1) Bren putting in that stuff is NOT that Hercuelean of a task. I playing an indie developed Sci Fi game right now that has the majority of that stuff working in game right now. If 7 developers working in their spare time on a shoe string budget can accomplish that..... then a developer with a multi-million dollar budget can do it too. Whether they CHOOSE to put resources toward that or not... is another story... but it's certainly not an insurmountable hurdle. I work in the Tech industry, I know the amount of work that goes into accomplishing certain things
I know you're not seriously trying to compare a triple A title like STO with a little Indy game like StarQuest Online are you? Now just so you know I have nothing personal against SQO. It seems like a fun little game if you can get past the horrible controls, dated graphics and game universe full of vanilla content. The reason they were able to incorporate some of the things you suggested in SQO is that is the main part of the game. STO could do this as well if they plan on populating the universe with very generic and vanilla content like SQO did. STO is trying to make a very diverse and interesting game universe which makes it 100x more of a task then it was for SQO. Just the graphics alone make STO 100x the programming and artistic task than SQO was. The reason why SQO was able to do some of the things that you propose with 7 programmers is because they cut some serious corners in other parts of the game, mainly in the graphics and content departments. (And yes I have played SQO so I do know the game)
I work in the Tech industry as well... as a Programmer and I can tell you that with the monumental task that is the STO project already adding the things you propose, the way you proposed them would at least double if not triple the amount of assets and time STO would need to produce such a game. This game is already almost twice the game than everything that has come before it and you want to increase that by a factor of three or more. No developer would be stupid enough to take on such a task as their main objective is to get the game out in a reasonable amount of time so they can start to see a return on their investments.
1) Bren putting in that stuff is NOT that Hercuelean of a task. I playing an indie developed Sci Fi game right now that has the majority of that stuff working in game right now. If 7 developers working in their spare time on a shoe string budget can accomplish that..... then a developer with a multi-million dollar budget can do it too. Whether they CHOOSE to put resources toward that or not... is another story... but it's certainly not an insurmountable hurdle. I work in the Tech industry, I know the amount of work that goes into accomplishing certain things
I know you're not seriously trying to compare a triple A title like STO with a little Indy game like StarQuest Online are you? Now just so you know I have nothing personal against SQO. It seems like a fun little game if you can get past the horrible controls, dated graphics and game universe full of vanilla content. The reason they were able to incorporate some of the things you suggested in SQO is that is the main part of the game. STO could do this as well if they plan on populating the universe with very generic and vanilla content like SQO did. STO is trying to make a very diverse and interesting game universe which makes it 100x more of a task then it was for SQO. Just the graphics alone make STO 100x the programming and artistic task than SQO was. The reason why SQO was able to do some of the things that you propose with 7 programmers is because they cut some serious corners in other parts of the game, mainly in the graphics and content departments. (And yes I have played SQO so I do know the game)
I work in the Tech industry as well... as a Programmer and I can tell you that with the monumental task that is the STO project already adding the things you propose, the way you proposed them would at least double if not triple the amount of assets and time STO would need to produce such a game. This game is already almost twice the game than everything that has come before it and you want to increase that by a factor of three or more. No developer would be stupid enough to take on such a task as their main objective is to get the game out in a reasonable amount of time so they can start to see a return on their investments.
Bren
Eye candy is a nice bonus.... but it doesn't make a game.... it doesn't even make a game playable. Look at the MOO series.... MOO3 was a big step up in graphics quality from it's predecessors but it wasn't even 1/10th the game that MOO & MOO II were.
Great graphics may make the marketing guys happy, because they could put up some nice fancy screenshots/movies in thier materials and get the jaw drop factor. It may get some people to try the game, but it won't get anyone to stay. For customer retention...game play wins out over eye candy hands down. A game would be better served putting in EQ 1 graphics and concentrating resources on great gameplay.
I don't really see anything STO is doing that is so new and innovative and beyond what has already been done to death over 100 times. If anything it seems like a tired (and ill fitting) rehash of the same old stuff in a fancy new dress. Please inform me what features you are talking about that go so "far beyond" what is already out there in the market.
I'm simply using SQO as an example of what CAN be done by a small group of developers with a shoe-string budget. If they can achieve that.... then a big budget title should be able to one up them on game-play significantly and still put in decent graphics, UI design, QA and content.
It's NOT that huge of project (comparitively) to put in the systems I described...... nor does it prevent putting in good quality content. But your right....if they spend all thier development money on eye candy and none on gameplay....then it'll be tough to put in complex systems.
The systems I am describing are NOT that difficult to do from a programming perspective. The holo-deck... the training stuff...virtualy no extra programming.... just another way to do repeatable instances.
The Science and Engineering stuff.... take a look at the Fallen Earth (another Indy title) scavanging/crafting systems.
The Crew Health/Crime stuff.....If Sim City could do that 20 years ago... It shouldn't be that much of a challange for STO today.
Then all they need to do is make a few consoles for ship control...and some key rooms for the different factions ships and thier done (If SQO can do that and more..... there is no way a big budget title like STO can't do that..... and put in reasonable graphics and UI).
All this stuff is well within the capability of a big budget title to do..... existing MMO's already have systems that are easly as complex as the ones described.
STO could do it if they wanted to....they are just CHOOSING not to..... that's fine it's their call.... but the claim that it's impossible due to resource constraints is just plain bunk.
Your personal opinions about 'eye candy' is all fine and good but it is what makes or breaks a AAA title in today's market. If STO released with all of the options that you want with less than at least what is considered acceptable graphics it would bomb horribly. This is what the average Joe or Jane sees when they first pick up the box in the store and if they don't see something that catches their eye the box will get put back on the shelf without them even reading the game features. You may not care about at least good graphics but the vast majority of gamers do so they need all of the 'eye candy' so their game will sell... period. If you don't like that, too bad as that is just how it is.
All of these graphics combined with a vast game universe diverse with many possibilities and the random content generator take a lot of resources not only to produce every one but to get them to seamlessly work together in one game. You don't seem to grasp what a monumental undertaking this all can be. Then on top of all that you want them to produce 5-6 separate other games all with their own content to intertwine with what I mentioned above. This would be a task of monumental proportions.
Your average MMO makes several classes but they all do the same things. Essentially they kill mobs, do quests and craft but the way they do all of this is the same for every class. Sure, the classes may have unique abilities but their interaction with the game world is basically the same for all. What you are proposing is 5-6 separate 'Jobs' all with not only unique abilities but also totally unique ways that they interact with the game world. This would be the same thing as creating 5-6 separate games all working together under the main game. If you don't think that this would greatly increase the resources need to complete the game you are definitely not seeing the whole picture here. What you propose would greatly increase the production time for the game.
Bren
Edit: And must you end all of your posts with 30 lines of dead space? It makes your posts annoying to say the least.
Eye candy can help with box sales...but subscription based services live or die off thier monthlies. Which means retention. All the eye candy in the world won't stack up against solid game play for retention. Heck for box sales you don't even need quality game graphics....just nice box art.
Want some proof, look at WoW....even for it's day, graphics not so hot....yet the highest subbing MMO. Then look at Vanguard...very nice graphics....had pretty decent initial box sales..... game totaly flopped. A game doesn't have to have top notch graphics in order to do extremely well..... it's graphics just have to be not TOTALY horrible... that's not that hard or expensive (compared to other big budget titles) to do. SQO graphics wouldn't cut it, no......but pretty much any graphics engine released in that past 8 years should be good enough.
As far as the systems I described, they really aren't that tough to do,,,,sorry. Lets look at how other MMO's work. For example the Medical thing. Pretty much all MMO's have HP loss...and methods for healing HP loss..... on top of that pretty much all MMO also have conditions that apply to characters or targets Debuffs (bleeders, poison etc).... and pretty much all MMO's have functionality for removing those Debuffs..... which usualy includes certain classes using skills/abilities ....and also the use of consumable items that can do the same thing potions/scrolls/ etc. Most MMO's also have systems for crafting those Items (potions/scrolls) from raw materials.
You have pretty much the Base for the system the Medical Officer would use right there....ALREADY built into most MMO's as a standardly expected systems. You'd only need a couple tweaks to make it work exactly the way I described for a Medical Officer.
- You'd need a system for randomly applying a disease (debuff) to NPC crew members of a ship. Don't tell me that's too tough to do.... it's just a timer, table of conditions and function call to select a random item from that table.
- You'd need record how many NPC's on a given ship were diseased... just a field in the ship object (maybe more if you wanted to do it by dept) and just have the functions which control NPC performance when calculating stuff like ship speed check that field as a modifier when determining how the ship performed.
- You'd need a routiene that generated the NPC's reporting to sick bay for treatment.
- You'd need to create a "Diagnose" ability for the doctor (think of it like a Spell in any Fantasy MMO) to determine what disease the NPC had so it would be treated.
- Maybe a skill check for the doctor applying the medicine to treat the disease successfully.
- Rather then BUY the recipie for a medicine (potion) from a Vendor or FIND it in a chest like most other MMO's do... you'd have the doctor sit at his crafting station with the correct raw materials in hand and use another ability called "Research".... and if he was successfull it would give him the recipie for that medicine.
That's it. Pretty much everything that would be needed to make the Medical Officer proffesion work. I've just given you crude spec's for the system in less then 15 minutes. Heck I could probably even write the "business logic" code to make it work myself....and I'm probably the worst coder there is....haven't coded in 10 years. I just couldn't optimize that code or design the front end. No rocket science here. Pretty much the same systems that are standard in every MMO produced these days... plus a couple small routienes...and 3 Abilities that are probably easier to code then most spells are in a fantasy MMO.
Everything else is just content... in terms of filling up the disease table with different cool sounding disease names and thier difficulty to diagnose/cure..... and filling up the Medicine table with entries for the medicine... the disease it cures... the raw components neccessary...and some difficulty fields for reseaerching and applying (and what graphics to use)..
Bren, Eye candy can help with box sales...but subscription based services live or die off thier monthlies. Which means retention. All the eye candy in the world won't stack up against solid game play for retention. Heck for box sales you don't even need quality game graphics....just nice box art. Want some proof, look at WoW....even for it's day, graphics not so hot....yet the highest subbing MMO. Then look at Vanguard...very nice graphics....had pretty decent initial box sales..... game totaly flopped. A game doesn't have to have top notch graphics in order to do extremely well..... it's graphics just have to be not TOTALY horrible... that's not that hard or expensive (compared to other big budget titles) to do. SQO graphics wouldn't cut it, no......but pretty much any graphics engine released in that past 8 years should be good enough. As far as the systems I described, they really aren't that tough to do,,,,sorry. Lets look at how other MMO's work. For example the Medical thing. Pretty much all MMO's have HP loss...and methods for healing HP loss..... on top of that pretty much all MMO also have conditions that apply to characters or targets Debuffs (bleeders, poison etc).... and pretty much all MMO's have functionality for removing those Debuffs..... which usualy includes certain classes using skills/abilities ....and also the use of consumable items that can do the same thing potions/scrolls/ etc. Most MMO's also have systems for crafting those Items (potions/scrolls) from raw materials. You have pretty much the Base for the system the Medical Officer would use right there....ALREADY built into most MMO's as a standardly expected systems. You'd only need a couple tweaks to make it work exactly the way I described for a Medical Officer. - You'd need a system for randomly applying a disease (debuff) to NPC crew members of a ship. Don't tell me that's too tough to do.... it's just a timer, table of conditions and function call to select a random item from that table. - You'd need record how many NPC's on a given ship were diseased... just a field in the ship object (maybe more if you wanted to do it by dept) and just have the functions which control NPC performance when calculating stuff like ship speed check that field as a modifier when determining how the ship performed. - You'd need a routiene that generated the NPC's reporting to sick bay for treatment. - You'd need to create a "Diagnose" ability for the doctor (think of it like a Spell in any Fantasy MMO) to determine what disease the NPC had so it would be treated. - Maybe a skill check for the doctor applying the medicine to treat the disease successfully. - Rather then BUY the recipie for a medicine (potion) from a Vendor or FIND it in a chest like most other MMO's do... you'd have the doctor sit at his crafting station with the correct raw materials in hand and use another ability called "Research".... and if he was successfull it would give him the recipie for that medicine. That's it. Pretty much everything that would be needed to make the Medical Officer proffesion work. I've just given you crude spec's for the system in less then 15 minutes. Heck I could probably even write the "business logic" code to make it work myself....and I'm probably the worst coder there is....haven't coded in 10 years. I just couldn't optimize that code or design the front end. No rocket science here. Pretty much the same systems that are standard in every MMO produced these days... plus a couple small routienes...and 3 Abilities that are probably easier to code then most spells are in a fantasy MMO. Everything else is just content... in terms of filling up the disease table with different cool sounding disease names and thier difficulty to diagnose/cure..... and filling up the Medicine table with entries for the medicine... the disease it cures... the raw components neccessary...and some difficulty fields for reseaerching and applying (and what graphics to use)..
Well Mel, Lets just agree to disagree and move on as we are kinda high-jacking this thread. I will agree with you that game play is equally if not more important than graphics but I don't really see where what they are proposing is all that bad. Like I said before... let them get the game out in a functional state so we can all play and than add the stuff your talking about over time. They have already said that they plan on doing this so I guess you're just going to have to hope that they can do it right. Just to make it clear I never said your ideas were bad... just too time consuming to still get the game out in a reasonable amount of time. I personally would love to play the STO you describe eventually but would be more than satisfied with playing the game they are proposing at launch until they can get to that part of it.
Everything I've seen so far from Cryptic would suggest that this is just another MMO. But we are talking about Star Trek here. Its first real MMO should raise the MMO bar a little bit, but instead it just seems to being playing it safe. Besides, Cryptic has missed the essense of what Star Trek is all about. 4000 varied starships flying about the alpha quadrant is NOT Star Trek. While this game will probably look cool, and might even be more entertaining then EVE or any other recent Space MMO it will lack the true Star Trek soul I think.
Yeah I am getting the same impression. Just like Turbine turned the magnificent LotR lore into a plain WoW clone MMORPG I am afraid Cryptic will do something similar. Maybe not WoW clone but heavily instanced, easily accessible casual MMORPG that plays more like a single player game than an MMORPG. Which, unfourtanetely, seems to the norm these days.
Innovation seems to have gone straight out the window and it seems to be all about rehashing the same thing over and over but with different gfx.
So far I haven't read anything about this game that seems innovative. All I hear is instances, PvP zones, you controling a ship (and not a character, ala Eve) and so on.
Everything I've seen so far from Cryptic would suggest that this is just another MMO. But we are talking about Star Trek here. Its first real MMO should raise the MMO bar a little bit, but instead it just seems to being playing it safe. Besides, Cryptic has missed the essense of what Star Trek is all about. 4000 varied starships flying about the alpha quadrant is NOT Star Trek. While this game will probably look cool, and might even be more entertaining then EVE or any other recent Space MMO it will lack the true Star Trek soul I think.
Yeah I am getting the same impression. Just like Turbine turned the magnificent LotR lore into a plain WoW clone MMORPG I am afraid Cryptic will do something similar. Maybe not WoW clone but heavily instanced, easily accessible casual MMORPG that plays more like a single player game than an MMORPG. Which, unfourtanetely, seems to the norm these days.
Innovation seems to have gone straight out the window and it seems to be all about rehashing the same thing over and over but with different gfx.
So far I haven't read anything about this game that seems innovative. All I hear is instances, PvP zones, you controling a ship (and not a character, ala Eve) and so on.
I'm hoping for more than the EVE model. Characters as ships will limit the game greatly.As for instanced and casual, those are good ieas. "Hard core" mindset is a sure way to make sure the game does poorly and instancing allows them to control lag and include better things in the instances. I can agree with you on the game needs to be more than EVE in order to achieve success, but Star Trek has a huge built in fan base. The game needs to be casual, control pvp, and provide a Star Trek feel to it.
You are playing a video game. By definition that means you are not hardcore.
I'm hoping for more than the EVE model. Characters as ships will limit the game greatly.As for instanced and casual, those are good ieas. "Hard core" mindset is a sure way to make sure the game does poorly and instancing allows them to control lag and include better things in the instances. I can agree with you on the game needs to be more than EVE in order to achieve success, but Star Trek has a huge built in fan base. The game needs to be casual, control pvp, and provide a Star Trek feel to it.
Star Trek is anything but "casual" and "light". Everything about it screams hardcore (including the fanbase) so a casual WoW clone will never have a Star Trek feel, just like LOTRO does not have a LotR feel.
Instancing to control lag? Rubbish. There has been tons of MMORPGs which could handle houndreds of players in a confined area. Instancing makes you control lag in a cheap and easy way and your whole attitude of "needs to be casual, control PvP" bla bla is the reason why there are so many failed MMORPGs out there with zero innovation.
How does Star Trek scream hardcore? Is there some sort of Star Trek community foaming at the mouth to grind endless raids? Some group of red shirts hoping to slaughter people trying to quest. Maybe you're right and can poit me in the direction of these "hardcore" trek fans. How about a link, a magazine article, anything really....
Uncontrolled pvp destroys games. Games that are casual friendly are genrally more successful. There just aren't enough so called "hardcore" players out there for it to be all that economically viable. That's just the way of the world.
You are playing a video game. By definition that means you are not hardcore.
How does Star Trek scream hardcore? Is there some sort of Star Trek community foaming at the mouth to grind endless raids? Some group of red shirts hoping to slaughter people trying to quest. Maybe you're right and can poit me in the direction of these "hardcore" trek fans. How about a link, a magazine article, anything really.... Uncontrolled pvp destroys games. Games that are casual friendly are genrally more successful. There just aren't enough so called "hardcore" players out there for it to be all that economically viable. That's just the way of the world.
Oh I dont know. Could it be that thousands of fans have several conventions each year where they dress, act and talk like the characters in Star Trek? Or that there are gazzilion sites where everything from Impulse Engine tech to Klingon Language is carefully dissected and analyzed? And, yeah, Star Trek has created a whole LANGUAGE (Klingon). And finally did you know that several technologies are influenced by Star Trek stuff? Like the cellular phone?
If all of those doesnt say hardcore then I dont know what does. Observe that hardcore does not neccessarily mean hardcore PvP. Just that the game should be complex, vast and hard to master. That last thing we need is another WoW clone with casual and themepark type game for John Schmoe who can't be bothered to put in an effort to advance and want everything handed to him on a platter.
As for casual games being successful. Consider that the two of the most successful and well known fantasy IPs EVER (Lotr and D&D) was turned into those themepark, instanced, casualy POS and they now together got less than 5% of the, western, MMORPG market. If that isnt pathetic then I dont know what is. Also WAR, again one of the greated IPs ever, got less than 300k subscribers (and falling), yet another casual, themepark, dumbified MMORPG that trashed yet another awesome IP. And finally, AoC, with estimated subscriber base of 100k, another themepark, super instanced POS MMORPG for yet another great IP.
The market is saturated with casual, themepark, WoW wannabes. We don't need yet another one and specially not from the greatest sci-fi IP, EVER.
How does Star Trek scream hardcore? Is there some sort of Star Trek community foaming at the mouth to grind endless raids? Some group of red shirts hoping to slaughter people trying to quest. Maybe you're right and can poit me in the direction of these "hardcore" trek fans. How about a link, a magazine article, anything really.... Uncontrolled pvp destroys games. Games that are casual friendly are genrally more successful. There just aren't enough so called "hardcore" players out there for it to be all that economically viable. That's just the way of the world.
Oh I dont know. Could it be that thousands of fans have several conventions each year where they dress, act and talk like the characters in Star Trek? Or that there are gazzilion sites where everything from Impulse Engine tech to Klingon Language is carefully dissected and analyzed? And, yeah, Star Trek has created a whole LANGUAGE (Klingon). And finally did you know that several technologies are influenced by Star Trek stuff? Like the cellular phone?
If all of those doesnt say hardcore then I dont know what does. Observe that hardcore does not neccessarily mean hardcore PvP. Just that the game should be complex, vast and hard to master. That last thing we need is another WoW clone with casual and themepark type game for John Schmoe who can't be bothered to put in an effort to advance and want everything handed to him on a platter.
As for casual games being successful. Consider that the two of the most successful and well known fantasy IPs EVER (Lotr and D&D) was turned into those themepark, instanced, casualy POS and they now together got less than 5% of the, western, MMORPG market. If that isnt pathetic then I dont know what is. Also WAR, again one of the greated IPs ever, got less than 300k subscribers (and falling), yet another casual, themepark, dumbified MMORPG that trashed yet another awesome IP. And finally, AoC, with estimated subscriber base of 100k, another themepark, super instanced POS MMORPG for yet another great IP.
The market is saturated with casual, themepark, WoW wannabes. We don't need yet another one and specially not from the greatest sci-fi IP, EVER.here, here
lest we mention swg with originally more subs than those 4 put together(so i'm told), turned into a kiddie theme park and lost them all
and what about eve online (the non famous ip)much more 'hardcore' and since the fall of war is second on the list for sub numbers and still growing
1) Instancing is a good bang for your buck way of improving resource usage. Note that "instancing" doesn't have to imply "private instancing" .....just public instancing can make serious improvements for very little cost in terms of game-play.
For instance look at the way LORTO does building interiors. Essentialy every building interior is it's own public instance. Everyone that enters the building gets put in that same instance.... so it doesn't actualy segregate the community. Most people aren't terribly put off by the 3-5 second loading screen.
What it does for the game on the back-end is allow it to treat the building interior and exterior as seperate virtual spaces....That saves the game from having to do all the calculations to track the exact locations movements of all interior objects/mobs/characters for characters who are on the exterior and vice versa...... if no one is occupying that particular instance the server can even unload it saving more resources.
Compare that performance with something like Vanguard which boasted a "seemless" world with no loading screens or seperation between exteriors/interiors and "no instances". VG had huge performance issues because of this.....especialy around "zone bounderies".... they spent a huge amount of resources trying to address them.... for really very little gain.
That's why loading screens are so popular with Developers (even if thier just hidden ones).....because they provide a very good mechanism for optimizing resource usage with little game play costs.
2) Easly accessable and casual friendly by definition, tend to improve a games audience appeal. Note, that these are NOT mutualy exclusive with depth of gameplay. It's tough to do but the best designed games actually offer both. Look at Chess, for instance, the basic rules can be learned in 15 minutes. A casual person can learn and play a game over a lunch break.... and even start to get a feel for some of the strategies. However, no one would call Chess a shallow game. People spend decades learning and mastering strategies for playing the game.
The best games are like that...they can be played on many different levels.... simple and easy to pick up, quick to play for those who want a casual experience....but with a bottomless depth for those who want to delve deeper.
Unfortunately, it seems like Cryptic is going for more like checkers then chess..... but we'll see what happens when they release... hopefully my misgivings will be misplaced.
1) Instancing is a good bang for your buck way of improving resource usage. Note that "instancing" doesn't have to imply "private instancing" .....just public instancing can make serious improvements for very little cost in terms of game-play. For instance look at the way LORTO does building interiors. Essentialy every building interior is it's own public instance. Everyone that enters the building gets put in that same instance.... so it doesn't actualy segregate the community. Most people aren't terribly put off by the 3-5 second loading screen. What it does for the game on the back-end is allow it to treat the building interior and exterior as seperate virtual spaces....That saves the game from having to do all the calculations to track the exact locations movements of all interior objects/mobs/characters for characters who are on the exterior and vice versa...... if no one is occupying that particular instance the server can even unload it saving more resources. Compare that performance with something like Vanguard which boasted a "seemless" world with no loading screens or seperation between exteriors/interiors and "no instances". VG had huge performance issues because of this.....especialy around "zone bounderies".... they spent a huge amount of resources trying to address them.... for really very little gain. That's why loading screens are so popular with Developers (even if thier just hidden ones).....because they provide a very good mechanism for optimizing resource usage with little game play costs.
2) Easly accessable and casual friendly by definition, tend to improve a games audience appeal. Note, that these are NOT mutualy exclusive with depth of gameplay. It's tough to do but the best designed games actually offer both. Look at Chess, for instance, the basic rules can be learned in 15 minutes. A casual person can learn and play a game over a lunch break.... and even start to get a feel for some of the strategies. However, no one would call Chess a shallow game. People spend decades learning and mastering strategies for playing the game. The best games are like that...they can be played on many different levels.... simple and easy to pick up, quick to play for those who want a casual experience....but with a bottomless depth for those who want to delve deeper.
Unfortunately, it seems like Cryptic is going for more like checkers then chess..... but we'll see what happens when they release... hopefully my misgivings will be misplaced.
A well thought out post. I myself don't understand all the hooplah some players have with instances, but then again I haven't played as many MMOs as many have.. I few seconds wait isn't going to kill anyone, especially if it helps lead to a stable game. After experiencing SWG and all it's technical issues which were never fixed, I'm much more inclined towards stability over openess.
I love the direction Cryptic is going with this game. As if there aren't enough group focused MMOs out there already, even City of Heroes gives groupers a lot more benefits than soloers. You know, lots of people know how and love to socialize outside of the grouping mechanic, maybe you should learn how.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I'm hoping for more than the EVE model. Characters as ships will limit the game greatly.As for instanced and casual, those are good ieas. "Hard core" mindset is a sure way to make sure the game does poorly and instancing allows them to control lag and include better things in the instances. I can agree with you on the game needs to be more than EVE in order to achieve success, but Star Trek has a huge built in fan base. The game needs to be casual, control pvp, and provide a Star Trek feel to it.
Star Trek is anything but "casual" and "light". Everything about it screams hardcore (including the fanbase) so a casual WoW clone will never have a Star Trek feel, just like LOTRO does not have a LotR feel.
Instancing to control lag? Rubbish. There has been tons of MMORPGs which could handle houndreds of players in a confined area. Instancing makes you control lag in a cheap and easy way and your whole attitude of "needs to be casual, control PvP" bla bla is the reason why there are so many failed MMORPGs out there with zero innovation.
Trekkies are hardcore about the lore, not about hardcore, old school MMO mechanics and paradigms. The genre started out hardcore, how is it innovating to keep things hardcore?
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
1) Instancing is a good bang for your buck way of improving resource usage. Note that "instancing" doesn't have to imply "private instancing" .....just public instancing can make serious improvements for very little cost in terms of game-play. For instance look at the way LORTO does building interiors. Essentialy every building interior is it's own public instance. Everyone that enters the building gets put in that same instance.... so it doesn't actualy segregate the community. Most people aren't terribly put off by the 3-5 second loading screen. What it does for the game on the back-end is allow it to treat the building interior and exterior as seperate virtual spaces....That saves the game from having to do all the calculations to track the exact locations movements of all interior objects/mobs/characters for characters who are on the exterior and vice versa...... if no one is occupying that particular instance the server can even unload it saving more resources. Compare that performance with something like Vanguard which boasted a "seemless" world with no loading screens or seperation between exteriors/interiors and "no instances". VG had huge performance issues because of this.....especialy around "zone bounderies".... they spent a huge amount of resources trying to address them.... for really very little gain. That's why loading screens are so popular with Developers (even if thier just hidden ones).....because they provide a very good mechanism for optimizing resource usage with little game play costs.
2) Easly accessable and casual friendly by definition, tend to improve a games audience appeal. Note, that these are NOT mutualy exclusive with depth of gameplay. It's tough to do but the best designed games actually offer both. Look at Chess, for instance, the basic rules can be learned in 15 minutes. A casual person can learn and play a game over a lunch break.... and even start to get a feel for some of the strategies. However, no one would call Chess a shallow game. People spend decades learning and mastering strategies for playing the game. The best games are like that...they can be played on many different levels.... simple and easy to pick up, quick to play for those who want a casual experience....but with a bottomless depth for those who want to delve deeper.
Unfortunately, it seems like Cryptic is going for more like checkers then chess..... but we'll see what happens when they release... hopefully my misgivings will be misplaced.
A well thought out post. I myself don't understand all the hooplah some players have with instances, but then again I haven't played as many MMOs as many have.. I few seconds wait isn't going to kill anyone, especially if it helps lead to a stable game. After experiencing SWG and all it's technical issues which were never fixed, I'm much more inclined towards stability over openess.
Whether or not instancing is good really depends of how its done(or not over done so to speak). I agree with GrumpyMel 100% in his post above that if done right instancing can add a lot to a game. Examples of games that make good use instancing are LoTRO, WoW and some others. In these games they make use of instancing to relieve congestion in high traffic areas without taking players out of the main game world except in dungeons were they do it to make sure everyone can do quests and kill bosses without having to wait in line(like in EQ1). Games with poor use of instancing include GW and PotBS as they way overuse instancing to the point that you feel like your playing a single player game most of the time. It's games like these that have soured gamers toward instancing so now when they here the term they automatically think that a game will use them in the worst possible way.
I like a game that makes good use of instances as it not only adds gameplay stability but also is a lot less headaches for the player. But overuse of instances can be very bad as anything that takes your character out of the main game world for any length of time should be kept to an absolute minimum. The overuse of instances in the main reason games like GW and HG:L are not even considered MMO's by most gamers. This is because your character spends most of their online time in their own little instance and during that time you're basically playing a single player or limited multi-player game.
A well thought out post. I myself don't understand all the hooplah some players have with instances, but then again I haven't played as many MMOs as many have.. I few seconds wait isn't going to kill anyone, especially if it helps lead to a stable game. After experiencing SWG and all it's technical issues which were never fixed, I'm much more inclined towards stability over openess.
Whether or not instancing is good really depends of how its done(or not over done so to speak). I agree with GrumpyMel 100% in his post above that if done right instancing can add a lot to a game. Examples of games that make good use instancing are LoTRO, WoW and some others. In these games they make use of instancing to relieve congestion in high traffic areas without taking players out of the main game world except in dungeons were they do it to make sure everyone can do quests and kill bosses without having to wait in line(like in EQ1). Games with poor use of instancing include GW and PotBS as they way overuse instancing to the point that you feel like your playing a single player game most of the time. It's games like these that have soured gamers toward instancing so now when they here the term they automatically think that a game will use them in the worst possible way.
I like a game that makes good use of instances as it not only adds gameplay stability but also is a lot less headaches for the player. But overuse of instances can be very bad as anything that takes your character out of the main game world for any length of time should be kept to an absolute minimum. The overuse of instances in the main reason games like GW and HG:L are not even considered MMO's by most gamers. This is because your character spends most of their online time in their own little instance and during that time you're basically playing a single player or limited multi-player game.
Bren
You're right. I never really thought about WOW having instances until it got mentioned. I leveled to 40 before I got bored and I rarely saw instances during that time with the exception of dungeons. The rest of the game was completely open.
Give us the option to run a starship with our m8's, I don't and won't buy this if there are no interior options for your starship, I mean Star Trek is 90% about the crew ON the ship, not on a planet.
How does Star Trek scream hardcore? Is there some sort of Star Trek community foaming at the mouth to grind endless raids? Some group of red shirts hoping to slaughter people trying to quest. Maybe you're right and can poit me in the direction of these "hardcore" trek fans. How about a link, a magazine article, anything really.... Uncontrolled pvp destroys games. Games that are casual friendly are genrally more successful. There just aren't enough so called "hardcore" players out there for it to be all that economically viable. That's just the way of the world.
Oh I dont know. Could it be that thousands of fans have several conventions each year where they dress, act and talk like the characters in Star Trek? Or that there are gazzilion sites where everything from Impulse Engine tech to Klingon Language is carefully dissected and analyzed? And, yeah, Star Trek has created a whole LANGUAGE (Klingon). And finally did you know that several technologies are influenced by Star Trek stuff? Like the cellular phone?
If all of those doesnt say hardcore then I dont know what does. Observe that hardcore does not neccessarily mean hardcore PvP. Just that the game should be complex, vast and hard to master. That last thing we need is another WoW clone with casual and themepark type game for John Schmoe who can't be bothered to put in an effort to advance and want everything handed to him on a platter.
As for casual games being successful. Consider that the two of the most successful and well known fantasy IPs EVER (Lotr and D&D) was turned into those themepark, instanced, casualy POS and they now together got less than 5% of the, western, MMORPG market. If that isnt pathetic then I dont know what is. Also WAR, again one of the greated IPs ever, got less than 300k subscribers (and falling), yet another casual, themepark, dumbified MMORPG that trashed yet another awesome IP. And finally, AoC, with estimated subscriber base of 100k, another themepark, super instanced POS MMORPG for yet another great IP.
The market is saturated with casual, themepark, WoW wannabes. We don't need yet another one and specially not from the greatest sci-fi IP, EVER.here, here
lest we mention swg with originally more subs than those 4 put together(so i'm told), turned into a kiddie theme park and lost them all
and what about eve online (the non famous ip)much more 'hardcore' and since the fall of war is second on the list for sub numbers and still growing
Second on the popularity list of a hardcore oriented website. Subscription numbers for Eve don't even come close to WoW, LOTRO or Free Realms or Wizard 101, all of which are much more casual games.
Trekkies are hardcore about their IP, but that doesn't even remotely mean they will enjoy hardcore mechanics in a Star Trek MMO. As a matter of fact, any trekkie will be quick to point out that combat is a method of last resort and will be irritated by the combat focus of STO.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Casual, Hardcore, Fans, Instances, PvP... Its all comepletely meaningless if the true essesense of Star Trek is not present.
"...to explore strange new worlds, too seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before!"
Where is that in this game? I don't know how better to put it. A Star Trek MMO should have us doing those things and all the other things that the series and movies have shown us over the years. Exploration seems to be present, but it aslo smacks of a single player mapquest pleasure cruise. Why not allow players to form crews on a starship and go off on thier own 5 year missions? If that not in from the start then how can you really create an immersive experience for the rest of what should be in game. Away missions, player driven story, galactic politics, etc.
Perhaps I'm asking for too much from todays creative minds and technology. However, when I think Star Trek and MMO, I'm thinking that I become a character in one of the series, and I get to do the things I watch Kirk and Picard do. Instead I get to upgrade my ship/avatar until I have enough firepower to not die quickly in a instanced pvp starscape that might not even be in three dimensions. Don't get me wrong, some sweet 3d space combat action set in the Star Trek universe would be awesome. I just can't accept that this is what a ST MMO boils down to at all.
I read (and sometimes post) in the STO community forums. I read the website for STO. So far, there really is little known about the actual gameplay. What is known is there is going to be a lot of customisation of both players and ships in the game. There will be PvP but not open PvP. There will be some form of exploration. There will be space and ground combat. What is not known are the specifics. Until those become a little more clear, all the rants about how STO is not going to live up to expectations are pretty well moot.
I read (and sometimes post) in the STO community forums. I read the website for STO. So far, there really is little known about the actual gameplay. What is known is there is going to be a lot of customisation of both players and ships in the game. There will be PvP but not open PvP. There will be some form of exploration. There will be space and ground combat. What is not known are the specifics. Until those become a little more clear, all the rants about how STO is not going to live up to expectations are pretty well moot.
Well said. I will say that I have been disappointed with the lack of updates. TOR seems to have a new update every other week while this game hasn't given me anything new since that character creation video. It's gotten to the point that I no longer post on the official site because there isn't anything left to talk about.
I read (and sometimes post) in the STO community forums. I read the website for STO. So far, there really is little known about the actual gameplay. What is known is there is going to be a lot of customisation of both players and ships in the game. There will be PvP but not open PvP. There will be some form of exploration. There will be space and ground combat. What is not known are the specifics. Until those become a little more clear, all the rants about how STO is not going to live up to expectations are pretty well moot.
Well said. I will say that I have been disappointed with the lack of updates. TOR seems to have a new update every other week while this game hasn't given me anything new since that character creation video. It's gotten to the point that I no longer post on the official site because there isn't anything left to talk about.
Cryptic has been putting most of its efforts into launching Champions Online (due September 1). I expect that within a month or two of that launch that you will see a lot more activity over on the STO side, including an update of the website and forums. In fact, the guy in charge of the Champions project is moving his office over (actually downstairs) to the STO offices after launch of Champions. So, things WILL start to happen.
Comments
I know you're not seriously trying to compare a triple A title like STO with a little Indy game like StarQuest Online are you? Now just so you know I have nothing personal against SQO. It seems like a fun little game if you can get past the horrible controls, dated graphics and game universe full of vanilla content. The reason they were able to incorporate some of the things you suggested in SQO is that is the main part of the game. STO could do this as well if they plan on populating the universe with very generic and vanilla content like SQO did. STO is trying to make a very diverse and interesting game universe which makes it 100x more of a task then it was for SQO. Just the graphics alone make STO 100x the programming and artistic task than SQO was. The reason why SQO was able to do some of the things that you propose with 7 programmers is because they cut some serious corners in other parts of the game, mainly in the graphics and content departments. (And yes I have played SQO so I do know the game)
I work in the Tech industry as well... as a Programmer and I can tell you that with the monumental task that is the STO project already adding the things you propose, the way you proposed them would at least double if not triple the amount of assets and time STO would need to produce such a game. This game is already almost twice the game than everything that has come before it and you want to increase that by a factor of three or more. No developer would be stupid enough to take on such a task as their main objective is to get the game out in a reasonable amount of time so they can start to see a return on their investments.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
I know you're not seriously trying to compare a triple A title like STO with a little Indy game like StarQuest Online are you? Now just so you know I have nothing personal against SQO. It seems like a fun little game if you can get past the horrible controls, dated graphics and game universe full of vanilla content. The reason they were able to incorporate some of the things you suggested in SQO is that is the main part of the game. STO could do this as well if they plan on populating the universe with very generic and vanilla content like SQO did. STO is trying to make a very diverse and interesting game universe which makes it 100x more of a task then it was for SQO. Just the graphics alone make STO 100x the programming and artistic task than SQO was. The reason why SQO was able to do some of the things that you propose with 7 programmers is because they cut some serious corners in other parts of the game, mainly in the graphics and content departments. (And yes I have played SQO so I do know the game)
I work in the Tech industry as well... as a Programmer and I can tell you that with the monumental task that is the STO project already adding the things you propose, the way you proposed them would at least double if not triple the amount of assets and time STO would need to produce such a game. This game is already almost twice the game than everything that has come before it and you want to increase that by a factor of three or more. No developer would be stupid enough to take on such a task as their main objective is to get the game out in a reasonable amount of time so they can start to see a return on their investments.
Bren
Eye candy is a nice bonus.... but it doesn't make a game.... it doesn't even make a game playable. Look at the MOO series.... MOO3 was a big step up in graphics quality from it's predecessors but it wasn't even 1/10th the game that MOO & MOO II were.
Great graphics may make the marketing guys happy, because they could put up some nice fancy screenshots/movies in thier materials and get the jaw drop factor. It may get some people to try the game, but it won't get anyone to stay. For customer retention...game play wins out over eye candy hands down. A game would be better served putting in EQ 1 graphics and concentrating resources on great gameplay.
I don't really see anything STO is doing that is so new and innovative and beyond what has already been done to death over 100 times. If anything it seems like a tired (and ill fitting) rehash of the same old stuff in a fancy new dress. Please inform me what features you are talking about that go so "far beyond" what is already out there in the market.
I'm simply using SQO as an example of what CAN be done by a small group of developers with a shoe-string budget. If they can achieve that.... then a big budget title should be able to one up them on game-play significantly and still put in decent graphics, UI design, QA and content.
It's NOT that huge of project (comparitively) to put in the systems I described...... nor does it prevent putting in good quality content. But your right....if they spend all thier development money on eye candy and none on gameplay....then it'll be tough to put in complex systems.
The systems I am describing are NOT that difficult to do from a programming perspective. The holo-deck... the training stuff...virtualy no extra programming.... just another way to do repeatable instances.
The Science and Engineering stuff.... take a look at the Fallen Earth (another Indy title) scavanging/crafting systems.
The Crew Health/Crime stuff.....If Sim City could do that 20 years ago... It shouldn't be that much of a challange for STO today.
Then all they need to do is make a few consoles for ship control...and some key rooms for the different factions ships and thier done (If SQO can do that and more..... there is no way a big budget title like STO can't do that..... and put in reasonable graphics and UI).
All this stuff is well within the capability of a big budget title to do..... existing MMO's already have systems that are easly as complex as the ones described.
STO could do it if they wanted to....they are just CHOOSING not to..... that's fine it's their call.... but the claim that it's impossible due to resource constraints is just plain bunk.
Your personal opinions about 'eye candy' is all fine and good but it is what makes or breaks a AAA title in today's market. If STO released with all of the options that you want with less than at least what is considered acceptable graphics it would bomb horribly. This is what the average Joe or Jane sees when they first pick up the box in the store and if they don't see something that catches their eye the box will get put back on the shelf without them even reading the game features. You may not care about at least good graphics but the vast majority of gamers do so they need all of the 'eye candy' so their game will sell... period. If you don't like that, too bad as that is just how it is.
All of these graphics combined with a vast game universe diverse with many possibilities and the random content generator take a lot of resources not only to produce every one but to get them to seamlessly work together in one game. You don't seem to grasp what a monumental undertaking this all can be. Then on top of all that you want them to produce 5-6 separate other games all with their own content to intertwine with what I mentioned above. This would be a task of monumental proportions.
Your average MMO makes several classes but they all do the same things. Essentially they kill mobs, do quests and craft but the way they do all of this is the same for every class. Sure, the classes may have unique abilities but their interaction with the game world is basically the same for all. What you are proposing is 5-6 separate 'Jobs' all with not only unique abilities but also totally unique ways that they interact with the game world. This would be the same thing as creating 5-6 separate games all working together under the main game. If you don't think that this would greatly increase the resources need to complete the game you are definitely not seeing the whole picture here. What you propose would greatly increase the production time for the game.
Bren
Edit: And must you end all of your posts with 30 lines of dead space? It makes your posts annoying to say the least.
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
Bren,
Eye candy can help with box sales...but subscription based services live or die off thier monthlies. Which means retention. All the eye candy in the world won't stack up against solid game play for retention. Heck for box sales you don't even need quality game graphics....just nice box art.
Want some proof, look at WoW....even for it's day, graphics not so hot....yet the highest subbing MMO. Then look at Vanguard...very nice graphics....had pretty decent initial box sales..... game totaly flopped. A game doesn't have to have top notch graphics in order to do extremely well..... it's graphics just have to be not TOTALY horrible... that's not that hard or expensive (compared to other big budget titles) to do. SQO graphics wouldn't cut it, no......but pretty much any graphics engine released in that past 8 years should be good enough.
As far as the systems I described, they really aren't that tough to do,,,,sorry. Lets look at how other MMO's work. For example the Medical thing. Pretty much all MMO's have HP loss...and methods for healing HP loss..... on top of that pretty much all MMO also have conditions that apply to characters or targets Debuffs (bleeders, poison etc).... and pretty much all MMO's have functionality for removing those Debuffs..... which usualy includes certain classes using skills/abilities ....and also the use of consumable items that can do the same thing potions/scrolls/ etc. Most MMO's also have systems for crafting those Items (potions/scrolls) from raw materials.
You have pretty much the Base for the system the Medical Officer would use right there....ALREADY built into most MMO's as a standardly expected systems. You'd only need a couple tweaks to make it work exactly the way I described for a Medical Officer.
- You'd need a system for randomly applying a disease (debuff) to NPC crew members of a ship. Don't tell me that's too tough to do.... it's just a timer, table of conditions and function call to select a random item from that table.
- You'd need record how many NPC's on a given ship were diseased... just a field in the ship object (maybe more if you wanted to do it by dept) and just have the functions which control NPC performance when calculating stuff like ship speed check that field as a modifier when determining how the ship performed.
- You'd need a routiene that generated the NPC's reporting to sick bay for treatment.
- You'd need to create a "Diagnose" ability for the doctor (think of it like a Spell in any Fantasy MMO) to determine what disease the NPC had so it would be treated.
- Maybe a skill check for the doctor applying the medicine to treat the disease successfully.
- Rather then BUY the recipie for a medicine (potion) from a Vendor or FIND it in a chest like most other MMO's do... you'd have the doctor sit at his crafting station with the correct raw materials in hand and use another ability called "Research".... and if he was successfull it would give him the recipie for that medicine.
That's it. Pretty much everything that would be needed to make the Medical Officer proffesion work. I've just given you crude spec's for the system in less then 15 minutes. Heck I could probably even write the "business logic" code to make it work myself....and I'm probably the worst coder there is....haven't coded in 10 years. I just couldn't optimize that code or design the front end. No rocket science here. Pretty much the same systems that are standard in every MMO produced these days... plus a couple small routienes...and 3 Abilities that are probably easier to code then most spells are in a fantasy MMO.
Everything else is just content... in terms of filling up the disease table with different cool sounding disease names and thier difficulty to diagnose/cure..... and filling up the Medicine table with entries for the medicine... the disease it cures... the raw components neccessary...and some difficulty fields for reseaerching and applying (and what graphics to use)..
Well Mel, Lets just agree to disagree and move on as we are kinda high-jacking this thread. I will agree with you that game play is equally if not more important than graphics but I don't really see where what they are proposing is all that bad. Like I said before... let them get the game out in a functional state so we can all play and than add the stuff your talking about over time. They have already said that they plan on doing this so I guess you're just going to have to hope that they can do it right. Just to make it clear I never said your ideas were bad... just too time consuming to still get the game out in a reasonable amount of time. I personally would love to play the STO you describe eventually but would be more than satisfied with playing the game they are proposing at launch until they can get to that part of it.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
Yeah I am getting the same impression. Just like Turbine turned the magnificent LotR lore into a plain WoW clone MMORPG I am afraid Cryptic will do something similar. Maybe not WoW clone but heavily instanced, easily accessible casual MMORPG that plays more like a single player game than an MMORPG. Which, unfourtanetely, seems to the norm these days.
Innovation seems to have gone straight out the window and it seems to be all about rehashing the same thing over and over but with different gfx.
So far I haven't read anything about this game that seems innovative. All I hear is instances, PvP zones, you controling a ship (and not a character, ala Eve) and so on.
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Yeah I am getting the same impression. Just like Turbine turned the magnificent LotR lore into a plain WoW clone MMORPG I am afraid Cryptic will do something similar. Maybe not WoW clone but heavily instanced, easily accessible casual MMORPG that plays more like a single player game than an MMORPG. Which, unfourtanetely, seems to the norm these days.
Innovation seems to have gone straight out the window and it seems to be all about rehashing the same thing over and over but with different gfx.
So far I haven't read anything about this game that seems innovative. All I hear is instances, PvP zones, you controling a ship (and not a character, ala Eve) and so on.
I'm hoping for more than the EVE model. Characters as ships will limit the game greatly.As for instanced and casual, those are good ieas. "Hard core" mindset is a sure way to make sure the game does poorly and instancing allows them to control lag and include better things in the instances. I can agree with you on the game needs to be more than EVE in order to achieve success, but Star Trek has a huge built in fan base. The game needs to be casual, control pvp, and provide a Star Trek feel to it.
You are playing a video game. By definition that means you are not hardcore.
I'm hoping for more than the EVE model. Characters as ships will limit the game greatly.As for instanced and casual, those are good ieas. "Hard core" mindset is a sure way to make sure the game does poorly and instancing allows them to control lag and include better things in the instances. I can agree with you on the game needs to be more than EVE in order to achieve success, but Star Trek has a huge built in fan base. The game needs to be casual, control pvp, and provide a Star Trek feel to it.
Star Trek is anything but "casual" and "light". Everything about it screams hardcore (including the fanbase) so a casual WoW clone will never have a Star Trek feel, just like LOTRO does not have a LotR feel.
Instancing to control lag? Rubbish. There has been tons of MMORPGs which could handle houndreds of players in a confined area. Instancing makes you control lag in a cheap and easy way and your whole attitude of "needs to be casual, control PvP" bla bla is the reason why there are so many failed MMORPGs out there with zero innovation.
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How does Star Trek scream hardcore? Is there some sort of Star Trek community foaming at the mouth to grind endless raids? Some group of red shirts hoping to slaughter people trying to quest. Maybe you're right and can poit me in the direction of these "hardcore" trek fans. How about a link, a magazine article, anything really....
Uncontrolled pvp destroys games. Games that are casual friendly are genrally more successful. There just aren't enough so called "hardcore" players out there for it to be all that economically viable. That's just the way of the world.
You are playing a video game. By definition that means you are not hardcore.
Oh I dont know. Could it be that thousands of fans have several conventions each year where they dress, act and talk like the characters in Star Trek? Or that there are gazzilion sites where everything from Impulse Engine tech to Klingon Language is carefully dissected and analyzed? And, yeah, Star Trek has created a whole LANGUAGE (Klingon). And finally did you know that several technologies are influenced by Star Trek stuff? Like the cellular phone?
If all of those doesnt say hardcore then I dont know what does. Observe that hardcore does not neccessarily mean hardcore PvP. Just that the game should be complex, vast and hard to master. That last thing we need is another WoW clone with casual and themepark type game for John Schmoe who can't be bothered to put in an effort to advance and want everything handed to him on a platter.
As for casual games being successful. Consider that the two of the most successful and well known fantasy IPs EVER (Lotr and D&D) was turned into those themepark, instanced, casualy POS and they now together got less than 5% of the, western, MMORPG market. If that isnt pathetic then I dont know what is. Also WAR, again one of the greated IPs ever, got less than 300k subscribers (and falling), yet another casual, themepark, dumbified MMORPG that trashed yet another awesome IP. And finally, AoC, with estimated subscriber base of 100k, another themepark, super instanced POS MMORPG for yet another great IP.
The market is saturated with casual, themepark, WoW wannabes. We don't need yet another one and specially not from the greatest sci-fi IP, EVER.
My gaming blog
Oh I dont know. Could it be that thousands of fans have several conventions each year where they dress, act and talk like the characters in Star Trek? Or that there are gazzilion sites where everything from Impulse Engine tech to Klingon Language is carefully dissected and analyzed? And, yeah, Star Trek has created a whole LANGUAGE (Klingon). And finally did you know that several technologies are influenced by Star Trek stuff? Like the cellular phone?
If all of those doesnt say hardcore then I dont know what does. Observe that hardcore does not neccessarily mean hardcore PvP. Just that the game should be complex, vast and hard to master. That last thing we need is another WoW clone with casual and themepark type game for John Schmoe who can't be bothered to put in an effort to advance and want everything handed to him on a platter.
As for casual games being successful. Consider that the two of the most successful and well known fantasy IPs EVER (Lotr and D&D) was turned into those themepark, instanced, casualy POS and they now together got less than 5% of the, western, MMORPG market. If that isnt pathetic then I dont know what is. Also WAR, again one of the greated IPs ever, got less than 300k subscribers (and falling), yet another casual, themepark, dumbified MMORPG that trashed yet another awesome IP. And finally, AoC, with estimated subscriber base of 100k, another themepark, super instanced POS MMORPG for yet another great IP.
The market is saturated with casual, themepark, WoW wannabes. We don't need yet another one and specially not from the greatest sci-fi IP, EVER.here, here
lest we mention swg with originally more subs than those 4 put together(so i'm told), turned into a kiddie theme park and lost them all
and what about eve online (the non famous ip)much more 'hardcore' and since the fall of war is second on the list for sub numbers and still growing
1) Instancing is a good bang for your buck way of improving resource usage. Note that "instancing" doesn't have to imply "private instancing" .....just public instancing can make serious improvements for very little cost in terms of game-play.
For instance look at the way LORTO does building interiors. Essentialy every building interior is it's own public instance. Everyone that enters the building gets put in that same instance.... so it doesn't actualy segregate the community. Most people aren't terribly put off by the 3-5 second loading screen.
What it does for the game on the back-end is allow it to treat the building interior and exterior as seperate virtual spaces....That saves the game from having to do all the calculations to track the exact locations movements of all interior objects/mobs/characters for characters who are on the exterior and vice versa...... if no one is occupying that particular instance the server can even unload it saving more resources.
Compare that performance with something like Vanguard which boasted a "seemless" world with no loading screens or seperation between exteriors/interiors and "no instances". VG had huge performance issues because of this.....especialy around "zone bounderies".... they spent a huge amount of resources trying to address them.... for really very little gain.
That's why loading screens are so popular with Developers (even if thier just hidden ones).....because they provide a very good mechanism for optimizing resource usage with little game play costs.
2) Easly accessable and casual friendly by definition, tend to improve a games audience appeal. Note, that these are NOT mutualy exclusive with depth of gameplay. It's tough to do but the best designed games actually offer both. Look at Chess, for instance, the basic rules can be learned in 15 minutes. A casual person can learn and play a game over a lunch break.... and even start to get a feel for some of the strategies. However, no one would call Chess a shallow game. People spend decades learning and mastering strategies for playing the game.
The best games are like that...they can be played on many different levels.... simple and easy to pick up, quick to play for those who want a casual experience....but with a bottomless depth for those who want to delve deeper.
Unfortunately, it seems like Cryptic is going for more like checkers then chess..... but we'll see what happens when they release... hopefully my misgivings will be misplaced.
A well thought out post. I myself don't understand all the hooplah some players have with instances, but then again I haven't played as many MMOs as many have.. I few seconds wait isn't going to kill anyone, especially if it helps lead to a stable game. After experiencing SWG and all it's technical issues which were never fixed, I'm much more inclined towards stability over openess.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
I love the direction Cryptic is going with this game. As if there aren't enough group focused MMOs out there already, even City of Heroes gives groupers a lot more benefits than soloers. You know, lots of people know how and love to socialize outside of the grouping mechanic, maybe you should learn how.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I'm hoping for more than the EVE model. Characters as ships will limit the game greatly.As for instanced and casual, those are good ieas. "Hard core" mindset is a sure way to make sure the game does poorly and instancing allows them to control lag and include better things in the instances. I can agree with you on the game needs to be more than EVE in order to achieve success, but Star Trek has a huge built in fan base. The game needs to be casual, control pvp, and provide a Star Trek feel to it.
Star Trek is anything but "casual" and "light". Everything about it screams hardcore (including the fanbase) so a casual WoW clone will never have a Star Trek feel, just like LOTRO does not have a LotR feel.
Instancing to control lag? Rubbish. There has been tons of MMORPGs which could handle houndreds of players in a confined area. Instancing makes you control lag in a cheap and easy way and your whole attitude of "needs to be casual, control PvP" bla bla is the reason why there are so many failed MMORPGs out there with zero innovation.
Trekkies are hardcore about the lore, not about hardcore, old school MMO mechanics and paradigms. The genre started out hardcore, how is it innovating to keep things hardcore?
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
A well thought out post. I myself don't understand all the hooplah some players have with instances, but then again I haven't played as many MMOs as many have.. I few seconds wait isn't going to kill anyone, especially if it helps lead to a stable game. After experiencing SWG and all it's technical issues which were never fixed, I'm much more inclined towards stability over openess.
Whether or not instancing is good really depends of how its done(or not over done so to speak). I agree with GrumpyMel 100% in his post above that if done right instancing can add a lot to a game. Examples of games that make good use instancing are LoTRO, WoW and some others. In these games they make use of instancing to relieve congestion in high traffic areas without taking players out of the main game world except in dungeons were they do it to make sure everyone can do quests and kill bosses without having to wait in line(like in EQ1). Games with poor use of instancing include GW and PotBS as they way overuse instancing to the point that you feel like your playing a single player game most of the time. It's games like these that have soured gamers toward instancing so now when they here the term they automatically think that a game will use them in the worst possible way.
I like a game that makes good use of instances as it not only adds gameplay stability but also is a lot less headaches for the player. But overuse of instances can be very bad as anything that takes your character out of the main game world for any length of time should be kept to an absolute minimum. The overuse of instances in the main reason games like GW and HG:L are not even considered MMO's by most gamers. This is because your character spends most of their online time in their own little instance and during that time you're basically playing a single player or limited multi-player game.
Bren
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Whether or not instancing is good really depends of how its done(or not over done so to speak). I agree with GrumpyMel 100% in his post above that if done right instancing can add a lot to a game. Examples of games that make good use instancing are LoTRO, WoW and some others. In these games they make use of instancing to relieve congestion in high traffic areas without taking players out of the main game world except in dungeons were they do it to make sure everyone can do quests and kill bosses without having to wait in line(like in EQ1). Games with poor use of instancing include GW and PotBS as they way overuse instancing to the point that you feel like your playing a single player game most of the time. It's games like these that have soured gamers toward instancing so now when they here the term they automatically think that a game will use them in the worst possible way.
I like a game that makes good use of instances as it not only adds gameplay stability but also is a lot less headaches for the player. But overuse of instances can be very bad as anything that takes your character out of the main game world for any length of time should be kept to an absolute minimum. The overuse of instances in the main reason games like GW and HG:L are not even considered MMO's by most gamers. This is because your character spends most of their online time in their own little instance and during that time you're basically playing a single player or limited multi-player game.
Bren
You're right. I never really thought about WOW having instances until it got mentioned. I leveled to 40 before I got bored and I rarely saw instances during that time with the exception of dungeons. The rest of the game was completely open.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Just read the OP and want to say I agree 100%
Give us the option to run a starship with our m8's, I don't and won't buy this if there are no interior options for your starship, I mean Star Trek is 90% about the crew ON the ship, not on a planet.
Oh I dont know. Could it be that thousands of fans have several conventions each year where they dress, act and talk like the characters in Star Trek? Or that there are gazzilion sites where everything from Impulse Engine tech to Klingon Language is carefully dissected and analyzed? And, yeah, Star Trek has created a whole LANGUAGE (Klingon). And finally did you know that several technologies are influenced by Star Trek stuff? Like the cellular phone?
If all of those doesnt say hardcore then I dont know what does. Observe that hardcore does not neccessarily mean hardcore PvP. Just that the game should be complex, vast and hard to master. That last thing we need is another WoW clone with casual and themepark type game for John Schmoe who can't be bothered to put in an effort to advance and want everything handed to him on a platter.
As for casual games being successful. Consider that the two of the most successful and well known fantasy IPs EVER (Lotr and D&D) was turned into those themepark, instanced, casualy POS and they now together got less than 5% of the, western, MMORPG market. If that isnt pathetic then I dont know what is. Also WAR, again one of the greated IPs ever, got less than 300k subscribers (and falling), yet another casual, themepark, dumbified MMORPG that trashed yet another awesome IP. And finally, AoC, with estimated subscriber base of 100k, another themepark, super instanced POS MMORPG for yet another great IP.
The market is saturated with casual, themepark, WoW wannabes. We don't need yet another one and specially not from the greatest sci-fi IP, EVER.here, here
lest we mention swg with originally more subs than those 4 put together(so i'm told), turned into a kiddie theme park and lost them all
and what about eve online (the non famous ip)much more 'hardcore' and since the fall of war is second on the list for sub numbers and still growing
Second on the popularity list of a hardcore oriented website. Subscription numbers for Eve don't even come close to WoW, LOTRO or Free Realms or Wizard 101, all of which are much more casual games.
Trekkies are hardcore about their IP, but that doesn't even remotely mean they will enjoy hardcore mechanics in a Star Trek MMO. As a matter of fact, any trekkie will be quick to point out that combat is a method of last resort and will be irritated by the combat focus of STO.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Casual, Hardcore, Fans, Instances, PvP... Its all comepletely meaningless if the true essesense of Star Trek is not present.
"...to explore strange new worlds, too seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before!"
Where is that in this game? I don't know how better to put it. A Star Trek MMO should have us doing those things and all the other things that the series and movies have shown us over the years. Exploration seems to be present, but it aslo smacks of a single player mapquest pleasure cruise. Why not allow players to form crews on a starship and go off on thier own 5 year missions? If that not in from the start then how can you really create an immersive experience for the rest of what should be in game. Away missions, player driven story, galactic politics, etc.
Perhaps I'm asking for too much from todays creative minds and technology. However, when I think Star Trek and MMO, I'm thinking that I become a character in one of the series, and I get to do the things I watch Kirk and Picard do. Instead I get to upgrade my ship/avatar until I have enough firepower to not die quickly in a instanced pvp starscape that might not even be in three dimensions. Don't get me wrong, some sweet 3d space combat action set in the Star Trek universe would be awesome. I just can't accept that this is what a ST MMO boils down to at all.
I'll wait and see, and hope.
I read (and sometimes post) in the STO community forums. I read the website for STO. So far, there really is little known about the actual gameplay. What is known is there is going to be a lot of customisation of both players and ships in the game. There will be PvP but not open PvP. There will be some form of exploration. There will be space and ground combat. What is not known are the specifics. Until those become a little more clear, all the rants about how STO is not going to live up to expectations are pretty well moot.
Let's party like it is 1863!
Thank you Gruug
I think I'll do the same.
..its a guideline, not a rule, as players we must remember: Its a Game.
Well said. I will say that I have been disappointed with the lack of updates. TOR seems to have a new update every other week while this game hasn't given me anything new since that character creation video. It's gotten to the point that I no longer post on the official site because there isn't anything left to talk about.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Well said. I will say that I have been disappointed with the lack of updates. TOR seems to have a new update every other week while this game hasn't given me anything new since that character creation video. It's gotten to the point that I no longer post on the official site because there isn't anything left to talk about.
Cryptic has been putting most of its efforts into launching Champions Online (due September 1). I expect that within a month or two of that launch that you will see a lot more activity over on the STO side, including an update of the website and forums. In fact, the guy in charge of the Champions project is moving his office over (actually downstairs) to the STO offices after launch of Champions. So, things WILL start to happen.
Let's party like it is 1863!
Why is that a problem? Solo-content is what players want and that is what they are getting.