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How will a new V.A.T. tax affect the US mmorpg markets
phoenixxus
Member UncommonPosts: 27
A New V.A.T tax is being batted around in congress. The V.A.T tax is new for the U.S. but not for many of our friends who live in other countries they have lived with it for years and have addapted to it. But in the U.S. how will it effect the gaming industry. What is a V.A.T tax it is a tax of any service or item of value. So an example you play WOW and pay your 14.99 per month. Now it will be 14.99+ V.A.T. I belive in europe it is 17% but now sure. I am sure someone from europe can chime in with the true amount. I dislike the V.A.T. i like most others U.S. famliies like on a budget and gaming online falls into the extra category ,but if there is less monty for extra will guess i will be getting out my only off line games. What do you think??
Comments
you should count you self lucky you dont like in denmark. Our VAT (called Moms in danish) is at 25%, and that is on top of the 40% A-tax (the lowest tax level. we have 3), and other taxes (like AM which is at 8%).....
We own too many guns for our leaders to attempt this.
But as mentioned, people adapt to new taxes, and I don't see many folks in Europe not playing MMO's because they pay a VAT tax on them.
MIght be a drop at first, but in the end, MMO's are still a super cheap form of entertainment and not likely to cause much pain.
Now, upgrading your PC's to play them, that's where the real expense lies IMO.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yea OP its like Kyleran says. We have this tax in europe, and we still buy and play alot of mmos. If you can afford to maintain a concurrent computer today (i have a Core-i7 with gb of ddr3 ram, with a nvidia Gforce 285 Zotac Amp! graphics card my self) you can afford subscribing a mmo. Most people in the western world with a computer can scratch up 10-25$ each months, if its something they really want to do.
UPDATE
hehe well theres something we are best at www.libraryspot.com/know/highesttax.htm
Here's an article about it from the Washington Post. One thing about value added taxes is that they are collected at each step in the production-distribution chain (e.g. manufacturing, wholesale, retail) and only assessed against the "value" (read "price increase") added at each step. This does have the effect of raising the ultimate cost to consumers. In many cases, participants in the production-distribution chain are eligible for credits, so many people feel as though the consumer is the only one really burdened by the tax. It's important to note than VATs in many countries are higher than what we are accustomed to seeing in our sales taxes.
VATs are a regressive tax, just like normal sales taxes. The fact that a tax is regressive in and of itself doesn't make it bad, even though some people may throw the term around in a pejorative sense. However, it can represent more of a burden for some people than for others, and as a result some governments using the taxes have opted for lower VATs on necessities and higher VATs on luxury items.
I think it will be too controversial here in the US to be passed any time soon.
V.A.T. tax will hit the end consumer hard. Since it's a layered tax applied to all stages of production, a business hit with the tax will pass the cost on to the consumer. Companies don't pay taxes, they simply pass it along with the cost of the product.
It boogles the mind that anyone would support giving the government anymore money considering how poorly they manage the money they do get. Look at the state of Social Security, Medicaid, and Medicare. Someday the government will take it all, and give you the state run MMORPG.
Just remeber...
Obama swore not to tax the middle/lower class!
Because it's not like the cigarette tax affected any lower/middle class. Nor will an internet tax...
...wait nvm.
youtube.com/gcidogmeat
What i took from our saviors speech the other day was that we are pretty much screwed for the rest of our lives but our grandchildren will live in the land of milk and honey do to our sacrifice. A little tax here a little tax there, pretty soon we will be at the coveted socialist dream of everyone paying 40-50%.
If it does come down to it, MMOs will likely incorporate the tax into the fee schedule. INstead of $15/month the company will say $16/month ...or perhaps even use it as an excuse to bump their prices "Due to the new V.A T tax, our subscription price has increased to $20/month ...its not our fault)
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
OMFG!!! You people do realize that the Revolution was started in part by just this kind of multi-step taxes imposed by the british government on most goods?
<prepares to exercise her right to bear arms>
Yeah but having one of the best educational and health system in the world has it's cost.
I would take the quality of life of any middle class Denmark citizen "any day of the week" before an american one. Tax means nothing. You got to take everything into consideration and look at the final result. Survey says quality of like in Denmark is among the best, while US is one of the worst of the civilized world.
So root for Obama to implement this, and hopefully this money will repair your school and give some health care coverage to the most needed in your society.
BTW: I live in canada, and our Tax rate is at 12% and i really don't care so long as i don't have to mortgage my house every time i catch the flu.
Creativity : The ability to transcend traditional ideas, rules, patterns, relationships, or the like, and to create meaningful new ideas, forms, methods or interpretations; using originality, progressiveness, or imagination.
Yeah but having one of the best educational and health system in the world has it's cost.
I would take the quality of life of any middle class Denmark citizen "any day of the week" before an american one. Tax means nothing. You got to take everything into consideration and look at the final result. Survey says quality of like in Denmark is among the best, while US is one of the worst of the civilized world.
So root for Obama to implement this, and hopefully this money will repair your school and give some health care coverage to the most needed in your society.
BTW: I live in canada, and our Tax rate is at 12% and i really don't care so long as i don't have to mortgage my house every time i catch the flu.
I live in Ohio, in terms of the states, we rank like 6th in taxes, and if I took all the taxes I already have than it is easily 12%, and I get damn little for it.
Yeah but having one of the best educational and health system in the world has it's cost.
I would take the quality of life of any middle class Denmark citizen "any day of the week" before an american one. Tax means nothing. You got to take everything into consideration and look at the final result. Survey says quality of like in Denmark is among the best, while US is one of the worst of the civilized world.
So root for Obama to implement this, and hopefully this money will repair your school and give some health care coverage to the most needed in your society.
BTW: I live in canada, and our Tax rate is at 12% and i really don't care so long as i don't have to mortgage my house every time i catch the flu.
I live in Ohio, in terms of the states, we rank like 6th in taxes, and if I took all the taxes I already have than it is easily 12%, and I get damn little for it.
That's my point. The problem is not the tax itself, but who you elect to manage it. The concept in itself works in "many" countries. So ask yourself why it doesn't in yours, and take actions accordingly.
Creativity : The ability to transcend traditional ideas, rules, patterns, relationships, or the like, and to create meaningful new ideas, forms, methods or interpretations; using originality, progressiveness, or imagination.
Yeah but having one of the best educational and health system in the world has it's cost.
I would take the quality of life of any middle class Denmark citizen "any day of the week" before an american one. Tax means nothing. You got to take everything into consideration and look at the final result. Survey says quality of like in Denmark is among the best, while US is one of the worst of the civilized world.
So root for Obama to implement this, and hopefully this money will repair your school and give some health care coverage to the most needed in your society.
BTW: I live in canada, and our Tax rate is at 12% and i really don't care so long as i don't have to mortgage my house every time i catch the flu.
I live in Ohio, in terms of the states, we rank like 6th in taxes, and if I took all the taxes I already have than it is easily 12%, and I get damn little for it.
That's my point. The problem is not the tax itself, but who you elect to manage it. The concept in itself works in "many" countries. So ask yourself why it doesn't in yours, and take actions accordingly.
Fine, I'm moving to Canada, eh. (Sorry about the eh, couldn't stop myself)
'Oh Canada!'
Most mmorpgs will adapt the price and say 14,99 VAT included. At least when I pay for lotro or EQ2 i remember seeing all the proces VAT included. Anyway if you can afford 14.99 you probably can afford 17.
The amount of VAT you pay usually vary depending on country and item, in spain for example we have:
Common items, (mmorpgs for example) 16%
Reduced Items 7% (Higienic stuff)
Basic needs 4% Basic stuff like bread, milk, health stuff and so.
OMFG!!! You people do realize that the Revolution was started in part by just this kind of multi-step taxes imposed by the british government on most goods?
<prepares to exercise her right to bear arms>
You seem to assume that the issue was the nature of the tax, rather than something about the procedure used to impose it. Your statement appears to imply that you think the sentiment expressed in the phrase "No taxation without representation" was less important to colonial dissatisfaction than the nature of the tax. That theory isn't really supported by most historical texts.
Go ahead and bare your arms, though. Get some sun
Yeah but having one of the best educational and health system in the world has it's cost.
I would take the quality of life of any middle class Denmark citizen "any day of the week" before an american one. Tax means nothing. You got to take everything into consideration and look at the final result. Survey says quality of like in Denmark is among the best, while US is one of the worst of the civilized world.
So root for Obama to implement this, and hopefully this money will repair your school and give some health care coverage to the most needed in your society.
BTW: I live in canada, and our Tax rate is at 12% and i really don't care so long as i don't have to mortgage my house every time i catch the flu.
I lived in Copenhagen for 6 months and have lived in Texas for 8 years... Texas, wins...
OMFG!!! You people do realize that the Revolution was started in part by just this kind of multi-step taxes imposed by the british government on most goods?
<prepares to exercise her right to bear arms>
You seem to assume that the issue was the nature of the tax, rather than something about the procedure used to impose it. Your statement appears to imply that you think the sentiment expressed in the phrase "No taxation without representation" was less important to colonial dissatisfaction than the nature of the tax. That theory isn't really supported by most historical texts.
Go ahead and bare your arms, though. Get some sun
And you seem to assume that I am an idiot, I didn't spout something about the lack of representation, not that I am getting a good measure of that. I was referring to the fact that each stage of production through processing to deliver was taxed, it was taxed from step one to step 200, and that made the colonies a poor set of states that were taxed MASSIVELY in comparison to their British Isle counterparts. And for what the textbooks say, I don't put a whole lot of faith in the propoganda fed to middle schoolers. The simple fact is the revolution was started about taxes, about money that was being taken out of their pockets without their consent, and that is what in essence this is, an increase in prices for.. what? To fund GM, for bigger government for a war no one wants to fight. Some might argue that it's just another drop in the bucket of taxes, but the simple fact is the founding fathers didn't like this means of taxation and neither do I.
Yeah but having one of the best educational and health system in the world has it's cost.
I would take the quality of life of any middle class Denmark citizen "any day of the week" before an american one. Tax means nothing. You got to take everything into consideration and look at the final result. Survey says quality of like in Denmark is among the best, while US is one of the worst of the civilized world.
So root for Obama to implement this, and hopefully this money will repair your school and give some health care coverage to the most needed in your society.
BTW: I live in canada, and our Tax rate is at 12% and i really don't care so long as i don't have to mortgage my house every time i catch the flu.
I live in Ohio, in terms of the states, we rank like 6th in taxes, and if I took all the taxes I already have than it is easily 12%, and I get damn little for it.
You are now a 60% stake holder in Government Motors. Sell your stock...oh...nevermind.
--------
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"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
Yeah but having one of the best educational and health system in the world has it's cost.
I would take the quality of life of any middle class Denmark citizen "any day of the week" before an american one. Tax means nothing. You got to take everything into consideration and look at the final result. Survey says quality of like in Denmark is among the best, while US is one of the worst of the civilized world.
So root for Obama to implement this, and hopefully this money will repair your school and give some health care coverage to the most needed in your society.
BTW: I live in canada, and our Tax rate is at 12% and i really don't care so long as i don't have to mortgage my house every time i catch the flu.
I live in Ohio, in terms of the states, we rank like 6th in taxes, and if I took all the taxes I already have than it is easily 12%, and I get damn little for it.
You are now a 60% stake holder in Government Motors. Sell your stock...oh...nevermind.
lol yes how true. Now we can go to the Bank of Obama and borrow to purchase a Government Motors green machine.
OMFG!!! You people do realize that the Revolution was started in part by just this kind of multi-step taxes imposed by the british government on most goods?
<prepares to exercise her right to bear arms>
You seem to assume that the issue was the nature of the tax, rather than something about the procedure used to impose it. Your statement appears to imply that you think the sentiment expressed in the phrase "No taxation without representation" was less important to colonial dissatisfaction than the nature of the tax. That theory isn't really supported by most historical texts.
Go ahead and bare your arms, though. Get some sun
And you seem to assume that I am an idiot, I didn't spout something about the lack of representation, not that I am getting a good measure of that. I was referring to the fact that each stage of production through processing to deliver was taxed, it was taxed from step one to step 200, and that made the colonies a poor set of states that were taxed MASSIVELY in comparison to their British Isle counterparts. And for what the textbooks say, I don't put a whole lot of faith in the propoganda fed to middle schoolers. The simple fact is the revolution was started about taxes, about money that was being taken out of their pockets without their consent, and that is what in essence this is, an increase in prices for.. what? To fund GM, for bigger government for a war no one wants to fight. Some might argue that it's just another drop in the bucket of taxes, but the simple fact is the founding fathers didn't like this means of taxation and neither do I.
Your last statement essentially proves my point that you're either conflating or confusing issues. You're assuming that the nature of the tax was at issue, but there's really not a lot of evidence to support the proposition that the nature of the tax was more important than other issues, including the lack of representation that the colonies had in the decision to impose the tax, as well as the issue that the tax was levied to support (raising revenue from the colonies to pay for British troops stationed in the colonies after the 7 Years' War.) There may have been a portion of the population that was ideologically opposed to the concept of a VAT tax, but I haven't seen any evidence to support the proposition that the nature of the tax as value added, rather than some other form of tax, was a motivating factor in the revolution. You yourself state other issues in your argument, e.g. "taxed MASSIVELY" and "without their consent" that don't really have much to do with the tax being a value added one.
If you just don't like value added taxes, that's ok. A lot of people don't. That's part of why I don't think it will pass here in the US any time soon. I just think it's disingenuous to argue that dissatisfaction with the nature of a value added tax was the cause of the American Revolution. Here's a brief item from history.org and a small article from publicbookshelf.com that might help. You may notice that neither reference the terms "VAT" or "value added." They do however point to other sources of dissatisfaction with the tax.
It may be pointless for me to point out that the Stamp Tax was a direct tax (as pointed out by John Dickinson in his writings in opposition to Britain's policies) rather than an indirect tax like a VAT, since you seem hell bent on making the analogy regardless of its validity.
Yeah but having one of the best educational and health system in the world has it's cost.
I would take the quality of life of any middle class Denmark citizen "any day of the week" before an american one. Tax means nothing. You got to take everything into consideration and look at the final result. Survey says quality of like in Denmark is among the best, while US is one of the worst of the civilized world.
So root for Obama to implement this, and hopefully this money will repair your school and give some health care coverage to the most needed in your society.
BTW: I live in canada, and our Tax rate is at 12% and i really don't care so long as i don't have to mortgage my house every time i catch the flu.
Do you realize the amount of control the government has over you when the control your ACCESS to health care?
As far as education goes, we have been pooring money down the drain at all levels for our education system for years, and it still isn't up to par. More money isn't going to fix it. Heck they don't want to fix it, they want you to be a good little serf.
Europeans don't mind because they have been serfs for hundreds of years.
Whatever, you obviously aren't going to admit I have a point without a but, and, if in front of it, I stated an opinion and you are going to lunge after me no matter what I say, so whatever, I am not going to get into a flaming match with you over something. My statement is essence is true and you are trying to quibble over the symantics and no one will ever win such an arguement so I will neither continue this fight or force others using this thread to contend with a massive quotation blocks in front of the posts..
Yeah but having one of the best educational and health system in the world has it's cost.
I would take the quality of life of any middle class Denmark citizen "any day of the week" before an american one. Tax means nothing. You got to take everything into consideration and look at the final result. Survey says quality of like in Denmark is among the best, while US is one of the worst of the civilized world.
So root for Obama to implement this, and hopefully this money will repair your school and give some health care coverage to the most needed in your society.
BTW: I live in canada, and our Tax rate is at 12% and i really don't care so long as i don't have to mortgage my house every time i catch the flu.
i know. I wouldent like anywere ells (why i wrote in #4 hehe yea well, because our of our high taxes we dont have to fear poverty and theres free healthcare for everyone, we get PAIED to go to collage / university etc. I earn enough money to buy the stuff i want + a substansial extra for a nestegg.)
It was also what i was trying to illustrate, though i can see from your comment that i failed :-/
Yeah but having one of the best educational and health system in the world has it's cost.
I would take the quality of life of any middle class Denmark citizen "any day of the week" before an american one. Tax means nothing. You got to take everything into consideration and look at the final result. Survey says quality of like in Denmark is among the best, while US is one of the worst of the civilized world.
So root for Obama to implement this, and hopefully this money will repair your school and give some health care coverage to the most needed in your society.
BTW: I live in canada, and our Tax rate is at 12% and i really don't care so long as i don't have to mortgage my house every time i catch the flu.
Do you realize the amount of control the government has over you when the control your ACCESS to health care?
As far as education goes, we have been pooring money down the drain at all levels for our education system for years, and it still isn't up to par. More money isn't going to fix it. Heck they don't want to fix it, they want you to be a good little serf.
Europeans don't mind because they have been serfs for hundreds of years.
Heheh, so very true.
V.A.T. will not be passed in this country.
*cocks shotgun*
Get the boys ready, Shiva!
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-
I think this thread in general is interesting... because it discusses many points without really looking at the issue. Even to the point of people who flame other posters because of some "ideal" understanding as opposed to reality.
I don't think people mind paying taxes for things to operate the way they should. I do think people mind paying for special interest projects and corruption among other things.
So my issue with any new taxes is...
If you really had an independant team come in and look what all the services cost.... minus all the BS. Then you look at the tax money which is coming in. You will (in america) find out we have plenty of taxes already.
So the issue isn't 17% of $14.95... its the fact that they want you to pay another tax... to fund more pork and political corruption.
Beyond that... some states already tax subscriptions. I know for WoW at least right in their subscription fields it notes that some states do this.. and I know some people in the US that get that tax on their subscription. So if you add a federal tax on top of that state tax for this "service" ... that service is now being taxed twice.... this would also be an issue as far as I'm concerned.
So that's it for me... its not about this paticular tax (if they did it). Its about the fact they already have plenty of "tax money" and waste so much of it.. that they need a new source for more money to waste.
Then I saw the derailment into a discussion of the Boston Tea party for some reason...
I mean if you are talking about taxation and representation.... When the majority of americans are against something (ie: Tarp) and the representitives do it anyway... who were they representing? So if the discussion is going to spin off into another stream... just because you have a "representitive" does NOT mean they are representing the feelings of the people who elected them.
Or you could spin off into the government looting social security (a program that had the ability to fund its self...) but was looted to the point it can no longer do that. Do you see the government repaying the money they borrowed from Tax Payers?
Or do you see the government talking about more ways to borrow errr tax money...
In the end it comes down to the same friggin thing... They could do what needs to be done with the tax money they take in now. They just have to give up all the things they shouldn't have been doing with our tax money to begin with.