Going back to sandbox style open world no content player created everything is not innovation it's going backwards. And don't blame WoW, blame EQ for why MMOs didn't evolve from the UO model instead.
The fact that you consider moving from EQ's directed content style to UO's sandbox model to be going backwards in one sentence and evolution in the next notwithstanding, and assuming you meant the first rather than the second since your post history confirms it, I could not POSSIBLY disagree more. This is like saying democracy is a regression from communism, or freedom is the devolution of tyranny. Giving people options is a good thing.
Going back to sandbox style open world no content player created everything is not innovation it's going backwards. And don't blame WoW, blame EQ for why MMOs didn't evolve from the UO model instead.
The fact that you consider moving from EQ's directed content style to UO's sandbox model to be going backwards in one sentence and evolution in the next notwithstanding, and assuming you meant the first rather than the second since your post history confirms it, I could not POSSIBLY disagree more. This is like saying democracy is a regression from communism, or freedom is the devolution of tyranny. Giving people options is a good thing.
Not quite.
Art is directed. Storytelling is directed. If you're going for a story-based experience, opting out of providing the content is a failing. This has got nothing to do with regime and people's right to decide how they're going to be governed. It's an irrelevant analogy.
And anyway, you think a tabula rasa beats a Dostoyevsky novel? Sure, the potential is there, but you're probably going to sit through millions of really badly written, amateurish stories before you get one that's half as decent as something the man could babble in delirium.
The worst thing that can happen is: This game succeeds on the same level as WoW has and further proves that expensive, simplistic, unimaginative games are the only way to succeed in the MMO industry. This then drives the final nail into the coffin of innovation in this genre and those of us who had been waiting for "the game to change it all" will finally realize that the world simply doesn't want one and that all we're ever going to get are endless variations of the WoW model (WoW in space, WoW with lightsabers, WoW underwater, WoW in the future, WoW on boats, etc.) That's the worst that can happen. Please don't take this to say that I "hate" SWTOR. It looks great and I will definitely play it. But it looks like another very stale entry in an already very stale genre.
Do you actually know ANYTHING about SWTOR or....
I mean, I don't know about you but I can't think of a single MMO that has fully voiced everything and such a heavy focus on story and the Bioware decision making dialogue trees and alignment systems...
May not be new to gaming but certainly new to the MMORPG genre. How is that simplistic and unimaginative? How is that not innovation?
Going back to sandbox style open world no content player created everything is not innovation it's going backwards. And don't blame WoW, blame EQ for why MMOs didn't evolve from the UO model instead.
If having voiceover and factions is enough to satisfy you, I'm very happy for you and am sure you will enjoy the game.
Also, last I checked factions were set in stone, you chose alignment at the start and your actions couldn't change it. Is this different? Can you go from being a Jedi to being a Sith via careless actions or not following the jedi code? I obviously don't follow this game as much as others. I think it would be qutie awesome to see how many people "give in" to "anger and hate" and actually fall to the dark side based on not following a strict code of jedi conduct. This would make the game quite interesting indeed.
Also many MMOs have had excellent story-driven content. CoH/CoV, AoC, TR, LoTRO, Vanguard... I'm not saying they were great games, but they certainly had / have excellent story-driven content. Many MMOs also have voiceover. EQ2 had full voiceover on launch, with hollywood actors even! It was pretty lame to have to listen to the NPC slowly read a wall of text while you were already done reading it yourself. AoC did it much better i think, by restricting it to cutscenes and mroe important parts of the game.
Having 90983098439057 lines of dialogue when the last MMO "only" had 589709843 lines of dialogue doesn't particularly sell me. The novelty wears off really fast. Now, if the game actually eliminated text and you had to interact with NPCs by talking (using a mic) and they only answered back in voice, that would be very innovative indeed. Not sure it would be good, but definitely an interesting step forward.
Also, your whole rant about "sandbox open world user created everything" is not something I mentioned in my post, so I'm not sure where it came from.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
I mean, I don't know about you but I can't think of a single MMO that has fully voiced everything and such a heavy focus on story and the Bioware decision making dialogue trees and alignment systems...
May not be new to gaming but certainly new to the MMORPG genre. How is that simplistic and unimaginative? How is that not innovation?
Going back to sandbox style open world no content player created everything is not innovation it's going backwards. And don't blame WoW, blame EQ for why MMOs didn't evolve from the UO model instead.
hey, here's something for you to try:
Download the Age Of Conan trial.
Play through Tortage more than once. Go ahead.....try it. Tell me how 'innovative" that feels after the first run through, much less the third, fourth, fifth, etc.
In fact....try playing through the tutorial in LOTRO a few times....os pretty much any other game. There's REASON that companies let you skip this shit. It's cool teh first time through, but after that.... /puke.
And we get to look foreward to a WHOLE GAME of this?? ummmm.....yay!!
Sandbox fans don't shut up and go to MO or Earthrise and continue to criticize the entire game because of its heavy story-based element.
Well, that's the worst that could happen on the forums. The worst that could happen for the actual game would be limited features besides the story. Variety is the spice of life.
The worst that could happen for the actual game would be limited features besides the story.
This right here. Well said. Nothing wrong with a well-written story for everyone to enjoy as a single-player experience. But this is available from any number of games already. What I want to know is, what else have ya got? (rhetorical question btw).
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
hey, here's something for you to try: Download the Age Of Conan trial. Play through Tortage more than once. Go ahead.....try it. Tell me how 'innovative" that feels after the first run through, much less the third, fourth, fifth, etc. In fact....try playing through the tutorial in LOTRO a few times....os pretty much any other game. There's REASON that companies let you skip this shit. It's cool teh first time through, but after that.... /puke. And we get to look foreward to a WHOLE GAME of this?? ummmm.....yay!!
edit: pardon my spelling....I'm drunk again....
Hmm, going by what the developers have said, it would be more like having *eight* Tortages - one for each class. So it'd be somewhat better than what AOC is providing.
And of course, we still don't know if it's really going to feel exactly like Tortage. I myself hope it doesn't. Tortage was not a good story experience at all. The way the plot was laid out was tired and predictable, the scenes were unimaginative... It was a lot like watching a B-movie. I do hope Bioware does better.
What's the worst that could happen? Sandbox fans don't shut up and go to MO or Earthrise and continue to criticize the entire game because of its heavy story-based element. Well, that's the worst that could happen on the forums. The worst that could happen for the actual game would be limited features besides the story. Variety is the spice of life.
I think it's a sure bet that they will move on and litter other forums based on their track record. The worse that can happen is the mods continue to let them get away with it.I know the official TOR site is a hell of lot more informative now that the trolls have been removed .
Going back to sandbox style open world no content player created everything is not innovation it's going backwards. And don't blame WoW, blame EQ for why MMOs didn't evolve from the UO model instead.
The fact that you consider moving from EQ's directed content style to UO's sandbox model to be going backwards in one sentence and evolution in the next notwithstanding, and assuming you meant the first rather than the second since your post history confirms it, I could not POSSIBLY disagree more. This is like saying democracy is a regression from communism, or freedom is the devolution of tyranny. Giving people options is a good thing.
Not quite. Art is directed. Storytelling is directed. If you're going for a story-based experience, opting out of providing the content is a failing. This has got nothing to do with regime and people's right to decide how they're going to be governed. It's an irrelevant analogy. And anyway, you think a tabula rasa beats a Dostoyevsky novel? Sure, the potential is there, but you're probably going to sit through millions of really badly written, amateurish stories before you get one that's half as decent as something the man could babble in delirium.
...?
Ok, you compare a video game to the works of the arguable father of modern existentialism, and yet tell me my analogy is irrelevant? Telling people what to do vs. providing them the tools to do it themselves is not at all irrelevant - it's exactly the heart of the matter. I can't help that you completely missed the point.
Art is directed in every game; just providing something to look at sets the tone. Storytelling the way Bioware is doing it, however, is a brand new concept that nobody else has tried yet. I never said anything about Bioware failing anything. I think it'll be a fun game, and I'll certainly play it. But whereas the industry is primarily involved in giving as much directed content as possible, not requiring the player to think for themselves in most cases, then while the 4th pillar of Story, as Bioware describes it, is certainly an innovation, it is not evolution.
If you were to write out your character's story in a normal game like WoW or AoC, it would say something to the effect of "I was born outside Stormwind. I killed 10 murlocs. I found out about a conspiracy. I then killed 10 more murlocs. Finally, I slayed the dragon and brought peace to the land." Everyone who plays the game is going to have some similar variation of that story. No question that Bioware will massively enhance the user experience of that, but the fact is THEY are still writing your story. The story itself will in all probability be epic, but the beginning and the end are already written for you. Again, innovation, and likely a fun one, but not an evolution.
FULLY VOICED storyline with no "esc" button option.... OMG.. This reminds me of calling voice automated numbers where you have to spend 10 minutes listening and making choices before finally getting to what or whom you actually want in the first place.. Will their storyline quest be just as stupid?
PS.. What is wrong with kill X = experience.. Do you honestly think TOR will be any different? Their game will still be a jump thru hoop to advance formula.. However, instead of killing 10 bears to get experience, they'll spice it up and have this nice story how you need to infiltrate the jedi camp and kill 10 padiwans...... COUGH.. you are still jumping thru THEIR hoops.. lol I guess killing 10 padiwans would be more "iconic", therefore better then killing 10 bears.. lmaooooooo
One thing that worries me is that the game may be too solo-friendly. I'm not going to pay anything more than the box price if nobody ever wants to group.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Going back to sandbox style open world no content player created everything is not innovation it's going backwards. And don't blame WoW, blame EQ for why MMOs didn't evolve from the UO model instead.
The fact that you consider moving from EQ's directed content style to UO's sandbox model to be going backwards in one sentence and evolution in the next notwithstanding, and assuming you meant the first rather than the second since your post history confirms it, I could not POSSIBLY disagree more. This is like saying democracy is a regression from communism, or freedom is the devolution of tyranny. Giving people options is a good thing.
Not quite.
Art is directed. Storytelling is directed. If you're going for a story-based experience, opting out of providing the content is a failing. This has got nothing to do with regime and people's right to decide how they're going to be governed. It's an irrelevant analogy.
And anyway, you think a tabula rasa beats a Dostoyevsky novel? Sure, the potential is there, but you're probably going to sit through millions of really badly written, amateurish stories before you get one that's half as decent as something the man could babble in delirium.
...?
Ok, you compare a video game to the works of the arguable father of modern existentialism, and yet tell me my analogy is irrelevant? Telling people what to do vs. providing them the tools to do it themselves is not at all irrelevant - it's exactly the heart of the matter. I can't help that you completely missed the point.
Art is directed in every game; just providing something to look at sets the tone. Storytelling the way Bioware is doing it, however, is a brand new concept that nobody else has tried yet. I never said anything about Bioware failing anything. I think it'll be a fun game, and I'll certainly play it. But whereas the industry is primarily involved in giving as much directed content as possible, not requiring the player to think for themselves in most cases, then while the 4th pillar of Story, as Bioware describes it, is certainly an innovation, it is not evolution.
If you were to write out your character's story in a normal game like WoW or AoC, it would say something to the effect of "I was born outside Stormwind. I killed 10 murlocs. I found out about a conspiracy. I then killed 10 more murlocs. Finally, I slayed the dragon and brought peace to the land." Everyone who plays the game is going to have some similar variation of that story. No question that Bioware will massively enhance the user experience of that, but the fact is THEY are still writing your story. The story itself will in all probability be epic, but the beginning and the end are already written for you. Again, innovation, and likely a fun one, but not an evolution.
Missing both the point and the heart of the matter are entirely on your part. And yes, my analogy is relevant. Here's a play-by-play:
With "Art is directed" I meant not the artwork in games but art in general (same for storytelling, I used it in the general sense, not in the context of games). So that's "Art", as in theater, paintings, cinema... They're directed experiences. The artist designs the whole experience, presents it to you, then sees how it's going to effect you. You *can* make games this way, and no, it's not an inherently inferior design. I'll come to that.
Also, with "failing", I was not referring to anything you said, I was making my very own point. I was talking about how if you try to create a primarily story-based experience and then not provide enough directed content, it's a failure on your part. Let's go back and see what I said: "If you're going for a story-based experience, opting out of providing the content is a failing." Seems clear to me.
*I* never said it was "evolution" in the first place. I just think it *can* work.
You say directed content a la EQ is a step back from UO's game design. I disagree. I say that directed content is a step closer to a narrative form, and it opens a whole new vista where quality storytelling can take place.
I say quality storytelling is not to be underrated, because it can have profound effects. A well-told professional story is a vastly different experience than a half-baked amateur attempt at it.
With the "tabula rasa vs Dostoyevsky" example, I was going on a purely literary hypothesis. It's not about where Dostoyevsky stands, it's about the quality of the craft. So it's relevant when taken in the context of storytelling. I'm saying: If you make me choose between a very well-written story and a clean sheet of paper with hundreds of amateurs waiting to scribble on it, I'll go straight for the very well-written story, thank you very much. If I'm looking for a story-based experience, I'm not going to take chances going through thousands of amateur stories (you know, the "stories players make for themselves in a vast open free world"). This, to me, is how Dostoyevsky beats a tabula rasa and how Bioware beats millions of gameplayers writing their own stories with the tools given to them: When taken in terms of the quality of the story experience itself.
Going back to sandbox style open world no content player created everything is not innovation it's going backwards. And don't blame WoW, blame EQ for why MMOs didn't evolve from the UO model instead.
The fact that you consider moving from EQ's directed content style to UO's sandbox model to be going backwards in one sentence and evolution in the next notwithstanding, and assuming you meant the first rather than the second since your post history confirms it, I could not POSSIBLY disagree more. This is like saying democracy is a regression from communism, or freedom is the devolution of tyranny. Giving people options is a good thing.
Not quite.
Art is directed. Storytelling is directed. If you're going for a story-based experience, opting out of providing the content is a failing. This has got nothing to do with regime and people's right to decide how they're going to be governed. It's an irrelevant analogy.
And anyway, you think a tabula rasa beats a Dostoyevsky novel? Sure, the potential is there, but you're probably going to sit through millions of really badly written, amateurish stories before you get one that's half as decent as something the man could babble in delirium.
...?
Ok, you compare a video game to the works of the arguable father of modern existentialism, and yet tell me my analogy is irrelevant? Telling people what to do vs. providing them the tools to do it themselves is not at all irrelevant - it's exactly the heart of the matter. I can't help that you completely missed the point.
Art is directed in every game; just providing something to look at sets the tone. Storytelling the way Bioware is doing it, however, is a brand new concept that nobody else has tried yet. I never said anything about Bioware failing anything. I think it'll be a fun game, and I'll certainly play it. But whereas the industry is primarily involved in giving as much directed content as possible, not requiring the player to think for themselves in most cases, then while the 4th pillar of Story, as Bioware describes it, is certainly an innovation, it is not evolution.
If you were to write out your character's story in a normal game like WoW or AoC, it would say something to the effect of "I was born outside Stormwind. I killed 10 murlocs. I found out about a conspiracy. I then killed 10 more murlocs. Finally, I slayed the dragon and brought peace to the land." Everyone who plays the game is going to have some similar variation of that story. No question that Bioware will massively enhance the user experience of that, but the fact is THEY are still writing your story. The story itself will in all probability be epic, but the beginning and the end are already written for you. Again, innovation, and likely a fun one, but not an evolution.
Missing both the point and the heart of the matter are entirely on your part. And yes, my analogy is relevant. Here's a play-by-play:
With "Art is directed" I meant not the artwork in games but art in general (same for storytelling, I used it in the general sense, not in the context of games). So that's "Art", as in theater, paintings, cinema... They're directed experiences. The artist designs the whole experience, presents it to you, then sees how it's going to effect you. You *can* make games this way, and no, it's not an inherently inferior design. I'll come to that. Art, especially, is subject to the interpretation of the one experiencing it. If I paint a picture of a house, it is up to you to interpret it as a house. You could also interpret it as symbolic of something else. Theater and cinema both involve direct storytelling, though in most cases even certain aspects of those are left open to interpretation.
Also, with "failing", I was not referring to anything you said, I was making my very own point. I was talking about how if you try to create a primarily story-based experience and then not provide enough directed content, it's a failure on your part. Let's go back and see what I said: "If you're going for a story-based experience, opting out of providing the content is a failing." Seems clear to me. The sentence was clear, and made sense. But to what were you responding? I'm not seeing the context, as nothing above refers to it. You may as well have written a sentence that cheese is good. I would have agreed with that as well, and it would have been equally in context.
*I* never said it was "evolution" in the first place. I just think it *can* work. Agreed. But you were quoting my statements in your response, so hopefully you can understand my confusion here.
You say directed content a la EQ is a step back from UO's game design. I disagree. We'll have to agree to disagree, then. I say that directed content is a step closer to a narrative form, and it opens a whole new vista where quality storytelling can take place. Agreed here.
I say quality storytelling is not to be underrated, because it can have profound effects. A well-told professional story is a vastly different experience than a half-baked amateur attempt at it. True in every case. But that's not what a sandbox gaming environment provides.
With the "tabula rasa vs Dostoyevsky" example, I was going on a purely literary hypothesis. It's not about where Dostoyevsky stands, it's about the quality of the craft. So it's relevant when taken in the context of storytelling. I'm saying: If you make me choose between a very well-written story and a clean sheet of paper with hundreds of amateurs waiting to scribble on it, I'll go straight for the very well-written story, thank you very much. A novel HAS to be directed content, because it is not an interactive medium (Choose Your Own Adventures notwithstanding, mostly). Does anything in a novel change because you read it? Does it change while you're in process of reading it? Of course not - the words are written on paper or typed digitally, and will be the same tomorrow as they were today. The analogy doesn't work. See below. If I'm looking for a story-based experience, I'm not going to take chances going through thousands of amateur stories (you know, the "stories players make for themselves in a vast open free world"). This, to me, is how Dostoyevsky beats a tabula rasa and how Bioware beats millions of gameplayers writing their own stories with the tools given to them: When taken in terms of the quality of the story experience itself. That is your choice. My own choice is in a single-player game, I want to experience the developer's story, and nobody does that better than Bioware. In an MMO, however, the world is persistent. It does not end. There is no "kill Malak, destroy the station, save the galaxy, maybe start over and make different choices which will marginally effect the outcome". Therefore, my personal preference is to create my own story, as I don't want someone dictating to me that my character should endure roughly the same things as the guy next to me. And out of the millions of "amateurs" writing their own stories, you will inevitably come across a few that are well done and appreciable. I have. But we were not discussing personal preference, we were discussing which would be considered going backward vs. evolution of MMOs.
i think the worse that could happen in that the game turns out to be really good, and the haters constantly flame it, or it really sucks and the fanbois won't stop praising it.
You bastard! you've condemned us all! noooooooooooooooooooo.
As long as they don't make the end game all about raiding and give other viable options. Biggest fear is the wow raiding crowd destroying another game.
The worst thing that could happen 1) The game is great and my real life suffers from my addiction to play the game
2) The game sucks, and I'll keep dreaming of a game that will give me my mmo-sci-fi fix
3) The game is somewhere in betweeen, and I feel the need to warn everyone visiting mmorpg.com to even try the game for themselves. (actually this is the worst, cos that will mean I have nothing better to do/play)
The Worst..? LucasArts interfere and force a KotOR 2 again - a game that had everything to be the blockbuster sequel (you could even see it in the game) but fell awfully short of it, being almost the same thing, having broken dialogs, unfinished and with no end. Not that these things apply to an MMOG, but the unfinished part would be terrible - just look at AoC, that also had everything goin for it (great experienced company, awesome IP, great engine) but until today fights against launch problems.
.... [some heavy-duty quoting back and forth] ....
OK, Kylrathin, I'll try to explain myself further one last time - without all the quoting which I suspect is wearing people's eyeballs out And instead of responding to everything point by point, I'll try to outline:
You imply that an MMO based mostly on directed content is inherently "backwards", and I think that is simplistic dismissive behaviour. I think you can take an MMO as a "story-centered" form of game foremost and build other aspects over and around the story, and that this type of game design *can* work - and, who knows, depending on how you do do it, it *may* feel fresh! (Let's not pursue the "implementation of art is open-ended" line of discussion, you know as well as I do it's not related to what I'm talking about, and has no bearing at all in the matter). I'm thinking we agree on some points here.
I think this sort of MMO design has merit and comparing it to tyranny does not make much sense (actually, most of my post was a response to that analogy). In essense, I'm saying: "What, demanding a good storytelling experience from an MMO is like applying to live in a dictatorship now?" To me, that line of thinking is unfair to both the storytellers and the "story fan" players.
With the "failing" part,what I said was: If you set your mind on making a story-based MMO as Bioware is doing, you cannot go the classical sandbox route: You have to provide a lot of directed content or the model will not work. In your post that I quoted, you were arguing against directed content, so this bit was in response to it. So, yes, it did have context. I'm sorry it went the way of cheese for you.
On a last note, I agree with you that a game cannot be "just a novel". It has to have an interactive aspect that makes sense and feels rewarding. I was just talking about the story aspect of the game - and I did underline this in the closing part of my post. I have a problem with how such a potentially profound aspect of games tends to get dismissed and I have no patience with poor storytelling. It's not about "personal preference" in sandboxes, I do play sandboxes like EVE, I just want other kinds of MMO experiences, too. Like story-based MMOs. And sandboxes just don't cut it for your story needs.
Of course I'm hoping Bioware's MMO will not just be "play and reroll", that it's solely story. I'm hoping, like Wharg0ul said, that Bioware can hit the note on both scales.
Comments
The fact that you consider moving from EQ's directed content style to UO's sandbox model to be going backwards in one sentence and evolution in the next notwithstanding, and assuming you meant the first rather than the second since your post history confirms it, I could not POSSIBLY disagree more. This is like saying democracy is a regression from communism, or freedom is the devolution of tyranny. Giving people options is a good thing.
There's a sucker born every minute. - P.T. Barnum
Whats the worst that could happen you ask? If people start feeling like their paying 15 dollars a month to play by them self.
Worst that could happen?
Any Mythic dev working on PvP/class balance, thats the worst....oh wait...
ps: sry but mythic was the biggest disapointment of my MMO history
"I am not a robot. I am a unicorn."
The fact that you consider moving from EQ's directed content style to UO's sandbox model to be going backwards in one sentence and evolution in the next notwithstanding, and assuming you meant the first rather than the second since your post history confirms it, I could not POSSIBLY disagree more. This is like saying democracy is a regression from communism, or freedom is the devolution of tyranny. Giving people options is a good thing.
Not quite.
Art is directed. Storytelling is directed. If you're going for a story-based experience, opting out of providing the content is a failing. This has got nothing to do with regime and people's right to decide how they're going to be governed. It's an irrelevant analogy.
And anyway, you think a tabula rasa beats a Dostoyevsky novel? Sure, the potential is there, but you're probably going to sit through millions of really badly written, amateurish stories before you get one that's half as decent as something the man could babble in delirium.
Do you actually know ANYTHING about SWTOR or....
I mean, I don't know about you but I can't think of a single MMO that has fully voiced everything and such a heavy focus on story and the Bioware decision making dialogue trees and alignment systems...
May not be new to gaming but certainly new to the MMORPG genre. How is that simplistic and unimaginative? How is that not innovation?
Going back to sandbox style open world no content player created everything is not innovation it's going backwards. And don't blame WoW, blame EQ for why MMOs didn't evolve from the UO model instead.
If having voiceover and factions is enough to satisfy you, I'm very happy for you and am sure you will enjoy the game.
Also, last I checked factions were set in stone, you chose alignment at the start and your actions couldn't change it. Is this different? Can you go from being a Jedi to being a Sith via careless actions or not following the jedi code? I obviously don't follow this game as much as others. I think it would be qutie awesome to see how many people "give in" to "anger and hate" and actually fall to the dark side based on not following a strict code of jedi conduct. This would make the game quite interesting indeed.
Also many MMOs have had excellent story-driven content. CoH/CoV, AoC, TR, LoTRO, Vanguard... I'm not saying they were great games, but they certainly had / have excellent story-driven content. Many MMOs also have voiceover. EQ2 had full voiceover on launch, with hollywood actors even! It was pretty lame to have to listen to the NPC slowly read a wall of text while you were already done reading it yourself. AoC did it much better i think, by restricting it to cutscenes and mroe important parts of the game.
Having 90983098439057 lines of dialogue when the last MMO "only" had 589709843 lines of dialogue doesn't particularly sell me. The novelty wears off really fast. Now, if the game actually eliminated text and you had to interact with NPCs by talking (using a mic) and they only answered back in voice, that would be very innovative indeed. Not sure it would be good, but definitely an interesting step forward.
Also, your whole rant about "sandbox open world user created everything" is not something I mentioned in my post, so I'm not sure where it came from.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
hey, here's something for you to try:
Download the Age Of Conan trial.
Play through Tortage more than once. Go ahead.....try it. Tell me how 'innovative" that feels after the first run through, much less the third, fourth, fifth, etc.
In fact....try playing through the tutorial in LOTRO a few times....os pretty much any other game. There's REASON that companies let you skip this shit. It's cool teh first time through, but after that.... /puke.
And we get to look foreward to a WHOLE GAME of this?? ummmm.....yay!!
edit: pardon my spelling....I'm drunk again....
What's the worst that could happen?
Sandbox fans don't shut up and go to MO or Earthrise and continue to criticize the entire game because of its heavy story-based element.
Well, that's the worst that could happen on the forums. The worst that could happen for the actual game would be limited features besides the story. Variety is the spice of life.
This right here. Well said. Nothing wrong with a well-written story for everyone to enjoy as a single-player experience. But this is available from any number of games already. What I want to know is, what else have ya got? (rhetorical question btw).
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
Hmm, going by what the developers have said, it would be more like having *eight* Tortages - one for each class. So it'd be somewhat better than what AOC is providing.
And of course, we still don't know if it's really going to feel exactly like Tortage. I myself hope it doesn't. Tortage was not a good story experience at all. The way the plot was laid out was tired and predictable, the scenes were unimaginative... It was a lot like watching a B-movie. I do hope Bioware does better.
I think it's a sure bet that they will move on and litter other forums based on their track record. The worse that can happen is the mods continue to let them get away with it.I know the official TOR site is a hell of lot more informative now that the trolls have been removed .
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Ok, you compare a video game to the works of the arguable father of modern existentialism, and yet tell me my analogy is irrelevant? Telling people what to do vs. providing them the tools to do it themselves is not at all irrelevant - it's exactly the heart of the matter. I can't help that you completely missed the point.
Art is directed in every game; just providing something to look at sets the tone. Storytelling the way Bioware is doing it, however, is a brand new concept that nobody else has tried yet. I never said anything about Bioware failing anything. I think it'll be a fun game, and I'll certainly play it. But whereas the industry is primarily involved in giving as much directed content as possible, not requiring the player to think for themselves in most cases, then while the 4th pillar of Story, as Bioware describes it, is certainly an innovation, it is not evolution.
If you were to write out your character's story in a normal game like WoW or AoC, it would say something to the effect of "I was born outside Stormwind. I killed 10 murlocs. I found out about a conspiracy. I then killed 10 more murlocs. Finally, I slayed the dragon and brought peace to the land." Everyone who plays the game is going to have some similar variation of that story. No question that Bioware will massively enhance the user experience of that, but the fact is THEY are still writing your story. The story itself will in all probability be epic, but the beginning and the end are already written for you. Again, innovation, and likely a fun one, but not an evolution.
There's a sucker born every minute. - P.T. Barnum
FULLY VOICED storyline with no "esc" button option.... OMG.. This reminds me of calling voice automated numbers where you have to spend 10 minutes listening and making choices before finally getting to what or whom you actually want in the first place.. Will their storyline quest be just as stupid?
PS.. What is wrong with kill X = experience.. Do you honestly think TOR will be any different? Their game will still be a jump thru hoop to advance formula.. However, instead of killing 10 bears to get experience, they'll spice it up and have this nice story how you need to infiltrate the jedi camp and kill 10 padiwans...... COUGH.. you are still jumping thru THEIR hoops.. lol I guess killing 10 padiwans would be more "iconic", therefore better then killing 10 bears.. lmaooooooo
Worst that could happen is it is never released.
One thing that worries me is that the game may be too solo-friendly. I'm not going to pay anything more than the box price if nobody ever wants to group.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
The fact that you consider moving from EQ's directed content style to UO's sandbox model to be going backwards in one sentence and evolution in the next notwithstanding, and assuming you meant the first rather than the second since your post history confirms it, I could not POSSIBLY disagree more. This is like saying democracy is a regression from communism, or freedom is the devolution of tyranny. Giving people options is a good thing.
Not quite.
Art is directed. Storytelling is directed. If you're going for a story-based experience, opting out of providing the content is a failing. This has got nothing to do with regime and people's right to decide how they're going to be governed. It's an irrelevant analogy.
And anyway, you think a tabula rasa beats a Dostoyevsky novel? Sure, the potential is there, but you're probably going to sit through millions of really badly written, amateurish stories before you get one that's half as decent as something the man could babble in delirium.
...?
Ok, you compare a video game to the works of the arguable father of modern existentialism, and yet tell me my analogy is irrelevant? Telling people what to do vs. providing them the tools to do it themselves is not at all irrelevant - it's exactly the heart of the matter. I can't help that you completely missed the point.
Art is directed in every game; just providing something to look at sets the tone. Storytelling the way Bioware is doing it, however, is a brand new concept that nobody else has tried yet. I never said anything about Bioware failing anything. I think it'll be a fun game, and I'll certainly play it. But whereas the industry is primarily involved in giving as much directed content as possible, not requiring the player to think for themselves in most cases, then while the 4th pillar of Story, as Bioware describes it, is certainly an innovation, it is not evolution.
If you were to write out your character's story in a normal game like WoW or AoC, it would say something to the effect of "I was born outside Stormwind. I killed 10 murlocs. I found out about a conspiracy. I then killed 10 more murlocs. Finally, I slayed the dragon and brought peace to the land." Everyone who plays the game is going to have some similar variation of that story. No question that Bioware will massively enhance the user experience of that, but the fact is THEY are still writing your story. The story itself will in all probability be epic, but the beginning and the end are already written for you. Again, innovation, and likely a fun one, but not an evolution.
Missing both the point and the heart of the matter are entirely on your part. And yes, my analogy is relevant. Here's a play-by-play:
It turns out to be like Guild Wars but becomes so popular all other mmorpgs in future copy it like they did WoW.
The fact that you consider moving from EQ's directed content style to UO's sandbox model to be going backwards in one sentence and evolution in the next notwithstanding, and assuming you meant the first rather than the second since your post history confirms it, I could not POSSIBLY disagree more. This is like saying democracy is a regression from communism, or freedom is the devolution of tyranny. Giving people options is a good thing.
Not quite.
Art is directed. Storytelling is directed. If you're going for a story-based experience, opting out of providing the content is a failing. This has got nothing to do with regime and people's right to decide how they're going to be governed. It's an irrelevant analogy.
And anyway, you think a tabula rasa beats a Dostoyevsky novel? Sure, the potential is there, but you're probably going to sit through millions of really badly written, amateurish stories before you get one that's half as decent as something the man could babble in delirium.
...?
Ok, you compare a video game to the works of the arguable father of modern existentialism, and yet tell me my analogy is irrelevant? Telling people what to do vs. providing them the tools to do it themselves is not at all irrelevant - it's exactly the heart of the matter. I can't help that you completely missed the point.
Art is directed in every game; just providing something to look at sets the tone. Storytelling the way Bioware is doing it, however, is a brand new concept that nobody else has tried yet. I never said anything about Bioware failing anything. I think it'll be a fun game, and I'll certainly play it. But whereas the industry is primarily involved in giving as much directed content as possible, not requiring the player to think for themselves in most cases, then while the 4th pillar of Story, as Bioware describes it, is certainly an innovation, it is not evolution.
If you were to write out your character's story in a normal game like WoW or AoC, it would say something to the effect of "I was born outside Stormwind. I killed 10 murlocs. I found out about a conspiracy. I then killed 10 more murlocs. Finally, I slayed the dragon and brought peace to the land." Everyone who plays the game is going to have some similar variation of that story. No question that Bioware will massively enhance the user experience of that, but the fact is THEY are still writing your story. The story itself will in all probability be epic, but the beginning and the end are already written for you. Again, innovation, and likely a fun one, but not an evolution.
Missing both the point and the heart of the matter are entirely on your part. And yes, my analogy is relevant. Here's a play-by-play:
There's a sucker born every minute. - P.T. Barnum
the thing is this:
if Bioware can take all that we love about the traditional MMORPG and ADD a great element of story....we will be progressing.
If, however, traditional elements of MMORPGs are tossed out in favor of a restrictive story, we will be regressing.
From what we've read and seen in interviews, it SOUNDS like the latter...but if it turns out to be the former, it could change the industry forever.
You bastard! you've condemned us all! noooooooooooooooooooo.
As long as they don't make the end game all about raiding and give other viable options. Biggest fear is the wow raiding crowd destroying another game.
The worst thing that could happen 1) The game is great and my real life suffers from my addiction to play the game
2) The game sucks, and I'll keep dreaming of a game that will give me my mmo-sci-fi fix
3) The game is somewhere in betweeen, and I feel the need to warn everyone visiting mmorpg.com to even try the game for themselves. (actually this is the worst, cos that will mean I have nothing better to do/play)
"nerf rock, paper is working as intended."
- Scissors.
Head Chop
Whats the worst that could happen ?
All of my kids want to play it too
The Worst..? LucasArts interfere and force a KotOR 2 again - a game that had everything to be the blockbuster sequel (you could even see it in the game) but fell awfully short of it, being almost the same thing, having broken dialogs, unfinished and with no end. Not that these things apply to an MMOG, but the unfinished part would be terrible - just look at AoC, that also had everything goin for it (great experienced company, awesome IP, great engine) but until today fights against launch problems.
OK, Kylrathin, I'll try to explain myself further one last time - without all the quoting which I suspect is wearing people's eyeballs out
And instead of responding to everything point by point, I'll try to outline:
You imply that an MMO based mostly on directed content is inherently "backwards", and I think that is simplistic dismissive behaviour. I think you can take an MMO as a "story-centered" form of game foremost and build other aspects over and around the story, and that this type of game design *can* work - and, who knows, depending on how you do do it, it *may* feel fresh! (Let's not pursue the "implementation of art is open-ended" line of discussion, you know as well as I do it's not related to what I'm talking about, and has no bearing at all in the matter). I'm thinking we agree on some points here.
I think this sort of MMO design has merit and comparing it to tyranny does not make much sense (actually, most of my post was a response to that analogy). In essense, I'm saying: "What, demanding a good storytelling experience from an MMO is like applying to live in a dictatorship now?" To me, that line of thinking is unfair to both the storytellers and the "story fan" players.
With the "failing" part,what I said was: If you set your mind on making a story-based MMO as Bioware is doing, you cannot go the classical sandbox route: You have to provide a lot of directed content or the model will not work. In your post that I quoted, you were arguing against directed content, so this bit was in response to it. So, yes, it did have context. I'm sorry it went the way of cheese for you.
On a last note, I agree with you that a game cannot be "just a novel". It has to have an interactive aspect that makes sense and feels rewarding. I was just talking about the story aspect of the game - and I did underline this in the closing part of my post. I have a problem with how such a potentially profound aspect of games tends to get dismissed and I have no patience with poor storytelling. It's not about "personal preference" in sandboxes, I do play sandboxes like EVE, I just want other kinds of MMO experiences, too. Like story-based MMOs. And sandboxes just don't cut it for your story needs.
Of course I'm hoping Bioware's MMO will not just be "play and reroll", that it's solely story. I'm hoping, like Wharg0ul said, that Bioware can hit the note on both scales.
The worst thing for me would be the feeling that this is the same old game reskinned for Star Wars.
Theme park, obvious classes, obvious rat-run gameplay, no innovation - just grind.
KotOR 1 (and NWN 1) was one of, if not the, best RPG ever made IMO. I just hope the MMO gives the same feeling of being part of a movie as that did.