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Vanilla wasn't better.

ThenariusThenarius Member Posts: 1,106

I really can't beleive how many people here(and on oficial forums, but at least those are trolls)demand classic servers or say that vanilla was better. I agree, some things were fun, such as the period without battlegrounds and the period without battlegroups. On the other side, I think many players didn't even play in vanilla, and they just say things that heard from others for sake of conversations.

I, for one, remember:

-Bugged instances, such as abnormal spawns in BWL(Razorgore anyone? :|), evade bugs, abnormal ability usages,boss phases not being properly changed and other things that made you pull your hair out, especially when the boss was almost done.

-Several bugged abilities(and often chainbugging other abilities when you used them)

-No DR in PvP and the overall value of gear made rank 13-geared players useless versus T2.5/T3 players(and T3 had roughly the same value as 70 blues). Doubletrinket mages could oneshot everyone, ambush rogues as well. An average mage would beat an extremely skilled warrior no matter what, since the warrior had no tools to kite all that kiting(hell,you could kill warrs with R1 Frostbolt if you wanted to).

-PvP was just a big grind. If you didn't spend your entire day on grinding mindless battlegrounds, with barely any skill involved.

-Most bosses were not complex. They were basically tank and spank with the odd ability and an enrage timer tuned around gear from the previous tank and spank instance. Indeed, there were some extremely hard fights, such as Four Horsemen, but no, Molten Core wasn't epic at all.

In my opinion, WoW was the best during TBC. Blizzard managed to create a really balanced PvP system and there was plenty of world PvP on my server. Arena was a pretty fun addition to the game. PvE bosses were extremely challenging, such as pre-nerf M'uru or pre-nerf Kael'thas, where a single mistake meant a sure wipe.

Now, WOTLK did screw up class balance pretty bad(mainly, through burst). Hardmodes are a nice addition to the game(YG-0, Algalon 25, Freya25 3E, and Mirmiron25 harmode are quite challenging), since several people complained about BC bosses being undoable if you didn't spend too much time/night trying it. However, normal modes are way too easy and I don't agree with Blizzard on this one.

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Comments

  • supbrosupbro Member Posts: 327

    WoW's pvp now is purely instanced, with a huge grind for honor/arena ratings. How generic and boring is that, the same combo of FOTM teams with with the same gear always wins. No skill, no excitment . Thats why the best WoW PvP player is leaving for Aion as mentioned in his blog which you can read here wowriot.gameriot.com/blogs/Ugly-Gnome/Aion-Why-you-should-and-shouldnt-play. People aren't happy with WoW's pvp and will be leaving in droves as soon as Aion hits 20 Sept. Aions Pvp offers the old school Open world skirmishes, fortress seiges (not instanced), relics, Open world bosses (not instanced) - basically PvP that affects the world your playing in, it's not an instanced meaningless sideshow like WoW.

    GW2 the future of MMO gaming

  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 3,999

    Thread should be titled:  Vanilla wasn't better (FOR ME)

     

    Because to me, vanilla WoW was way better. The biggest disappointment for me, patch after patch, was the continued tweaking of the classes. Once they added new skills and spells in BC, and again in Wrath, it simply is not the same game anymore. Too much has changed. Some players like that. I, however, prefer things the way they were before BC. To each their own.

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945

    (Edit: referencing the first reply, not the OP)

     

    Gee, another wow is doomed when the next mmo is released. 

     

    I wouldn't mind seeing more competition in the marketplace, because we as consumers can only come out ahead in that scenario, but I wouldn't go all doom and gloom about wows pvp being horrible.  Plenty enjoy it for what it is.

     

    As for Aion being the second coming of pvp, I have my doubts.  2 factions fighting each other over contested content.  Time will tell, but I smell a big of warhammer repeat there.  It may not be as bad as warhammers fate, but it has that same potential of server imbalances with one side driving the other from the game. 

     

  • ThenariusThenarius Member Posts: 1,106
    Originally posted by Daffid011


    Gee, another wow is doomed when the next mmo is released. 
     
    I wouldn't mind seeing more competition in the marketplace, because we as consumers can only come out ahead in that scenario, but I wouldn't go all doom and gloom about wows pvp being horrible.  Plenty enjoy it for what it is.
     
    As for Aion being the second coming of pvp, I have my doubts.  2 factions fighting each other over contested content.  Time will tell, but I smell a big of warhammer repeat there.  It may not be as bad as warhammers fate, but it has that same potential of server imbalances with one side driving the other from the game. 
     

    I never said that. WOTLK's PvP was a letdown from what it was in TBC, but I guess I understand Blizzard. Once you dominate the market, why bother with making a serious project when people will still buy the shiny death knight box.

    Also, I didn't make this thread to talk about PvP. I made it because I simply can't understand how people say Vanilla was so much better when PvE encounters were far less epic than people these days are trying to say and PvP was a target-and-kill-fest.

  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 3,999
    Originally posted by Thenarius

    Originally posted by Daffid011


    Gee, another wow is doomed when the next mmo is released. 
     
    I wouldn't mind seeing more competition in the marketplace, because we as consumers can only come out ahead in that scenario, but I wouldn't go all doom and gloom about wows pvp being horrible.  Plenty enjoy it for what it is.
     
    As for Aion being the second coming of pvp, I have my doubts.  2 factions fighting each other over contested content.  Time will tell, but I smell a big of warhammer repeat there.  It may not be as bad as warhammers fate, but it has that same potential of server imbalances with one side driving the other from the game. 
     

    I never said that. WOTLK's PvP was a letdown from what it was in TBC, but I guess I understand Blizzard. Once you dominate the market, why bother with making a serious project when people will still buy the shiny death knight box.

    Also, I didn't make this thread to talk about PvP. I made it because I simply can't understand how people say Vanilla was so much better when PvE encounters were far less epic than people these days are trying to say and PvP was a target-and-kill-fest.

    To me, the new PvE is hard just for the sake of being hard. The encounters rarely make any sense and require players to dance around and do stupid stuff at specfic times and intervals. Some may call that challenge. I, however, call it jumping through hoops. To each their own.

     

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • supbrosupbro Member Posts: 327
    Originally posted by Daffid011


    Gee, another wow is doomed when the next mmo is released. 
     
    I wouldn't mind seeing more competition in the marketplace, because we as consumers can only come out ahead in that scenario, but I wouldn't go all doom and gloom about wows pvp being horrible.  Plenty enjoy it for what it is.
     
    As for Aion being the second coming of pvp, I have my doubts.  2 factions fighting each other over contested content.  Time will tell, but I smell a big of warhammer repeat there.  It may not be as bad as warhammers fate, but it has that same potential of server imbalances with one side driving the other from the game. 
     

     

    One key point your forgetting. There's a 3rd NPC faction "the balaur" which come to aid of the underpopulated side and help balance things (if needed). Aion already has alot built in mechanics to cover this issue - not like WAR which is still a game in beta one year after release...

    GW2 the future of MMO gaming

  • templargatemplarga Member UncommonPosts: 1,990
    Originally posted by supbro


    WoW's pvp now is purely instanced, with a huge grind for honor/arena ratings. How generic and boring is that, the same combo of FOTM teams with with the same gear always wins. No skill, no excitment . Thats why the best WoW PvP player is leaving for Aion as mentioned in his blog which you can read here wowriot.gameriot.com/blogs/Ugly-Gnome/Aion-Why-you-should-and-shouldnt-play. People aren't happy with WoW's pvp and will be leaving in droves as soon as Aion hits 20 Sept. Aions Pvp offers the old school Open world skirmishes, fortress seiges (not instanced), relics, Open world bosses (not instanced) - basically PvP that affects the world your playing in, it's not an instanced meaningless sideshow like WoW.

    Yep and they will return in droves when they realize that Aion is nothing more and nothing less than simply a overly simplistic game with PVP thrown in. It is a boring, linear game that offers nothing at all for the first 25 levels.....then and only then does PVP magically begin. Add in massive issues with bots, gold farmers, people setting up shop anywhere and everywhere, time limited ability to fly, invisible walls, and Aion is nothing special.....and while it may attract the WOW players because its the "new" game, once the honeymoon period ends, the WOW player will return to WOW.

    And I have read that blog and it sounds like a hardcore PVP'er who is disgruntled with WOW more than an unbiased and honest depiction of what the two games offer.

    Make no mistake, WOW PVP isn't the best, but Aion is by no means the savior of PVP at all. The PVP may be good at higher levels but you have to make players WANT and desire to get there. And that is where Aion fails and miserably so.

  • coffeecoffee Member Posts: 2,007

    Its the rose tinted glass effect, back in vanillia WoW, it was all new, raiding, PVP, classes, there were lots of suprises to discover. But today there are very few suprises, you have done countless raids and PVP Battlegrounds and it just does not feel as new and epic as it did when you first started.

    One thing I will say was better and that was world PVP and by that I mean the chance to get jumped by a roaming band of horde, the battles at the xcross and southshore. That is the only classic feature I want back.

    image

  • AlandoraAlandora Member Posts: 337

     

    There are 4 things that stick in my mind regarding ' Classic wow'

    1.  the total lack of things to do for non-raiders.  You had the Sithilis rep grind, and maybe Eastern Plaquelands.   Both were extremely tedius.. much MUCH worse then dailies.  Crafting was dead unless you raided.

    2. PVP titles.   Does anyone even remember this?  You literally had to unattend macro BGs all day to advance.   Arenas are a huge step forward where you have to actually win to advance.   BGs are better now that there are more of them, but Blizzard does need to figure out a way to reward them rather than just Arena

    3.  Class balance.  While people complained in this thread about classes being tweaked to death over the past few years, that is probably because they played one of the few specs that were viable back then.   Look at a 5man group now.  It's fairly easy to find a balance or feral druid.  Back in Vanilla, the only balance or feral druids you ever saw were alts who were just used for messing around.  The same is true for Shamen, you NEVER saw an elemental or enhance shaman doing anything but solo content.   Right now, there are probably 25 different specs that are represented by the top raiding guilds on my server.  Yes, if you were a rogue back then, now things are 'harder' for you because you have a host of other specs than can raid as melee dps(fury, arms, feral, enhance, Dks etc).  Back then, rogues were the ONLY dps melee class that raided.

    4.  Boss fights.  Both 5man and raids are much MUCH more interesting now then they were back then.   Bosses back then meant a lot of hps, a lot of dps and an enrage timer and maybe 1 or 2 special attacks... and that is for raids.. 5mans back then were all tank/spank.    Walk into a 5 man dungeon today and try to just tank/spank your way through any boss fight.   WIth one or two exceptions (in the whole expansion) it won't work unless you greatly outgear the place.

     

  • ThradarThradar Member Posts: 949

     So you think an IP that's touted based on war between horde and alliance is better today with instanced arenas with dangling carrots and BGs as opposed to open world PVP?

    No.

  • ThenariusThenarius Member Posts: 1,106
    Originally posted by Thradar


     So you think an IP that's touted based on war between horde and alliance is better today with instanced arenas with dangling carrots and BGs as opposed to open world PVP?
    No.

    WoW isn't about PvP only. Originally, PvP was supposed to be just a bonus. I wonder why people instantly jump to PvP. I'm talking about WoW as a whole.

    Oh, and I consider arena quite fun, but battlegrounds are horrible.

  • AlandoraAlandora Member Posts: 337
    Originally posted by Thradar


     So you think an IP that's touted based on war between horde and alliance is better today with instanced arenas with dangling carrots and BGs as opposed to open world PVP?
    No.



     

    If you want to use RP as a basis for your argument, you really should do some more research.

    Warcraft 1      Orcs vs Humans

    Warcraft 2     Orcs vs Humans

    Warcraft 3   Orcs and Humans on the same side.

    World of Warcraft  -  The truce between the orcs and humans is very fragile, but it still in place.   Minor skirmish are breaking out(WSG, AB, AV etc) and distrust is high, but overall, there is no  war yet.  Both factions have people who are pushing for outright war..   The truce would probably have fallen apart, except that a common enemy keeps showing up, like the Lich King.   If you actually play the game, and played through the wrathgate quest chain and saw the phasing part, you would know how close the truce is to falling apart, but the sides both realize that the bigger enemy is the Lich King.

    And on pvp servers, you are free to kill people of the opposite faction.  Want to come to STV and find out?

    If WOW was based on warcraft 1, then you might be able to make your argument, but WOW is based on the time AFTER warcraft3 when the truce takes place.

  • storm-dragonstorm-dragon Member Posts: 157








    I liked Vanilla WoW, I liked BC, and I like Wotlk. The day I stop liking WoW will be the day I move on, commentary won't be necessary because that and five dollars will buy you a small beverage at Starbucks.  Apparently I’m not alone as the game is still doing very well.

    This sword here at my side dont act the way it should
    Keeps calling me its master, but I feel like its slave
    Hauling me faster and faster to an early, early grave
    And it howls! it howls like hell!

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945
    Originally posted by Thenarius

    Originally posted by Daffid011


    Gee, another wow is doomed when the next mmo is released. 
     
    I wouldn't mind seeing more competition in the marketplace, because we as consumers can only come out ahead in that scenario, but I wouldn't go all doom and gloom about wows pvp being horrible.  Plenty enjoy it for what it is.
     
    As for Aion being the second coming of pvp, I have my doubts.  2 factions fighting each other over contested content.  Time will tell, but I smell a big of warhammer repeat there.  It may not be as bad as warhammers fate, but it has that same potential of server imbalances with one side driving the other from the game. 
     

    I never said that. WOTLK's PvP was a letdown from what it was in TBC, but I guess I understand Blizzard. Once you dominate the market, why bother with making a serious project when people will still buy the shiny death knight box.

    Also, I didn't make this thread to talk about PvP. I made it because I simply can't understand how people say Vanilla was so much better when PvE encounters were far less epic than people these days are trying to say and PvP was a target-and-kill-fest.

    That is a very fine point I had forgotten about. 

     

    I have to agree with coffee, that wow was new and fresh in the first few years.  There was a lot to discover in game and mechanics wise. 

  • thexratedthexrated Member UncommonPosts: 1,368
    Originally posted by Alandora


    4.  Boss fights.  Both 5man and raids are much MUCH more interesting now then they were back then.   Bosses back then meant a lot of hps, a lot of dps and an enrage timer and maybe 1 or 2 special attacks... and that is for raids.. 5mans back then were all tank/spank.    Walk into a 5 man dungeon today and try to just tank/spank your way through any boss fight.   WIth one or two exceptions (in the whole expansion) it won't work unless you greatly outgear the place.

     

    Well, boss fights originally started without damage and threat meters. My first MC run was wihtout anyone knowing how to dispel/cleanse as fast as it was required. 

    Also, some of the best fights are still in vanilla WoW.

    - Ragnaros

    - Razorgore

    - Vaelastrasz

    - Chromaggus

    - Nefarian

    - Twin Emperors

    - C'Thun

    And then the original Naxxmaras bosses.

    It started going downhill after Kael'Thas. Especially once they removed attunments.

    Also about new 5-man instances versus old. New instances, since TBC, have all been very similar:

    - very linear

    - 2-4 bosses

    The old instances like Scholomance, Stratholme, BRD, BRS, and DM were all much move "epic" in their design and feeling. I remember doing BRD first time in the US closed beta, and it was just amazing. 

    So all in all, I enjoyed vanilla WoW much more than either TBC or WoTLK. I am sure you can put some of it down to nostalgia and due to the fact that the magic has gone for me after 5 years.

    "The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."

  • RecantRecant Member UncommonPosts: 1,586

    I agree.  Strawberry is far superior.

    Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...

  • solarinesolarine Member Posts: 1,203

    Hey, but there were so many fun things you could do then, such as:

     

    * Wait for realm-only battlegrounds to come up for 2 hours, and then own or get owned by the very same players you've faced thousands of times. At some point you'll be able to decipher their moods just going by the body language of their toons! 

    * Grind PVP Rank 13! Don't eat, don't sleep, make your wife and mom play your toon in BGs when you're at work! In the end you'll have that cool Grand Marshal's Glaive and a newly developed disgust for the human race!

    * Camp Astranaar griffon with a 30-strong group and kill any alliance landing! (no, really, this was actually fun!) C'mon, you know that griffon is into you, she's been coming at you all evening!

    * Feed the Tarren Mill fodder in the never-ending battle of Southshore! (yep, gonna give this one, too - also fun!) Let your system crash and your enemy burn!

    * Get into a serious raiding guild and do hellish amounts of farming. You think you'll spend too much time trying to bring down those AQ40 bosses? Wait until you see how many hours you're going to have to sink in farming to keep up! (Hey, while you're there, go for some scorpid blood!)

    * And when there's nowhere else to go / Get exalted with the Timbermaw! (uh, no, sadly that's not a song). The epitome of a thoroughly lost mind and a good example of a whole-lotta-grindin'-for-pretty-much-nothin' ways of vanilla WOW.

     

    So did I not have fun? You bet I did! For a while... 

     

     

     

  • AlandoraAlandora Member Posts: 337
    Originally posted by thexrated

    Originally posted by Alandora


    4.  Boss fights.  Both 5man and raids are much MUCH more interesting now then they were back then.   Bosses back then meant a lot of hps, a lot of dps and an enrage timer and maybe 1 or 2 special attacks... and that is for raids.. 5mans back then were all tank/spank.    Walk into a 5 man dungeon today and try to just tank/spank your way through any boss fight.   WIth one or two exceptions (in the whole expansion) it won't work unless you greatly outgear the place.

     

    Well, boss fights originally started without damage and threat meters. My first MC run was wihtout anyone knowing how to dispel/cleanse as fast as it was required. 

    Also, some of the best fights are still in vanilla WoW.

    - Ragnaros

    - Razorgore

    - Vaelastrasz

    - Chromaggus

    - Nefarian

    - Twin Emperors

    - C'Thun

    And then the original Naxxmaras bosses.

    It started going downhill after Kael'Thas. Especially once they removed attunments.

    Also about new 5-man instances versus old. New instances, since TBC, have all been very similar:

    - very linear

    - 2-4 bosses

    The old instances like Scholomance, Stratholme, BRD, BRS, and DM were all much move "epic" in their design and feeling. I remember doing BRD first time in the US closed beta, and it was just amazing. 

    So all in all, I enjoyed vanilla WoW much more than either TBC or WoTLK. I am sure you can put some of it down to nostalgia and due to the fact that the magic has gone for me after 5 years.



     

    Twin Emps was an interesting fight, that's about it.   I almost don't consider Naxx a vanilla dungeon since we had such little time in it.   MC was a total bore, just mindless trash.

    I agree the new 5 man content isn't as long as the old stuff, but how many times did you actually do the old stuff?   Even in guilds it was a pain because most people didn't need anything from there and it was impossible to put together pugs back then.    BRD was an interesting dungeon, but i never saw all of it.  It was just impossible to keep a group together for that long.

    the 5 man content now is great.   yes, they are much shorter, but its' mostly just trash that has been removed.  Fighting trash for an hour to get to the next boss is not fun when you constantly have to replace people because they have to leave.   But again, the important thing is the 5man bosses in Wrath are much more interesting and it's much easier to find a group for a 45 min heroic then it was for a 10hr BRD run.

  • jaxsundanejaxsundane Member Posts: 2,776
    Originally posted by Daffid011


    Gee, another wow is doomed when the next mmo is released. 
     
    I wouldn't mind seeing more competition in the marketplace, because we as consumers can only come out ahead in that scenario, but I wouldn't go all doom and gloom about wows pvp being horrible.  Plenty enjoy it for what it is.
     
    As for Aion being the second coming of pvp, I have my doubts.  2 factions fighting each other over contested content.  Time will tell, but I smell a big of warhammer repeat there.  It may not be as bad as warhammers fate, but it has that same potential of server imbalances with one side driving the other from the game. 
     



     

    Are you sure you're responding in the post you think you are I didn't see him say anything about "wow is doomed" as a matter of fact I got the impression he is a current player who doesn't think it's all bad, granted I don't know half of what he's talking about since I quit a bit after TBC but I'm fairly certain he wasn't saying the game is doomed.

    but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....

  • mackdawg19mackdawg19 Member UncommonPosts: 842

    I want WoW before it had free content. When Molten Core was a pain for people to get in to because only 5 people had keys. And when it was the only huge raid instance. Or when people would raid the apposing raid guild doing the outdoor raid bosses. Or when TM was the best area to get your PvP on. Or when loot lag was around and people would get it so bad you could spot half the server walking around looking like they were bending over showing you the moon. Or when Onyxia seemed like the hardest key to get. Or when Maruadon was just implemented as the first 50+ group instance and all the first level 60's flocked to it because they had never been there. Or when people spent days getting that fishing pole! Or when .........

    I think you get my drift. WoW when it first launched was great because it was new and it was one of my best times gaming besides playing DaoC. But life goes on right? =)

    Forgot the best one, when only one person in your guild had a key for Upper BlackRock and he was logged off. Oh and the wipes on the eggs!!!!!

  • EryemilEryemil Member Posts: 26

    It sure was great when most classes only had one viable (or even useful) tree to spec into in order to be able to experience end-game content.

    If you yearn for the days of PR-BC and raid with a hybrid class as anything but a healer you are a hypocrite.

     

    Retribution

    Elemental

    Feral

    Shadow

    Protection (Paladin)

    Balance

    Discipline

    Enhancement

     

    All subpar specs. I played a shadow priest at 60 and can still remember not being wanted in groups, even for 5-man instances. Hell, even some of the "pure" classes had "leveling specs" that weren't useful for anything but getting to 60.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    image

  • John.A.ZoidJohn.A.Zoid Member Posts: 1,531

    Vanilla wasn't a bloated broken mess and it had no battlegrounds so there was world PVP and city raids each night. There wasn't any new zones that the expansions added which took the world population away so the world felt dead.

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945
    Originally posted by jaxsundane

    Originally posted by Daffid011


    Gee, another wow is doomed when the next mmo is released. 
     
    I wouldn't mind seeing more competition in the marketplace, because we as consumers can only come out ahead in that scenario, but I wouldn't go all doom and gloom about wows pvp being horrible.  Plenty enjoy it for what it is.
     
    As for Aion being the second coming of pvp, I have my doubts.  2 factions fighting each other over contested content.  Time will tell, but I smell a big of warhammer repeat there.  It may not be as bad as warhammers fate, but it has that same potential of server imbalances with one side driving the other from the game. 
     



     

    Are you sure you're responding in the post you think you are I didn't see him say anything about "wow is doomed" as a matter of fact I got the impression he is a current player who doesn't think it's all bad, granted I don't know half of what he's talking about since I quit a bit after TBC but I'm fairly certain he wasn't saying the game is doomed.

    Perhaps it is a matter of perception, but I see all the key elements in the post that make it just like all the rest proclaiming the end is near.

    • Generic and boring gameplay, no skill, fotm, no excitment.
    • the best pvp player is leaving wow for aion, whatever the "best" wow pvp player means
    • People are not happy with wow and leaving in "droves" as soon as aion launches (there is the key phrase in my eyes)
    • A list of what aion is going to do that is so much better than wow.
    • One last jab at wow for being an instanced meaningless sideshow.

    I won't argue if anyone wants to read that post another way, but to me it reads just like all the rest have for years on end.  Somehow I think wow will be just fine come sept 20th.

  • djazzydjazzy Member Posts: 3,578
    Originally posted by coffee


    Its the rose tinted glass effect, back in vanillia WoW, it was all new, raiding, PVP, classes, there were lots of suprises to discover. But today there are very few suprises, you have done countless raids and PVP Battlegrounds and it just does not feel as new and epic as it did when you first started.
    One thing I will say was better and that was world PVP and by that I mean the chance to get jumped by a roaming band of horde, the battles at the xcross and southshore. That is the only classic feature I want back.



     

    Yes nostalgia is powerful. You can't understate the newness factor. I will say that I thought the community was a heck of a lot better back when the game first started.

  • wartywarty Member Posts: 461

    I dont think new stuff is that much better, the old stuff was definitely great tho. Nostalgia is one thing, but nobody ever considers aged hatred. You've seen it a thousand times, youve wiped thousands more than that. Ofc you find it less exciting when you look back.

    Playing polished, lag free, feature complete games is carebear. Whining about a game you hate but still play is hardcore man!

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