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What do YOU mean when YOU use the term "Sandbox"
madeux
Member Posts: 1,786
There seem to be a lot of petty arguments about whether a particular game can accurately be described as a "Sandbox".
How do you define it? How do you see it most often used incorrectly?
Comments
I dont think the term should really apply to any MMO.....There isnt a game out there where you can go anywhere you want and do whatever you want, not without consequences.......Eve, Uo, Ryzom, and the other games that claim they are sandboxes are not......Heck the first time I ever logged into UO the second I left Brittain I was killed by 3 other players....how is that a sandbox?? First dungeon I saw there was a dragon that immediately killed me...Nope cant go there either.....Ryzom you can do what you want as long as what you want involves digging or fighting low level mobs......You cant just wander off very far or you die......Same with Eve.....I cant just log into eve and take my ship out for a cruise anywhere.....Youd be dead in 5 minutes.......
If games were truly like a sandbox they would be no fun....Theres a reason why children leave the sandbox after a short time.....YOu dont see the bigger kids playing in the sandbox and you surely dont see adults in it........
I use to be all into the whole sandbox hype but I have come to accept that there is no such thing as a Sandbox MMO. If there is then where is it and what makes it a one?
So, because other players can kill you, then the game cannot be a sandbox? I'm failing to see the sense in that one.
There seem to be a lot of petty arguments about whether a particular game can accurately be described as a "Sandbox".
How do you define it?
A game where you are not placed into pre-defined classes, and where the content is mostly generated by players as opposed to developers.
Games that are skill-based as opposed to class based, and where all (or almost all) items are player created = Sandbox IMO.
is this thread " what is a sandbox?" i have yet to see any kind of answer .. i dont really know what it means myself and have never used the term .. but if i was to guess what it means .......remeber playing in a sandbox... you could turn it into anything you wanted basiclly .. a car track , a soilders field ,a empty planet and so on ..i probally have no idea what im talking about .. but its defintion would seem to be that you can leave anytime and come back to play with multiple options . rather it be pvp or pve the idea would seem to have mutliple moptions too the skill/classes . so as sandbox games go it would depend upon with "box" or style you decided to play in ,, from examples above if i was playing in my sandbox and i decided to make a car track but charlie across the way makes a empty planet in his box ... you and any of the others can go freely from box to box and back .. and what you do in the box itself would effect that box in many diffrent way depending on your actions ... .. again i have no idea i just taking a shot in the dark
Where does this definition come from? Link plz
A sandbox is many different things to many different people, it is and will always be hard to get a “this is a sand box” because people tend to focus in on specific parts instead of the general meaning.
In general terms a sandbox game is an online world where you must decide how to make your way in, whether that way is digging in the earth, chopping down trees, hammering iron, carving wood, the study of magic or the art of warfare, etc. You are not set on a predetermined path A to B to C ect. that everyone else before you has traveled created by a developer. You are not force to play someone else’s definition of a class.
Most people that desire a sandbox design are looking for the freedom to create their own character and adventures. What would the world be like if there were only 8 to 10 different types of people and there were a limited number of paths you could choose from?
I never really liked the term because it just doesn't exist. Also as someone said before, the sandbox is kind of boring in real life. Limited amount of sand, limited things you can do, closed confined space, I never really liked the analogy, lol.
Personally I just want a non linear game that gives me a lot of choices. Fighting, crafting, exploring, quests or not, epic and small, housing, pvp or not, and a lot of other things I cannot think of atm. I suppose that could be called sandbox.
I've always found saying a sandbox is doing anything you want a bit absurd. That is chaos. Also, you have to define anything because some things are just not possible in the world and people can whine saying it isn't a sandbox.
Think of real life as what you would call a sandbox. Can you do anything? No. Many things not possible. If it is possible, their can be consequences. So if I were to apply that to an MMO, obviously a lot more is possible, but if you just start killing people, then you have to face the consequences.
I've heard people call a sandbox player made content which I disagree with. Interaction is a huge part (hence it being an MMO), but really the game needs a lot of tools (content) in place for people to use. There is going to be an underlying theme in any game, open ended or not. Even GTA which people consider a sandbox isn't. It just gives a lot of choices, non linear if you will, but still has an ultimate path it leads to through the story. it just allows for the player to do so much more which is what I want in an MMO.
People can keep their small sandbox and limited tools, hehe.
I use sandbox the way the rest of the gaming industry does, which is, a game in which you can ignore the the objectives of the game and still play, like GTA, Fallout, Oblivion, Spiderman.
So by definition all MMOs, that I have played at least, are sandboxes, because you can ignore the objectives, be they RvR, quests, whatever and still play. Whether you can level or not from ignoring the objectives I don't think matters.
However people use the term sandbox differently in terms of MMOs. Some use it to mean the game has FFA PvP, some people use it to mean it is skill based, some use it to mean the game is a socio-political simulation, some use it to mean a game where you can make or do anything, some simply a game with tons of things to do and some all or some of the above. So it has no real clear definition when used in the special way it is for MMOs.
Personally I think it is a largely useless category, and people should either use it to mean the industry standard definition or not at all, instead say what you mean, instead of saying Eve is a sandbox, say it is a space themed, skill based, economic and political sim, much more descriptive.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
There is no way to really "define" sandbox. Games just generally have an aura of non-linearity and freeformness about them and get the sandbox tag. UO got it mainly because you COULD pretty much do what you wanted, but you couldn't do everything, and the same with SWG.
Some good starting points:
Large game area with players able to shape it
Skill based system ( although class based can work, as some sandbox MUDs do it )
Ability to choose your progression path, not shoehorned into being the same as everyone else
Sandbox games, games where you make content and game just provides bondaries. Might be bit lack of content and other problems can't realy say.
On other hand someone making The Sandbox MMO would be intresting idea, Make sand castles and other stuff ;D Just for laughts ;D
Do you have a link to sources for that? The reason I ask is because you can ignore the objectives of almost ANY computer game, so that's an odd defintion. Bartle, Koster and many others have often defined it as a balanced non-narrative environment where the developers create tools that allow the players to build in or manipulate the game world. Actually, Bartle seems to use balanced and sandbox interchangeably, often citing EVE Online as an example of it. Here's a link to one of his more recent presnetations:
http://mud.co.uk/richard/IMGDC2009.pdf
To answer the OP's question, when *I* use the term Sandbox MMO, I am referring to a game comprised of a balanced non-linear environment where the developers create tools that allow the players to build in or manipulate the game world.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
That sounds like a great idea for an MMO. Various pails, moulds, shovels, etc to build the world around you out of sand.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
For those of you that dont know what a sanbox game is here comes the full Explanation.
Sandbox comes from the defenition that the Developers make a BOX enviroment and let the players loose inside to do what they feel like.
1. Sandbox games dont have Classes, or the Classes they have change like a tree design.. everyone starts at the root but as you progress you chose diffrent branches... so it would be like a 4-6-8-12 so at max lvl you would have 12 diffrent paths or more. Ór they use skills and you can take the skills that you want to learn like old UO and EVE. You can learn anything you want and the Devs set no limit on what you want to be ingame.
Example theme park WoW have 10 classes vs EvE that have as many classes or rolls that the players themself can come up with, you can be a Hacker, drugdealer, transporter, blockade runner, Fighter pilot, Mercenary, Miner, Manafacturer, Trader or Wormhole explorer, Pos Operator, Tackler, Moon miner, scanner, Bounty hunter or a Pirate. Fraction warfare fighter, Misson runner the list goes on and on whaterver you come up with and there is a market for you can bee. that is a true Sandbox.
2. Sandbox are player driven, within the game world the players make or break the game, this is also the reason why many Devs are scared of the Sandbox concept. What happens if the players do things to our game that we did not intend or want to happen etc.
Example theme park WoWs endgame you can only effect one thing your personal gear, reputation, and skills, this is safe for the developers. You grind the latest dungeon and then you wait for the Devs to release another one so you can grind for more items. In EvE on the other hand you can controll part of the gameworld and bar that off to other players, you can build your own starbases (citys so to speak) that can be destroyed by other players. And you can see on the map what player fractions hold what space. The ungoing political struggle is all about players vs players. If two player made fractions goes to war Neutral partys can benefit from this by selling them weapons and ships, and ammo just like in IRL. You can steal stuff from others and 90% of all the items that are used are player constructed. That means some Player Corperations(guilds) might be arms makers while others make a living selling ships. EvE functions as close to IRL as they could make it.
3 Sanbox are often Ingame money driven just like Monopoly or other strategic board games. they are more about planing and sheeming then running premade quests/raids. They are about the Power of free will, and the entertainment dosent lie in what the Games has to offer you but what you have to offer the game... Your are the sole KING of your own destiny. Also most of them have real loss in them.
Example in theme park wow the worst thing that can ever happen to you is that you need to go and repair your gear. In EvE you can lose all your gear and you can actually be killed and lose skills if you dont have money for a Clone. Also in Linage 2 you deleveld when you died and lost your stuff. that meant you could kill other players and make them go down in lvl. For the theme park mmoer to lose 4-5 six lvls if they got killed a few times and then drop thier Epic sword would probably kill the game for them.
4.Some last words. Sandbox is for the hardcore gamers that like to plan and actually have a way to impact the world they Inhabbit. its about real loss and sacrifice, its about grind and its most of the time not fun, but more like a 9-5 jobb. People who play them do it for the satisfaction of actually accomplishing somthing that changes the gameworld they play in.
Example if you would embark on climbing mount Everest you would not have that mush fun forcing yourself up the mountain. You might even get a few frost bites and have to amputate a toe or two. But when you Stand there untop of the Summit nothing and I mean nothing in the world will beat that feeling. The truly hardcore want a challenge and they dont want to be entertained as they wage war in a virtual reality. They want to play against serious people that also are there becausse they mean business.
Well, from what I can gather from people's definition, the term "sandbox" is defined with ideas of offering viable choices to the game-play at all aspect, so choice is the major component for the definition of "sandbox".
Personally I defined the term long while ago in one of the post I made in a thread about sandbox.
The following definition are what I used for specifically for MMORPG (copied and paste from the post I wrote long ago...).
1.) Dynamic world - where what you, the player, do matter and affect the world. May it be through the combat system, crafting system, or political system.
2.) Freedom in character design - which means you can choose your own playstyle, and design your character as such. If you want, you can go from a combat character to non-combat character, or if you want, you can be just a crafter and have other supply you with materials and in return, you give them items which help on their own game play.
3.) Community-based game play - where most, if not all, systems focus on the ability of players coming together to build the game world, and these systems give players the abilities to creates an evolving world rather than just a game.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
That's a really interesting point. It's hard to tell whether that is a defining feature of sandbox MMOs or if it's just one of the results of the players being affect their environment and, as a result, the others around them.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
All these represent Sandbox to me:
A) Skill based: Character is created by choosing freely from all skills in game or combinding many premade classes. Also you are free to chance course with your character at anytime and skill him up for totally different play style. So even though most players end up very similar specs (FOTMs) there still is clear freedom to make a unigue character that noone else has.
C) Item Decay: It gives the feeling things you are using are real + as little bonus it helps to keep player run economy alive.
D) Crafters are needed and most equippement in game are created by players.
E) Player Housing
F) Player Cities
G) FFA PvP or Partial PvP ie if player attacks against faction A that enables PvP between him and all faction A members.
h) Full Loot.
Examples that i mentioned might not all be in a game that i find Sandboxy but most of them would.
Sandbox = freedom to play the game the way I want within the world that the gaming company has created. I play within X boundaries, but they let me essentially play in a style that I like, without the linear or cookie-cutter method that 8/9 out of 10 MMO's uses.
What happens when a gaming company doesn't make a player 'paint by numbers' in their universe?
What happens when a gaming company gives the player/community the tools to make their own mess?
I think some of you read too deeply into the word. It is simply a way to catagorize a subgenre. It's the opposite of linear in the definition of MMO's.
Linear MMOs have a planned out progression, areas to go to at certain levels, tiered armor, ie: WoW, EQ.
Sandbox MMOs let you progress at your leasure, usually letting you roam freely. They give you the toys, you play with them, ie: UO, EVE.
That's really your only true difference. Both styles can have city sieges, pvp, economies, communities, pve, raids, events. Linear MMOs are usually bigger than sandbox MMOs simply because of the definitions. One is layed out for you and one is not. I'm not saying any sub genre is harder than the other because in some cases that simply isnt true but, for people just jumping into a game, sandbox MMOs are very unforgiving.
I get the definition from the developers useage of the word, like when in a interview they say they allow for a sandbox mode so the player can turn off the objectives and explore, or when a game journalist uses it. And this is largely based on GTA.
The clearest definition I have heard comes from this article
"The term refers to a mode of play in which you can fool around in a game’s world without being required to meet a particular objective. By far the best-known sandbox modes are in the later Grand Theft Auto games, contributing greatly to their popularity. Sandbox mode is normally used to describe special modes within otherwise goal-oriented games, not open-ended games like SimCity. Sandbox modes also sometimes afford emergent behavior, events arising in a game’s world that were not planned or predicted by the designer."
So the game would be required to be an open world by defacto to be sandbox. The difference between sandbox and not being, Ninja Gaiden is a linear game, since the only thing you can do is go through the levels and nothing else, so when you play you complete objectives, if you don't you can't play. Mercenaries for example is a sandbox, because it has a story, but you don't have to do it, you could just drive around cause a big mess and kill random guys.
Having tools to build onto or alter the game world could be in a sandbox, but is not needed I don't think. I also don't think sandbox is a genre, more like a type of world design.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
The best defition I can give to a sandbox or any decent person for that matter can be compiled in just 2 words:
EVE Online
So many people have different opinions on what a sandbox MMO i've started just calling them "Open ended" games.
Basically a MMO with more freedom in caracter progression and customization and a emphesis on the social aspects of a MMO through RP and Exploration.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
My definition of Sandbox is the right one! :P
But seriously, when I say sandbox, I mean an MMO that gives you the world, tools and game mechanics to forge your own path through the game, build your own character, and generally live any virtual life you want within the counfounds of the game's setting.
This means there are combat and non-combat player classes. I can run around and kill people/mobs or I don't even have to ever pick up a weapon because there are other things to do (crafter, doctor, scientist, politician, etc). There are skills that you can dabble in with your character in order to make a unique build that fits your goal rather than static classes that feel like you are square peg being hammered through a round hole. The economy is player run, and crafting/resource gathering is very rich and interesting. Player/item customization should also be very flexible so that we can feel like the individuals we are. The game world itself should be alive and interactive enough that scripted events aren't even necessary except very special occasions. The game should encourage problem solving and exploration by not holding my hand to every item, quest, location or puzzle.
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I'm not completely against quests or instances, but I think they are too big a part of these games now. Indeed they ARE the games now and all the other stuff has been fading away. Rather than making the game world come to life, we have all these scripted events that are just repeated by each player, instead of unique world-driven adventures.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
The best defition I can give to a sandbox or any decent person for that matter can be compiled in just 2 words:
EVE Online
The pre-nge Star Wars Galaxies is a much better example for most people than EVE. It's hard for most MMO gamers to understand what is going on in EVE due to the fact that your character is essentially a ship in space and whatnot, and not some biped character running around on a planet. If you go look at the feature set of SWG the time of it's original release, you will learn what a sandbox game is. I'm sure there are other examples as well though.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Where does this definition come from? Link plz
Ok. Here you go.
Do you understand the meaning of "IMO"? If so, please pay attention. If not, click on the link to learn.