of the eqationi you just end up with crafting, role playing if that is your thing, and I suppose trying to enchant your weapons and gear suficiently.

    It's a pvp oriented game so pvp is very much on the menu.

    There is a large pve component and some would say that raiding is the pinnacle of pve activities. this can be debated of course and different games have different levels of raiding.

    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • Shoko_LiedShoko_Lied Member UncommonPosts: 2,193
    Originally posted by Wighty


    The issue is the fact that you can gain high Abyss rank without technically ever seeing another enemy faction player. Raiding Balaur keeps gives HUGE AP, as do some of the abyss Campaign quests even at the lower lvls a lvl 30ish aby quest gives 1500 abyss points.
     
    One of the main problems with this is that it makes abyss rank count for nothing. everyone will basically farm their way up the ranks and then do everything possible to protect their ranks.
     As other posters have mentioned once you pass the scrub ranks of soldier you lose exponential points at death in relation to the points you may actually gain for killing another player... So NO ONE is going to leave the safety of their guild, keep, fortress, home town etc, in risk of losing the artificial prestige of having a high ranking title which again may have nothing to do with actual PvP.
     
     
     



     

    This is not neccessarily true, because as you hit the "officer" ranks after passing enlisted. Anyone who got to officer through PVE will notice that your PVP Kill/Death ratio comes into factor. If you have no kills or deaths under your belt, it will become IMPOSSIBLE to rank up at that point. So EVERYONE will half to not only have a bunch of points, but have a good K/D spread as well. ALso, K/D is much more important than the AP.

    This is beause AP is spent on getting armor, you will litteraly volunteerly be giving up ranks from AP just to get gear. But the K/D ratio is like a perminent record. It will ALWAYS be there to effect your rank, so from the second you get into the abyss, you need to safeguard your K/D ratio. But at the same time, if you do not PVP, then will will hit a brick wall eventually.

  • AlbosAlbos Member Posts: 132

    Please don't compare WAR with Aion.... war is same as playing wow bg, aion has ideas from many mmorpg out there so is not bg but has a whole area(zone) to pvp, and also there are 3 sides the 2 pc ones and 1 npc which gets involved during pvp.

  • crunchyblackcrunchyblack Member Posts: 1,362
    Originally posted by denshing
    This is not neccessarily true, because as you hit the "officer" ranks after passing enlisted. Anyone who got to officer through PVE will notice that your PVP Kill/Death ratio comes into factor. If you have no kills or deaths under your belt, it will become IMPOSSIBLE to rank up at that point. So EVERYONE will half to not only have a bunch of points, but have a good K/D spread as well. ALso, K/D is much more important than the AP.
    This is beause AP is spent on getting armor, you will litteraly volunteerly be giving up ranks from AP just to get gear. But the K/D ratio is like a perminent record. It will ALWAYS be there to effect your rank, so from the second you get into the abyss, you need to safeguard your K/D ratio. But at the same time, if you do not PVP, then will will hit a brick wall eventually.



     

    My worry is that with a kill/death ratio playing a huge factor will bring about a diffrent type of pvp.

    You going to see people avoiding combat with anyone that doesnt look like an easy kill, and your going to get people running or using a log method or some exploit to attempt to get away.  This is also going to raise the emotional stress of the game.  People are going to go nuts when they get killed repeatedly.

    I hope they though of this for any epic battle...people wont go to them if they dont end up getting more kills than deaths. 

    Will this effect teamwork?  Everyones gonna want the kill, going to suck to be a tank or a healer in this respect.

    Going to be interesting to see how it ends up playing out. 

  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009

    I see the WAR keep issue being repeated in Aion.

     

    Korean and Chinese players report that keep defense is many times non-existent since defenders get little reward, while attackers on the other hand gain a lot for attacking and winning the keep. If this is true, and rank is factored in, then I see defense being even less of a priority since you gain little, and have a high chance of getting killed repeatedly since you are likely outnumbered.

     

    This looks like it would lead to the WAR problem of the two factions constantly trading keeps and avoiding each other since defending yields much less than just simply taking an undefended fort. I see this as being even MORE problematic in Aion since  death is expensive for high ranked players.

     

    Why defend and risk costly deaths when you can simply roll with the zerg, never die, and gain a good number of points while avoiding resistance?

     

    The easiest solution in my mind would be to make keep defenders lose no abyss points upon death, thereby making defense highly beneficial since you can pick up points with no loss. People will flock to defend their keeps, creating good battles and it would make taking a keep actually mean something.

     

    In this scenario its not like people will stop attacking keeps because you need the medals you get for taking them to equip the best gear, and they need to take keeps to get access to the best raid content. Providing medals for defenders would sweeten the pot even more.

     

    Another option is for keeps to constantly generate abyss points for defenders that increase as more attackers arrive.

     

    I just want to see defenders being rewarded at least as much, if not moreso than attackers in order to give them a reason to stick around and actually battle. Otherwise you get the WAR problem where both factions run around each other in circles since holding land won't help you actually increase your rank much, which is all that people care about in tiered gear games (by design).

     

  • yanje03yanje03 Member Posts: 36

    First, I wont say War End game is a failure and actually it was designed pretty good. if Aion pvp end game is as good as WAR, I am happy with it.  WAR dont real have much level grinding and enough pve contents but a pure pvp game. its game play life time is about 5-8 month for most players. wow is about 12 ~ 18 month life time because its huge pve contents. lotro is about 8-12 month. none of them is a bad game. but none could keep anyone play forever. we need buy and keep playing new game so game company would like to develop new games faster.

  • WhitetreeWhitetree Member Posts: 76
    Originally posted by Nihilist


    I see the WAR keep issue being repeated in Aion.
     
    Korean and Chinese players report that keep defense is many times non-existent since defenders get little reward, while attackers on the other hand gain a lot for attacking and winning the keep. If this is true, and rank is factored in, then I see defense being even less of a priority since you gain little, and have a high chance of getting killed repeatedly since you are likely outnumbered.
     
    This looks like it would lead to the WAR problem of the two factions constantly trading keeps and avoiding each other since defending yields much less than just simply taking an undefended fort. I see this as being even MORE problematic in Aion since  death is expensive for high ranked players.
     
    Why defend and risk costly deaths when you can simply roll with the zerg, never die, and gain a good number of points while avoiding resistance?
     
    The easiest solution in my mind would be to make keep defenders lose no abyss points upon death, thereby making defense highly beneficial since you can pick up points with no loss. People will flock to defend their keeps, creating good battles and it would make taking a keep actually mean something.
     
    In this scenario its not like people will stop attacking keeps because you need the medals you get for taking them to equip the best gear, and they need to take keeps to get access to the best raid content. Providing medals for defenders would sweeten the pot even more.
     
    Another option is for keeps to constantly generate abyss points for defenders that increase as more attackers arrive.
     
    I just want to see defenders being rewarded at least as much, if not moreso than attackers in order to give them a reason to stick around and actually battle. Otherwise you get the WAR problem where both factions run around each other in circles since holding land won't help you actually increase your rank much, which is all that people care about in tiered gear games (by design).
     



     

    Sadly enough, WAR tries to reward keep defenders as well, so your proposed system is mostly in place there. I agree that at first glance it would seem that defending a keep is not worth as much as taking one, but consider a few things:

     

    1) If your legion is in control of the keep, you're getting paid. Don't forget the fact that holding a keep earns you taxes from your factions' NPC merchants.

    2) Holding certain keeps means maintaining access to certain exclusive merchants, items, etc.

    3) Holding keeps means maintaining access to certain instances, which means access to even more high level gear as loot drops.

    4) Generally speaking, defending a fortress is easier than storming one. Chances are the attackers would be the ones holding back because they would be the ones suffering the hardest losses. Now I can't say for sure that this will be the case in Aion, but I expect it to be so.

     

    I understand everyone's concern with Aion ending up like WAR, but I just can't say that I expect it to turn out to be that similar. That being said, I commend the OP and Clarko for encouraging a PvP community. Even if the system turns out to be the holy grail in terms of RvR combat, having a solid group of people with whom you can compete with and fight alongside is never a bad idea. Nothing is more fulfilling in a game than to have a challenging battle with opponents that you relate to and respect.

    image

    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -Edmund Burke

    Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards. -Lois McMaster Bujold

    The probability that we may fail in the struggle ought not to deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just. -Abraham Lincoln

  • bazakbazak Member UncommonPosts: 283
    Originally posted by stayontarget

    Originally posted by Tenken29


    How's it going everyone? Some of you guys may have seen me posting lately. One of my concerns is how players will participate in end game pvp. My friend and I thought about it and he came up with a possible solution. Below is his description.
     
    "One of my main concerns with the game is that its endgame will inevitably degenerate into what has happened to WAR's endgame. For those of you who do not know what happened to WAR, basically it led to people PvEing keeps and objectives while avoiding contact with other players as much as possible because it was the most efficient way to grind renown points (RPs). Well, suffice it to say, the basis of Aion's endgame is very similar. Instead of grinding RPs, one grinds abyss points (APs). The possibility still exists in Aion for players to gain APs solely through PvE (killing the balaur in the Abyss). Although this is not the most efficient method at first, as one's rank increases, it becomes the safest and most stable method.
    If this is something you are afraid of, then why not do something about it? Wouldn't it be great to have a server dedicated to people who prefer to PvP in situations like this? Well, I have created a website with the intent to begin creating a community for players who put the enjoyment of PvP (in all its shapes and sizes) above progressing through the PvP ranks by any means necessary. If this is something that interests you, check out my website ( http://aionfactions.homelinux.com ).
    The current plan is to announce a server on the site for the people registered on my site to all play on. Then when the game is released, the chance of it having an enjoyable PvP environment at endgame will be much better.
    If you'd like to help with the effort, copy and paste the last two lines of my signature into your own. Then keep posting about Aion and the word will spread. "
     
    ******SHORT VERSION: If you prefer to PvP at endgame, register on the linked website if you would like to be a part of a PvP community for Aion's release. Then when the server list is announced, the site will have a server name for everyone to roll on.**********

    Yes you get AP from killing mobs but not as much as killing a player of the other faction.

    what does lvl rank and safest and most stable method of pve ap's have to do with anything ?

    Just because your abyss rank is higher does not make you stronger (your still open for a pk kill regardless of rank).

    If anything the players that go into the abyss just to pve are the ones that are most likely to get ganked.

     

     

    gota say this man the higher rank you are the more powerfull you are (i dont know how they are implimenting that but someone of the top rank would easily kill in 1v1 someone of lowest rank even if their skill levels (real player skills not stats and such) and their levels and gear were both the best the guy with max rank would still win)

  • KavaskousKavaskous Member Posts: 72

    I plan to KoS every enemy, but those PvEing are going to be zerged the hell out of.

     

    I doubt this will happen. The way the game is, and the fact that there's people like me, it will be hard to avoid PvP - All scrubs must die!

    Leader/Founder of Deritus Free Company - Chocobo Knights of Apocalypse Linkshell

Sign In or Register to comment.