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not what i was hoping for

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  • GinazGinaz Member RarePosts: 2,380
    Originally posted by calmness

    Originally posted by Ginaz


    Hearing the word "sandbox", as applied to mmo's, is really starting to annoy me now.  Almost as much as "iconic" and "star warsy".



     

    Thats's your problem. Deal with it rather than having a tantrum at people who use it.

     

    The only ones having a tantrum are the ones who are still obsessed with swg, pre-cu and "sandboxes".

    Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

    Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.

  • catlanacatlana Member Posts: 1,677
    Originally posted by calmness

    Originally posted by catlana




     
    Lol, I agree the OP is pretty dense. Bioware is know as one of the premier story tellers in gaming today. Mass effect, Kotor, Kotor2, etc all sell millions based on the quality of thier stories. Yet he wants them to throw all of that away and make another boring sand box game?



     

    Stop insulting people because they have a different vision of what this game is - and ought to be.

    'Another boring sand box game'?



     

    So you went through the trouble of creating a account to tell me what to do? Sorry, life does not work that way and the world does not revolve around you.

     

    Sand box games fill a very small niche because the majority of people find them boring. There is a very limited appeal to most people about working in another enviroment. I already have a job. My job pays me alot of money to work. I do not need to work in a video game (aka open sandbox).

     

    Now, Bioware is a company that sells millions of copies of games for a reason. Bioware is noted for their story telling ability as well as gameplay. To think their strengths will not be present in a game that they design is rather silly.  Bioware will try to make a game that their fans (Kotor, Kotor2, Mass effect, etc) like. If Bioware succeeds in following their traditional motiff,  the game will sell millions that is the bottom line.

  • GinazGinaz Member RarePosts: 2,380
    Originally posted by calmness

    Originally posted by Ginaz

    Originally posted by calmness

    Originally posted by Ginaz


    Hearing the word "sandbox", as applied to mmo's, is really starting to annoy me now.  Almost as much as "iconic" and "star warsy".



     

    Thats's your problem. Deal with it rather than having a tantrum at people who use it.

     

    The only ones having a tantrum are the ones who are still obsessed with swg, pre-cu and "sandboxes".



     

    Then go and discuss this with the Vets in the SWG Vets forum rather than cluttering up the ToR forum with your irrelevancies?

    Thanks

    Well, the problem with that is that the "swg vets" clutter up this forum with all their pre-cu, sandbox irrelevancies. Like I said, this game was never meant to be swg 2.  Understand?

    Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

    Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.

  • Wharg0ulWharg0ul Member Posts: 4,183
    Originally posted by Ginaz

    Originally posted by calmness

    Originally posted by Ginaz

    Originally posted by calmness

    Originally posted by Ginaz


    Hearing the word "sandbox", as applied to mmo's, is really starting to annoy me now.  Almost as much as "iconic" and "star warsy".



     

    Thats's your problem. Deal with it rather than having a tantrum at people who use it.

     

    The only ones having a tantrum are the ones who are still obsessed with swg, pre-cu and "sandboxes".



     

    Then go and discuss this with the Vets in the SWG Vets forum rather than cluttering up the ToR forum with your irrelevancies?

    Thanks

    Well, the problem with that is that the "swg vets" clutter up this forum with all their pre-cu, sandbox irrelevancies. Like I said, this game was never meant to be swg 2.  Understand?



     

    what you KIND fails to realise or remember, is that it was the SWG "vets' that nagged and begged and teased for years to get an MMO version of KOTOR made. We were the ones who made this game possible...but then Bioware went and shafted us by targeting the wow-kiddies.

    Most of us have written TOR off already, and turned our backs on LEC. Once again a case of someone shitting on the people who got them there, in favor of attracting the "masses". They learned NOTHING from the NGE, apparently.

    I'm going to laugh my trollish ass off when two months after release, everyone goes back to wow, and LEC is left with a gold-plated lump of themepark feces, wondering "what went wrong", and how they could have possibly failed to "beat wow" with a Star Wars game.

    They don't get it. And neither do you.

     

    image

  • GinazGinaz Member RarePosts: 2,380
    Originally posted by Wharg0ul

    Originally posted by Ginaz

    Originally posted by calmness

    Originally posted by Ginaz

    Originally posted by calmness

    Originally posted by Ginaz


    Hearing the word "sandbox", as applied to mmo's, is really starting to annoy me now.  Almost as much as "iconic" and "star warsy".



     

    Thats's your problem. Deal with it rather than having a tantrum at people who use it.

     

    The only ones having a tantrum are the ones who are still obsessed with swg, pre-cu and "sandboxes".



     

    Then go and discuss this with the Vets in the SWG Vets forum rather than cluttering up the ToR forum with your irrelevancies?

    Thanks

    Well, the problem with that is that the "swg vets" clutter up this forum with all their pre-cu, sandbox irrelevancies. Like I said, this game was never meant to be swg 2.  Understand?



     

    what you KIND fails to realise or remember, is that it was the SWG "vets' that nagged and begged and teased for years to get an MMO version of KOTOR made. We were the ones who made this game possible...but then Bioware went and shafted us by targeting the wow-kiddies.

    Most of us have written TOR off already, and turned our backs on LEC. Once again a case of someone shitting on the people who got them there, in favor of attracting the "masses". They learned NOTHING from the NGE, apparently.

    I'm going to laugh my trollish ass off when two months after release, everyone goes back to wow, and LEC is left with a gold-plated lump of themepark feces, wondering "what went wrong", and how they could have possibly failed to "beat wow" with a Star Wars game.

    They don't get it. And neither do you.

     

    Oh, I get it.  However, like always, the "swg vets" think they're more important than what they really are.  I highly doubt disgruntled vets had very much to do with the decision to make a new Star Wars mmo.  And when you say "most of us have written TOR off already" I hope you mean the disgruntled swg, pre-cu4TW types because theres many more people that are keenly interested and excited for this game.

    Its completely unreasonable to write this game off this early just because its not your precious pre-cu sandbox.  No one knows what its going to be like yet and anyone that says they do is talking out of their ass.

    Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

    Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,979
    Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan


    So let me get this straight.
    You saw Star Wars.....The Old Republic....made by Bioware....and somehow thought: sandbox large-scale political territory control with in-depth security status and crafting. Craaaaazzzyyyyyyy.
    Maybe you got this confused with Earthrise somehow
    Earthrise = Eve with characters. Now go off and play with your friends on the interstate.



     

    lol great post.

    Only thing I am worried about with ToR is balance... why? 

    Well, every Bioware game I've played you've created an entire party, and generally the "best" most optimal way to roll was to use your NPC friends to compliment your character's strengths and make up for your characters weaknesses.

    Like playing Mass Effect as a Soldier I found it best to use Talia and the Asari chick cause then you'd have perfect balance between Combat/Biotics/Tech. Was the same in KOTOR with the Jedi healer, my melee lightsaber uberness, and a ranged DPS guy/Jedi.

    I bet this is exactly why Bioware is using the Companion system for ToR, so you can create your own little party to maximize your soloing potential like every other Bioware game I've played...

    But what I'm worried about is the balance when you throw in grouping with other players, will you keep your companions too and how will that not be OP having all the players + their companions? 



    And for PvP, how do you really balance Jedi vs. BH vs. Soldier etc.

    Sure, an elite BH could take out a scrub Jedi, but there is NO level playing field.

    Obi-wan vs. Jango was not realistic at all, it was actually quite retarded. Obi-wan was more capable in Episdoe 1 as a Padawn then he was in that movie as a full Jedi. They did it ONLY to be "cool."

    But Mace Windu vs. Jango was 100% accurate to how it'd really be. Or random "insert Jedi name" versus troopers/soldiers/whatever.

    It just can't be balanced and be realistic.

  • jjjk29jjjk29 Member Posts: 295

      Im shocked.... Really..

      TOR will be nothing like Eve.  Never.  SWG was nothing like Eve.  Yea Jump to Lightspeed = space flight.  But it was more fun than Eve, mainly because you could get out of your ship and actually do something.....

     

     

  • KarahandrasKarahandras Member UncommonPosts: 1,703

    That's one question answered anyway.  If the fanboi responses are any indication of what the ingame community will be like, I now know why they made tor a single player game.

     

    I too am disappointed by SWTOR, i didn't like  the kotor games, bioware seemed to have taken the baldurs gate games, dumbed it down as far as they could go, made it 3d with bad camera angles. slapped some lightsabres in and released into the console market.

    since swtor was being aimed at the pc market i was hoping they were going to bring the level of the games back up to the likes of baldurs gate etc. not push it further away

  • Wharg0ulWharg0ul Member Posts: 4,183
    Originally posted by Karahandras


    That's one question answered anyway.  If the fanboi responses are any indication of what the ingame community will be like, I now know why they made tor a single player game.
     



     

    This.

    image

  • Lord_IxiganLord_Ixigan Member Posts: 548
    Originally posted by Karahandras


    That's one question answered anyway.  If the fanboi responses are any indication of what the ingame community will be like, I now know why they made tor a single player game.
     
    I too am disappointed by SWTOR, i didn't like  the kotor games, bioware seemed to have taken the baldurs gate games, dumbed it down as far as they could go, made it 3d with bad camera angles. slapped some lightsabres in and released into the console market.
    since swtor was being aimed at the pc market i was hoping they were going to bring the level of the games back up to the likes of baldurs gate etc. not push it further away



     

    I get where you're coming from, but SWG vets (guess what, I'm one of them) are the nastiest bunch of PO'ed, obsessed fanbois out there. I was pissed when SOE ruined my Jedi hunting fun on my MBH/MCM, my buddy and I hunted Jedi as a pair and had a freaking blast doing it. Then that got ruined and both of us got piseed off, but the difference is I LET THE FUCK GO!

    I love sanbox games, but trying to yell and scream and kick like a five year old thinking that will get a major corporation to do what you want is just plain moronic. Sandbox games are making another run of things with MO and ER, if those games fail, which they -may-, then the sandbox genre is done.

    The problem with strictly sandbox fanbois is the vast majority of you are uncompromising and you DEMAND that EVERYTHING is 100% -perfect- at release. If everything isn't perfect then you lot flame it, put it down, kick it, piss on it and all manner of 'on it''s you can think of. DF was a piece of crap, AV tried to do too much with too little, people should have seen it coming....I know I sure as hell did.

    MO is being run by a far more organized, open and community-connected team than DF is. Does that mean it will succeed? No. It won't be perfect at release, only a handful of games in the ENTIRE HISTORY of the video game industry have even come close. SV has listed what features that they plan to have completed for release, which is a lot of stuff, but it's not the perfect idealized list that most sandbox fanatics would want. If this rabid, way too vocal section of the rest of us sandbox fans can shut their freaking yaps then the genre might have a chance.

    ER and MO are probably going to be the last attempts at reasonably well-funded, professional companies making sandbox mmo's. They could release and truly be bugged-out pieces of crap. The chances are also equally good that they'll come out in really good shape, but may not be exactly perfect and then the rabid dogs will jump all over it. There are right and wrong ways to go about getting what you want and acting like a five year old is never the right way.

     

    [Mod Edit]

  • FikusOfAhaziFikusOfAhazi Member Posts: 1,835
    Originally posted by jjjk29


      Im shocked.... Really..
      TOR will be nothing like Eve.  Never.  SWG was nothing like Eve.  Yea Jump to Lightspeed = space flight.  But it was more fun than Eve, mainly because you could get out of your ship and actually do something.....
     
     



     

    LOL, i think he was saying eve with avatars, not an eve clone. An eve clone would be the farthest thing from SW as you could possibly get. I wouldnt mind a JTL space portion, that had crafting and territory control like eve, if it could be kept seperate from the rest. I don't think an EVE type economy would work in TOR though. Its a nice dream, just the wrong setting. A sim in KOTOR would feel weird.

    What i would really like to see is Raiding that is against impossible numbers instead of a boss. It could scale from 1 person to 25 so anyone could do it. And everyone gets "random" rewards that are only tradeable inside the raid. That would fix everything I Despise about raiding i think.

    And some stuff to do in your downtime. Having the abilty or even reason to chat would be nice..unlike warhammer. It being a SW game, makes it a social game. SW fans are going to interact. Would be nice to see that encouraged through the game somehow.

    See you in the dream..
    The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.

  • Wharg0ulWharg0ul Member Posts: 4,183
    Originally posted by Ginaz


    Oh, I get it.  However, like always, the "swg vets" think they're more important than what they really are.  I highly doubt disgruntled vets had very much to do with the decision to make a new Star Wars mmo.  And when you say "most of us have written TOR off already" I hope you mean the disgruntled swg, pre-cu4TW types because theres many more people that are keenly interested and excited for this game.
    Its completely unreasonable to write this game off this early just because its not your precious pre-cu sandbox.  No one knows what its going to be like yet and anyone that says they do is talking out of their ass.



     

    Your doubt just goes to show how little you actually know about how this title came about. Might want to check out the history of this game a bit more, and in particular the actual Bioware forums.

    SWG vets are pissed because after our last game was RUIED in the persuit of the wow-crowd, when we finally got the announcement that the game we'd begged for was being made...it too was being targeted at the wow-crowd.

    And now, these wow-kiddies have the NERVE to to tell us we don't have the right to be pissed, and to GTFO.

    And yeah, it IS reasonable to write the game off this early, because we know what kind of game it will NOT be...one with depth, and more to do than follow rails.

    And so I leave you all who are "keenly excited" about this game....you're the people who will play it...for 3 months tops before moving onto the next game that you're "keenly excited" for.

     

    image

  • Lord_IxiganLord_Ixigan Member Posts: 548
    Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

    Originally posted by jjjk29


      Im shocked.... Really..
      TOR will be nothing like Eve.  Never.  SWG was nothing like Eve.  Yea Jump to Lightspeed = space flight.  But it was more fun than Eve, mainly because you could get out of your ship and actually do something.....
     
     



     

    LOL, i think he was saying eve with avatars, not an eve clone. An eve clone would be the farthest thing from SW as you could possibly get. I wouldnt mind a JTL space portion, that had crafting and territory control like eve, if it could be kept seperate from the rest. I don't think an EVE type economy would work in TOR though. Its a nice dream, just the wrong setting. A sim in KOTOR would feel weird.

    What i would really like to see is Raiding that is against impossible numbers instead of a boss. It could scale from 1 person to 25 so anyone could do it. And everyone gets "random" rewards that are only tradeable inside the raid. That would fix everything I Despise about raiding i think.

    And some stuff to do in your downtime. Having the abilty or even reason to chat would be nice..unlike warhammer. It being a SW game, makes it a social game. SW fans are going to interact. Would be nice to see that encouraged through the game somehow.



     

    If you want to encourage socialization then having any raid or dungeon content be soloable is a bad way to start.

    An epic raid like that should be a group of four to six people versus a whole bunch of mobs. I hope the party sizes are not a round number, just kinda boring imo. From there you should be able to scale the raid size up to about 20 people, which would hopefully get hectic as you include larger and larger numbers of mobs that are a little bit tougher.

    I'd also like to see raids that can be increased in difficulty. Number of people does NOT equate to difficulty, I have no idea where that notion came from. Difficulty equates to how many opponents, how smart they are, how hard they hit and how hard they need to be hit. Being able to take your group of seven buddies and do a raid with multiple difficulty increases on the same party-size setting would be fantastic.

    Also, they better not make it so you can use your npc companions for all the PVE. They better as hell bugger off after a certain level. Like they're just there for a portion of your storyline to help you learn the ropes, then leave.

  • Lord_IxiganLord_Ixigan Member Posts: 548
    Originally posted by Wharg0ul

    Originally posted by Ginaz


    Oh, I get it.  However, like always, the "swg vets" think they're more important than what they really are.  I highly doubt disgruntled vets had very much to do with the decision to make a new Star Wars mmo.  And when you say "most of us have written TOR off already" I hope you mean the disgruntled swg, pre-cu4TW types because theres many more people that are keenly interested and excited for this game.
    Its completely unreasonable to write this game off this early just because its not your precious pre-cu sandbox.  No one knows what its going to be like yet and anyone that says they do is talking out of their ass.



     

    Your doubt just goes to show how little you actually know about how this title came about. Might want to check out the history of this game a bit more, and in particular the actual Bioware forums.

    SWG vets are pissed because after our last game was RUIED in the persuit of the wow-crowd, when we finally got the announcement that the game we'd begged for was being made...it too was being targeted at the wow-crowd.

    And now, these wow-kiddies have the NERVE to to tell us we don't have the right to be pissed, and to GTFO.

    And yeah, it IS reasonable to write the game off this early, because we know what kind of game it will NOT be...one with depth, and more to do than follow rails.

    And so I leave you all who are "keenly excited" about this game....you're the people who will play it...for 3 months tops before moving onto the next game that you're "keenly excited" for.

     



     

    Alright uhhhh, you know SWG vets -do- have a strong sense of delusion when it comes to stuff like this, right? Unless you guys somehow had at least 200k+ people posting on the Bioware forums you didn't do anything. It's just business, nothing more and nothing less. MMO's are expensive, really expensive and unless a major company can justify the money spent they won't do it.

    Were you guys really surprised though, really? Did you guys even play KOTOR? Were those games seriously sandbox heaven? No, hhellllllllllll no. They were pretty good RPG's, but they weren't sandbox, they weren't even that in-depth and they were pretty mainstream oriented.

    Oh yeah and then you guys must have completely missed the whole massive announcement when EA bought Bioware. Big hint there....EA.......let me say that again, EEEEEE....AAAAAAAAAA. EA doesn't freaking think outside the box, huge indicator right there.

    You guys are only pissy because you couldn't see the very obvious signs right in front of your collective face. It's like getting pissed off at a company that makes vanilla ice cream, then they announce a new flavor and instead of vanilla it's french vanilla. Seriously, get over yourselves. A tiny bit of deductive reasoning would have given you guys the foresight to see what would happen if a KOTOR mmo were made. FFS and QFT.

  • FikusOfAhaziFikusOfAhazi Member Posts: 1,835
    Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

    Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

    Originally posted by jjjk29


      Im shocked.... Really..
      TOR will be nothing like Eve.  Never.  SWG was nothing like Eve.  Yea Jump to Lightspeed = space flight.  But it was more fun than Eve, mainly because you could get out of your ship and actually do something.....
     
     



     

    LOL, i think he was saying eve with avatars, not an eve clone. An eve clone would be the farthest thing from SW as you could possibly get. I wouldnt mind a JTL space portion, that had crafting and territory control like eve, if it could be kept seperate from the rest. I don't think an EVE type economy would work in TOR though. Its a nice dream, just the wrong setting. A sim in KOTOR would feel weird.

    What i would really like to see is Raiding that is against impossible numbers instead of a boss. It could scale from 1 person to 25 so anyone could do it. And everyone gets "random" rewards that are only tradeable inside the raid. That would fix everything I Despise about raiding i think.

    And some stuff to do in your downtime. Having the abilty or even reason to chat would be nice..unlike warhammer. It being a SW game, makes it a social game. SW fans are going to interact. Would be nice to see that encouraged through the game somehow.



     

    If you want to encourage socialization then having any raid or dungeon content be soloable is a bad way to start.

    An epic raid like that should be a group of four to six people versus a whole bunch of mobs. I hope the party sizes are not a round number, just kinda boring imo. From there you should be able to scale the raid size up to about 20 people, which would hopefully get hectic as you include larger and larger numbers of mobs that are a little bit tougher.

    I'd also like to see raids that can be increased in difficulty. Number of people does NOT equate to difficulty, I have no idea where that notion came from. Difficulty equates to how many opponents, how smart they are, how hard they hit and how hard they need to be hit. Being able to take your group of seven buddies and do a raid with multiple difficulty increases on the same party-size setting would be fantastic.

    Also, they better not make it so you can use your npc companions for all the PVE. They better as hell bugger off after a certain level. Like they're just there for a portion of your storyline to help you learn the ropes, then leave.



     

    I dont think raiding encourages socializing they way it is now. Being the the loot is random, and only tradeable inside the raid, a solo player would have to do many more raids to get something of use, where as the larger the group could trade with each other while still inside. This will be a healthier way of socializing, plus encourage interaction in a socializing way via finding out who got what and trading. It may cause problems of arguing over which jedi to trade with. I dunno, not a whole lot of thought put into it. Probably alot of issues i havnt thought of.

    I like the difficulty rating. Do it on very hard..just make it as impossible as hell lol. Would be fun with smaller groups. Give ya reason to go back rather than I havent gotten my boots yet. Maybe get a title and a unique loot item for beating it on the most difficult setting. Would be fun!

    I just think everyone should be able to participate in raids. Even soloers. Grouping should be strongly encouraged through saving time, not access to content and loot. People wanna have fun with other people, not be someones bitch over some gloves. But they wouldnt mind having those gloves. It's either that or item shops to get them IMO.

    See you in the dream..
    The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,960
    Originally posted by Wharg0ul

    Originally posted by Ginaz


    Oh, I get it.  However, like always, the "swg vets" think they're more important than what they really are.  I highly doubt disgruntled vets had very much to do with the decision to make a new Star Wars mmo.  And when you say "most of us have written TOR off already" I hope you mean the disgruntled swg, pre-cu4TW types because theres many more people that are keenly interested and excited for this game.
    Its completely unreasonable to write this game off this early just because its not your precious pre-cu sandbox.  No one knows what its going to be like yet and anyone that says they do is talking out of their ass.



     

    Your doubt just goes to show how little you actually know about how this title came about. Might want to check out the history of this game a bit more, and in particular the actual Bioware forums.

    SWG vets are pissed because after our last game was RUIED in the persuit of the wow-crowd, when we finally got the announcement that the game we'd begged for was being made...it too was being targeted at the wow-crowd.

    And now, these wow-kiddies have the NERVE to to tell us we don't have the right to be pissed, and to GTFO.

    And yeah, it IS reasonable to write the game off this early, because we know what kind of game it will NOT be...one with depth, and more to do than follow rails.

    And so I leave you all who are "keenly excited" about this game....you're the people who will play it...for 3 months tops before moving onto the next game that you're "keenly excited" for.

     



     

    I don't see that as the case at all. They never said that they were making a game that swg players begged for. All they said was that it was a Star Wars game and that it was in the style of KOTOR.

    It's just that players ran away with their imaginations and started infering things that were never there.

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  • Lord_IxiganLord_Ixigan Member Posts: 548

    If you're playing with a group of friends then you're never going to be anyone's bitch.....unless it's funny. I've never had the problems you're describing even when joining up on my own with a new guild. I'm a social person I guess and I don't particularly care about shinies.

    I -do- care about morons dragging on raid times because they make the same mistakes over and over again. Which is why I support smaller raid sizes.

    No mmo should be entirely soloable, if solo-players want a solo game then go buy a solo game. I don't get why you would pay monthly to play a game by yourself. And I'm completely against it because usually the content that is more fun, group oriented stuff, suffers when solo players whine and whine and whine and whine.

    This is why I usually go for harder games like Eve. Eve is fantastic because you can solo if you want to, you can play the entire game by yourself. Difference is you won't experience even half of what the game has to offer. Of course people view it differently because it's PvP.

    People should take that same mindset when applied to anything. Since you're playing an RPG, technically speaking everything you run into is another 'person'. Now, granted mobs shouldn't be as hard to kill as another person (on average), but the idea is the same. If you go to raid an opposing guild's outpost to loot resources, you are probably going to need more than just yourself. Same should be applied to pve raids, since the basic principle is the same. You're going into an enemy stronghold for one reason or another. Going in by yourself should be suicide, maybe you'll kill some things, but you shouldn't make it far.

    Anti-social people are the ones that can't make any connections with new folks they group with. I do it all the time, if I group with someone and they know what they're doing I'll friend em.

  • GinazGinaz Member RarePosts: 2,380
    Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan


    If you're playing with a group of friends then you're never going to be anyone's bitch.....unless it's funny. I've never had the problems you're describing even when joining up on my own with a new guild. I'm a social person I guess and I don't particularly care about shinies.
    I -do- care about morons dragging on raid times because they make the same mistakes over and over again. Which is why I support smaller raid sizes.
    No mmo should be entirely soloable, if solo-players want a solo game then go buy a solo game. I don't get why you would pay monthly to play a game by yourself. And I'm completely against it because usually the content that is more fun, group oriented stuff, suffers when solo players whine and whine and whine and whine.
    This is why I usually go for harder games like Eve. Eve is fantastic because you can solo if you want to, you can play the entire game by yourself. Difference is you won't experience even half of what the game has to offer. Of course people view it differently because it's PvP.
    People should take that same mindset when applied to anything. Since you're playing an RPG, technically speaking everything you run into is another 'person'. Now, granted mobs shouldn't be as hard to kill as another person (on average), but the idea is the same. If you go to raid an opposing guild's outpost to loot resources, you are probably going to need more than just yourself. Same should be applied to pve raids, since the basic principle is the same. You're going into an enemy stronghold for one reason or another. Going in by yourself should be suicide, maybe you'll kill some things, but you shouldn't make it far.
    Anti-social people are the ones that can't make any connections with new folks they group with. I do it all the time, if I group with someone and they know what they're doing I'll friend em.

    I'm personally hoping they find a way to eliminate raids, or at the very least reduce the need for them.

    Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

    Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.

  • RevthoughtRevthought Member Posts: 120
    Originally posted by Moirae

    Originally posted by Revthought

    Originally posted by Moirae

    Originally posted by illorion


    i was hoping that this game would be kinda like eve except avatar based and the quests wouldnt be horribly boring. However after reading all the dev crap i realize that it wont be what i was hoping for. SWG except with better combat and customization. However it looks like its gonna be one of those linear hand holding games

     

    Yeah well, I think what you were hoping is crap. Eve isn't a good game, dear. Its boring and frustrating. Yes, I've played it. I won't play it again.

     

    I'm glad its avatar play. Heck of alot more fun.

     

    As for the quests, they will do well. Its what Bioware does. And the quests are why I play games. If they didn't have it, I wouldn't be playing.

     

    You are in the vast minority of gamers. I am not.

     

    Eve is one of the best games ever made. And while it is all subjective, as they say, when it comes to aesthetics, most of those in the video gaming industry disagree with you completely.

     

    That's not to say I don't enjoy games like The Old Republic might become, I do, its just to tell you that you are as wrong as you can possibly be about eve, "dear."

     

    And? Whats your point, exactly? Just because you like it doesn't mean someone else does. Better to have this game be what made it popular in the first place than screwing over the style to become Eve. At the very least, you have to agree with that.

     

    My point being that you were wrong to degrade the original posters point of view because eve "isn't a good game." Nor do I think your snarky attitude in calling him  "dear" was warranted.

     

    Having said that, if you want my real opinion on game design, I'll offer it, while trying to be as brief as possible.

     

    I have a tremendous amount of faith in Bioware as a game development studio when it comes to making single player rpgs. They're the best in the business. Though, their resent take over by EA has mitigated my faith in Bioware somewhat.

     

    Though I've got some faith in Bioware I have a tremendous amount of concern when it comes to a KOTOR "story driven" MMO. First and foremost I'm worried that there simply will not be enough content. I'm worried that no matter what they do, Bioware's idea is going to result in a break of immersion because of the MMO status. Even if there are 100 different storyline "outcomes" between classes, you're probably going to end up with characters who have the exact same backstory as you do.

     

    This of course, breaks the immersion that I think Bioware is famous for in their single player games. Stacked on top of that is the fact that there are only so many quest lines within the realm of possibility. What happens when, as will certainly happen, you've run all the quests for your class? You've got a fully developed character with a well developed backstory.

     

    What do I do? Why do I continue to pay a monthly subscription fee? Certainly you could roll and alt and try it again with a different character class, but again... that only gets you so far. It is precisely this problem that I think could be aleviated somewhat by having an open ended sandbox for the end game at least--thus justifiying the references to eve.

     

    I'm also worried, though a little less, about the MMO character of the game? What exactly, given the model of "storytelling" that Bioware is using, is added by the MMO component? Why exactly do I want to socialize? To help other people run their "story" or have them help me run mine? What impact does cross play have on my own "story" and my character?

     

    I think these are serious issues that haven't been addressed completely--at least not to my satisfaction. Don't get me wrong, I will continue to follow the game and purchase it when it comes out.

     

    How long I, and others, continue to play it though is a different question. And a question that has serious implications for the long term success of the game.

     

    -R

  • FikusOfAhaziFikusOfAhazi Member Posts: 1,835
    Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan


    If you're playing with a group of friends then you're never going to be anyone's bitch.....unless it's funny. I've never had the problems you're describing even when joining up on my own with a new guild. I'm a social person I guess and I don't particularly care about shinies.
    I -do- care about morons dragging on raid times because they make the same mistakes over and over again. Which is why I support smaller raid sizes.
    No mmo should be entirely soloable, if solo-players want a solo game then go buy a solo game. I don't get why you would pay monthly to play a game by yourself. And I'm completely against it because usually the content that is more fun, group oriented stuff, suffers when solo players whine and whine and whine and whine.
    This is why I usually go for harder games like Eve. Eve is fantastic because you can solo if you want to, you can play the entire game by yourself. Difference is you won't experience even half of what the game has to offer. Of course people view it differently because it's PvP.
    People should take that same mindset when applied to anything. Since you're playing an RPG, technically speaking everything you run into is another 'person'. Now, granted mobs shouldn't be as hard to kill as another person (on average), but the idea is the same. If you go to raid an opposing guild's outpost to loot resources, you are probably going to need more than just yourself. Same should be applied to pve raids, since the basic principle is the same. You're going into an enemy stronghold for one reason or another. Going in by yourself should be suicide, maybe you'll kill some things, but you shouldn't make it far.
    Anti-social people are the ones that can't make any connections with new folks they group with. I do it all the time, if I group with someone and they know what they're doing I'll friend em.



     

    Don't get me wrong, I only play mmo's for the other people. I don't have problems that I was describing either. But, sometimes people think they're being ordered and barked at, when they're really just being told what needs to be done, or what they did wrong. Then they never go back. There is just so much wrong with raiding, it needs to go away for the good of games and of people IMO. I prefer content the whole faction works toward, whether solo, group or guild. But that would be more of an open ended type end game.

     Don't know why someone would only solo in an MMO, but its their choice, and its available. I think you can get the soloer to group if you can get them to a really specific area where groups for that raid gather. Not many people will spend hours on a random loot peice, but if you can get them there to try, they might get invited being that most groups will want maximum chance. The trick is making an area that you can make all that happen in. And with different difficulties ti could be repeatable enough, without requiring massive time. Prolly fail hard lol.

    But usually if everything is soloable..no one will group, and those that do will have a harder time finding a group. Its a fine line.

    See you in the dream..
    The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.

  • Wharg0ulWharg0ul Member Posts: 4,183
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Originally posted by Wharg0ul

    Originally posted by Ginaz


    Oh, I get it.  However, like always, the "swg vets" think they're more important than what they really are.  I highly doubt disgruntled vets had very much to do with the decision to make a new Star Wars mmo.  And when you say "most of us have written TOR off already" I hope you mean the disgruntled swg, pre-cu4TW types because theres many more people that are keenly interested and excited for this game.
    Its completely unreasonable to write this game off this early just because its not your precious pre-cu sandbox.  No one knows what its going to be like yet and anyone that says they do is talking out of their ass.



     

    Your doubt just goes to show how little you actually know about how this title came about. Might want to check out the history of this game a bit more, and in particular the actual Bioware forums.

    SWG vets are pissed because after our last game was RUIED in the persuit of the wow-crowd, when we finally got the announcement that the game we'd begged for was being made...it too was being targeted at the wow-crowd.

    And now, these wow-kiddies have the NERVE to to tell us we don't have the right to be pissed, and to GTFO.

    And yeah, it IS reasonable to write the game off this early, because we know what kind of game it will NOT be...one with depth, and more to do than follow rails.

    And so I leave you all who are "keenly excited" about this game....you're the people who will play it...for 3 months tops before moving onto the next game that you're "keenly excited" for.

     



     

    I don't see that as the case at all. They never said that they were making a game that swg players begged for. All they said was that it was a Star Wars game and that it was in the style of KOTOR.

    It's just that players ran away with their imaginations and started infering things that were never there.

    Perhaps I was not clear enough, or people are just too excited to have a chance to twist my words.

     

    We nagged Bioware for YEARS to make a KOTOR based MMORPG. I never SAID that they told ANYONE that they were making the specific game that we were asking for, as far as game type and mechanics.

    But if any of you anti-SWG-vet people would take two fucking seconds to review the Bioware forums, and some of the statements that followed the initial announcement of swtor (you know...the ones where they explain WHY they are making an MMORPG instead of KOTOR3) you can plainly see with your own fucking eyes that if it were not for us nagging them DAILY for an MMORPG, they wouldn't be making one at all....they'd be working on or already have released KOTOR3.

    The SHIT of it is, instead of listening to us, instead of making a game with depth and substance, they are making a glorified co-op game on rails.

    So fuck it. Fuck Bioware, Lucas Arts, the kiddies who don't think that we have any right to be bitter about Bioware chasing the wow-carrot, and especially those who don't even bother to know what they are talking about before they open their mouths.

    image

  • singsofdeathsingsofdeath Member UncommonPosts: 1,812
    Originally posted by Wharg0ul


    Perhaps I was not clear enough, or people are just too excited to have a chance to twist my words.

     
    We nagged Bioware for YEARS to make a KOTOR based MMORPG. I never SAID that they told ANYONE that they were making the specific game that we were asking for, as far as game type and mechanics.
    But if any of you anti-SWG-vet people would take two fucking seconds to review the Bioware forums, and some of the statements that followed the initial announcement of swtor (you know...the ones where they explain WHY they are making an MMORPG instead of KOTOR3) you can plainly see with your own fucking eyes that if it were not for us nagging them DAILY for an MMORPG, they wouldn't be making one at all....they'd be working on or already have released KOTOR3.
    The SHIT of it is, instead of listening to us, instead of making a game with depth and substance, they are making a glorified co-op game on rails.
    So fuck it. Fuck Bioware, Lucas Arts, the kiddies who don't think that we have any right to be bitter about Bioware chasing the wow-carrot, and especially those who don't even bother to know what they are talking about before they open their mouths.

     

    I used to lounge about on the BW Forums. And I'm sure there were as many SWG Vets as there were other people who asked for a KOTOR MMO. So...honestly, it seems a little as though  the SWG Vets overstate their own importance. 

     

    And also, show quite how brilliant they are. I mean...they looked at BioWare a company known more or less exclusively for linear story-driven RPG's with moral choices integrated into the storyline (they have never done anything else, except for their one RTS). They looked at this company and begged them to make an MMO, according to you. 

     

    And they actually expected a SWG v2.0? What logic was used there? Going to the company -LEAST- likely to make a Sandbox MMO? Why not go to the LucasArts forums instead (who actually hold the license, after all), and ask them to team up with...oh I don't know Bethesda maybe? Or with CCP? Or -any- company that has at least a little bit of a reputation to make open worlds? 

     

    So why don't you take a deep breath and realize that you are getting exactly what you were asking for, even if that's not what you actually wanted. ou are getting an MMO from BioWare and any person who knows the company even a little bit realized even before they announced it, that if they would do a KOTOR3 MMO, they would work with their strengths to do so. 

     

    And those have always been Storytelling, Moral Choices and *drumroll* branching, but linear storylines. 

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by Wharg0ul


    Perhaps I was not clear enough, or people are just too excited to have a chance to twist my words.

     
    We nagged Bioware for YEARS to make a KOTOR based MMORPG. I never SAID that they told ANYONE that they were making the specific game that we were asking for, as far as game type and mechanics.
    But if any of you anti-SWG-vet people would take two fucking seconds to review the Bioware forums, and some of the statements that followed the initial announcement of swtor (you know...the ones where they explain WHY they are making an MMORPG instead of KOTOR3) you can plainly see with your own fucking eyes that if it were not for us nagging them DAILY for an MMORPG, they wouldn't be making one at all....they'd be working on or already have released KOTOR3.
    The SHIT of it is, instead of listening to us, instead of making a game with depth and substance, they are making a glorified co-op game on rails.
    So fuck it. Fuck Bioware, Lucas Arts, the kiddies who don't think that we have any right to be bitter about Bioware chasing the wow-carrot, and especially those who don't even bother to know what they are talking about before they open their mouths.

    I do not know about that, this game was under way before the nge even hit, as it seems anyway. Bioware announced their MMO not to long after the nge as well. Of course they never revealed what the I.P. was and remained tight lipped up until the guy from EA spilled the beans. However I can not agree those who were more vocal after the nge, are responsible for bioware making any development decisions. If they were we would be seeing a different type of game being developed.

    We as sandbox fans just need to grasp the idea we are not where the money is. It sucks but that is the truth in the end. We are  (especially us SWG vets)  to hard to please. The biggest problem we pose toward devs is the speed in which we burn through what they create. Not to mention the fact that we are 90% of the time far more vocal than the average player.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Member Posts: 14,495
    Originally posted by Laughing-man

    Originally posted by illorion


    i was hoping that this game would be kinda like eve except avatar based and the quests wouldnt be horribly boring. However after reading all the dev crap i realize that it wont be what i was hoping for. SWG except with better combat and customization. However it looks like its gonna be one of those linear hand holding games

     

    I'm confused, why would it be anything but an online version of KOTOR?

    It is sounding like that is exactly what they are delivering...  Which if you are a fan of KOTOR this will be a fun game for sure.

    The way its being described to us sounds like KOTOR where everyone in your party is a real person rather than an NPC, which to me sounds interesting enough to warrent giving it a try.

     

     

    It does sound like a massive online version of KOTOR.

    Normally, I don't like quest driven games like what you do in WoW or WAR. Run around solo, with a huge list of stupid crappy things to do. Go here and give this guy that, and bring me 10 spider legs, and go kill 20 Krakens, and then come back and I'll give you boots of crappiness, and tell you to go do some more errands for me. Bleh!

    But, KOTOR was fun, and if it's that much fun, PLUS you can do the quests in groups I might like it.

     

     

    image

  • MoiraeMoirae Member RarePosts: 3,318

    Oh come on, seriously. One of the best game companies in the world is making this game and everyone is flipping out over nothing.

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